EPTRandom Example:
Protoss goes FE
Zerg goes 3 hat gas (exp x2) - +6/7 hat hydra-lurk (no 4rt exp & only 2 gas)
It's 3hat-5hat variation or its "new" July BO ??
This BO its viable ???
[Q] JulyZerg ZvP Style ~
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woody_
Spain38 Posts
Random Example: Protoss goes FE Zerg goes 3 hat gas (exp x2) - +6/7 hat hydra-lurk (no 4rt exp & only 2 gas) It's 3hat-5hat variation or its "new" July BO ?? This BO its viable ??? | ||
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Athos
United States2484 Posts
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woody_
Spain38 Posts
On August 12 2009 08:07 Athos wrote: I can't understand anything you wrote other than Julyzerg.... Don't lame. Its serious thread  | ||
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Nevuk
United States16280 Posts
On August 12 2009 08:07 Athos wrote: I can't understand anything you wrote other than Julyzerg.... He's asking if it's viable to go 6-7 hatch hydra/lurk off 2 gas with 3 bases vs a FE toss. edit: if it is or not I'm not qualified to say, but part of the reason why Yarnc and July have untouchable matchups (vT and vP respectively) is their willingness to use really weird builds to brutally counter an opponent. Yarnc recently went 12 pool v Flash and didn't use anything but like 4 mutas to kill his new build. They're both really unpredictable and good at mind games in their matchups. Whether someone of a lower skill could use them on a consistent basis is a different question. | ||
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woody_
Spain38 Posts
On August 12 2009 08:21 Nevuk wrote: He's asking if it's viable to go 6-7 hatch hydra/lurk off 2 gas with 3 bases vs a FE toss. Thx. | ||
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jambonkingcool
Canada186 Posts
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GoAudio
Sweden400 Posts
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FortuneSyn
1826 Posts
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Manifesto7
Osaka27149 Posts
On August 12 2009 08:46 jambonkingcool wrote: I think that every build is viable as long as it makes you win.. You should just try it yourself, if you feel confident with this build and you're in control of the game, then go for it. This is how I play starcraft, and it's fun. No I'm not A+ This. On August 12 2009 09:11 RoSe. wrote: 3hat spire 5hat hydra play it right and you win. Not this. | ||
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Saracen
United States5139 Posts
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sHade]DaLToN
United States21 Posts
On August 12 2009 09:52 Saracen wrote: At the progamer level, there really doesn't seem to be a "standard build" atm. There's so much variation between each player, and in each player's games, as well. You see a lot of early lair tech nowadays (lurker or muta openings), and almost no one goes 5 hatch hydra anymore. In my opinion, the terran builds in TvP and TvT tend to be pretty standard, but PvZ is so reactive from the protoss perspective that anything "standard" about the build pretty much disappears after the ffe. Zerg usually has the most dynamic play given the nature of hatcheries (which make tech switches fast). | ||
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Gogleion
United States534 Posts
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Zapdos_Smithh
Canada2620 Posts
Best builds 2 gates and a robo after a nexus...BEST BUILD! Stork builds two stargates...STORK BUILD! Iris builds... seriously no And actually I am pretty sure he is being serious b/c I found the op hard to understand too | ||
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woody_
Spain38 Posts
On August 12 2009 13:17 resonance wrote: Yes obviously b/c julyzerg did it it's the JulyZerg ZvP build. Hell, let's just name every single variation of a build after a pro gamer.... Best builds 2 gates and a robo after a nexus...BEST BUILD! Stork builds two stargates...STORK BUILD! Iris builds... seriously no And actually I am pretty sure he is being serious b/c I found the op hard to understand too If you watch others Zerg pros play in ZvP you understand it.. they open in ZvP = 3 hat 5 hat. (Obviously P opens FE) July have the best win ratio in ZvP and don't use the "infamous" opening 3hat-5hat, goes to 4 hat gas to 7-8 hats or 3 hat gas to 7-8 hats every game. | ||
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woody_
Spain38 Posts
Thx!. <3 | ||
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hawk123
United States77 Posts
On August 12 2009 08:07 Athos wrote: I can't understand anything you wrote other than Julyzerg.... I agree with you.. | ||
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Failsafe
United States1298 Posts
