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motbob
United States12546 Posts
On April 02 2009 14:00 messengerASL wrote:
I just wanted to say that if you get online and see that every one else is already so far ahead record wise in the league, don't be too discouraged. The world is round so, essentially, half the field of players play when the other half is asleep at any given time. We're already seeing some very strong players.
I'm surprised there aren't more Koreans. Hmmm, I guess the prize money isn't big enough to draw them in.
Yikes, why would you even allow Koreans in the tournament? It opens the door for some B-teamer to say, "nice $400, I'll take it."
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Lol this looks so sketchy...been entertaining lurking this thread at work today though lol
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On April 02 2009 14:00 messengerASL wrote:
I'm surprised there aren't more Koreans. Hmmm, I guess the prize money isn't big enough to draw them in.
They practically share a timezone with Australia so they are consequently intimidated.
...or so I figure it.
But yes seriously motbob has a point about the inclusion of Koreans.
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has nothing to do with being a racist. iSCOUT did you even keep up with the past TSL? there was a reason for the exclusion of koreans, i dont think the TSL would have been as great as it was if koreans were allowed to play. Excluding koreans from events like this only helps expand the foreign starcraft scene, and im pretty sure koreans have enough leagues or events like this of their own to keep them content..
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Yeah do we want the guys raping Idra all day in the B team to come and make it look like the top of the ICCup now?
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On April 02 2009 15:41 iSCOUT4u wrote:
Don't be a racist
yeah, you have no idea what it must be like for a korean player to have an opportunity to destroy us and take the prize money totally blocked off. truly, i would grieve for them if asl did it. tsl did and it was like TL-sanctioned apartheid.
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I've debated this Korean playing in general for several years now, since their initial influx into Battle.net. Trust me, when I say I've put a lot of thought into this area. I understand both sides of the argument in regards to why it is good/bad for Koreans to play in leagues like ASL. I truly do understand both sides of the arguments. Both sides make very valid points.
Ultimately for me, what it comes down to is this. It's through reasoning, that I think this is a good idea.
This isn't a main reason, but it's a good reason, so I'll start off with this.
Korean B-team players don't make more money than their A-team counter parts. They get paid, true. But they put in a lot of freaking hours to get that pay. The salary range is $20K to $150K from B to A team players. The vast majority don't get over $60K a year. Here is the crux of it however. If you're around $20K-$40K a year and you're putting in 15-20 hours of gaming a day, then that's worst than like working at McDonalds; that's factoring exchange rates.
This next part is my main reason for allowing Koreans to compete.
I have a very serious preposition that I would like to make.
We have an under developed E-Sport scene because of such blocking.
I don't believe causality is the other way around. We've tried the other route; it hasn't improved Westerner's E-Sport scene greatly. It's generally one time events that happen annually. That's unacceptable. There's no league that happens on televised TV. That's unacceptable. There not that many e-sports team that provide "salary" pay to their members. That's unacceptable.
This whole situation is similar to the American auto industry.
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20090119195006AAEqsW2
For all intents and purposes in this analogy, I am the governing body, because I'm governing this league.
I think if we change the perception of Koreans are generally better, even if it's true, then we can build momentum in building a more robust foreigner scene. Trust me when I say within the next 5-10 years, we will have a scene similar to the Koreans' scene now.
The ASL will create that future for Western players or generally known as (foreign players). We will have televised leagues/games ON TV within 5 to 10 years. King Ansadi will try to make that happen.
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This isn't a main reason, but it's a good reason, so I'll start off with this.
Korean B-team players don't make that much money than their A-team counter parts. They get paid, true. But they put in a lot of freaking hours to get that pay. The salary range is $20K to $150K from B to A team players. The vast majority don't get over $60K a year. Here is the crux of it however. If you're around $20K-$40K a year and you're putting in 15-20 hours of gaming a day, then that's worst than like working at McDonalds; that's factoring exchange rates.
This is my 'main' reason for allowing Koreans to compete.
It's generally one time events that happen annually
I have a very serious preposition that I would like to make.
its amazing how you fit so many words around such little content. im not sure if you actually said anything in that entire post.
how would letting koreans in do anything to improve the western esports scene? if any pros actually did play it, and they wont, it wouldnt do anything to help foreigners. the reason western esports is underdeveloped is because of the lack of money which stems from the lack of popularity. if you actually have gotten some money handing it over to korean players isnt gonna do anything to attract the attention of western sponsors, which is what would actually help esports grow.
you arent gonna change the perception of koreans being better because it is true. and its not going to change until theres some support for foreigners to practice as much as koreans, and the way to do that is to make prize money available to foreigners to motivate them to play more. forcing them to compete with progamers for the little money that is available is not the way to do that.
and, by the way, you're handing out 700 dollars. tsl had 10 grand and wasnt half as pretentious or as annoying as you, and people had alot more respect for and interest in them. take a page out of their book.
