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Don't misunderstand my posts, this is clearly a good find and could be something really fun and feeling good to use. Every players that know that trick should use it and any "competent" players will use it.
There are some limitations on games to control the usage of attacks/skills and letting them stay balanceable, ressource cost, cooldown and something often hidden as general cooldown(GCD WoW type) or animation time of skill/attack(Diablo 2, Aion type).
In WoW you cant use a skill if you triggered the general cooldown wait.
In Aion you can't do anything melee, skill or sometime even move if you are in an animation(yeah you could cancel some with jumpshot as ranger and such and it feels like the game is broken).
In the Diablo series there is no GCD because some things are done faster than others, and you can influence those stats with attack speed for the melee attack animation, and with casting speed for the skill animations.
If it was just the melee animation that wasn't on the same "waiting level" of the the skill animation it would be no problem for me, throwing skills while meleeing is fine. Throwing another skill everytime you use a skill before you're supposed to be able to is just a flaw in the gameplay and goes against the base design of the game and would make the balance of this a real nightmare.
Balance in PvP will not be a priority of the game so they don't care about that, but this is just a hole in their limitations that just change in the game in every aspect and will make people kill monsters way faster and in a non balanceable/manageable way between classes.
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Wow that makes me really want to play the beta so much more! I could probably spend hours focusing on the animation canceling alone, maybe doing runs with no gear, and having animation canceling as the primary means of defeating mobs.
TL, keep doing what you do best!
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Gotta be out of your fucking mind if you think this is intended, and/or will remain. Come on. You're talking about the same company that made absolutely no effort to keep obscure little nuances in SC2 on the grounds that everything you can/should be able to do, should be clear and easily understood.
That level of denial deserves the incoming disappointment.
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United States7166 Posts
yeah as sad as it is, he's probably right. Unless Blizzard makes this or something like this an announced feature, which I find unlikely, they're just going to remove it. Plus it also gives them a lot more work to do in terms of rebalancing skills. The community would really have to be in an uproar for them to consider bringing it back, and judging from what I've seen on other sites, it's mostly a mixed opinion
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On October 05 2011 07:13 Bibdy wrote:
Gotta be out of your fucking mind if you think this is intended, and/or will remain. Come on. You're talking about the same company that made absolutely no effort to keep obscure little nuances in SC2 on the grounds that everything you can/should be able to do, should be clear and easily understood.
Well I think youre right. But then again this game isn't suppose to be competitive at all so they just might not care about it. Not counting on it.
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That find is awesome.
Reminds me of the game Super Smash Bros Melee where bugs like this
made the skill scale incredible deep and until today that keeps getting higher
in that game.
I really hope stuff like this stays in the game.
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Sounds like something that would just get tedious after a few days of play.
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United States7166 Posts
you mean like ...............normal diablo gameplay?
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booo i first thought it would be something hard to do like in the good old times animation delay bypassing by moving.
hope they will add the typical 0.1 second delay after using a skill, atleast to casters, for melee ranged this is quiet okay, but meeeeh could be way harder to do, thats no challenge.
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On October 05 2011 07:13 Bibdy wrote:
Gotta be out of your fucking mind if you think this is intended, and/or will remain. Come on. You're talking about the same company that made absolutely no effort to keep obscure little nuances in SC2 on the grounds that everything you can/should be able to do, should be clear and easily understood.
That level of denial deserves the incoming disappointment.
It's not too far fetched. Like I mentioned before, Blizzard is intentionally restricting the types of moves that are allowed on Mouse Buttons as a result of "animations". Perhaps meaning attacks that they don't want to be cancelled or allow cancelling with.
It's a different team than SC2. I personally know some of the D3 dev team and have done my part to try and keep this in the game. I figure it's also up to the community to make sure popular opinion keeps something like this in.
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This is an awesome find and I hope Blizzard keeps it in the game. I haven't posted on TL in a while, but I just wanted to show my support for this feature/bug. Little things like that add to the skill ceiling of the game, and that can't be bad. It reminds me of a while back when someone mentioned the monk played a little bit like a street fighter character. With animation canceling that notion is even more conceivable. The combat in Diablo 3 is already brilliant, but with animation canceling, shit just got more real.
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Being a game developer myself, I can say this is probably an intentional addition.
Reason being, the abilities are done thru different action states. If you did NOT want an attack to be canceled, you simply make it so that the attack can not be performed in a current state. For certain abilities to cancel another, there has to be a specific exception allowing the second attack to be performed. In the code for the "Attack" state, you have to tell it what you want to happen during the state - you have to manually add code stating that the controller needs to check Hotkeys during the state for your abilities to work at all.
I'll give you another example. When making a character controller, the primary thing on your mind is what is going to be cancelable in to each other. The function that gets your movement input is disabled in certain situations - such as when you attack. As you can see, this is working perfectly - if a character is moving the movement is canceled when performing an ability. The place you put the function to get your movement input is the SAME PLACE that you will typically put the hotkey input, that way everything is disabled at the same time. That means that if certain abilities (or States) are allowed, you have to manually add an exception in the "Attack State" area,saying to still get hotkey input.
Taking this in to consideration, it's highly unlikely this was a mistake.
