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On February 20 2012 07:24 Font wrote:
Jumping into MOBA games and trying to carry is not a smart idea because you will not learn or get better, you will, on the other hand, get frustrated because you lose all the time.
Well, I had never played DotA or HoN before and I'm trying to get good at Dragon Knight atm, and I have a 80% win rate... >.>
Being good with (strength) carries seems to be the easiest thing to me : you camp your lane, ask for wards or buy them yourself, you take care not to be ganked, stack and farm ancients, TP in close fights, and boom, when teamfights come you have Satanic and BKB and you can watch their whole team melt before you while being close to immortal.
Whereas when I find myself trying to play support or gankers I have a much harder time with decision making : should I defend this tower or is it better not to try a 1v2 for it ? Which lane should I gank ? Where do I have to ward ? Which camps should I stack for my carry ? Should I harass softly or combo and try to secure a lane kill ?
THIS is hard to do when you're a newcomer to DotA.
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I don't know I think you guys are isolating the hero a bit too much. If you look at it in terms of a 5v5 all the "dodging" you are doing purely for one hero can be looked at as zone control. I don't see how it's complacency. He's dictating your movements which could allow for the other heroes on his team to initiate. I didn't think of force staffs, that sounds smart. Must think of that item more, it's so versatile it's scary.
I just think saying he partially relies on complacency is wrong, his spells don't all have to land for them to be good. The zoning he is able to do makes up for missing a spell I feel.
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On February 20 2012 18:59 Numy wrote:
I don't know I think you guys are isolating the hero a bit too much. If you look at it in terms of a 5v5 all the "dodging" you are doing purely for one hero can be looked at as zone control. I don't see how it's complacency. He's dictating your movements which could allow for the other heroes on his team to initiate. I didn't think of force staffs, that sounds smart. Must think of that item more, it's so versatile it's scary.
I just think saying he partially relies on complacency is wrong, his spells don't all have to land for them to be good. The zoning he is able to do makes up for missing a spell I feel.
Very very good point! His ability to zone is ridiculous and finding ways around that is tough. BKB's help, force staffs help, and good initiations help. I can't think of anything really to deal with his ability to control an area so effectively late game. He can launch a majority of his spells from so far away and he is oh so mobile. He goes down when focused but the problem really is getting to him. I guess the logical option is to just maximize the space your team occupies when engaging so he can only shut down 1-2 heroes at a time but that also leads to other positioning problems that could be deadly. I really need to watch a few invoker games to get a feel for what people to do defeat him. I am currently at a loss.
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On February 20 2012 18:26 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2012 16:36 Zlasher wrote:
Honestly I think Sven is a terrible hero, VS, SK, even heroes without a stun but a slow like Tide and Veno are significantly more useful Those are honestly the wrong heroes to compare him to. The best hero to compare him to is and always has been Chaos Knight--who is an extremely strong ganking carry in DotA 1 atm. Chaos Knight has a better stun for single targets, and has vastly better overall mobility/utility with Reality Rift. Sven has an AoE stun, provides a team buff, and has an easier time getting into a farm tempo if his ganking doesn't turn out well (particularly with the possibility of getting Cleave earlier). Similar heroes with different skillsets geared toward different situations. The 6.73 buffs to Sven were also pretty significant IMO, and he probably actually deserves some attention. Ya lets compare him to a hero thats not even in the game...
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United Kingdom10823 Posts
On February 20 2012 19:47 Hoban wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2012 18:59 Numy wrote:
I don't know I think you guys are isolating the hero a bit too much. If you look at it in terms of a 5v5 all the "dodging" you are doing purely for one hero can be looked at as zone control. I don't see how it's complacency. He's dictating your movements which could allow for the other heroes on his team to initiate. I didn't think of force staffs, that sounds smart. Must think of that item more, it's so versatile it's scary.
I just think saying he partially relies on complacency is wrong, his spells don't all have to land for them to be good. The zoning he is able to do makes up for missing a spell I feel. Very very good point! His ability to zone is ridiculous and finding ways around that is tough. BKB's help, force staffs help, and good initiations help. I can't think of anything really to deal with his ability to control an area so effectively late game. He can launch a majority of his spells from so far away and he is oh so mobile. He goes down when focused but the problem really is getting to him. I guess the logical option is to just maximize the space your team occupies when engaging so he can only shut down 1-2 heroes at a time but that also leads to other positioning problems that could be deadly. I really need to watch a few invoker games to get a feel for what people to do defeat him. I am currently at a loss.
I wanna say that RIki is one of the better counter to him, just to prevent him from casting his spells off when he's in a smoke. Invoker trying to get out of that should give enough time for a team to initiate and take him down, but to get everything spot on would require some pretty good co-ordination.
