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What is blizzard doing? Terran are hit with so much nerfing...and zerg get buffed? Zerg already out mass every race in mid to late game... ultras rip through tanks like wild fire and the splash damage isnt worth jack now zerglings just surround tanks so fast...
Bc's are nerfed and usually by the time u get then its late game...reapers are getting nerfed even more, bunkers are already slowed,
so lets see the wrap up...
*tanks vs zerg ... useless??
*bc's don't even bother getting them cos u would be dead before then...
*reapers are going to be totally useless so lets not even think about making them
*and zerg buildings getting buffed OMG blizzard what is going on mate...as if they dont spread like crazy...their buildings are cheap for a reason...
Why doesnt blizzard just take terran out all together n just have P v Z
The new changes suck hard...can ne one pls tell me what good will come of this...???
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On October 10 2010 10:04 tyreecestylz wrote:
What is blizzard doing? Terran are hit with so much nerfing...and zerg get buffed? Zerg already out mass every race in mid to late game... ultras rip through tanks like wild fire and the splash damage isnt worth jack now zerglings just surround tanks so fast...
Bc's are nerfed and usually by the time u get then its late game...reapers are getting nerfed even more, bunkers are already slowed,
so lets see the wrap up...
*tanks vs zerg ... useless??
*bc's don't even bother getting them cos u would be dead before then...
*reapers are going to be totally useless so lets not even think about making them
*and zerg buildings getting buffed OMG blizzard what is going on mate...as if they dont spread like crazy...their buildings are cheap for a reason...
Why doesnt blizzard just take terran out all together n just have P v Z
The new changes suck hard...can ne one pls tell me what good will come of this...???
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=152533
Should answer why Zerg needs some help. Zerg win very few tournaments. Other than the GSL victory Cool just got only Sheth and Dimaga have been able to win even small tournaments.
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supply for rax is too much......
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IMHO they should ditch the reaper and bring back the good old medics 
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On October 08 2010 22:22 inTheMood wrote:
@RedHelix
The thing about depot before rax is that, if this change gets implemented, as a zerg or toss player, you have no reason to fear anything early from a Terran player, You can always choose the safe, eco play and basically won't need to scout very early. It ruins the early game, imho
Completely agree. If there is a problem with the reaper, they should nerf the reaper specifically, not add the supply depot to the terran tech tree, FFS.
I mean the reapers do astronomical building damage. Why not reduce that? Why not raise their cost slightly? There are a million variables to work with without adding a supply depot to the tech tree.
I'm more than annoyed that BBS is going to become a completely impossible build because of the stupid reaper.
You won't even need to scout a T as early now since those early threats will simply evaporate.
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^Not needing to scout very early...only a couple viable builds that work...
You realize this is the current TvZ situation, right? Welcome to our world in patch 1.2
Though in all seriousness the reaper nerf was pretty out of control. Would have been quite happy without it.
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On October 10 2010 22:32 mierin wrote:^Not needing to scout very early...only a couple viable builds that work... You realize this is the current TvZ situation, right? Welcome to our world in patch 1.2 Though in all seriousness the reaper nerf was pretty out of control. Would have been quite happy without it.
I don't really see this as a valid point.
Different races play differently. Comparing the options Zerg has at time X to the options Terran has at time X is pretty moot. They are different races. Obviously the options will be different in number.
Would you prefer every race was just Terran but the units looked different? Because that's what it would take to have the kind of symmetry you are talking about.
Removing BBS from the game because of reapers, and then having people like you justify it by saying Zerg doesn't have any cheeses either, is just beyond mind-numbing for me. I get a headache just reading it. So much inconsistency.
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I had no idea that a Barracks with a Tech Lab and a Factory was "Teching into a corner."
By the time reapers have speed, they have no useful role in the game. At that point you will have invested virtually all of your gas into a harassment unit that is incapable of harassing against any other tier 1.5 unit. As an added bonus, you won't have an army thanks to the reaper's incredibly long build time.