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On April 02 2009 19:21 IdrA wrote:
its amazing how you fit so many words around such little content. im not sure if you actually said anything in that entire post.
how would letting koreans in do anything to improve the western esports scene? if any pros actually did play it, and they wont, it wouldnt do anything to help foreigners. the reason western esports is underdeveloped is because of the lack of money which stems from the lack of popularity. if you actually have gotten some money handing it over to korean players isnt gonna do anything to attract the attention of western sponsors, which is what would actually help esports grow.
you arent gonna change the perception of koreans being better because it is true. and its not going to change until theres some support for foreigners to practice as much as koreans, and the way to do that is to make prize money available to foreigners to motivate them to play more. forcing them to compete with progamers for the little money that is available is not the way to do that.
and, by the way, you're handing out 700 dollars. tsl had 10 grand and wasnt half as pretentious or as annoying as you, and people had alot more respect for and interest in them. take a page out of their book.
What do you mean it wouldn't help it? I think exposure and making a fanbase is more important at this point in time than getting some frequent foreign 'pros', having sponsors, or - and this is the result of having money in the scene - having big names in leagues for people to follow. The way I see it you are going to struggle for the time being to get a lot of money in it, and the same old people are going to the tourneys to get the money and scrape what living they can off of SC while they envy the Koreans.
Having notable Korean players, who are arguably more popular amongst SC fans than the top foreigners, playing in tourneys may not attract the serious competitive players because they know their chances of benefiting from a cash prize are reduced significantly. What it will do is pull in some of the newer people to the scene and maybe encourage them to enter tournaments - any that win money while at this level will be completely stoked moreso than seasoned gamers. I know I'd want to play if I had the chance to come up against the Koreans. Not saying that this kind of prize would attract progamers, of course, as this is probably pocket change to many of them, but even the B-team players may have this effect. If a tournament has the reputation of sporting Koreans in the lineup it will be considered the "best" competition and hence should attract attention from the *fans* instead of just the people out there to make money.
Don't mistake enthusiasm and proactive attitude for pretentiousness. TSL got the respect because of an established community and money backing, and it was run differently. Just because the way in which messengerASL conducts himself and his league shits you, and let's face it - who can think of anything in the last 6 months that hasn't pissed you off somehow?, doesn't mean that everyone finds it annoying so the point you are trying to make is not as robust as you act as though it is.
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On April 02 2009 19:54 iCCup.deL wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2009 19:21 IdrA wrote:
its amazing how you fit so many words around such little content. im not sure if you actually said anything in that entire post.
how would letting koreans in do anything to improve the western esports scene? if any pros actually did play it, and they wont, it wouldnt do anything to help foreigners. the reason western esports is underdeveloped is because of the lack of money which stems from the lack of popularity. if you actually have gotten some money handing it over to korean players isnt gonna do anything to attract the attention of western sponsors, which is what would actually help esports grow.
you arent gonna change the perception of koreans being better because it is true. and its not going to change until theres some support for foreigners to practice as much as koreans, and the way to do that is to make prize money available to foreigners to motivate them to play more. forcing them to compete with progamers for the little money that is available is not the way to do that.
and, by the way, you're handing out 700 dollars. tsl had 10 grand and wasnt half as pretentious or as annoying as you, and people had alot more respect for and interest in them. take a page out of their book.
What do you mean it wouldn't help it? I think exposure and making a fanbase is more important at this point in time than getting some frequent foreign 'pros', having sponsors, or - and this is the result of having money in the scene - having big names in leagues for people to follow. The way I see it you are going to struggle for the time being to get a lot of money in it, and the same old people are going to the tourneys to get the money and scrape what living they can off of SC while they envy the Koreans. Having notable Korean players, who are arguably more popular amongst SC fans than the top foreigners, playing in tourneys may not attract the serious competitive players because they know their chances of benefiting from a cash prize are reduced significantly. What it will do is pull in some of the newer people to the scene and maybe encourage them to enter tournaments - any that win money while at this level will be completely stoked moreso than seasoned gamers. I know I'd want to play if I had the chance to come up against the Koreans. Not saying that this kind of prize would attract progamers, of course, as this is probably pocket change to many of them, but even the B-team players may have this effect. If a tournament has the reputation of sporting Koreans in the lineup it will be considered the "best" competition and hence should attract attention from the *fans* instead of just the people out there to make money.
the thing is even the very best foreigners would be hard pressed to place in a tournament with real progamer competition. (just look at wcg, even with only 3 of them you have to pray for lucky brackets to get a foreigner in top 3) you arent going to be encouraging new blood. sure people will want to play just to get a chance to play with progamers, but its not gonna be a competition. and the only way the koreans themselves really draw much attention is if theyre relatively high profile, and you're not gonna get A teamers for 400$. so basically you're just throwing money at whichever b teamer no ones heard of or cares about decides to waste some practice time for a little extra cash.
alot of the fan interest in tsl and other foreigner tournaments is *because* its only foreigners. jf is not as good as bisu. people dont care. if they want to watch the best theyre going to watch korean tournaments.
