imo i think kobe supporters are reluctant to hand over the title of best player in the nba to a 24yo kid when kobe is the best player of his generation and should have 2+ mvps (nash should give him one of his) and is still in his prime. no one isn't saying that kobe isn't good, he's probably the most skilled player ever. but imo lebron as an athlete is truly on another level and that it just pushes him over the edge. lebron is the wing version of shaq, who is just plain bigger and stronger than everyone and it gave him a massive edge over everyone he played against and he won 4 rings, 3 when he was the dominant player. there's a reason bball is a freakshow of athletic talent, it's the biggest advantage you can possibly have in basketball. and lebron is a freak among freaks. of course lebron's physical advantage shouldn't detract from his value on the court, you'd have to put an asterisk next to every player who ever exploited their physical talent to succeed. how about saying iverson was only good cos he was quick?
here's the criteria i'm using when i say lebron is better: "whoever has the greater positive effect on a basketball team in terms of the team winning is the better player", in a team sport this is all that matters. obviously this can be affected by team or game circumstances, but i think on average lebron makes teams better than kobe does if you swap their best wing player
i think there's an argument for lebron straight up being a better scorer regardless of his other talents anyway. lebron's team-carrying ability shouldn't really be questioned right after he averages 39pts while shooting just under 50% from the field, while getting minimal help from inconsistent teammates and going right at the best defensive player in basketball and getting him in foul trouble. that is so ridiculously impressive. it's hard to appreciate since they lost the series but that performance was amazing, and he certainly didn't do it through a random streak of hot jumpshooting. lebron's 25/7/7 in gm7 will hardly go down as an epic chokejob, it just didn't live up to the ridiculous 5 games preceding it. so far lebrons record is pretty good as far as clutch play goes. oh and the fact that he's been carrying an nba team since he was 19
kobe is an amazingly skilled scorer, and he has to be to even compare with lebron. he doesn't get half his points from just beasting people like lebron does. i think this makes him more skilled, but not better. he'll never be able to score as easily as lebron because the shots kobe takes are much harder than the ones lebron takes. lebron is clearly a much worse shooter and far less skilled offensively yet he still shoots a higher percentage. even aside from his scoring, lebron has a greater ability to intimidate people physically, a greater ability to put big men in foul trouble etc. these things are hugely important intangibles. the fact that lebron is a versatile player with good vision and passing skills only enhances his value, he knows when he can get his teammates easy points, something kobe does with far less frequency. this is not even counting the advantages having a dominant player on the floor does for a basketball team
you can say that kobe's won championship, but they aren't really comparable to anything lebron has done because they were with shaq. when he had to lead a team himself (during his absolute prime) in 3yrs he missed the playoffs once and got knocked out 1st round twice. no one thought kobe could carry those scrubs to the championship, but lebron is expected to carry his team? lebron's ridiculousness make that team winning it all without much help an actual possibility even though in every single playoff game lebron's ever played the entire defensive scheme of the opposite team is geared towards stopping him. when kobe has won series, he's had players who can score without him setting them up like shaq and gasol who take a huge load off kobe's shoulders. this cannot be underestimated, even jordan needed pippen. lebron has mo williams, usually a good shooter, but he doesn't create good shots for himself very often. the next best creator on the cavs is delonte west who's nothing special. the lakers can blow teams out when kobe has a quiet 20 because the rest of the team can get going far more regularly than lebrons teammates can, none of the cavs are great passers or ballmovers whereas kobe's teammates have the talent to score fluidly without him. i don't think kobe's rings or playoff success give him the edge
lebron has done decently so far anyway, he was only 22 with a pretty substandard group of players (sasha pavlovic, larry hughes, drew gooden and Z) when cavs made the finals in 2007. they got owned because spurs are really good, and lebrons jumpshot wasn't there yet. spurs packed the paint and cavs bricked their way to getting swept. but he got there. as a 22yo. with crap teammates. worth thinking about imo. heres kobe's starting teammates in 2007 where he got knocked out 1st round vs phx: farmar, walton, odom, kwame brown. that's a craptastic team too, but are they really that much worse than what lebron was working with? this was 2 years ago, lebron has improved from ages 22-24 whereas kobe is probably at a similar level (and may even have slipped a little)
i totally disagree that kobe hasn't had help this playoffs. gasol owning the boards is one of the laker's biggest advantages in these playoffs series and odom played well vs utah, and showed up bigtime the last few games. ariza has been solid, shannon brown solid, bynums had an ok game here and there. even fisher overachieved for a few games there. you gotta realise that those guys don't even NEED to play well to help the team, having the threat of gasol and bynum down low forces defenses to play differently than they would with only 1 player to worry about
kobe might be the better basketball player but lebron is better at basketball and for me that makes him the best
Kobe is an amazing scorer but lebron is more natural all around which to me would make him the better basketball player. Lebron is doing much better for himself at this age than kobe was at the same age. Kobe had Shaq which took away any double team on him and we all know what kobe can do one on one. I always felt that kobe could never win a championship without shaq and i think that will stay true in these finals as well.