I also must stress, what abilities can be canceled in to another is the FIRST THING on your mind when creating character controllers. It's tested from the beginning, with every state you add to the game. Movement states, hit-stun states, interruption states, attack states, ability states.... those are added one at a time and MUST be tested upon implementation. For any of these to cancel one state but not cancel all of them has to explicitly be created that way.
The places you typically have to look for bugs in controllers is with jumping states or hit stun states - because often times a developer will miss a certain variable when Jumping that will make a portion of an attack state still happen - Jumping or getting hit has to MANUALLY cancel what you are doing and replace it wit hsomething else. But attack states are different, they only perform actions and are not coded to manually cancel anything - they only have to disable movement & hotkey input - if they ARE canceling something it requires special coding to do so.
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On October 05 2011 08:57 Spyridon wrote:
Being a game developer myself, I can say this is probably an intentional addition.
Reason being, the abilities are done thru different action states. If you did NOT want an attack to be canceled, you simply make it so that the attack can not be performed in a current state. For certain abilities to cancel another, there has to be a specific exception allowing the second attack to be performed. In the code for the "Attack" state, you have to tell it what you want to happen during the state - you have to manually add code stating that the controller needs to check Hotkeys during the state for your abilities to work at all.
I'll give you another example. When making a character controller, the primary thing on your mind is what is going to be cancelable in to each other. The function that gets your movement input is disabled in certain situations - such as when you attack. As you can see, this is working perfectly - if a character is moving the movement is canceled when performing an ability. The place you put the function to get your movement input is the SAME PLACE that you will typically put the hotkey input, that way everything is disabled at the same time. That means that if certain abilities (or States) are allowed, you have to manually add an exception in the "Attack State" area,saying to still get hotkey input.
Taking this in to consideration, it's highly unlikely this was a mistake.
I also must stress, what abilities can be canceled in to another is the FIRST THING on your mind when creating character controllers. It's tested from the beginning, with every state you add to the game. Movement states, hit-stun states, interruption states, attack states, ability states.... those are added one at a time and MUST be tested upon implementation. For any of these to cancel one state but not cancel all of them has to explicitly be created that way.
The places you typically have to look for bugs in controllers is with jumping states or hit stun states - because often times a developer will miss a certain variable when Jumping that will make a portion of an attack state still happen - Jumping or getting hit has to MANUALLY cancel what you are doing and replace it wit hsomething else. But attack states are different, they only perform actions and are not coded to manually cancel anything - they only have to disable movement & hotkey input - if they ARE canceling something it requires special coding to do so.
Fellow game dev here. Yep. The only thing I would add is that while they may have intentionally added cancelling for certain moves. Perhaps it wasn't intended to be added for ALL the moves. :D
The cryptic conditions in which you can or can't cancel seem geared towards this being intentional for moves that they'd never consider you to put on your mouse.
If this did get fixed, I imagine you'll see Fury Users/Spirit Users/Hatred Users able to cancel the Generators, but not the other way around.
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On October 05 2011 09:08 Phunkapotamus wrote:
Fellow game dev here. Yep. The only thing I would add is that while they may have intentionally added cancelling for certain moves. Perhaps it wasn't intended to be added for ALL the moves. :D
Agreed. But the reason I'm fairly sure that it was intended for most (if not all) moves is that it works on the variety of characters. Considering it's on the variety of chars, it seems likely that they may have added it for a few too many moves, but to make that mistake it must have been intended for a large variety of them and slipped thru to too many. (hope I'm making sense lol)
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It seems that blizzard has moved the bug forum post over to the feedback forum, suggesting that this is intended and will be left in the game.
Hopefully they didn't overlook the whole post and miss the bug that locks your character in place.
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This would pretty much make dual Rage generators required to play Barbs at the highest level, which saddens me because I wanted to play a style that didn't include that. Some appropriate rules on what can cancel into what would be good though (I very much like the idea of generator into spender or anything into cooldown, so you could say stun, buff, leap out, etc... between attacks with minimal downtime for your spammables).
I do have a question though, Phunk. You mention mouse into keys. Is it actually mouse into keys or LMB/RMB into 1-5? If you re-bind 1-5 to mouse buttons (say, alt, shift or ctrl + mouse buttons), does it still work?
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It only works with LMB / RMB.
If you re-bind something to MMB for instance, it does not work.
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I meant what you are able to cancel with, not which skills you can cancel, so you didn't actually answer the question I asked. I'm also not sure if your answer actually makes any sense because you said it only works with LMB/RMB but then you mention re-binding something, but you can't re-bind LMB and RMB.
Are you saying that if you re-bind 1 to MMB and try to cancel LMB with skill 1 on MMB, it won't work (assuming the rest of the rules are true, i.e. the skill on 1 is not bound to RMB)?
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I haven't tested any of this with the Hotkeys or Mouse Buttons rebound to anything other than their defaults.
For more clarity, the LMB/RMB are the skills to the right of the potion in this screenshot: http://robogilardi.com/Hitboxes/Hitboxes01.jpg
"Hotkeys" are the 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5 you see.
If you rebind any of the skills to something else, I'm not sure what happens. I can test, but I'm at work. Robo could probably help out quicker.
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i love finding things like this in games. a way to be more effective than the obvious...much like how BXR made halo 2 so fun
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EPT