woody_, the Julyzerg "Sauron" style is pretty difficult to play compared to "3 hat spire => 5 hat." It's worth noting that July was using the 6-7 hatchery "Sauron" style before FE Protoss became all the rage. Granted, July has adapted well to the coming of FE Protoss, but I don't see a lot of other pro Zerg players opting for the 6-7 hatchery style against FE. The reason that July's style is so effective for him, and yet so difficult, at least for others, is that July's style requires a very keen sense of timing and very strong micro. Of course this could be said of every pro game, but July's style in particular is punished when other players attempt it because it doesn't rely on the long strings of lurkers posted on hilltops that are so common among modern zergs (especially on heartbreak). On the contrary, July's style works very hard to punish the Protoss for every minor error, relying on the relentless Lair-level aggression that July is known for. In order to succeed with Julyzerg's style, you have to be great at identifying weaknesses in the Protoss style and then exploiting them. It is crucial that you be good at dodging storms and sniping HTs. It's also crucial that you identify when and where the Protoss will attempt to expand after he has taken his natural. The final essential ingredient is having strong macro timing so that you can have an army prepared at the moment when the Protoss is vulnerable (when the Protoss strategy is weakest and when he is trying to take new territory for a second expansion). The danger to July's Lair-oriented style is that storm can fry enormous quantities of zerg army at relatively little cost to the Protoss, so if you make a mistake in your aggression you can easily cost yourself the game. After one mismanaged attack, you'll have only a few lurkers and a lot of production capacity but very few static defensives to fall back on. If the Protoss still has a strong, intact army, he may be able to roll over you before your zerg blob can coalesce. On the other hand, the more passive, standard midgame ZvP has more of a defensive backbone, relying on lurkers and sunkens as well as scourge play and spore colonies. It's much easier to withstand storm because your lurkers can be positioned prior to the Protoss aggression. You'll also have the benefit of being able to place your army groups well in advance of his army. Thus you can minimize the damage that storm will do to you. This style is a LOT more forgiving and I recommend trying it out if you are new. You'll be playing more to survive with an intact economy until hive tech at which point you'll be able to abuse the great late game ZvP has to offer (and with any luck get the job done before reavers roll out) I find the July style ZvP to be a lot more entertaining, but I tend to lose with it more often. At around B- level on ICCUP I find the 5 hatchery style to be a lot more forgiving and rarely lose with it against an FE Protoss. On the other hand, it's easy to misplay July's style which requires a great deal of attention to detail throughout the entire game as you have to macro, micro and time most of your strategy with a good deal of accuracy | ||
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Nevuk
United States16280 Posts
On August 13 2009 00:25 Failsafe wrote: Such a bad group of responses. woody_, the Julyzerg "Sauron" style is pretty difficult to play compared to "3 hat spire => 5 hat." It's worth noting that July was using the 6-7 hatchery "Sauron" style before FE Protoss became all the rage. Granted, July has adapted well to the coming of FE Protoss, but I don't see a lot of other pro Zerg players opting for the 6-7 hatchery style against FE. The reason that July's style is so effective for him, and yet so difficult, at least for others, is that July's style requires a very keen sense of timing and very strong micro. Of course this could be said of every pro game, but July's style in particular is punished when other players attempt it because it doesn't rely on the long strings of lurkers posted on hilltops that are so common among modern zergs (especially on heartbreak). On the contrary, July's style works very hard to punish the Protoss for every minor error, relying on the relentless Lair-level aggression that July is known for. In order to succeed with Julyzerg's style, you have to be great at identifying weaknesses in the Protoss style and then exploiting them. It is crucial that you be good at dodging storms and sniping HTs. It's also crucial that you identify when and where the Protoss will attempt to expand after he has taken his natural. The final essential ingredient is having strong macro timing so that you can have an army prepared at the moment when the Protoss is vulnerable (when the Protoss strategy is weakest and when he is trying to take new territory for a second expansion). The danger to July's Lair-oriented style is that storm can fry enormous quantities of zerg army at relatively little cost to the Protoss, so if you make a mistake in your aggression you can easily cost yourself the game. After one mismanaged attack, you'll have only a few lurkers and a lot of production capacity but very few static defensives to fall back on. If the Protoss still has a strong, intact army, he may be able to roll over you before your zerg blob can coalesce. On the other hand, the more passive, standard midgame ZvP has more of a defensive backbone, relying on lurkers and sunkens as well as scourge play and spore colonies. It's much easier to withstand storm because your lurkers can be positioned prior to the Protoss aggression. You'll also have the benefit of being able to place your army groups well in advance of his army. Thus you can minimize the damage that storm