Um. LeBron got to the finals in the Eastern conference, which was absolutely HORRIBLE a few years ago. The East this year was good.. last year it was average, in 2007 and earlier it was garbage. Congrats! LeBron got to the finals in a disgustingly bad Eastern Conference, then got so completely raped in the Finals that nobody even cared enough to watch the games.
Personally I think Kobe nearly beating a 60 win Phoenix team all by himself is about as impressive as LeBron getting to the finals.
It is true it's everyone's opinion who they think is the best, but just because you think someone is better doesn't mean it's true. Again as I said... LeBron will be better someday, but not yet.
On May 31 2009 22:56 gemini24 wrote: Kobe is an amazing scorer but lebron is more natural all around which to me would make him the better basketball player. Lebron is doing much better for himself at this age than kobe was at the same age. Kobe had Shaq which took away any double team on him and we all know what kobe can do one on one. I always felt that kobe could never win a championship without shaq and i think that will stay true in these finals as well.
And Shaq could never win a championship without an All-Star SG.
On June 01 2009 00:06 Xeris wrote: Um. LeBron got to the finals in the Eastern conference, which was absolutely HORRIBLE a few years ago. The East this year was good.. last year it was average, in 2007 and earlier it was garbage. Congrats! LeBron got to the finals in a disgustingly bad Eastern Conference, then got so completely raped in the Finals that nobody even cared enough to watch the games.
Personally I think Kobe nearly beating a 60 win Phoenix team all by himself is about as impressive as LeBron getting to the finals.
It is true it's everyone's opinion who they think is the best, but just because you think someone is better doesn't mean it's true. Again as I said... LeBron will be better someday, but not yet.
They both have their moments. Lebron basically beat the Pistons that year with a bit of help from Gibson, but his team was terrible. The East was terrible, but the Cavs just matched up especially poorly with SA. The Pistons probably could have given the Spurs a 6 or 7 game series again.
the only way for you to prove other ways is to trade those two and have their teams clash." That doesn't solve anything, because then it is no longer the better player, but the better team winning. Unless, of course, one player consistently wins on both teams, but then he would probably already be accepted as the best player.
On May 31 2009 21:05 no_comprender wrote:
here's the criteria i'm using when i say lebron is better: "whoever has the greater positive effect on a basketball team in terms of the team winning is the better player", in a team sport this is all that matters. obviously this can be affected by team or game circumstances, but i think on average lebron makes teams better than kobe does if you swap their best wing player
This is exactly what happened in the Olympics, Labron failed and failed, Kobe tried once and won. it's basically the same talent pool. Base on your own logics, you have no choice to accept Kobe to be the better player because Labron without Kobe did not take gold. Why do you think in the last 10 minutes of the gold metal game do team usa let kobe play the point instead of Labron? Who thinks who is better? Labron thinks Kobe is better, coach thinks Kobe is better, Kobe knew he was better. And Kobe proved it with results like Gold metal around his neck, and 3 rings on his fingers.
Like you said basketball considers skills on both ends, even if you argue they are even in the offensive end, however in the defensive end I proved with stats that Labron's team is weaker than Kobe's Lakers. I am not looking at individual stats for blocks or steals, i'm looking at team defense, points given up per game in playoff average. go back 2 pages you will spot that post i made that argument. In conclusion Kobe's team prevents Denver's offensive from scoring more than Denver's playoff points per game average. Labron's team failed at defending the Magics, resulting in the magics scoring more points than their playoff average when they played vs the cavs. The facts are all there man.
The truth hurts, I know, maybe in few more years labron, but now he is not there along side Kobe.
On June 01 2009 00:06 Xeris wrote: Um. LeBron got to the finals in the Eastern conference, which was absolutely HORRIBLE a few years ago. The East this year was good.. last year it was average, in 2007 and earlier it was garbage. Congrats! LeBron got to the finals in a disgustingly bad Eastern Conference, then got so completely raped in the Finals that nobody even cared enough to watch the games.
Personally I think Kobe nearly beating a 60 win Phoenix team all by himself is about as impressive as LeBron getting to the finals.
