|
Hey there. My brother and I have been sitting on this for a while. Assuming this technique is a feature and not a bug, you'll definitely want to take advantage of it. The gains are huge, especially for slow weapons.
I discovered this by accident while cancelling the animation of the Witch Doctor's Firebomb attack. We have a bug report already submitted to Blizzard just in case this isn't supposed to be in the game.
Aside from some bugs that lock up your character state, all signs point to this being a feature. If not, we need to make sure this stays, because this type of thing can really raise the skill ceiling for this game (and it sorely needs it with how easy it's shaping up to be). This is your clarion call TL. Stuff is about to get awesome after the vid. Do your part and make sure this stays in the game!
+ Show Spoiler +
Video Notes:
00m00s - Show basic repeating Cleave
00m07s - Show basic repeating Frenzy
00m14s - Cancel Cleave into Frenzy
00m26s - Cancelling 2nd attack of Crippling Wave 3rd attack of Fists of Thunder
00m38s - Cancel Autoattack into 1st attack of Fists of Thunder
00m50s - Show basic repeating Dashing Strike speed
00m58s - Show Dashing Strike cancelled into Fists of Thunder repeat
01m08s - 1st Attack of Deadly Reach cancelled into 2nd attack of Fists of Thunder, followed by 3rd attack of Deadly Reach
01m14s - Cancel Spectral Blade into Electrocute. Also shows bug where you can get double-electrocute sometimes.
01m39s - Cancel Spectral Blade into Shock Pulse.
01m48s - Cancel Spectral Blade into Magic Missile.
01m57s - Cancel Spectral Blade into Energy Twister
02m05s- Show Basic Hungering Arrow & Auto Attack
02m12s - Cancel Auto Attack into Evasive Fire.
02m35s - Cancel Grenades into Hungering Arrow. Also cancel auto attack into Hungering Arrow
02m56s - Showcase various bugs that happen when trying to cancel some moves
1) Animations can be canceled giving the ability to cast at a greatly increased rate.
2) Electrocute (And possibly other spells) will cast twice instead of once
3) Canceling out of channeled spells will lock your character until your mana/hate/etc.. is depleted. (This is the only buggy part)
Link to B.net bug report: http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/3279043269
Even if this is a bug, we need to tell Blizzard that stuff like this is awesome and should stay in the game! Put some feedback on the post! Note - RobotGilardi is my brother. I did not steal the bug report and post it here, I wrote it for him and he posted it on b.net :D
Legend
LMB = Left Mouse Button
RMB = Right Mouse Button
Mouse Button = Either LMB or RMB
Hotkey = Skills bound to the hotkey bar, but not in either LMB or RMB. Default keys are 1-6.
Animation Cancelling Rules
1) Attacks bound to LMB or RMB may be cancelled into attacks bound on a Hotkey.
2) You may not cancel with an attack found bound to either Mouse Button.
3) A cancellable attack may appear on both a Mouse Button and a Hotkey. However, this does not allow it to cancel other moves since it violates rule #2.
4) Channeled spells may not cancel into or out of properly without messing up the character state
5) The same attack cannot cancel into itself, as this would require violating rule #2.
6) Autoattacks can never be the canceller since they can only appear on a Mouse Button.
How To
1) Bind an attack to LMB. (Ex: Cleave)
2) Bind another, different attack to a Hotkey (Ex. Bash @ Keyboard key:1). Make sure this second attack does not appear on a Mouse Button. (Rule #2)
3) Attack with Cleave
4) After Cleave’s damage has been dealt, press the hotkey for the 2nd attack.
What does this mean to me?
Cancelling moves can negate recovery time, and improve damage dealt by attacking more often.
To understand how this can work in your favor, you need to understand how attacks work.
In fighting games, an attack has 4 phases:
1) Startup - Attack animation has started, but no damage has been dealt yet.
2) Active - Attack is active and dealing damage. This phase begins when the first frame at which the attack’s hitboxes become active.
3) Recovery - Attack damage has completed and the character is animating back to a neutral state. The character is unable to perform actions during this phase. This phase begins at the first frame in which the attack stops dealing damage, and lasts until the character is able to perform another action.
4) Cooldown (optional) - This is the refractory period in which the character cannot perform the attack again. In Diablo 3, only some moves have cooldowns.
Diablo 3’s attacks conform to these phases. Using the Barbarian’s Cleave as an example:
1) Startup - The Barbarian rears his weapon back.
2) Active - The red swipe effect of the weapon cleaving appears, and the attack deals damage
3) Recovery - The Barbarian animates back to neutral.
4) Cooldown - There is no cooldown on this move. It is based on weapon speed, which factors into speed of the first 3 states.
By cancelling an attack, you skip its Recovery state.
If you cancel an attack on the same frame that the Attack phase begins, then the cancelled attack will still do all of its damage. The cancelled attack will also play out all of its entire Attack phase even as you transition into phases of a different attack.
Therefore: To maximize damage. Cancel moves with long recovery, but quick startup into fast moves
Clarification: You do NOT need to perform this on the exact frame. This is not a "Just Frame" as it would be called in the fight game world. Most cancellable attacks may be cancelled at any time. cancelling after or during the first Active frame will allow both attacks to deal damage.
