EPTOn May 31 2009 14:16 Xeris wrote:
yes they do.
just because LeBron can make people around him better doesn't make him the better player. think about the criteria you can possibly use to define "good player" ... I think there are 3 different ways you can look at it:
(1) Winning - whoever wins the most is the best player
(2) Individual Skill - whoever has the most skill is the best player
(3) "Teammate" - whoever makes others better as a result of him being there is the best player
LeBron can take #3 certainly, almost nobody disputes that. But, is he the most skilled player? No. Nobody who knows the game of basketball would think that LeBron is more skilled than Kobe, it's not even an argument. Also, has LeBron won more than Kobe? No. Kobe would take #1 and #2. I don't know how you can argue that.
Let's look at a few things:
- LeBron has CRUMBLED in these kinds of pressure situations in the playoffs where expectations are high for him to produce. He has had 3-4 really memorable games in the playoffs. 1) 45 points against Detoit in East Finals 2007, 2) Game 5 vs Orlando, 3) Game 7 vs Boston last year where he had 47. Aside from those games (please don't count game 2 of Orlando that was 1 lucky ass shot after he played terribly the entire 4th quarter), he hasn't willed many wins. Where was LeBron in the finals against the Spurs? Nowhere.
- LeBron gets some INSANE stats but it's because he does EVERYTHING for his team. Think he'll get 40/9/8 on the Lakers? Nope.. he'd probably be getting Kobe's numbers. Why? The Lakers have 3 people who can easily average ~10 rebounds per game (Odom, Gasol, Bynum) so LeBron wouldn't get as many rebounds. The Lakers have Walton, Fisher, Farmar, and Odom who are pretty solid passers and each can get 2-4 assists/game... LeBron wouldn't get as many assists. There are like 8 people on the Lakers who could potentially score ~10/game so he wouldn't get as many points either.
If you think about it the fact that Kobe can average 30/5/5 on that team is fucking amazing. I'm not downplaying LeBron's stats either, because obviously nobody has done that ever except Big O, and I doubt Kobe would even get those numbers if he was on Clevland. But really, who gives a shit if you have amazing stats if you're not winning?
LeBron got crazy numbers, but he's eliminated. Kobe's numbers aren't as good but he's in the finals. You can say "Kobe's supporting cast is better"... have you watched the Laker games in the playoffs? The Laker supporting cast played approximately TWO good games. Kobe pretty much willed every other win by himself. LeBron's supporting cast played well for 2 games too... they won game 5, and today they got raped even though Mo Williams, Delonte West and Varajao played really strong games.
You can call me a Kobe fanboy if you want but if you take a step back and actually look at who produces results you will see the "who's better" question is and has been answered for quite awhile. I really can't see ANY legitimate argument for LeBron being better aside from "he makes other people better"
Except here's the thing: if he's so good at making other people better why hasn't he been able to do it when it counts? If Kobe's so selfish and doesn't make others better the way LeBron does... why have the Lakers supporting cast started picking it up at just the right moment to make the push to the finals? Why has Kobe been able to get more wins (against MUCH harder competition) by himself than LeBron (even though LeBron has 10x better stats?).
Look at the evidence and the question answers itself.
Maybe now the media will get LeBron's nuts off their collective chin. 66 wins in the season doesn't mean shit if you can't beat the first real opponent you're faced off against in the playoffs.
yes they do.
just because LeBron can make people around him better doesn't make him the better player. think about the criteria you can possibly use to define "good player" ... I think there are 3 different ways you can look at it:
(1) Winning - whoever wins the most is the best player
(2) Individual Skill - whoever has the most skill is the best player
(3) "Teammate" - whoever makes others better as a result of him being there is the best player
LeBron can take #3 certainly, almost nobody disputes that. But, is he the most skilled player? No. Nobody who knows the game of basketball would think that LeBron is more skilled than Kobe, it's not even an argument. Also, has LeBron won more than Kobe? No. Kobe would take #1 and #2. I don't know how you can argue that.
Let's look at a few things:
- LeBron has CRUMBLED in these kinds of pressure situations in the playoffs where expectations are high for him to produce. He has had 3-4 really memorable games in the playoffs. 1) 45 points against Detoit in East Finals 2007, 2) Game 5 vs Orlando, 3) Game 7 vs Boston last year where he had 47. Aside from those games (please don't count game 2 of Orlando that was 1 lucky ass shot after he played terribly the entire 4th quarter), he hasn't willed many wins. Where was LeBron in the finals against the Spurs? Nowhere.
- LeBron gets some INSANE stats but it's because he does EVERYTHING for his team. Think he'll get 40/9/8 on the Lakers? Nope.. he'd probably be getting Kobe's numbers. Why? The Lakers have 3 people who can easily average ~10 rebounds per game (Odom, Gasol, Bynum) so LeBron wouldn't get as many rebounds. The Lakers have Walton, Fisher, Farmar, and Odom who are pretty solid passers and each can get 2-4 assists/game... LeBron wouldn't get as many assists. There are like 8 people on the Lakers who could potentially score ~10/game so he wouldn't get as many points either.
If you think about it the fact that Kobe can average 30/5/5 on that team is fucking amazing. I'm not downplaying LeBron's stats either, because obviously nobody has done that ever except Big O, and I doubt Kobe would even get those numbers if he was on Clevland. But really, who gives a shit if you have amazing stats if you're not winning?
LeBron got crazy numbers, but he's eliminated. Kobe's numbers aren't as good but he's in the finals. You can say "Kobe's supporting cast is better"... have you watched the Laker games in the playoffs? The Laker supporting cast played approximately TWO good games. Kobe pretty much willed every other win by himself. LeBron's supporting cast played well for 2 games too... they won game 5, and today they got raped even though Mo Williams, Delonte West and Varajao played really strong games.
You can call me a Kobe fanboy if you want but if you take a step back and actually look at who produces results you will see the "who's better" question is and has been answered for quite awhile. I really can't see ANY legitimate argument for LeBron being better aside from "he makes other people better"
Except here's the thing: if he's so good at making other people better why hasn't he been able to do it when it counts? If Kobe's so selfish and doesn't make others better the way LeBron does... why have the Lakers supporting cast started picking it up at just the right moment to make the push to the finals? Why has Kobe been able to get more wins (against MUCH harder competition) by himself than LeBron (even though LeBron has 10x better stats?).
Look at the evidence and the question answers itself.
Maybe now the media will get LeBron's nuts off their collective chin. 66 wins in the season doesn't mean shit if you can't beat the first real opponent you're faced off against in the playoffs.
Seriously? Kobe wills the Lakers to every win except TWO? That is laughable with Gasol and Ariza playing absolutely top level throughout the playoffs (Odom and Bynum have sucked it up). Kobe is, imo, the best player right now due to his ability to hit the outside shot that Lebron still lacks consistency with. After this post season though, it is completely unfair to Lebron to say he can't be a jump shooter since he he has done it every single night. The Cavs completely crumbled when Lebron needed them the most, but you can't really fault them for not having an answer for Dwight (Big Z? Verajao? Ben Wallace? Please...). If Kobe and Lebron switched places, could you see the Lakers in the finals and the Cavs with an early exit? I don't see that being a ridiculous scenario at all.
