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Lol. oGs has 8 in code S, which is amazing btw, but almost everyone of them is grouped with a teammate.... WTF?
+ Show Spoiler +there was definitely a system to how they set this up, but they can't go by teams, or foreigners or any of the sort, they strickly have to go by the points people have, and arrange it so that the groups are arranged to be of "equal difficulty" Here's some quick analysis that I've done.
Assuming winners are assigned 5 points you have
nestea, and FD
finalists are assigned 4 points:
MC, Rain, Rainbow, MarineKingPrime
semis are 3:
NexLive
Ensnare
SlayerSBoxeR
HongUn
Jinro
quarters are 2:
Choya
Kyrix
Genius
Nada
Zenio
Maka
Inca
sSKS
and the rest are assigned one point.
if you actually tally up each of the groups, you end up with
A: 9
B: 9
C: 8
D: 10 (hell group all are quarter finalists or better)
E: 8 (but hopetorture is 3rd ranked player by points, so they may assign him extra point of difficulty)
F: 9
G: 9
H: 8
So overall, they tried to space out the ranking and result winners across the groups as best they could. Lets face it, while IdrA is one of our foreign heroes, he hasn't shown the results as well as some of the other korean players, and as such was one of the "fill in the hole" guys in the group regardless of his actual skill level or not. As for race balancing, it's never the case for them to try to race balance, they never have when making the brackets, it's based solely on the rankings/results, that way you don't somehow end up putting 2 finalists into the same group because of race balancing. Overall the groups seem pretty even in difficulty if you go by the rankings, except for group D, where you have 3 quarterfinalists and 1 finalist in there (there were no fillers in that group).
My predictions are just gonna go by stats because that's the way I gamble:
A) Nestea - Maka
B) FD and Zenio (maybe mvp, depending on if he improves further or not)
C) Boxer and HongUn
D) Rain and Tester
E) Rainbow and Genius
F) MC and Nada
G) Foxer and Nexlive (if he plays) otherwise Clide
H: Ensnare and Jinro
Well there is a thread explaining the exact points system i think first was like 4650 or something...
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Weren't people complaining about how it was all rigged a few weeks ago and now that it is very obvious that it is random you complain? Seriously? Groups look fine. Excited for 2011.
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On December 15 2010 03:59 Sakarabu wrote:Show nested quote ++ Show Spoiler +On December 15 2010 03:50 Krigwin wrote:On December 15 2010 03:48 Sakarabu wrote:
Why do you people seem to have such a fucking hard time with the concept of a RANDOM draw.
They literally picked their groups out of a hat. Please stfu about "GOM didn't set up the groups properly". It is completely random, they do not have any control over the groups, and this is by far the fairest way to do it. Infact I would expect an outcry if the groups were preset by GOM, as that would just scream of match fixing. Please explain how it would be match fixing. Also, they "randomly" picked the GSL3 maps too, and that's how we ended up with Steppes of War in every match. Random isn't always fair and it's definitely not a very smart way to run a tournament. Because if someone has to pick who fights who there will always be (even a subconcious) level of bias. Even by splitting up the foreigners (or purposely putting them in the same group) you are then saying "Ok we want to give the foreigners an advantage over the Koreans". I hope you can see the flaw in that system and therefore why random seeding is the best option (indeed, the only option). Randomly drawing maps is also a completely different situation to what we have here, even bringing that up shows your complete lack of logic and understanding of the draw. Also something people seem to be completely overlooking is the fact that 2 people from each group go through. So this actually gives both Jinro and Idra a BETTER (or at the very least equal to being in different groups) chance of making it through to the next round.
I don't see the flaw in that system actually. And it's not giving the foreigners an advantage over the Koreans, it's splitting up the foreigners so we have a smaller chance of foreigners killing foreigners.
You're making the mistake of arguing from the assumption that "fair" equals good. I don't agree with that assumption. I couldn't care less actually, if the brackets were biased and every match in the first round had a big name versus a lesser-known player. That would end up with a better tournament overall with more big-names clashing later in longer series, thus resulting in better and more balanced games and brackets, and with more viewers total for the tournament which helps esports and helps GomTV.