It is true it's everyone's opinion who they think is the best, but just because you think someone is better doesn't mean it's true. Again as I said... LeBron will be better someday, but not yet.
the pistons lebron beat that year were ben wallace shy of the pistons that the lakers lost to in 2004, when they had kobe/shaq/payton/malone, then the team breaks down because of chemistry issues caused in part by kobe. obviously 2004 ben wallace brings a lot to the table, but the rest of their players were a few years wiser and those pistons were still a good team when lebron beat them. i still have no idea how those lakers managed to lose in 2004
i think lebron's effort vs this magic team is every bit as impressive than kobe's vs the 2006 suns, where lakers couldn't close it out after going up 3-1. in this series lebron carried a bunch of guys on offense who did arguably less than kobes teammates did in 2006. lebron had more pressure on him and put up better numbers vs a far better defensive team. the lakers lost in 5 the next year too
another salient comparison you could point to was that lebrons cavs took the 2008 celtics to 7 games and kobe's lakers lost in 6. hardly conclusive proof, but theres no way lebrons teammates even compare to kobe's last year (no mo williams for one, wally szczerbiak starting). of course the cavs could defend the celts and the lakers couldn't, that had a lot to do with cavs doing a good job on pierce, ray allen chucking bricks all series didn't hurt either
rei i don't even understand half of what you're saying and it's spelled lebron wtf. anyway the gold medal game was won more by dwyane wade than anyone else and just because kobe took some key shots doesn't mean he's the best player. he's the best clutch shooter though and clearly wanted the responsibility more than anyone else. lebron not dominating those games says just as much for his willingness to defer than kobe being better. they could've given it to anyone on that team, they can all score. there's no way lebron pissess off kobe royally by taking the ball out of his hands when they all know kobe considers himself the best and wants his peers to know it. besides most media types point to lebron's improvements THIS season as the things that vaulted him to being the best
i have no idea what you're talking with regards to lakers being the better defensive team than the cavs. even the most rabid lakers fanboy wouldn't claim that (although they might if the lakers beat the magic), cavs were the best defensive team in the league during the regular season (yeah doesn't matter but worth pointing out), orlando shot 40% from 3 and cavs couldn't guard dwight howard. that is a really tough nut to crack. favorable team matchups don't reflect on the individual value of players. anyway kobe isn't shutting as many people down these days, stars can't play lockdown d all game and carry the load offensively. they both made the all defensive team anyway, lebron is bigger and more versatile on defense and has more intimidation/random block factor all game long, whereas kobe is the guy you want guarding the oppositions top guy at the end of the game. just call it a wash, neither of them are as good defensively as people think they are
Olympics allows more zones, and I think they're less inclined to call fouls on the drives that get lebron to the line. Note how Chris Bosh was more effective in international competition than Dwight Howard. Jump shooters have more value. Kobe's a better jump shooter.
On June 01 2009 00:06 Xeris wrote: Personally I think Kobe nearly beating a 60 win Phoenix team all by himself is about as impressive as LeBron getting to the finals.
It is true it's everyone's opinion who they think is the best, but just because you think someone is better doesn't mean it's true. Again as I said... LeBron will be better someday, but not yet.
I am not sure how much better Lebron will be unless his teammates change and that opens up chances for him to become more dominant. His skills are already at the top, and obviously so is his athleticism.
Speaking of the Phoenix series it reminds me that Barkley and others say Kobe not scoring much in the second half (edit: game 7, after scoring a lot in the first half) was a plot to expose his teammates for sucking, and also that Kobe sucked for not shaking any Suns' hands. :o
Have to wait until freaking Thursday for another game Q_______Q
On May 31 2009 22:56 gemini24 wrote: Kobe is an amazing scorer but lebron is more natural all around which to me would make him the better basketball player. Lebron is doing much better for himself at this age than kobe was at the same age. Kobe had Shaq which took away any double team on him and we all know what kobe can do one on one. I always felt that kobe could never win a championship without shaq and i think that will stay true in these finals as well.
Hadn't kobe already won 3 championships by now at lebrons age?
On May 31 2009 21:05 no_comprender wrote: imo i think kobe supporters are reluctant to hand over the title of best player in the nba to a 24yo kid when kobe is the best player of his generation and should have 2+ mvps (nash should give him one of his) and is still in his prime. no one isn't saying that kobe isn't good, he's probably the most skilled player ever. but imo lebron as an athlete is truly on another level and that it just pushes him over the edge. lebron is the wing version of shaq, who is just plain bigger and stronger than everyone and it gave him a massive edge over everyone he played against and he won 4 rings, 3 when he was the dominant player. there's a reason bball is a freakshow of athletic talent, it's the biggest advantage you can possibly have in basketball. and lebron is a freak among freaks. of course lebron's physical advantage shouldn't detract from his value on the court, you'd have to put an asterisk next to every player who ever exploited their physical talent to succeed. how about saying iverson was only good cos he was quick?