It'll be more interesting as more of the core strength heroes that we are expecting to come soon will be implemented (Chaos Knight comes to mind)
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United Kingdom10823 Posts
Lancer with a diffusal would be an option too, with the crazy mana drain that you could get out of it. Siren as well to a point, pending the right items
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On February 20 2012 21:49 Hassybaby wrote:
Lancer with a diffusal would be an option too, with the crazy mana drain that you could get out of it. Siren as well to a point, pending the right items
I could see those working, along with a spectre w/ diffusal to have that ability to instantly jump on him. The problem is then you need to design your entire team around those carries because they need it to be decent. Almost all the games I watch, Invoker is either first round ban or first round pick. It is pretty easy to say "we aren't going to pick/ban invoker, our opponents will very likely take him, we can design a strategy to counter that." I think that is how you have to approach the situation, by predicting the picks in a way that you have a strategy already prepared to counter the other teams big heroes/play makers. I think EG vs DeeDee game 1 showed this off pretty well. DeeDee had Invoker and a super teamfight comp so EG spent a majority of their time split pushing. I think that is a very solid counter to invoker. The more angles you come at him from, the weaker his zone control is.
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United Kingdom10823 Posts
Negative armour/amp damage would be an interesting idea as well, to get a decent amount of burst on him. Slardar could possibly be a good pick since you can track him during ghost walk if he has his ulti on. Then its a matter of nuking or chain stuns
Thinking back though, how was Invoker handled in Dota 1?
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On February 20 2012 18:59 Numy wrote:
I don't know I think you guys are isolating the hero a bit too much. If you look at it in terms of a 5v5 all the "dodging" you are doing purely for one hero can be looked at as zone control. I don't see how it's complacency. He's dictating your movements which could allow for the other heroes on his team to initiate. I didn't think of force staffs, that sounds smart. Must think of that item more, it's so versatile it's scary.
I just think saying he partially relies on complacency is wrong, his spells don't all have to land for them to be good. The zoning he is able to do makes up for missing a spell I feel.
I might have overstated things a bit, my main point is that I disagree with the claim you presented.
On February 20 2012 18:35 Numy wrote:
deafening blast, ice wall, emp, cold snap [...] they rely purely on the skill of the invoker.
To say that the opposing team doesn't have a say in how effective your abilities are going to be, when you're dealing with skillshot abilities (one of which has a charge-up) I find silly.
Now as you mentioned, even though someone dodges a spell, or deals with it so to speak, it can benefit you in other ways - but the fact of the matter is that they dodged it, and we'll assume that this is preferably to being hit, thus the effectiveness didn't rely solely on the skill of the invoker.
So I guess the point you're trying to make, is that even though you do everything in your power to mitigate invokers strength in a teamfight, his spells will have done more than enough damage (zoning etc.), merely because they have been cast, and that the effort you put into dealing with him is disproportional to the reduction of invokers effectiveness. Which I can't really refute or confirm since I haven't played with/against/watched him enough to make a qualified statement
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Well you stated you can dodge these things but in a reality of a teamfight you can't really dodge a deafening blast or tornado that close. I mean if it's 1v1 sure you can but those aren't realistic situations. Pre teamfight sure you can dodge a tornado/emp but those other spells don't get used pre teamfights hence why I stated that it relies purely on the skill of the invoker since you can't really do much beside disable him in a teamfight to stop those from landing I think. Controling position isn't entirely up to you since it's also where your enemy is so you can't sit around dodging invokers spells mid teamfight.
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Tornado emp meteor combo is very hard to dodge against a good invoker. The worst part is that if the invoker has aghanims and lvl17 alacrity, cold snap and icewall will surely follow that combo. In a teamfight a good invoker casts at least 5 powerfull spells.
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Are replays working atm ? Wanted to watch a game, when I press "Download replay" the dl starts but immediately stops.
edit : only does it on one of my games.
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On February 20 2012 14:14 Ack1027 wrote:
Not sure why you A) Spread incorrect information and B) Compare two heroes that are nothing alike.
6.67 - Wave of Terror now reduces HP instead of dealing damage (same overall HP loss, but now does not disable clarity/dagger/etc)
VS doesn't cancel shit.
She doesn't need to take farm to pick up chick or wards. Just not dying will give you plenty of money for those.
Sven is a monster with force staff/treads/bkb. He doesn't even need dagger early-mid game.
In competitive play he is a situational pick, but is not outside the realm of a real game. People are experimenting with getting cleave a bit earlier and its pretty monster.
oh wtf.... they changed my dear VS... fuck that........
u need 1 level in E regardless to get the bonus MS for sven.
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Netherlands45349 Posts
maybe OT but Dark Seer Vacuum+Sven's hammer=fun times
well then again Dark Seer + x is funtimes
god I hate that hero
unless I play him/have him on my team.
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FREEAGLELAND26781 Posts
"u know at that point ds could literally 1v5 u guys"
"you mean 6v5?"
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United Kingdom10823 Posts
On February 21 2012 04:56 flamewheel wrote:
"u know at that point ds could literally 1v5 u guys"
"you mean 6v5?"
6? you mean 13v5. Real me get 2 walls
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oh god I'm dying of laughter while listening/watching to WehSing's stream
so good, especially when he was looking for cheese
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Netherlands45349 Posts
Lol SingSing's shop was bugged
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/VH1QU.png)
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United Kingdom31255 Posts
If only he could actually buy multiple aegis
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EPT
