On October 08 2010 11:58 Drowsy wrote:
I think they're overdoing it with the reaper rush nerf. I'd way rather see banshee cloak, or marauder godliness be dealt with.

Reapers are an annoying unit that doesn't add anything to the game other then frustration. They are not necessary for terran to be good. Nerfing marauders would be a much bigger blow.

Crichton

Japan196 Posts

October 08 2010 03:01 GMT

#1504

3) In late-game stalemate/base-trade situations, this could be a big problem; e.g., a Terran player has three command centers, but all their rax/depots have been taken out; even though they have plenty of supply, they'll have to built a depot before a rax. blegh. I suppose this might make up for being able to float buildings.

How do you have 'plenty of supply' if you don't have any Depots? This isn't going to change late-game at all.

jdr_

United States78 Posts

October 08 2010 03:03 GMT

#1505

On October 08 2010 01:20 AssuredVacancy wrote:
lol what.... barracks needed for depot hahahaaha
I think protosses are the ones sighing in relief.

Wow according to browder's stats, zerg is overpowered vs terran in all leagues!

If 38% of all players play Terran, and 22% of all players play zerg, that means that on the ladder, Zergs have more practice against Terrans, than Terrans have practice against Zerg.

So while most of Terrans matchups are TVT and TVP, Most of zergs matchups are ZVT and ZVP. That's the only reason the numbers are the way they are. Of course 90% of the problems with balance are the ladder maps not the actual units.

eLiE

Canada1039 Posts

October 08 2010 03:05 GMT

#1506

lol, they talk about how toss is op, and then come up with a list of zerg changes. i agree with all of them (esp roach range, haha, yeah!). fungal growth should have always stopped stalkers from blinking. this also looks like it's beating up terran a lot though. it's prob my league, but i don't feel that weak anymore. maybe it's the matchmaking, cause i should have been promoted a while ago, but bnet 0.2's taking its time.

thedeadhaji

39489 Posts

October 08 2010 03:08 GMT

#1507

On October 08 2010 01:21 GTR wrote:

Show nested quote +

This is stupid.

mcneebs

Canada391 Posts

October 08 2010 03:13 GMT

#1508

I genuinely do not understand the depot thing at all. They're saying I have to go

-depot
-rax
-depot
-rax
-depot
-rax?

I can't go

-depot
-rax
-rax
-depot
-rax?

Can't say I understand that at all if I'm reading it correctly.

rawb

United States252 Posts

October 08 2010 03:15 GMT

#1509

No. Barracks requires a supply depot like bunker requires a Barracks. You just need one in the tech path for barracks as opposed to starting your tech with barracks.

neobowman

Canada3324 Posts

October 08 2010 03:20 GMT

#1510

I honestly think the roach upgrade could be a bit much. The big problem though is that I think Blizzard is focusing too much on 2v2. Reapers are hardly even used anymore. Drops are the big problem in midgame TvZ.

Nub4ever

Canada1981 Posts

October 08 2010 03:23 GMT

#1511

So much for taking it slow... Double nerf reapers and multiple buffs to zerg :O zerg buffs are find nitro nerf is fine but... Depot prereq???!!! DEPOT PREREQ FOR BARRACKS??!!!!!111 ogod.

Voros

United States222 Posts

October 08 2010 03:30 GMT

#1512

Presumably Blizzard favors longer, macro-oriented games, as I see no other reasons for these changes. The two big changes (DBB and increased roach range) seem desperate, and it's far from clear that the developers have considered how massive an effect these changes will have on the early game.

The depot-before-barracks move utterly destroys proxied barracks and ensures that no games will end due to very early Terran pressure. Blizzard might as well implement a patch that prevents players from attacking before the four-minute mark or building cannons more than ten hexes away from a nexus. This isn't a balance change; it's removing a style of play from the Terran playbook.

The increase to roach range destroys reaper harass altogether; the additional nerf to reaper speed indicates that the designers have no idea what role this unit should play, as speed delayed that badly will make the unit as useless against Zerg as it is presently is against Protoss and Terran. Under what circumstances would I purchase Reaper speed if I have to construct a factory first? If Reapers can't be used for proxy cheese or in TvZ prior to the arrival of speed roaches, what exactly can they be used for? Is the reaper's new role that of a 50/50 scout who might get lucky and kill a worker or two?