will do to you. This style is a LOT more forgiving and I recommend trying it out if you are new. You'll be playing more to survive with an intact economy until hive tech at which point you'll be able to abuse the great late game ZvP has to offer (and with any luck get the job done before reavers roll out) I find the July style ZvP to be a lot more entertaining, but I tend to lose with it more often. At around B- level on ICCUP I find the 5 hatchery style to be a lot more forgiving and rarely lose with it against an FE Protoss. On the other hand, it's easy to misplay July's style which requires a great deal of attention to detail throughout the entire game as you have to macro, micro and time most of your strategy with a good deal of accuracy I've noticed from watching some July's recent games, especially his game vs Kal on heartbreak in gom that he holds a huge portion of his army in reserve and relies on p's difficult scouting to transition to endgame. He only brings his entire army to bear when he can get into a good position after the p has moved out. Also, he makes tons of lings in addition to all his hydras - at the end of that game, july had something like 140 lings and hive tech with defilers and ultra tech building up. That might explain the extra 2 hatcheries. For some reason, I feel like july's zvp style has an even stronger late game than 5 hatch hydra, but that it's a bit harder to get there and requires much finer timing as for the taking of expansions. | ||
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StarBrift
Sweden1761 Posts
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Failsafe
United States1298 Posts
July's play following those two initial blows was not spectacular. Don't mistake his contingency plans for his actual game plan. When he sacrificed his expansion at the 6 o'clock mineral only, that was a contingency move, not part of his master plan. His macro had been mistimed slightly so that his army was not as large as it could have been. Additionally, his lurkers and support were out of position due to bad intelligence (caused by Kal's good corsair play) and July didn't want to risk attacking the rather small protoss army. July slightly overplayed his early advantage by expanding and teching aggressively without bothering to place his army in the appropriate defensive posture. July could afford to sacrifice some units and his 6 o'clock expansion simply because he was already well ahead. But it's important recognize that July's reserve and patience were a consequence of his mistakes rather than a master stroke devised to destroy Kal | ||
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StorrZerg
United States13919 Posts
On August 13 2009 01:03 StarBrift wrote: The reason Julyzerg is good in ZvP is just becuase he has such a game sense in ZvP that he can switch his builds up almost freely. The build in itself is weaker and harder to learn but it's certainly useful. so true | ||
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Failsafe
United States1298 Posts
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Nevuk
United States16280 Posts
On August 13 2009 01:10 Failsafe wrote: To understand July's play in GOM's July vs Kal on Heartbreak it's important recognize that July secured a big advantage by sneaking his initial zerglings through the back path. He killed a good number of probes AND forced a cannon in Kal's main. July followed the zerglings by placing lurkers on Kal's cliff behind his natural, further delaying Kal's economy. At that point the game was virtually over. July's play following those two initial blows was not spectacular. Don't mistake his contingency plans for his actual game plan. When he sacrificed his expansion at the 6 o'clock mineral only, that was a contingency move, not part of his master plan. His macro had been mistimed slightly so that his army was not as large as it could have been. Additionally, his lurkers and support were out of position due to bad intelligence (caused by Kal's good corsair play) and July didn't want to risk attacking the rather small protoss army. July slightly overplayed his early advantage by expanding and teching aggressively without bothering to place his army in the appropriate defensive posture. July could afford to sacrifice some units and his 6 o'clock expansion simply because he was already well ahead. But it's important recognize that July's reserve and patience were a consequence of his mistakes rather than a master stroke devised to destroy Kal Ah, ok. I was wondering a bit about that game because it did seem like at times July was going to lose, but then you looked at the ling count and it was crazy. That's also the only recent series we have of him vs a decent pvz'er. | ||
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RaiZ
2813 Posts
On August 12 2009 11:42 Gogleion wrote: Not really. If you're constantly macroing out of 5 hatch hydra with only 2 gas, you will not have enough gas to produce any gas units from a 6th hatch, which is why 5 hatch hydra is so standard, or a 3 hatch lurk. You know, you don't have to build hydras only. You can easily save some gas up by building more glings and get +1 carapace instead of missile, since you may use them both in a mix. It's perfectly doable, hell even 8 hatches if you're whoring drone (read more than 12 per base, like 14 or 16) | ||