“Hey! That’s not a DPS increase! I can tell because I’m a scientist!”
Nope. It’s a substantial increase that improves the slower your weapon is. Lets use this example:
Given:
Cleave and Bash both take 1 second to complete, meaning you can attack once every second.
You’re cancelling Cleave into Bash.
Cleave’s Active phase starts at 0.5 seconds into the attack and that you’re able to consistently cancel at that point.
Lets map the time it takes to do 5 Cleaves and 5 Bashes the normal way:
0.0 Seconds: Cleave(1)
1.0 Seconds: Bash(1)
2.0 Seconds: Cleave(2)
3.0 Seconds: Bash(2)
4.0 Seconds: Cleave(3)
5.0 Seconds: Bash(3)
6.0 Seconds: Cleave(4)
7.0 Seconds: Bash(4)
8.0 Seconds: Cleave(5)
9.0 Seconds: Bash(5)
10.0 Seconds: DONE - 10 Attacks in 10 Seconds
Now with cancelling:
0.0 Seconds: Cleave(1)
0.5 Seconds: Bash(1)
1.5 Seconds: Cleave(2)
2.0 Seconds: Bash(2)
3.0 Seconds: Cleave(3)
3.5 Seconds: Bash(3)
4.5 Seconds: Cleave(4)
5.0 Seconds: Bash(4)
6.0 Seconds: Cleave(5)
6.5 Seconds: Bash(5)
7.5 Seconds: DONE - 10 Attacks in 7.5 Seconds
Applications
Some characters have better applications than others. I hope that runes change up the animations of certain moves to offer better possibilities. Right now the Barbarian and Monk can make the most use out of the trick.
Barbarian
Cleave cancelled into Frenzy with Dual Wield: If you have fast weapons, your Frenzy comes out and finishes VERY fast, so you can essentially enjoy Frenzy stacks for free.
Any Rage Generator cancelled into Hammer of the Ancients or Weapon Throw: Classic 2for1 application.
Demon Hunter
Autoattack Cancelled into a Rage Spender: With the "Fundamentals" Passive, your hatred can regenerate as you use your abilities.
Vault into Anything: You can cancel vault mid-animation. Sometimes it screws up and teleports you to the final destination. Sometimes it cuts it short. Useful for a quick PVP dodge probably.
Grenades into Anything. Grenades have a long Recovery Phase. Skip it.
Monk
All Spirit Generators into other spirit generators. Best application is Crippling Wave on a Mouse Button since it has the slowest Recovery phase and benefits the most from being cancelled.
Exploding Palm is a great canceller because of its speed.
Dashing Strike into Autoattack or Exploding Palm to cancel the recovery after teleport.
Lashing Tail Kick - Cancel the recovery.
Witch Doctor
He doesn't have many uses since most of his attacks don't come out quick enough to really justify spamming weaveable attacks. I've only found 2 good applications.
Zombie Charger cancelled into Poison Frogs or vice versa.
Haunt cancelled into anything- This is actually pretty good. Haunt emits almost immediately as the Startup phase is very short. Most of Haunt's casting time is on the Recovery Phase. Best I've found is Haunt into Firebomb or Haunt into Poison Frogs. Lets you weave your 3 Active haunts into the battlefield as you kill with other moves.
Wizard
Most of her's cancellables suck. The spellcasters can't really make great use of this.
She can cancel Arcane Orb and Twister, but the recovery gains aren't that great.
The best gain is on Spectral Blades, as shown in the video. This attack has almost no Startup phase, and is entirely Recovery based. So, you can cancel this into whatever. Melee-Sorc FTW.
If I was going to cancel Orb or Twister, I'd cancel into Magic Missile since it wont' cost anything at higher levels. A basic 2for1.
|
Wow nice find! This is actually really cool. I can't see this being intentional, if Blizzard doesn't fix this I would be aghast. If they leave as is then that would make me a happy camper :D This would actually increase customization between skill choices.
|
United States7166 Posts
this is awesome, sick find!
I really hope Blizzard does not "fix" this. It's cool bugs like this that can make all the difference in the world, and make the game more engaging/fun for some players. Sometimes Blizzard should just leave bugs in, like "hold lurker" and mutalisk stacking in Brood War
|
I could see this being tricky to balance around. But I like the idea of Roman Cancelling in Diablo 3.
|
|
|
just note some of the really fast canceling stuff can only be done on macro programs... cuz normally u cant do it that fast
|
On October 04 2011 14:38 Lokian wrote:
just note some of the really fast canceling stuff can only be done on macro programs... cuz normally u cant do it that fast
Since you cancel a mouse attack into a keyboard attack you can put them together as close as you like.
|
I hightly doubt this is intentional but I hope they leave it in with some fixes nonetheless!
Great find, I could see this bug becoming very problematic for some skill combos when difficulty ramps up and we're mashing keys and clicking our mouse buttons furiously.
|
The things that lead me to believe that this is intentional:
1) They restrict the abilities that you can bind to a Mouse Button and a Hotkey, stating that "animations" are the reason. Meaning, their criteria for cancelling is intentional.