Going back to my original example, if we had a group of four players, Jinro and Idra and two no-names, I would very much like it for the tournament organizers to be biased as hell and give the foreigners an advantage over the Koreans and have Jinro and Idra face off against the two no-names rather than each other in the first round. That would also eliminate the possibility of one of the two foreigners getting knocked out first round while some lesser player advances simply because he was lucky and randomly placed into an easier bracket. That's the epitome of unfairness in my opinion.
For example, in this GSL, I don't think it's good for the tournament that KyrixZenith, winner of the all-stars and fantastic player, gets knocked out in the first round while Monster advances. That deprived us of potentially excellent future games from Kyrix simply because he had the bad luck of the draw to face off against a teammate who knew his play inside out in the Ro64. I don't think it's good for the tournament that BitbyBitPrime.WE made it further than Sen, Ret, Boxer, and Idra simply because he had an easier bracket. Three crowd-drawing foreigners and one revolutionary legend get knocked out in the Ro32 while an all-in machine facerolls further into the tournament simply because he had a better luck of the draw. Now, was it "fair"? Perhaps. But it was incredibly bad for the tournament and cost them tons of views and potentially awesome matches.
Fair does not equal good. Random does not equal good. Smarter selection of matches and brackets will be better for everyone - better for the players as it ensures fairer matches for all, better for the viewers because it ensures better games and more representation of big-names, and better for the tournament because it gets more views. Don't assume that I agree with your silly belief that being "fair" is good for anyone.
Also, explain how random map selection is a "completely" different situation.
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I actually like that we'll get to see Jinro vs IdrA. This is like when people complained that Boxer and Nada would meet in the Ro8 instead of finals.
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Also the drawing wasn't entirely random, players were placed into three pools and each group has one player from pools 1 and 2 and two from pool 3.
Pool 1: Fruitdealer, NesTea, Rainbow, MarineKing, MC, Rain, HongUn, Ensnare
Pool 2: Boxer, Maka, Jinro, LiveForever, Inca, Genius, Zenio, Kyrix
Pool 3: Choya, Check, sSKS, Nada, Idra, Leenock, TheWind, Clide, SanZenith, MVP, Anypro, TheBestfOu, LegalMind, JookToJung
So the players who were successful in GSL 1-3 got spots in pools 1 and 2 and avoided having to face other players who were successful in GSL 1-3. It's a fair system, although not the most exciting with all the mirrors.
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On December 15 2010 04:15 VeNoM HaZ Skill wrote:Lol. oGs has 8 in code S, which is amazing btw, but almost everyone of them is grouped with a teammate.... WTF? + Show Spoiler +there was definitely a system to how they set this up, but they can't go by teams, or foreigners or any of the sort, they strickly have to go by the points people have, and arrange it so that the groups are arranged to be of "equal difficulty" Here's some quick analysis that I've done.
Assuming winners are assigned 5 points you have
nestea, and FD
finalists are assigned 4 points:
MC, Rain, Rainbow, MarineKingPrime
semis are 3:
NexLive
Ensnare
SlayerSBoxeR
HongUn
Jinro
quarters are 2:
Choya
Kyrix
Genius
Nada
Zenio
Maka
Inca
sSKS
and the rest are assigned one point.
if you actually tally up each of the groups, you end up with
A: 9
B: 9
C: 8
D: 10 (hell group all are quarter finalists or better)
E: 8 (but hopetorture is 3rd ranked player by points, so they may assign him extra point of difficulty)
F: 9
G: 9
H: 8
So overall, they tried to space out the ranking and result winners across the groups as best they could. Lets face it, while IdrA is one of our foreign heroes, he hasn't shown the results as well as some of the other korean players, and as such was one of the "fill in the hole" guys in the group regardless of his actual skill level or not. As for race balancing, it's never the case for them to try to race balance, they never have when making the brackets, it's based solely on the rankings/results, that way you don't somehow end up putting 2 finalists into the same group because of race balancing. Overall the groups seem pretty even in difficulty if you go by the rankings, except for group D, where you have 3 quarterfinalists and 1 finalist in there (there were no fillers in that group).