I suppose you can remind yourself that you have a barracks, factory, and tech lab when a dozen stalkers walk into your main unopposed.
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On October 10 2010 12:29 Pedo.Bear wrote:
supply for rax is too much......
I know right! It's not like Protoss needs Pylons or Zerg needs creep.
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Yay for Z buildings not dying to 4 dropped marauders....
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What Blizzard is doing:
Barracks requires a supply depot to be built
Reaper speed upgrade factory tech
Roach range increase
Zerg building HP increase
My personal thoughts:
+ Show Spoiler +Barracks requiring supply depot is a necessary change, as the Terran macro mechanic, the orbital command, means the scvs cut to do a fast rax are negated.
Reaper speed being factory tech is unnecessary, as reapers will be overnerfed with the supply depot change.
Roach range increase is necessary in all matchups, but will make hydras considerably underused. Proposed changes: Hydra range upgrade ups Hydra's range to 7 instead of 6, and their starting HP should be reduced to compensate. (70-75) It would make them more effective as support units, and more effective at detering air units and drops, and would allow zerg to be able to micro against Terran and Protoss ranged units. In a straight up fight, Hydras will fair no better against Protoss or Terran units but in narrow chokes, except in this case the combination of roach/hydra will fare considerably better
Zerg building Hp increase is a direct result of the Marauder having such high DPS to armored. Proposed changes: Zerg building HP is increased only marginally, Marauders now only do regular damage (Without bonus damage) to structures. This would make marauder drops less effective against tech structures of all races. Combined with easily obtainable medivacs, this in my opinion is way too strong.
My proposed changes:
+ Show Spoiler +Changes to Terran as a whole:
Concussive shell research time increased to allow for more thought out agression from Terran players, as the Concussive shell upgrade is almost free at 50/50
Siege mode research time decreased heavily to allow for more tank based strategies in matchups other than TvT
Medivac build time increased for drop tech to be comparable to the other races.
Changes to Protoss as a whole:
Reduction of cost and build time for warp prism for more drop play.
Changes to Zerg as a whole:Overlord drop hatchery tech to encourage drop play and deal with cliffs easier
Burrow tier 1 with higher research time to encourage other races to get detection
1-2 Broodlings spawn when spinecrawlers die to strengthen defenses against unmicroed units (again, encouraging micro.)
What do you think should be changed to allow for better balance, more micro intensive games without causing a huge advantage for any race?
On a scale of 1 to 5, 5 being excellent, how would you rate Blizzard's balancing performance?
Poll: On a scale of 1 to 5, Blizzards Balance?4 Stars (38) 34% 1 Star (35) 31% 3 Stars (15) 13% 2 Stars (14) 12% 5 Stars (11) 10% 113 total votes Your vote: On a scale of 1 to 5, Blizzards Balance? (Vote): 1 Star
(Vote): 2 Stars
(Vote): 3 Stars
(Vote): 4 Stars
(Vote): 5 Stars
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On October 11 2010 08:53 TLOBrian wrote:
Barracks requiring supply depot is a necessary change, as the Terran macro mechanic, the orbital command, means the scvs cut to do a fast rax are negated.
Please explain to me how getting an orbital "negates" cutting SCV's to execute a cheese.
I'm going to be getting an orbital ANYWAY, so I'm still many SCV's short of where I should be had I not cheesed. These missing SCV's are in no way "negated" by a MULE that I would have at the same time anyway.
When you cheese and get an orbital, you aren't getting the orbital "faster" just because your supply count is lower. Generally it's going up at the same time as it normally would be (or even later), it's just that during the time when you would normally be building SCV's, you are making rax.
I never understood this bizarre logic of getting an orbital command while cheesing "negating" your cut SCV's.