2) This is a necessary skill for some escape skills. They want some moves to have priority. Leap Attack is an escape ability- they want you to be able to interrupt what you're doing and use it.
3) They've pretty much said the Monk part of this is intentional. Which is great, because this is where you get the greatest benefit.
Lokian:
This is really easy to do. You don't need tools. Though, tools would make it perfectly efficient based on your attack speeds.
I should say, the easiest way to do this is via click & hold on the mouse button.
1) Pick your move, hold shift, or click a monster and hold down the Mouse Button.
2) When you feel it's an OK time to cancel for that particular move, hit your Hotkey ability. Continue holding the Mouse Button and you'll return to the Mouse Button attack instantly and automatically
The only timing you'l need is just to rhythmically press a Hotkey. Watch the video for clarification.
|
On October 04 2011 14:52 Sc2Requiem wrote:
I hightly doubt this is intentional but I hope they leave it in with some fixes nonetheless!
Great find, I could see this bug becoming very problematic for some skill combos when difficulty ramps up and we're mashing keys and clicking our mouse buttons furiously.
I think there is a chance they will fix it as a bug and then bring it back somehow as a feature.
|
Oh, one more thing. This is what I call the 1337 combo:
As monk, Pick Crippling Wave on a Mouse Button, and Exploding Palm on a Hotkey.
Click and Hold The Mouse Button to perform Crippling Wave Combo #1
Cancel into Exploding Palm Combo #2
Continue holding mouse button to automatically perform Crippling Wave Finishing Combo #3
CANCEL THE FINISHING MOVE with Exploding Palm Combo #1
Continue holding mouse button to automatically perform Crippling Wave Combo #2
Cancel into Exploding Palm Finishing Combo #3
This was not shown in the video. And it's literally a 50% attackspeed increase. It's insane.
|
Do it, show me more possibilities that are neat.
|
this is why i love Team liquid xD... hope they fix the bug but left the animation cancelling mechanic so PvP could be a little bit more competitive 
|
All I can think when I see the monk repeatedly dash cancel into an attack is Smash Brothers baby. Imagine wavedash style mechanic in D3. Muahahahaha.
|
If this sticks around I say we call in Phunkin' in honor of the discoverer.
|
This is a good find and small things like this needs to be in the game to raise the skill ceiling. This isn't game breaking at all but in PvP this can be really cool and one way of separating players by skill.
|
it's probably not intended with all those buggy ones around
|
On October 04 2011 16:03 poor newb wrote:
it's probably not intended with all those buggy ones around
I'm hopeful.
There are a lot of bugs where the character can get stuck in a particular state. This just happens to be one of them.
The channeled spells are a special case in that their Active phase loops for the duration of the channel. I imagine that the bugs are client-side, where the character state just gets confused. It seems to prevent you from leaving Active state if you attempt to cancel the channel RIGHT as the attack transitions between Startup and Active phase. It's a pretty consistent lockup if you have good timing.
Weird though that you can't cancel the Startup phase of channeled attacks, but you can cancel the Recovery phase. There's no reason to cancel the Recovery phase anyway, since it's so fast on channeled spells.
From this I've got a good hunch that Disintegrate and Firebats are using the same code.
Edited original post with clarification about the timing. It's not a Just Frame.
|
I remember back in the early days Blizz said they wanted the monk to be able to pull off combos based on player hotkey timings.
|
Ah yes, frames. Take me back to d2.
|
this is nothing new.
This is an exploit, to be straightforward.
the problem is, each skill acts like a projectile.
they are fired from the getgo, and are still in action and if you press esc and attack (rightclick) you dont have to wait till the projectile time is done.
This typical exploit is best demonstrated in EdenEternal, I have already mastered this technique.
with this technique I was able to hit 10 times while other ppl hit me 5.
sad to see Diablo 3 has such exploitable engine and skill system. They should've made skill do damage overtime while casting skill so you cannot cancle and still do full damage. which is what you call "projectile-like" system skill.
|
Well, all that animation cancelling in DotA is going to be useful here apparently! 
|
animation cancelling has been in games for years, it's a huge part of making a game feel "responsive" and not sluggish, and very hard to avoid having it in your game.
|
On October 04 2011 19:19 mordk wrote:Well, all that animation cancelling in DotA is going to be useful here apparently!
my thoughts exactly
|
nice SF calling
|
nice, this means that PvP requires more technical skill now
|
This remind me of a game "Cabal Online" i used to play in Warrior class and Force Blader class you can do exact same technique to increase dps by cancelling animation.
i hope blizzard doesn't change this and keep it in the game. Just hope blizzard don't make the same mistake Gunz developer did.
|
I'm curious how this will/can change effective builds. It seems like the best move is to have 2 attacks to alternate between more-so than 1 main attack with a bunch of situational skills supporting it.
|
Amazing find, and an awesome featured if it was to stay.
However I think blizzard will nerf this according to their "our new games are no brainers" policy.
|
On October 04 2011 23:26 Xkalibert wrote:
This remind me of a game "Cabal Online" i used to play in Warrior class and Force Blader class you can do exact same technique to increase dps by cancelling animation.
i hope blizzard doesn't change this and keep it in the game. Just hope blizzard don't make the same mistake Gunz developer did.
lol you played cabal?