My predictions are just gonna go by stats because that's the way I gamble:
A) Nestea - Maka
B) FD and Zenio (maybe mvp, depending on if he improves further or not)
C) Boxer and HongUn
D) Rain and Tester
E) Rainbow and Genius
F) MC and Nada
G) Foxer and Nexlive (if he plays) otherwise Clide
H: Ensnare and Jinro Well there is a thread explaining the exact points system i think first was like 4650 or something...
yeah i just did the math on the rankings, and if you go by rankings, most groups are around the same difficulty based on ranking with 3 major exceptions.
(The lower the total, the more high ranked players there are in the group)
A: 68
B: 68
C: 63
D: 58
E: 70
F: 65
G: 70
H: 59
group C has a rank 7 and a rank 9 as well as a rank 23 and 24.
group D has a rank 6, 16, 17, and 19.
group H has a rank 8, 12, 18, and 21.
and actually of all the "fill in the hole, non-ro8 players" IdrA is the second highest ranked of them all at 21 only behind CheckPrime at 18.
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Nobody needs to start doing math and guess work, it has already all been stated:
17:10 - Players who have acquired code S are taking their seats for the drawing. Top 8 players will be seeded in groups A to H. Then players from 9~16th will take turn to draw and will be placed in seperate groups A to H(one player per group). Then players from 17th to 32nd will draw and here there will be chance that two players will draw same groups in a row.
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Group A: IMNestea, TheBestfOu
Group B: TSL.Fruitdealer, IMmvp
Group C: HongUnPrime.WE, SlayerS_'Boxer'
Group D: TSL.Rain, TSL.sSKS
Group E: Nsp.Genius, LeenockfOu
Group F: oGsMC, oGsNaDa
Group G: MarinekingPrime.WE, TSL.Clide
Group H: TLAF.Jinro, EGIdra
Yeah, I have all 4 TSL advancing and only 2 of 8 oGs. Quality over quantity!
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On December 15 2010 04:29 jalstar wrote:
Also the drawing wasn't entirely random, players were placed into three pools and each group has one player from pools 1 and 2 and two from pool 3.
Pool 1: Fruitdealer, NesTea, Rainbow, MarineKing, MC, Rain, HongUn, Ensnare
Pool 2: Boxer, Maka, Jinro, LiveForever, Inca, Genius, Zenio, Kyrix
Pool 3: Choya, Check, sSKS, Nada, Idra, Leenock, TheWind, Clide, SanZenith, MVP, Anypro, TheBestfOu, LegalMind, JookToJung
So the players who were successful in GSL 1-3 got spots in pools 1 and 2 and avoided having to face other players who were successful in GSL 1-3. It's a fair system, although not the most exciting with all the mirrors.
They should have gone even further than that. They should have taken one more step and shuffled the players around a little to drop the amount of teamkilling and mirrors a bit.
For example, switch Jinro with Inca and MC with Nestea. Now Group F has no teamkilling at all and a better race representation. Switch Kyrix with Maka and Hyperdub with LegalMind, there's another example. That wasn't hard at all and the relative balance of skill has remained the same, but now we have better-looking brackets with less teamkilling and mirrors. What's wrong with that? What exactly is so bad about that that it's unfair and biased and match fixing?
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Let's all stop the conspiracies please. Last time it got out of hand and GOM replied and then it made even more useless threads about GOM rigging matches. Do you guys not see this hurts e-sports if you people only complain and come up with conspiracies? Can't you guys just be happy that we have 2 foreigners in the S league and that we have sick matches coming up?
These conspiracies don't really help esports at all. If you really think there could be improvements then post your theories on the GOM forum in a mannerfull way. There is no point in discussing what is the better group drawing or seeding system on TL since you need to take it with GOM not TL. Too much whining tbh.
I however am super excited for the groupstages. I knew we had so many good players but this is just sick. Can't wait to see oGsMC vs oGsInCa or any of NaDa's games and Tester's games and of IMMVP.