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Deletrious
United States458 Posts
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EvoChamber
France2505 Posts
On August 13 2009 00:25 Failsafe wrote: Such a bad group of responses. woody_, the Julyzerg "Sauron" style is pretty difficult to play compared to "3 hat spire => 5 hat." It's worth noting that July was using the 6-7 hatchery "Sauron" style before FE Protoss became all the rage. Granted, July has adapted well to the coming of FE Protoss, but I don't see a lot of other pro Zerg players opting for the 6-7 hatchery style against FE. The reason that July's style is so effective for him, and yet so difficult, at least for others, is that July's style requires a very keen sense of timing and very strong micro. Of course this could be said of every pro game, but July's style in particular is punished when other players attempt it because it doesn't rely on the long strings of lurkers posted on hilltops that are so common among modern zergs (especially on heartbreak). On the contrary, July's style works very hard to punish the Protoss for every minor error, relying on the relentless Lair-level aggression that July is known for. In order to succeed with Julyzerg's style, you have to be great at identifying weaknesses in the Protoss style and then exploiting them. It is crucial that you be good at dodging storms and sniping HTs. It's also crucial that you identify when and where the Protoss will attempt to expand after he has taken his natural. The final essential ingredient is having strong macro timing so that you can have an army prepared at the moment when the Protoss is vulnerable (when the Protoss strategy is weakest and when he is trying to take new territory for a second expansion). The danger to July's Lair-oriented style is that storm can fry enormous quantities of zerg army at relatively little cost to the Protoss, so if you make a mistake in your aggression you can easily cost yourself the game. After one mismanaged attack, you'll have only a few lurkers and a lot of production capacity but very few static defensives to fall back on. If the Protoss still has a strong, intact army, he may be able to roll over you before your zerg blob can coalesce. On the other hand, the more passive, standard midgame ZvP has more of a defensive backbone, relying on lurkers and sunkens as well as scourge play and spore colonies. It's much easier to withstand storm because your lurkers can be positioned prior to the Protoss aggression. You'll also have the benefit of being able to place your army groups well in advance of his army. Thus you can minimize the damage that storm will do to you. This style is a LOT more forgiving and I recommend trying it out if you are new. You'll be playing more to survive with an intact economy until hive tech at which point you'll be able to abuse the great late game ZvP has to offer (and with any luck get the job done before reavers roll out) I find the July style ZvP to be a lot more entertaining, but I tend to lose with it more often. At around B- level on ICCUP I find the 5 hatchery style to be a lot more forgiving and rarely lose with it against an FE Protoss. On the other hand, it's easy to misplay July's style which requires a great deal of attention to detail throughout the entire game as you have to macro, micro and time most of your strategy with a good deal of accuracy Please post more everywhere. | ||
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SkelA
Macedonia13032 Posts
Just watch Best vs July osl final.... Best went so downhill in pvz after that series he got completly smashed and never really come back after that. He is my favorite z player to watch him playing vs p with JD coming 2nd. | ||
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x89titan
Philippines1130 Posts
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StorrZerg
United States13919 Posts
On August 13 2009 04:03 SkelA wrote: July is so good in zvp because he is doing such unpredictable and ballsy builds. He can macro your ass off with 3 hatch spire into 5 hatch hidra or just win you with 4 pool or just drone ling rush you or fail 5 pool into win LOL! (watch gom vs some toss). Because of this every toss is at disadvantage even before the game is started because of the mind games. Just watch Best vs July osl final.... Best went so downhill in pvz after that series he got completly smashed and never really come back after that. He is my favorite z player to watch him playing vs p with JD coming 2nd. best lost all confidence after that match. july is a beast when it comes to prepping for a box | ||
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woody_
Spain38 Posts