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On October 11 2010 08:59 ltortoise wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2010 08:53 TLOBrian wrote:
Barracks requiring supply depot is a necessary change, as the Terran macro mechanic, the orbital command, means the scvs cut to do a fast rax are negated. Please explain to me how getting an orbital "negates" cutting SCV's to execute a cheese. I'm going to be getting an orbital ANYWAY, so I'm still many SCV's short of where I should be had I not cheesed. These missing SCV's are in no way "negated" by a MULE that I would have at the same time anyway. When you cheese and get an orbital, you aren't getting the orbital "faster" just because your supply count is lower. Generally it's going up at the same time as it normally would be (or even later), it's just that during the time when you would normally be building SCV's, you are making rax. I never understood this bizarre logic of getting an orbital command while cheesing "negating" your cut SCV's.
Scvs are less important than mules. Scvs harvest less minerals total than mules do, so the added boost of the mules means that you can produce more units than if you weren't to have it (obviously) but, the fact that other races workers have a higher value compared to scvs means that any fast rush tactic can easily become an even playing field even with minimal damage from the terran. Protoss's chronoboost will be spent of making units, and Zerg's larva will also be spent on making units so it's more advantageous than not to do cheese and early rushes as terran.
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Scvs are less important than mules. Scvs harvest less minerals total than mules do, so the added boost of the mules means that you can produce more units than if you weren't to have it (obviously) but, the fact that other races workers have a higher value compared to scvs means that any fast rush tactic can easily become an even playing field even with minimal damage from the terran. Protoss's chronoboost will be spent of making units, and Zerg's larva will also be spent on making units so it's more advantageous than not to do cheese and early rushes as terran.
These examples seem ridiculous.
If I cut 5 SCV's, then my income is simply that much lower than it would be if I hadn't cheesed. Protoss shouldn't have to CONSTANTLY chrono boost units to survive and a zerg shouldn't have to spend 100% larvae on units to survive. Their economy should already be greater than the Terran's by the time they scout the cheese, which should provide enough economy to continue to make workers and stay ahead of the Terran economy.
Show me some actual examples where a P or Z didn't simply overreact and I'll be convinced. Otherwise, I'm going to have to propose that you are essentially making things up.
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On October 11 2010 09:34 ltortoise wrote:Show nested quote +Scvs are less important than mules. Scvs harvest less minerals total than mules do, so the added boost of the mules means that you can produce more units than if you weren't to have it (obviously) but, the fact that other races workers have a higher value compared to scvs means that any fast rush tactic can easily become an even playing field even with minimal damage from the terran. Protoss's chronoboost will be spent of making units, and Zerg's larva will also be spent on making units so it's more advantageous than not to do cheese and early rushes as terran. These examples seem ridiculous. If I cut 5 SCV's, then my income is simply that much lower than it would be if I hadn't cheesed. Protoss shouldn't have to CONSTANTLY chrono boost units to survive and a zerg shouldn't have to spend 100% larvae on units to survive. Their economy should already be greater than the Terran's by the time they scout the cheese, which should provide enough economy to continue to make workers and stay ahead of the Terran economy. Show me some actual examples where a P or Z didn't simply overreact and I'll be convinced. Otherwise, I'm going to have to propose that you are essentially making things up.
You cut 5 SCV's but get Mules faster/sooner. 1 Mule is, afair, worth about 3 or 4 SCV's, so the economic hit to a terran player isn't nearly as high as it is to a toss or zerg player when currently going for some cheese at 7-10 supply
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I'm just going to jump in and add my thoughts. I have not read through all 86 pages here, and I could if I would, but I simply cannot go through and see if I am repeating someone else at the moment. This is something I feel very strongly about and I registered with TeamLiquid to have my voice heard on this issue. I've been a lurker here for about a year or so and I've owned the original SC, BW, and now SC2 pretty much since day one for each. I think that making a supply depot required before barracks is wrong on so many levels.