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This is random, but the really bad kind. Don't know why it should be like this though when you can sort of control, and input in a system that randomizes based on getting unique matchups, controlling for team members etc.
So many mirrors, and check out that quite a few groups have multiple members of the same team. That's just bad. [Note, yeah, I do feel bad that two foreigners are in the same group, but separating them because of 'lack of foreigners'? Or saying it should be redone because of that? Doesn't that border on the line of 'minority protection' or something?]
And especially for groups with so many mirrors like G and F, they only have to practice up to 2 matchups, maybe even one? That really fair considering other groups like C, D and E have to practice all three?
My question: If all 16 people are going straight to GSL 4 Ro16, does it mean no one qualifies to Ro16 from the bottom?
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On December 15 2010 04:52 BuzzJuice wrote:
This is random, but the really bad kind. Don't know why it should be like this though when you can sort of control, and input in a system that randomizes based on getting unique matchups, controlling for team members etc.
So many mirrors, and check out that quite a few groups have multiple members of the same team. That's just bad. [Note, yeah, I do feel bad that two foreigners are in the same group, but separating them because of 'lack of foreigners'? Or saying it should be redone because of that? Doesn't that border on the line of 'minority protection' or something?]
And especially for groups with so many mirrors like G and F, they only have to practice up to 2 matchups, maybe even one? That really fair considering other groups like C, D and E have to practice all three?
My question: If all 16 people are going straight to GSL 4 Ro16, does it mean no one qualifies to Ro16 from the bottom?
What do you mean with
My question: If all 16 people are going straight to GSL 4 Ro16, does it mean no one qualifies to Ro16 from the bottom?
Only a maximum of 8 players from A league will be able to qualify for GSL 5 S league. It can even happen that 0 players from A league will get into S league.
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So if I am understanding correctly, this will be 48 best of 3 series between nothing but the cream of the crop players!! That is a ton of high level SC2. So hype! Can't wait!
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On December 14 2010 20:23 shell wrote:
Can't understand why don't randomize the groups but using a method that could provide less mirrors and team kills!
there's 9 protoss, 9 zers and 14 terrans, why would there be a group with 3 protoss and another with 3 terran and 3 zerg?? that's stupido imo
Idra and Jinro in the same group also sucks.. hope they make it tho!
Doing that would mean it is not randomized -_-"
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I basically mean that will there be anyone BESIDES Code S capable of getting into the round of 16? Are these Code S players the only guys we will see in Ro16 and beyond? So there will be no Ro32 because all the slots are filled? And Ro64 and so on?
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On December 15 2010 01:59 timmyfred wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2010 01:34 PartyBiscuit wrote:On December 15 2010 00:56 Koshi wrote:On December 15 2010 00:50 syllogism wrote:
There are several easier groups, depending on which players you'd replace idra/jinro with. Not lucky at all really. Somebody will soon count up the points each group achieved over GSL 1,2,3. I am pretty sure Jinro/Idra group scores pretty low. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/GSL_Rankings Thanks for that link. I just copied it straight into Excel, added the group for each player, then sorted and summed. Idra/Junro are indeed in the "easiest" group if we use the GSL Code S points as the determination of skill. ![[image loading]](http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk166/TimmyFredd/GroupPoints.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk166/TimmyFredd/GroupRanks.jpg)
It's clearly not 100% random how they made the teams.
The top 8 players are all in different groups. Players ranked 9-16 are all in different groups.
Then they roughly scattered the bottom 16 players, but roughly made it so that the rankings are mirrored (not sure how else to decribe this). ie: rank 1 paired with rank 32, rank 2 pair with 31, rank 3 paired with 30. It's not exact, but looks like the groups with the best players also have the worst players, and the other groups are all kind of in the middle.
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On December 15 2010 04:50 shannn wrote:
Let's all stop the conspiracies please. Last time it got out of hand and GOM replied and then it made even more useless threads about GOM rigging matches. Do you guys not see this hurts e-sports if you people only complain and come up with conspiracies? Can't you guys just be happy that we have 2 foreigners in the S league and that we have sick matches coming up?