here's the criteria i'm using when i say lebron is better: "whoever has the greater positive effect on a basketball team in terms of the team winning is the better player", in a team sport this is all that matters. obviously this can be affected by team or game circumstances, but i think on average lebron makes teams better than kobe does if you swap their best wing player
i think there's an argument for lebron straight up being a better scorer regardless of his other talents anyway. lebron's team-carrying ability shouldn't really be questioned right after he averages 39pts while shooting just under 50% from the field, while getting minimal help from inconsistent teammates and going right at the best defensive player in basketball and getting him in foul trouble. that is so ridiculously impressive. it's hard to appreciate since they lost the series but that performance was amazing, and he certainly didn't do it through a random streak of hot jumpshooting. lebron's 25/7/7 in gm7 will hardly go down as an epic chokejob, it just didn't live up to the ridiculous 5 games preceding it. so far lebrons record is pretty good as far as clutch play goes. oh and the fact that he's been carrying an nba team since he was 19
kobe is an amazingly skilled scorer, and he has to be to even compare with lebron. he doesn't get half his points from just beasting people like lebron does. i think this makes him more skilled, but not better. he'll never be able to score as easily as lebron because the shots kobe takes are much harder than the ones lebron takes. lebron is clearly a much worse shooter and far less skilled offensively yet he still shoots a higher percentage. even aside from his scoring, lebron has a greater ability to intimidate people physically, a greater ability to put big men in foul trouble etc. these things are hugely important intangibles. the fact that lebron is a versatile player with good vision and passing skills only enhances his value, he knows when he can get his teammates easy points, something kobe does with far less frequency. this is not even counting the advantages having a dominant player on the floor does for a basketball team
you can say that kobe's won championship, but they aren't really comparable to anything lebron has done because they were with shaq. when he had to lead a team himself (during his absolute prime) in 3yrs he missed the playoffs once and got knocked out 1st round twice. no one thought kobe could carry those scrubs to the championship, but lebron is expected to carry his team? lebron's ridiculousness make that team winning it all without much help an actual possibility even though in every single playoff game lebron's ever played the entire defensive scheme of the opposite team is geared towards stopping him. when kobe has won series, he's had players who can score without him setting them up like shaq and gasol who take a huge load off kobe's shoulders. this cannot be underestimated, even jordan needed pippen. lebron has mo williams, usually a good shooter, but he doesn't create good shots for himself very often. the next best creator on the cavs is delonte west who's nothing special. the lakers can blow teams out when kobe has a quiet 20 because the rest of the team can get going far more regularly than lebrons teammates can, none of the cavs are great passers or ballmovers whereas kobe's teammates have the talent to score fluidly without him. i don't think kobe's rings or playoff success give him the edge
lebron has done decently so far anyway, he was only 22 with a pretty substandard group of players (sasha pavlovic, larry hughes, drew gooden and Z) when cavs made the finals in 2007. they got owned because spurs are really good, and lebrons jumpshot wasn't there yet. spurs packed the paint and cavs bricked their way to getting swept. but he got there. as a 22yo. with crap teammates. worth thinking about imo. heres kobe's starting teammates in 2007 where he got knocked out 1st round vs phx: farmar, walton, odom, kwame brown. that's a craptastic team too, but are they really that much worse than what lebron was working with? this was 2 years ago, lebron has improved from ages 22-24 whereas kobe is probably at a similar level (and may even have slipped a little)
i totally disagree that kobe hasn't had help this playoffs. gasol owning the boards is one of the laker's biggest advantages in these playoffs series and odom played well vs utah, and showed up bigtime the last few games. ariza has been solid, shannon brown solid, bynums had an ok game here and there. even fisher overachieved for a few games there. you gotta realise that those guys don't even NEED to play well to help the team, having the threat of gasol and bynum down low forces defenses to play differently than they would with only 1 player to worry about
kobe might be the better basketball player but lebron is better at basketball and for me that makes him the best
When i look at the series stats, i see at least 3 other people from the cavs scoring in double digits, the same as when they blew out the hawks. No one was complaining about the team not stepping up then? But now that they got bashed by orlando, all of a sudden "lebron needs help, team not doing shit." get outta my face with that, they even had refs on their side. In game 4 when the refs called tech foul on howard and ewing, imagine if mo williams hit both those free throws the game would of been won by cleveland if everything played out the same way. it doesnt matter that everyone knew it was gonna be rescinded, the game would of been lost.
Lebron is a forward and kobe an SG, lebron better have a higher Fg% than kobe, esp when all he does is drive to hole and crash into his man. When kobe goes to the hole he actually gets around his man. Kobe doesnt get half his points from beasting people? wtf are you talkin about? how many times have you seen kobe post his man then fades in his face and hits the jumper and his man isnt playing bad defense. Did you see what he was doing to shane battier? Shane is on him and puts that hand 1 inch all in kobe's face and kobe still burys the shoot, he was doing it to shane all night long. When you shoot in people's face like that you know dam well you a beast. Put a hand in lebron's face and you'll get an air ball.
no one gives kobe credit on his passing ability. kobe has a great passing ability. he doesn't avg assists like lebron cuz he let's his point guard play the point and he plays his position. Cavs have lebron playing point all day long.
EPT
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