I played too, I was #1 magic force shielder =)
one of the first in server with full magic amp +8 i think
\
|
On October 04 2011 16:32 strikerz200 wrote:
this is nothing new.
This is an exploit, to be straightforward.
the problem is, each skill acts like a projectile.
they are fired from the getgo, and are still in action and if you press esc and attack (rightclick) you dont have to wait till the projectile time is done.
This typical exploit is best demonstrated in EdenEternal, I have already mastered this technique.
with this technique I was able to hit 10 times while other ppl hit me 5.
sad to see Diablo 3 has such exploitable engine and skill system. They should've made skill do damage overtime while casting skill so you cannot cancle and still do full damage. which is what you call "projectile-like" system skill.
No, this is wrong.
They are not fired from the getgo. If you cancel an attack prior to the actual damage, or "Active" phase, it will not follow through.
It does depend on the attack though. Some attacks come out instantly, and some come out late. Try it with the Witch Doctor's Firebomb and see.
On October 04 2011 19:19 mordk wrote:
Well, all that animation cancelling in DotA is going to be useful here apparently!
This is different than DOTA Animation Cancelling. In DOTA, it didn't increase your attack speed. The game allowed you to initiate a different action once the Active phase of the attack had finished. You could cancel the recovery animation with a move command.
This is different in that you can cancel at any time with another attack. It "Resets the Swing Timer" as some moves in League of Legends do.
The fact is though, I did find this when trying to do DOTA style animation cancelling with the Witch Doctor's Firebomb. He is so slow in throwing the damn thing that I wanted to speed it up somehow.
I'll be updating the original post with some good uses of the trick.
|
On October 05 2011 01:52 Phunkapotamus wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2011 19:19 mordk wrote:
Well, all that animation cancelling in DotA is going to be useful here apparently!
This is different than DOTA Animation Cancelling. In DOTA, it didn't increase your attack speed. The game allowed you to initiate a different action once the Active phase of the attack had finished. You could cancel the recovery animation with a move command. This is different in that you can cancel at any time with another attack. It "Resets the Swing Timer" as some moves in League of Legends do. The fact is though, I did find this when trying to do DOTA style animation cancelling with the Witch Doctor's Firebomb. He is so slow in throwing the damn thing that I wanted to speed it up somehow. I'll be updating the original post with some good uses of the trick.
It's very similar to orb walking though which DOES increase your attack speed (to a certain point).
|
Nice find, I love these things. Hope it turns out to be a feature.
|
On October 05 2011 02:18 Logo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2011 01:52 Phunkapotamus wrote:On October 04 2011 19:19 mordk wrote:
Well, all that animation cancelling in DotA is going to be useful here apparently!
This is different than DOTA Animation Cancelling. In DOTA, it didn't increase your attack speed. The game allowed you to initiate a different action once the Active phase of the attack had finished. You could cancel the recovery animation with a move command. This is different in that you can cancel at any time with another attack. It "Resets the Swing Timer" as some moves in League of Legends do. The fact is though, I did find this when trying to do DOTA style animation cancelling with the Witch Doctor's Firebomb. He is so slow in throwing the damn thing that I wanted to speed it up somehow. I'll be updating the original post with some good uses of the trick. It's very similar to orb walking though which DOES increase your attack speed (to a certain point).
Animation Cancelling in DOTA doesn't actually reduce the cooldown (swing timer) of the move itself. You're cancelling the Recovery into another action, which makes it seem faster simply because you're doing more things.
Orb walking however, is a different story. Since Orbs are treated as spells they would allow you to cancel into them. You could only cancel into Orbs from actions other than the Orb itself. Therefore Orb->Walk->Orb worked, which is essentially 2 cancels. Cancel Orb's Recovery with a walk, then cancel the walk with another Orb.
D3's animation cancelling is no better than League of Legends "swing timer reset" moves. Things like.
Ezreal's Q
Talon's Q
Nasus' Q
I'd like it if the recovery phase were to be cancelled by walk actions  Still good though!
|
I really wanna see Grenades -> Multishot for the demon hunter for PvE minion killing.
With the Yellow rune in grenades it'll generate 24 hatred/shot while multishot can do 300% weapon damage for 30 hatred/shot (or you could use the rocket passive + rocket rune). That rotation, assuming you can make up the extra 6 hatred/shot (which should be doable with other abilities), should be pretty deadly. Then just grab something like impale for bosses and defensive abilities and you're good to go (or maybe multi-shot with rune is good enough for bosses).
|
This is most likely a bug and should be fixed. It's not really a cancel trick if you skill cancel is fired and do what it's supposed to do.
It looks like some kind of spam of command thrown at the server by the client side that end up in the server side doing 2 skill instead of one at nearly the same time.
Let's say you issue a skill command, the client side give it to the server that says: Okay this character wants to cast X skill, for Y sec animation and he is doing nothing so let's tell the client side it's okay to do it and lock any command that use animation. While the server process the 1st command but hasn't lock the animation he get another command that he process as if the character is doing nothing.
It doesn't gives an edge for "skilled" player this would just encourage spamming for anyone that knows this glitch. Being able to fire 2 skill at a time is not a feature that should exist unless it's something designed ingame in a skill or class mechanics.