If the developers want TvZ to feature even more marauders and banshees, they're certainly headed in the right direction.

SlayerOfYou

58 Posts

October 08 2010 03:30 GMT

#1513

On October 08 2010 01:43 Seam wrote:

Show nested quote +

Wait, then what are they supposed to change by?

If not numbers than what? Go by whichever race gets the most whine?

That is the point. After the 1.1 patch tvz was at 50%. But because of Zerg being the race with the most whiners they released a patch that seems a little too much. I honestly dont mind reapers not being a factor, all i used them for was scouting anyway. And as a terran personally i dont mind the Roach range that much as my unit comp is ususally marines mauraders medivacs and tanks. I do however feel sorry for protoss with the roach range upgrade as it will make their early expansions that much harder. Meh, i feel like the depo before raks thing seems retarded but as i play standard anyway n always do 10 depo 11 raks it doesnt really matter. However i feel like it is a little lame for those fun situations where ur base is destroyed and u r trying to make a come back and all u have is a bunch of lifted buildings and oh wait now i need to make a depo before making my tier 1 units again. Ohwel, not too many complaints to me except i am a bit concerned about those unsaid 'other changes' suposedly being applied with it. Just dont really feel as though the game needs that much to be changed. Maybe a little tweaking here n there.

Wunder

United Kingdom2950 Posts

October 08 2010 03:36 GMT

#1514

Wow, this sounds pretty intense. Nice changes that will impact team games a lot more than 1v1, but I do hope they do consider the MULE Cooldown in the next patch, as I think that's the most needed change for Terran macro to be brought more in line with Zerg/Toss. The depot before rax seems to be somewhat intelligent in that now you're preventing Terran from cheesing, which is welcome, but it also makes us a bit more vulnerable to more cheese if our depot/rax gets delayed by a few seconds...

Fungal Growth/Roach Range is very interesting and unfortunately with the huge Reaper nerfs I highly doubt we will ever see them used in early game, as Marauders are still much more useful in taking out buildings, and are more sturdy/armored. Poor Reaper.

MeteorRise

Canada611 Posts

October 08 2010 03:43 GMT

#1515

I think this is a good step for blizzard to go, because zerg macro is hands down harder than protoss or terran macro. The supply depot for rax seems somewhat awkward tho, because it means only zerg can get super fast attacking units.

But i think that the main problem with balance right now is the maps, imo they need better quality map makers and some new sweet maps in the pool right now.

Archmage

United States169 Posts

October 08 2010 03:44 GMT

#1516

Honestly, even though it may seem like overkill, I am okay with this. It'll give Zerg a lot more freedom to take an earlier expansion, while still allowing Terran to use their tech to do all sorts of harassment. Also, the roach buff will make 1 basing as Zerg a bit more viable. All in all, I think this adds a lot of versatility to ZvT. Reapers were never intended to be the Terran army, and don't worry. There's still plenty of stuff that Terran can do to bring out that inner Zerg rage!

Liquid`Jinro

Sweden33719 Posts

October 08 2010 03:45 GMT

#1517

On October 08 2010 11:20 fusihunter wrote:
Don't know why you're all complaining about Reaper speed coming from factory..... We need a lair for roach speed, and with jet packs you're still faster..

Because there is absolutely no reason to ever make speed reapers when you have a factory and could just make medivacs instead, and fill them up with units that can actually fight.

Its like if youd put lings and ultras on almost the same tier, and have the ultras cost almost the same as the lings.

Reapers will NEVER be used now - before speed upgrade they are completely useless and by the time you have a factory, zerg will have no problem defending the reapers, I am pretty sure, as you were completely unable to slow him down in the early game (no speed reapers remember?).

Oh in addition, reapers take FOREVER to build...

Somi

Pakistan123 Posts

October 08 2010 03:46 GMT

#1518

It just limits ONE/TWO of SEVERAL Terran openings, and just makes ONE of TWO Zerg openings bit more safer.

Tho I agree that Nitro should be left untouched or just 25/25 increase in cost..factory option just doesnt makes sense at all.

Tho in short term it'll just make Prot vs Terran even more skewed? I'm not sure, dun follow PvT.