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On February 06 2011 13:39 ChThoniC wrote:
Are you saying you prevent 4-gate and apply pressure with pure speedling?
No, I'm saying that pure +1 speedlings can stop most 4-gates from crushing my expansion. Applying pressure will obviously require more than just speedlings. I also said "most" because a heavy sentry/zealot composition will obviously require roaches instead of pure +1 speedlings.
On February 06 2011 13:39 ChThoniC wrote:
What league are you in?
I'm only in Platinum, but that hasn't stopped me from knowing how to get +1 speedlings out of 2 bases before a 4-gate push reaches my ramp. But maybe you should also be asking everyone in this long thread what league they're in, because they seem to think that Dimaga's +1 Speedling opener is a sound strategy.
Let me ask you this question ChThoniC.... how is defending a 4-gate on TestMap3 so different from defending a 4-gate on Scrap Station or Blistering Sands? Do we see Dimaga, Idra, Nestea, and Fruitdealer auto-lose on those maps against all Protoss just because spines can't defend the main & natural simultaneously?
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test map 4 looks like metropolis with the gold positions moved outward.
woot
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I'm not going to try and read the 37 pages already loaded, I'm just recording my personal take.
General Thoughts:
Testmap 1 - I have a feeling that if they mess with Lost Temple enough they can draw a huge snake in the middle and call it "Python".
Testmap 3 - Looks like 4gate heaven, especially with the really wide natural and a ton of space in the main (easy to hide scouting probes and pylons). Though, I like how the gold expos are in high risk/high reward areas. If this were BW I would predict a healthy siege line guarding chokes down the middle and splitting the map early, but I'm not sure how the arrangement translates to SC2. I am a little concerned about the thin ramp getting bunkered, but no matter the arrangement someone will think of a clever all-in...
Testmap 2 - A lot of room means a lot of places to hide 4gate pylons. But it also means a lot of space to flank. This map has a kind of "Fighting Spirit" feel to it where the third bases are risky with multiple entrances while taking over a corner natural and main ensures a strong economic gain. The two rushing lanes also look like a pain to scout. The zerg in me is looking forward to trying this out.
Testmap 4 - I don't like the colors, but I'll live! Looks like third bases are hard to come by, so I predict a lot of zergs bitching about not getting into the late game. Anything but cross map positions looks like a REALLY close rush distance (if it's a 4 player map), so once again, I think zergs are going to endlessly bitch about it.
Testmap 5 - I'm real confused of what even to make of this. Can't really tell if there's 2 spawn position or 4. Either way, this would be one where I'd hammer out a bunch of games, see what happens, and see how others are dealing with it.
I'm glad that Blizzard is at least expanding the map pool. I'd imagine they need more data to fix units and they haven't varied the maps yet. Glad they're thinking about it!
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I confess, I was really excited about new maps. However, I'm growing more and more aggravated at Blizzards hatred of easy-to-defend naturals and obvious thirds. In this sense, Lost Temple is what I like to see (cross positions/ close by air only). None of these maps have easy-to-defend naturals, and that makes me sad.
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On February 06 2011 10:25 cosmo.6792 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2011 08:42 ChThoniC wrote:
For example, it is impossible for a Zerg to do anything but one base on #3 against Protoss, because any 4-gate rush can infinitely block the unprotectable ramp while taking potshots at the expansion. When did people get this idea that Zerg cannot defend a 4-gate without static defenses at their natural? I have found that +1 speedlings can counter most forms of early 4-gates without the need for spine crawlers.
So what you mean is every game no matter what I need to get super fast evo chamber and get +1 because my opponent might go 4 gate, right? Man that's stupid thinking, you need to react for a 4 gate, but you suggest wasting 100/100 just to get +1 so you can counter 4 gate.
People are saying that a map is bad because he comes, makes a forcefield and you won't have any reinforcements from your main, but you are giving an advice which has nothing to do with a problem.
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these maps are quite terran favored imo..
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On February 06 2011 14:35 cosmo.6792 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2011 13:39 ChThoniC wrote:
Are you saying you prevent 4-gate and apply pressure with pure speedling? No, I'm saying that pure +1 speedlings can stop most 4-gates from crushing my expansion. Applying pressure will obviously require more than just speedlings. I also said "most" because a heavy sentry/zealot composition will obviously require roaches instead of pure +1 speedlings. I'm only in Platinum, but that hasn't stopped me from knowing how to get +1 speedlings out of 2 bases before a 4-gate push reaches my ramp. But maybe you should also be asking everyone in this long thread what league they're in, because they seem to think that Dimaga's +1 Speedling opener is a sound strategy. Let me ask you this question ChThoniC.... how is defending a 4-gate on TestMap3 so different from defending a 4-gate on Scrap Station or Blistering Sands? Do we see Dimaga, Idra, Nestea, and Fruitdealer auto-lose on those maps against all Protoss just because spines can't defend the main & natural simultaneously?
If you really think test map 3 is the same as scrap station for defending a 4 gate, you have no idea what i'm talking about and should probably stop arguing with someone who is much better than you at this game.
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Interesting maps.... although I wish they would also add the GSL maps.
The more, the merrier in my opinion! I'm so sick and tired of playing the same maps over-and-over again....