As a Wizard you can use a signature spell at the same time as an AP using spell.
With Golden Runestone on Electrocute and Prodigy you get 5 to 26 AP if you hit 3 targets, Golden Runestoned Storm Armor make Arcane Orb cost 28 AP. For any group with more than 2 monsters that's just free Arcane Orb without ever needing to refill in Arcane Power.
|
On October 05 2011 03:08 Iblis wrote:
This is most likely a bug and should be fixed. It's not really a cancel trick if you skill cancel is fired and do what it's supposed to do.
It looks like some kind of spam of command thrown at the server by the client side that end up in the server side doing 2 skill instead of one at nearly the same time.
Let's say you issue a skill command, the client side give it to the server that says: Okay this character wants to cast X skill, for Y sec animation and he is doing nothing so let's tell the client side it's okay to do it and lock any command that use animation. While the server process the 1st command but hasn't lock the animation he get another command that he process as if the character is doing nothing.
It doesn't gives an edge for "skilled" player this would just encourage spamming for anyone that knows this glitch. Being able to fire 2 skill at a time is not a feature that should exist unless it's something designed ingame in a skill or class mechanics.
As a Wizard you can use a signature spell at the same time as an AP using spell.
With Golden Runestone on Electrocute and Prodigy you get 5 to 26 AP if you hit 3 targets, Golden Runestoned Storm Armor make Arcane Orb cost 28 AP. For any group with more than 2 monsters that's just free Arcane Orb without ever needing to refill in Arcane Power.
The only thing animation canceling affects in your description is that a build where you have a good stable combo of 2 abilities is potentially more effective than a combo where you build up a bunch of resource then dump it on a single big ability. It's not even spamming, it's holding LMB + tapping another ability at opportune times.
The idea of getting free arcane orbs works even without animation canceling, it just has a different payout (dps).
If anything it seems like this helps make builds and characters more interesting as it's worthwhile to have more synergy in your builds rather than leaning on one strong skill that's spammable and a few skills that you can use in a pinch to dump your resources. So now you have a choice, do you rely on one strong skill with a bunch of supporting skills that dump resources OR do you build a synergy where you have a stronger spammable rotation, but less flexibility because you're using more skill slots for your general attack rotation.
Also for a game like D3 where you can die so fast (and HC mode) it's really nice to be able to cancel the recovery of attacks in some situations so you can take evasive/defensive actions.
|
On October 05 2011 03:08 Iblis wrote:
This is most likely a bug and should be fixed. It's not really a cancel trick if you skill cancel is fired and do what it's supposed to do.
It looks like some kind of spam of command thrown at the server by the client side that end up in the server side doing 2 skill instead of one at nearly the same time.
Let's say you issue a skill command, the client side give it to the server that says: Okay this character wants to cast X skill, for Y sec animation and he is doing nothing so let's tell the client side it's okay to do it and lock any command that use animation. While the server process the 1st command but hasn't lock the animation he get another command that he process as if the character is doing nothing.
It doesn't gives an edge for "skilled" player this would just encourage spamming for anyone that knows this glitch. Being able to fire 2 skill at a time is not a feature that should exist unless it's something designed ingame in a skill or class mechanics.
As a Wizard you can use a signature spell at the same time as an AP using spell.
With Golden Runestone on Electrocute and Prodigy you get 5 to 26 AP if you hit 3 targets, Golden Runestoned Storm Armor make Arcane Orb cost 28 AP. For any group with more than 2 monsters that's just free Arcane Orb without ever needing to refill in Arcane Power.
Combat states are handled client side in Diablo 3.
This has nothing to do with spamming. Perhaps you're referring to the latter parts the video where we display bugs related to the spellcasters? These are special cases. Please refer to the Barbarian, Monk, and Demon Hunter parts for skillful application.
It's obvious that this "bug" is a feature for most moves. IE: You want to cancel a Slow 2-Hander Cleave animation with Leap Attack to escape. Whether Blizzard intended for it to be used globally is unknown.
It clearly gives an edge. Look at the monk's movement.
All this does is speed up mechanics that already exist. You're not getting free Arcane Orbs. You're just doing two things faster than you would have normally.
It's also not two things for the price of one. There is a cost. You're bound by the Recovery phase of the second attack. You're weaving a second attack into the Active and Recovery phase of the first attack. Your recovery then becomes the second attack's recovery.
I'm not really sure why people are upset at this discovery. My intent was to have people rally behind this because it's freaking cool and should be in the game. It's not particularly game breaking or overpowered, it just raises the technical ceiling of the game slightly. As Team Liquiders- we should want Muta Stacking. We should want patrol-move Vultures. That shit makes the game more skillful and exciting.
|
Diablo Fighter III: Fight for the Future!
I have a feeling this will probably stick in the game. This kind of thing actually even existed way back in Warcraft 3. You could use your heroes much more efficiently if you issued another command right after they throw off a spell.