These conspiracies don't really help esports at all. If you really think there could be improvements then post your theories on the GOM forum in a mannerfull way. There is no point in discussing what is the better group drawing or seeding system on TL since you need to take it with GOM not TL. Too much whining tbh.
I however am super excited for the groupstages. I knew we had so many good players but this is just sick. Can't wait to see oGsMC vs oGsInCa or any of NaDa's games and Tester's games and of IMMVP.
Well said.
Also I see no need at all for reducing the amount of team killing. oGs has the most players in code S so naturally there will be more team killing. Why should GOM cater to the team that has the most members?
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Actually I am kinda excited to see Idra vs. Jinro, these are gonna be some awesome games and we can be sure they arent full of cheese or one-base allins.
And this increases the chance, that at least one foreigner survives the group-rounds.
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On December 15 2010 04:43 MajorityofOne wrote:
Group A: IMNestea, TheBestfOu
Group B: TSL.Fruitdealer, IMmvp
Group C: HongUnPrime.WE, SlayerS_'Boxer'
Group D: TSL.Rain, TSL.sSKS
Group E: Nsp.Genius, LeenockfOu
Group F: oGsMC, oGsNaDa
Group G: MarinekingPrime.WE, TSL.Clide
Group H: TLAF.Jinro, EGIdra
Yeah, I have all 4 TSL advancing and only 2 of 8 oGs. Quality over quantity!
I'm pretty sure you didn't pick quality in group H 
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On December 15 2010 05:22 TheLonelyCarrier wrote:
So if I am understanding correctly, this will be 48 best of 3 series between nothing but the cream of the crop players!! That is a ton of high level SC2. So hype! Can't wait!
Please read the GSL S league thread in the community news.
It's Bo1 in the group stages and there are 2 group stages.
On December 15 2010 05:26 BuzzJuice wrote:
I basically mean that will there be anyone BESIDES Code S capable of getting into the round of 16? Are these Code S players the only guys we will see in Ro16 and beyond? So there will be no Ro32 because all the slots are filled? And Ro64 and so on?
There is a Code S league which means only S code players can play in it.
Those S code players are the 32 mentioned in this OP. So naturally the ro16 is going to be only of S code players. There is no ro64 because it's a 32man tournament. Please read the community news to gain more knowledge about this.
On December 15 2010 05:27 PiousMartyr wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2010 01:59 timmyfred wrote:On December 15 2010 01:34 PartyBiscuit wrote:On December 15 2010 00:56 Koshi wrote:On December 15 2010 00:50 syllogism wrote:
There are several easier groups, depending on which players you'd replace idra/jinro with. Not lucky at all really. Somebody will soon count up the points each group achieved over GSL 1,2,3. I am pretty sure Jinro/Idra group scores pretty low. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/GSL_Rankings Thanks for that link. I just copied it straight into Excel, added the group for each player, then sorted and summed. Idra/Junro are indeed in the "easiest" group if we use the GSL Code S points as the determination of skill. It's clearly not 100% random how they made the teams. The top 8 players are all in different groups. Players ranked 9-16 are all in different groups. Then they roughly scattered the bottom 16 players, but roughly made it so that the rankings are mirrored (not sure how else to decribe this). ie: rank 1 paired with rank 32, rank 2 pair with 31, rank 3 paired with 30. It's not exact, but looks like the groups with the best players also have the worst players, and the other groups are all kind of in the middle.
You didn't need to do all that to find out how they made up the groups.
GOM did not make the groups however they might have drawn some players into a group if they are unable to themselves. The players who could attend the ceremony drawed themselves.
Rank 1-8 players each draws a group meaning they won't be in the same group.
Rank 9-16 players are also drawn into a group but cannot be in the same group with eachother but they will be put in the same group as rank 1-8.
Then from rank 17-32 each player will draw a group and that is where you will be put. Meaning it is done by a player's draw in which group they are placed in. You may call it unlucky that 3 oGs players managed to draw themselves to the same group.
Players that are not able to attend to draw will automatically give GOM the right to draw for them. Don't know for which people this happened.
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EPT