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lol too much hate
They are new maps, actual maps sucks, adding new maps wich suck in some aspects is overall good, yeah we want "good" maps, that according to our standarts, in my case big macro maps with considerable rush distance so all ins can still happen, but we have to play what we´ve got, I mean, if you really want to play balanced maps, use iCCup channel, they are way better and as far as I`ve seen, there`s always people in it.
I`ve just decided that new maps is great, even if they arent so good. (=
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I played so many games today. The new LT is really macro oriented now. Bases are so easy to take and defend that I actually made a carrier switch late against a zerg for the win. It was the first time I ever used carriers and won lol. All my expos were easily defended with canons once I got the gold base to afford so many canons. It was a lot of fun to play, it reminded me of python..
Map 2 is huge and I played some pretty long macro games on it. It was crazy how my zerg opponent had the whole map covered in creep and had so many bases =/
The rest of the maps so far are meh, do have hard to defend naturals & thirds, but they still beat blistering sands, steppes of war and delta quadrant. The layouts are very interesting though. Overall an improvement of maps IMO.
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Damn I would have really liked for the ladder to be updated with the GSL maps.
I hate to see a split map pool, just makes the ladder less worthy of a practice place for the pro's and makes it less fun to watch pro games imo, as I won't be as familiar with 'their' maps.
They seem to be working along well with GSL regarding patch timings, they could also work together with maps imo.
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Man I really wish Blizzard would finally let go of their stupid rocks & watch towers. A few well placed rocks with maybe double their current HP similar to BW would be nice and maybe one watch tower per map max., but they're totally overdoing it imho.
Edit: Apart from that, at first glance the new maps do seem better than the current ones.
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Canada13427 Posts
On February 06 2011 22:03 Mooncat wrote:
Man I really wish Blizzard would finally let go of their stupid rocks & watch towers. A few well placed rocks with maybe double their current HP similar to BW would be nice and maybe one watch tower per map max., but they're totally overdoing it imho.
Edit: Apart from that, at first glance the new maps do seem better than the current ones.
I agree, some of the maps have way too many rocks. Its almost like they want you to delay taking a third or fourth. Or maybe they want to prevent a FE to the gold :/ I dont know why they like their rocks so much but sometimes its excessive.
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these maps are atrocious.
ICCUP/GSL maps are far superior to these maps.
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I want to give these maps a chance before i just start yelling at them for been bad maps. Some look better then others but overall just having larger maps is nice. Also i understand why blizz doesn't use the gsl maps,but after we see how the team league goes i think it would be just stupid not to use them.
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I like the lost temple edit, that is so sweet for a Z player really happy with it
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On February 06 2011 22:03 Mooncat wrote:
Man I really wish Blizzard would finally let go of their stupid rocks & watch towers. A few well placed rocks with maybe double their current HP similar to BW would be nice and maybe one watch tower per map max., but they're totally overdoing it imho.
Edit: Apart from that, at first glance the new maps do seem better than the current ones.
Yesss
Blizzard should listen to this.
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On February 06 2011 13:39 ChThoniC wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2011 13:20 cosmo.6792 wrote:On February 06 2011 12:38 ChThoniC wrote:
How do you get speedlings from 2 bases when your ramp constantly has forcefield on it?
Are you saying it's not possible to get speedlings out of 2 bases before a 4-gate push starts? Are you saying you prevent 4-gate and apply pressure with pure speedling? What league are you in?
You know who else said that you can crush a 4gate with pure speedling, IdrA.
Search for "JP and Friends": watch the first Youtube video with IdrA, in that video you will see IdrA crush a 4gate by Cruncher (who happened to win the TLopen) with pure speedling; then he goes on to recommend that people do that to defend 4gate.
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So what you mean is every game no matter what I need to get super fast evo chamber and get +1 because my opponent might go 4 gate, right? Man that's stupid thinking, you need to react for a 4 gate, but you suggest wasting 100/100 just to get +1 so you can counter 4 gate.
Not sure if you realize this but that 100/100 you "wasted" helps for the entire rest of the game also... +1 melee ling are badass for 3 gate FE too unless the toss has super nice FF. Can usually snipe at least a few sentries, and keeping sentry numbers down is key shit.
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On February 07 2011 04:01 CrazyF1r3f0x wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2011 13:39 ChThoniC wrote:On February 06 2011 13:20 cosmo.6792 wrote:On February 06 2011 12:38 ChThoniC wrote:
How do you get speedlings from 2 bases when your ramp constantly has forcefield on it?
Are you saying it's not possible to get speedlings out of 2 bases before a 4-gate push starts? Are you saying you prevent 4-gate and apply pressure with pure speedling? What league are you in? You know who else said that you can crush a 4gate with pure speedling, IdrA. Search for "JP and Friends": watch the first Youtube video with IdrA, in that video you will see IdrA crush a 4gate by Cruncher (who happened to win the TLopen) with pure speedling; then he goes on to recommend that people do that to defend 4gate.
You're ignoring the whole part about where only half of your speedlings can get down the ramp because it's blocked by forcefield. The ramp that is un-defendable because of how far it is from the main and natural.
It's like another Blistering Sands, except your ramp is even farther from your natural and there's no backdoor rocks to help you later in the game or to help you get around your force-fielded ramp. It's just a bad design.
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EPT