And when I was playing a wizard, I was definitely having loads of fun pretending I was a Starcraft 2 marine by doing magic missile stutter step! =D
|
On October 05 2011 03:56 Phunkapotamus wrote:
I'm not really sure why people are upset at this discovery. My intent was to have people rally behind this because it's freaking cool and should be in the game. It's not particularly game breaking or overpowered, it just raises the technical ceiling of the game slightly. As Team Liquiders- we should want Muta Stacking. We should want patrol-move Vultures. That shit makes the game more skillful and exciting.
I'm not sure why people are upset either. Bug or Feature, animation cancelling allows for a higher skill ceiling on play, smooth-looking skill combos. I think it's best to think of it as analogous to a fighting game, where this kind of behaviour is very common. Being able to eek more out of combat by using your skills in rhythm should be better than spamming!
|
Don't misunderstand my posts, this is clearly a good find and could be something really fun and feeling good to use. Every players that know that trick should use it and any "competent" players will use it.
There are some limitations on games to control the usage of attacks/skills and letting them stay balanceable, ressource cost, cooldown and something often hidden as general cooldown(GCD WoW type) or animation time of skill/attack(Diablo 2, Aion type).
In WoW you cant use a skill if you triggered the general cooldown wait.
In Aion you can't do anything melee, skill or sometime even move if you are in an animation(yeah you could cancel some with jumpshot as ranger and such and it feels like the game is broken).
In the Diablo series there is no GCD because some things are done faster than others, and you can influence those stats with attack speed for the melee attack animation, and with casting speed for the skill animations.
If it was just the melee animation that wasn't on the same "waiting level" of the the skill animation it would be no problem for me, throwing skills while meleeing is fine. Throwing another skill everytime you use a skill before you're supposed to be able to is just a flaw in the gameplay and goes against the base design of the game and would make the balance of this a real nightmare.
Balance in PvP will not be a priority of the game so they don't care about that, but this is just a hole in their limitations that just change in the game in every aspect and will make people kill monsters way faster and in a non balanceable/manageable way between classes.
|
Wow that makes me really want to play the beta so much more! I could probably spend hours focusing on the animation canceling alone, maybe doing runs with no gear, and having animation canceling as the primary means of defeating mobs.
TL, keep doing what you do best!
|
Gotta be out of your fucking mind if you think this is intended, and/or will remain. Come on. You're talking about the same company that made absolutely no effort to keep obscure little nuances in SC2 on the grounds that everything you can/should be able to do, should be clear and easily understood.
That level of denial deserves the incoming disappointment.
|
United States7166 Posts
yeah as sad as it is, he's probably right. Unless Blizzard makes this or something like this an announced feature, which I find unlikely, they're just going to remove it. Plus it also gives them a lot more work to do in terms of rebalancing skills. The community would really have to be in an uproar for them to consider bringing it back, and judging from what I've seen on other sites, it's mostly a mixed opinion
|
On October 05 2011 07:13 Bibdy wrote:
Gotta be out of your fucking mind if you think this is intended, and/or will remain. Come on. You're talking about the same company that made absolutely no effort to keep obscure little nuances in SC2 on the grounds that everything you can/should be able to do, should be clear and easily understood.
Well I think youre right. But then again this game isn't suppose to be competitive at all so they just might not care about it. Not counting on it.
|
That find is awesome.
Reminds me of the game Super Smash Bros Melee where bugs like this
made the skill scale incredible deep and until today that keeps getting higher
in that game.
I really hope stuff like this stays in the game.
|
Sounds like something that would just get tedious after a few days of play.
|
United States7166 Posts
you mean like ...............normal diablo gameplay?
|
booo i first thought it would be something hard to do like in the good old times animation delay bypassing by moving.
hope they will add the typical 0.1 second delay after using a skill, atleast to casters, for melee ranged this is quiet okay, but meeeeh could be way harder to do, thats no challenge.
|
On October 05 2011 07:13 Bibdy wrote:
Gotta be out of your fucking mind if you think this is intended, and/or will remain. Come on. You're talking about the same company that made absolutely no effort to keep obscure little nuances in SC2 on the grounds that everything you can/should be able to do, should be clear and easily understood.
That level of denial deserves the incoming disappointment.
It's not too far fetched. Like I mentioned before, Blizzard is intentionally restricting the types of moves that are allowed on Mouse Buttons as a result of "animations". Perhaps meaning attacks that they don't want to be cancelled or allow cancelling with.
It's a different team than SC2. I personally know some of the D3 dev team and have done my part to try and keep this in the game. I figure it's also up to the community to make sure popular opinion keeps something like this in.
|
This is an awesome find and I hope Blizzard keeps it in the game. I haven't posted on TL in a while, but I just wanted to show my support for this feature/bug. Little things like that add to the skill ceiling of the game, and that can't be bad. It reminds me of a while back when someone mentioned the monk played a little bit like a street fighter character. With animation canceling that notion is even more conceivable. The combat in Diablo 3 is already brilliant, but with animation canceling, shit just got more real.
|
Being a game developer myself, I can say this is probably an intentional addition.
Reason being, the abilities are done thru different action states. If you did NOT want an attack to be canceled, you simply make it so that the attack can not be performed in a current state. For certain abilities to cancel another, there has to be a specific exception allowing the second attack to be performed. In the code for the "Attack" state, you have to tell it what you want to happen during the state - you have to manually add code stating that the controller needs to check Hotkeys during the state for your abilities to work at all.