I know I'm not Blizzard, and they will write their lore as they will, but it seems to be a huge betrayal to the Terran race to require a supply depot before a barracks. Now I know this is a sequel, and I know "it's a different game" and that things change between games. However, this is a core gameplay paradigm they are dipping into now. Zerg and Protoss get to keep their core gameplay paradigm, but Terran is to be changed why? Oh, the reaper??? are you for real? I expect better from Blizzard on this. Blizzard is trying to save what I've seen many say is a completely fail idea. Now, while I'm still on the fence about the unit personally, I think there have got to be hundreds of better ways of balancing the Reaper then messing with a core game mechanic that has both lore and history behind it.
So what, between BW and SC2 the Dominion army goes, "Damn, son, now that I think about it we've been going about this all backwards! We ought to make sure we have SUPPLIES before we bunker rush YellOw three times in a row." I mean does it make any sense to mess with the history of one of the most tense and awesome cheesy rush plays in history? especially because they've f'ed up on a "brilliant and innovative idea"? Seriously, why would basic Terran technology devolve in four years just because of a slightly-overpowered-for-a-very-short-window-of-game-time unit? It seriously boggles my mind.
So ok, this is not an argument so much as an emotive rant, but please, Bliz, find some other way of balancing your baby. I think I saw someone mention the engineering bay. I say this is a fine idea. Make the repear require both a tech lab and an engineering bay (since it is not required for any other tech like the factory this is a perfect "punishment" requirement), not just for the nitro boost. You could also go back to having the Reaper's building attack be upgradeable, even if not the old idea of the D-8 charge. While re-tooling the repear, maybe even make it so that there's another upgrade making it useful for later game play. And make it a little less of a sort of lower-tiered vulture replacement. I get the whole let's take the vulture and firebat and make them the reaper and hellion so we can make a new game thing, but maybe they don't remember all of the Boxer/Fantasy/Flash/etc. moments where the vultures, not the firebats were the ones destroying tons and tons of workers. oh, and so they go and make the vulture attack tier 1.5 in SC2... so for this the rest of the entire Terran army and dynamic must suffer?
Yeah, I *really* expect better from Blizzard than this.
As to the rest, fine great balance away. I don't really care about what else they change, so long as it is not a core and fundamental tech (and lore) paradigm of a race. To do so is beyond silly. Leave 4, er, 6-pools, proxy 8rax, and proxy pylon/gateway alone.
And just in case anyone reading this is interested, I'm going to dedicate my first blog post to this subject when my three days of darkness are over. Hopefully I'll have calmed down enough by then to organize more of an argument.
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I disagree to the following..
Supply required before rax - this means no creative cheese (Cheese is an element of this game)
The only reason that TOSS need a supply before a rax is because they need pylons to build anywhere..
Reaper upgrade - Okay so Blizzard is saying reapers are imba.. Reapers are IMBA if you know how to micro them well at low level games. Once scouted, reapers are quite easy to deal with unless its something like a 5 rax all in reaper build.. The fact that you need a factory for the speed upgrade means using reapers in any type of normal push is useless.
These 2 upgrade suggestions are my main concerns.. It's like as if they're purposely trying to get rid of reapers. Who would consider using reapers after the 5 second increase and MORE nerfs to get the speed upgrade. I think its fine now since speedlings can own reapers if they get a decent surround..
However, I do agree zerg does need a slight buff and I like blizzard's proactiveness to balance this game
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I just don't understand most of the complaints about depo before rax even if I were going reapers. IMO the first building I would want to build (if not a depo) would be the refinery anyway. If I am constantly making scvs up to the point that gas goes down then depo will definately have to be next if not you are setting yourself up for an all in because your economy is going to be horrible.
In almost any build I do except for rax @8 my depo is always already finished by the time I want to build anything else whether that is a refinery engbay or rax.
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this sucks, FE as protoss is already too hard against zxerg now with additional range for the roach it will become impossible to hold.. -.-
1 base is just not as fun and requiring, but lets keep the game that way.. -.-
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With these changes it starts feeling more like BETA phase 3 than final.
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EPT