On August 13 2009 00:25 Failsafe wrote: Such a bad group of responses. woody_, the Julyzerg "Sauron" style is pretty difficult to play compared to "3 hat spire => 5 hat." It's worth noting that July was using the 6-7 hatchery "Sauron" style before FE Protoss became all the rage. Granted, July has adapted well to the coming of FE Protoss, but I don't see a lot of other pro Zerg players opting for the 6-7 hatchery style against FE. The reason that July's style is so effective for him, and yet so difficult, at least for others, is that July's style requires a very keen sense of timing and very strong micro. I saw JulyZerg play "Sauron Style" only 2 or 3 games. Sauron Style means = mass exps & 3 evol chams (mele, ranged,caparace). Yeah, i believe that 6 hats 3 bases its stronger than 3hat 5 hat (best economy, best timming, more easy to play, more agressive). Don't requiere strong micro IMO. It's more strategic game based in early agression and pressure ***Example MetaGame: Protoss Opening FE Zerg 9 pool speedling Opening double Expand Zerg atempt to runby Protoss build 2-3 canons and well placed simcity or die, if sim city well placed dont attack and use lings to kills scout probes Zerg goes +1 hat gas (4 hats total) Protoss goes standard Stargate-Ciudadel-Templar Tech-Zealot Speed Archon +1 attack Zerg build easy hydraden and hydra speed, when Lair finishes -> tech Lurkers & ranged hydras Protoss scout Zerg bases, see Hydras, tech Psonic Storm Zerg after tech lurkers, morph 4-5 lurkers to defend bases, some sunkens, Spire, +3/4/6 hats Protoss try to push or try to expand (zerg defence=lings,lurkers,hydras) Zerg build 11 mutalisk and try to harras protoss bases Protoss try to defence Zerg build mass hydralisk & lurkers, 1 evolution cham +1 caparace, overlord speed Protoss try to expand or attack Zerg have over9000 hydras... Protoss have over9000 templars/gons/zealots... Go battle~ After attack protoss and zerg lose their army, zerg build over9000 hydras in few minutes and protoss dont build enough army. Zerg attacks and kill one or two Protoss Expansions, also double expand & contain main base Protoss with lurkers ... Its only theory. | ||
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ProoM
Lithuania1741 Posts
On August 12 2009 08:46 jambonkingcool wrote: I think that every build is viable as long as it makes you win.. You should just try it yourself, if you feel confident with this build and you're in control of the game, then go for it. This is how I play starcraft, and it's fun. No I'm not A+ Good BO execution does not give you auto-win, not even at ICCUP D level. Well unless you are protoss ;]. on topic: In the vid you showed he went mass hydra with only 2-3 lurkers. I think he got ~7 hatcheries because he wanted to be safe that he wont slow down hydra production even if one or two of his hatcheries will get killed. Also this count of hatcheries allows to rebuild lost drones (ht, reavers) really really quickly. However, Julyzerg isn't like other zerg players, he has his own style, some may call it old school, some may call it revolutionizing builds, but one thing is clear - July doesn't allow his opponents to prepare for whatever he's gonna do, because he never plays standart and he never repeats 2 strategies in a row. | ||
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ProoM
Lithuania1741 Posts
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Ganfei
Taiwan1439 Posts
On August 12 2009 13:17 resonance wrote: Yes obviously b/c julyzerg did it it's the JulyZerg ZvP build. Hell, let's just name every single variation of a build after a pro gamer.... Best builds 2 gates and a robo after a nexus...BEST BUILD! Stork builds two stargates...STORK BUILD! Iris builds... seriously no And actually I am pretty sure he is being serious b/c I found the op hard to understand too Ummm he's saying JulyZerg...because JulyZerg used it. Lighten the fuck up. How you want him to describe it? Anonymous fat guy playing zerg @ progamer level build? | ||
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Bearigator
United States233 Posts
On August 14 2009 16:20 NoobsOfWrath wrote: Ummm he's saying JulyZerg...because JulyZerg used it. Lighten the fuck up. How you want him to describe it? Anonymous fat guy playing zerg @ progamer level build? Actually yeah. That thread title would be terrific. | ||
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RebirthOfLeGenD
USA5860 Posts
Failsafe those were some awesome posts. I also agree with the sentiment of playing for fun as opposed to all out victory. If I play the same every single game I get really bored, which leads to me quitting for a while, playing BGH or UMSing. When you play for fun it opens your mind up to off the wall strategies that can undoubtedly win games especially in BoX series. I remember I was playing with a B+ player (I am only C/C- rank in 1on1) and I just decided to do something retarded I had been working on that set me up for a nice mid game if it failed. It was a half cheese build, but it was so effective that I managed to beat someone multiple times my skill level I also had a lot more fun doing that than a standard game, the build involved heavy heavy hydra micro with some macro mixed in. Anyway :D My point is to play for fun, and make it win. In lower ranks you have the freedom to make a lot of things work that can't work at the highest levels. Yeah sure, Koreans are insane and if you don't stay within certain extents of the norm you will get raped, but we aren't progamers on TV. If I want to Bio/nuke rush vs a P I can do it and I might even be able to pull it off with some practice. | ||
Chill
Calgary25980 Posts
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