I'll give you another example. When making a character controller, the primary thing on your mind is what is going to be cancelable in to each other. The function that gets your movement input is disabled in certain situations - such as when you attack. As you can see, this is working perfectly - if a character is moving the movement is canceled when performing an ability. The place you put the function to get your movement input is the SAME PLACE that you will typically put the hotkey input, that way everything is disabled at the same time. That means that if certain abilities (or States) are allowed, you have to manually add an exception in the "Attack State" area,saying to still get hotkey input.
Taking this in to consideration, it's highly unlikely this was a mistake.
I also must stress, what abilities can be canceled in to another is the FIRST THING on your mind when creating character controllers. It's tested from the beginning, with every state you add to the game. Movement states, hit-stun states, interruption states, attack states, ability states.... those are added one at a time and MUST be tested upon implementation. For any of these to cancel one state but not cancel all of them has to explicitly be created that way.
The places you typically have to look for bugs in controllers is with jumping states or hit stun states - because often times a developer will miss a certain variable when Jumping that will make a portion of an attack state still happen - Jumping or getting hit has to MANUALLY cancel what you are doing and replace it wit hsomething else. But attack states are different, they only perform actions and are not coded to manually cancel anything - they only have to disable movement & hotkey input - if they ARE canceling something it requires special coding to do so.
|
On October 05 2011 08:57 Spyridon wrote:
Being a game developer myself, I can say this is probably an intentional addition.
Reason being, the abilities are done thru different action states. If you did NOT want an attack to be canceled, you simply make it so that the attack can not be performed in a current state. For certain abilities to cancel another, there has to be a specific exception allowing the second attack to be performed. In the code for the "Attack" state, you have to tell it what you want to happen during the state - you have to manually add code stating that the controller needs to check Hotkeys during the state for your abilities to work at all.
I'll give you another example. When making a character controller, the primary thing on your mind is what is going to be cancelable in to each other. The function that gets your movement input is disabled in certain situations - such as when you attack. As you can see, this is working perfectly - if a character is moving the movement is canceled when performing an ability. The place you put the function to get your movement input is the SAME PLACE that you will typically put the hotkey input, that way everything is disabled at the same time. That means that if certain abilities (or States) are allowed, you have to manually add an exception in the "Attack State" area,saying to still get hotkey input.
Taking this in to consideration, it's highly unlikely this was a mistake.
I also must stress, what abilities can be canceled in to another is the FIRST THING on your mind when creating character controllers. It's tested from the beginning, with every state you add to the game. Movement states, hit-stun states, interruption states, attack states, ability states.... those are added one at a time and MUST be tested upon implementation. For any of these to cancel one state but not cancel all of them has to explicitly be created that way.
The places you typically have to look for bugs in controllers is with jumping states or hit stun states - because often times a developer will miss a certain variable when Jumping that will make a portion of an attack state still happen - Jumping or getting hit has to MANUALLY cancel what you are doing and replace it wit hsomething else. But attack states are different, they only perform actions and are not coded to manually cancel anything - they only have to disable movement & hotkey input - if they ARE canceling something it requires special coding to do so.
Fellow game dev here. Yep. The only thing I would add is that while they may have intentionally added cancelling for certain moves. Perhaps it wasn't intended to be added for ALL the moves. :D
The cryptic conditions in which you can or can't cancel seem geared towards this being intentional for moves that they'd never consider you to put on your mouse.
If this did get fixed, I imagine you'll see Fury Users/Spirit Users/Hatred Users able to cancel the Generators, but not the other way around.
|
On October 05 2011 09:08 Phunkapotamus wrote:
Fellow game dev here. Yep. The only thing I would add is that while they may have intentionally added cancelling for certain moves. Perhaps it wasn't intended to be added for ALL the moves. :D
Agreed. But the reason I'm fairly sure that it was intended for most (if not all) moves is that it works on the variety of characters. Considering it's on the variety of chars, it seems likely that they may have added it for a few too many moves, but to make that mistake it must have been intended for a large variety of them and slipped thru to too many. (hope I'm making sense lol)
|
It seems that blizzard has moved the bug forum post over to the feedback forum, suggesting that this is intended and will be left in the game.
Hopefully they didn't overlook the whole post and miss the bug that locks your character in place.
|
This would pretty much make dual Rage generators required to play Barbs at the highest level, which saddens me because I wanted to play a style that didn't include that. Some appropriate rules on what can cancel into what would be good though (I very much like the idea of generator into spender or anything into cooldown, so you could say stun, buff, leap out, etc... between attacks with minimal downtime for your spammables).
I do have a question though, Phunk. You mention mouse into keys. Is it actually mouse into keys or LMB/RMB into 1-5? If you re-bind 1-5 to mouse buttons (say, alt, shift or ctrl + mouse buttons), does it still work?
|
It only works with LMB / RMB.
If you re-bind something to MMB for instance, it does not work.
|
I meant what you are able to cancel with, not which skills you can cancel, so you didn't actually answer the question I asked. I'm also not sure if your answer actually makes any sense because you said it only works with LMB/RMB but then you mention re-binding something, but you can't re-bind LMB and RMB.
Are you saying that if you re-bind 1 to MMB and try to cancel LMB with skill 1 on MMB, it won't work (assuming the rest of the rules are true, i.e. the skill on 1 is not bound to RMB)?
|
I haven't tested any of this with the Hotkeys or Mouse Buttons rebound to anything other than their defaults.
For more clarity, the LMB/RMB are the skills to the right of the potion in this screenshot: http://robogilardi.com/Hitboxes/Hitboxes01.jpg
"Hotkeys" are the 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5 you see.
If you rebind any of the skills to something else, I'm not sure what happens. I can test, but I'm at work. Robo could probably help out quicker.
|
i love finding things like this in games. a way to be more effective than the obvious...much like how BXR made halo 2 so fun
|
I misread the post, sorry -
Notes:
LMB = The default skill slot for LMB (As phunk explains)
RMB = The default skill slot for RMB (As phunk explains)
You can cancel with any hotkey (rebound or not) that (1)isn't LMB or RMB, (2)Isn't ALSO bound to LMB/RMB
Examples:
Hotkeys: 1,2,3,4,5,LMB,RMB - all different skills
1,2,3,4,5 will cancel LMB and RMB
Hotkeys: 3,r,MMB,z,a,LMB,RMB - all different skills
3,r,MMB,z,a will cancel LMB and RMB
Hotkeys: 1,2,3,4,5,LMB,RMB - Where 5 is the same skill as LMB or RMB
1,2,3,4 will cancel LMB,RMB, 5
So basically,
If a spell is bound to LMB or RMB it can be canceled, but not by each other.
|
Awesome, that's exactly what I was hoping to know. Would've made for some awkward constraints if re-binding 1-5 to the mouse caused them not to cancel LMB/RMB.
|
Blizzard says that it is intentional:
It's an intentional mechanic, not an exploit or bug. Our intent is simply to make combat feel good and responsive, but the implementation to hit that goal in the closed beta build is actually quite old. It's likely you'll see changes within some future beta push that reflect more what we're testing now internally, but of course it's possible that won't be the final implementation either.
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/3341754892#11
Glad to see that they want this in, though they apparently have it changed in internal testing.
|
bashiok:
"It's an intentional mechanic, not an exploit or bug. Our intent is simply to make combat feel good and responsive, but the implementation to hit that goal in the closed beta build is actually quite old. It's likely you'll see changes within some future beta push that reflect more what we're testing now internally, but of course it's possible that won't be the final implementation either."
10/07/2011 12:47 PMPosted by Jacka
bashiok is saying that they want people to be casting 2+ spells in the same timespan as 1.
bashiok:
No, that's not what I'm saying. That's not the intent.
I'm saying we're looking for ways to make combat feel responsive and "good". Those are both rather subjective things, and the early prototype to try to achieve those goals (which is what you can see in the beta) has already been replaced by something else.
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/3341754892#11
|
Wow, this thing got around. Good job TL!
Excellent news that it stays. Hopefully they won't gimp it!
|
United States7166 Posts
i'm not gonna lie, i'm really surprised. I guess the development team for D3 is quite different from their other games. but anyways this is awesome news, so glad
|
That's a pretty nice find. Tried some of it on the monk in town and although it wasn't in actual combat it feels pretty good. I'm also glad to see that they won't remove it. Love little techniques like this ^_~
However... can't wait for some sort of PvP inclusion, it's going to be much more critical there than it is in PvM.
Edit: I guess we don't know what the maximum attack speed bonuses will be however. Gotta wait for that to come out first, otherwise it might turn out that this technique isn't as efficient as one might think.
|
in gw you can move in the refractory period while you can't while attacking/casting. made the game ten times as dynamic and fun esp. for melees. this is good stuff indeed
|
It would be cool if this was a feature instead of a bug. Here's to hoping Blizz will leave it in.
|
On October 11 2011 06:10 Junichi wrote:It would be cool if this was a feature instead of a bug. Here's to hoping Blizz will leave it in.
they already stated that this is intended. they want combat to feel more responsive, however they also said that this isnt their final build either and in development it currently isnt like in the beta or in this thread described anymore
|
Man, i wish I had the beta now so can try this out. It is nice being able to see it in action, but the most gratifying aspect would be actually doing it. I am all for technical changes and adaptations that allow for many more variaitons and complex fighting styles.
|
United States7166 Posts
is it just me or does this not work anymore? just started playin but cant reproduce this bug..fixed in new patch?
|
Would love to get an update on this after Zelniq's comment.
|
On November 15 2011 14:28 Zelniq wrote:
is it just me or does this not work anymore? just started playin but cant reproduce this bug..fixed in new patch?
Seems they replaced it with something else; http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/3341754892#17
"...and the early prototype to try to achieve those goals (which is what you can see in the beta) has already been replaced by something else. "
|
THe thing with animation cancelling is that the game will be balanced in acertain way
by leaving it in it means it will be balanced assuming tha tyou ahve animation cancelling -> noobs get owned as they dont do it.
Dont get me wrong ... animation cancelling is a VERY cool thing in pvp games. But pve i can only see it causing problems for noobs ...
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