Don't mistake enthusiasm and proactive attitude for pretentiousness. TSL got the respect because of an established community and money backing, and it was run differently. Just because the way in which messengerASL conducts himself and his league shits you, and let's face it - who can think of anything in the last 6 months that hasn't pissed you off somehow?, doesn't mean that everyone finds it annoying so the point you are trying to make is not as robust as you act as though it is.
quite a few people have told him he acts like a douchebag and that his league would be much more well received if he were managing it intelligently, and i think thats pretty hard to deny. sc2gg has bigger names playing for less prize money.
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Again, SC2GG has an entire community behind them - this is just one guy who has (apparently) never tried this before. However, your points are taken. I am thinking in the long term, though, that Koreans will be required in the foreigner scene if it is ever going to flourish. When not all countries are represented strongly and even then only by a few players it is going to be hard to draw an audience from those areas. The whole standard of play needs to raise - people like to see their countrymen do well and high-level entertaining play where everyone has a chance - before you can draw solid fans and international attention.
At the moment it is just wanting the non-Koreans to represent, deep down everyone jumps on the bandwagon of any non-Korean competing with them even if they are not from their own country because it is the next best thing without someone from their own country to barrack for. In my opinion this is not a strong enough foundation for a large, money-packed international eSports scene. One reason why wc3 is more international is because in most countries you can follow a couple of half-decent players from theirown nation (albeit struggling to keep afloat amongst a sea of koreans/chinese).
Anyway I am dragging this out a bit but I hope I made a point in there somewhere.
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On April 02 2009 19:21 IdrA wrote:Show nested quote +This isn't a main reason, but it's a good reason, so I'll start off with this.
Korean B-team players don't make that much money than their A-team counter parts. They get paid, true. But they put in a lot of freaking hours to get that pay. The salary range is $20K to $150K from B to A team players. The vast majority don't get over $60K a year. Here is the crux of it however. If you're around $20K-$40K a year and you're putting in 15-20 hours of gaming a day, then that's worst than like working at McDonalds; that's factoring exchange rates.
This is my 'main' reason for allowing Koreans to compete. its amazing how you fit so many words around such little content. im not sure if you actually said anything in that entire post. how would letting koreans in do anything to improve the western esports scene? if any pros actually did play it, and they wont, it wouldnt do anything to help foreigners. the reason western esports is underdeveloped is because of the lack of money which stems from the lack of popularity. if you actually have gotten some money handing it over to korean players isnt gonna do anything to attract the attention of western sponsors, which is what would actually help esports grow. you arent gonna change the perception of koreans being better because it is true. and its not going to change until theres some support for foreigners to practice as much as koreans, and the way to do that is to make prize money available to foreigners to motivate them to play more. forcing them to compete with progamers for the little money that is available is not the way to do that. and, by the way, you're handing out 700 dollars. tsl had 10 grand and wasnt half as pretentious or as annoying as you, and people had alot more respect for and interest in them. take a page out of their book.
I don't particularly want to get into a long discussion over this, but where is the pretentiousness? I haven't claimed that this was a big event. I've let a lot of people know about this event, but that's not the same thing as claiming it's a big, comparatively with TSL event.
Pretentious: 1: characterized by pretension: as a: making usually unjustified or excessive claims (as of value or standing) b: expressive of affected, unwarranted, or exaggerated importance, worth, or stature
I believe you're misusing the word. I haven't made any excessive claims of value or standing. I've continuously expressed that I was only a messenger. I've continuously kept my identity private/hidden, so I can't possibly care about my own personal standing in the community. I haven't claimed to be important or of any value to any one.
Maybe you mean to use another word? Because it's confusing the hell out of me, because that is not a nice word. If you think I'm annoying, then I'm sorry. I don't think that's my problem; I think that's your problem. You're going to have to get use to other people not thinking the same way as you. And additionally, you're going to have to get use to minority opinion. My view points are not the same as the majority. Insulting me and re-iterating a view point I've seen for years now is not going to change my opinion. I understand your thoughts already. I've seen that type of reasoning for a long time now.
I'm not trying to be annoying. You're thinking this is some sort of purposeful thing, that I'm trying to spite you. I'm not. I'm not trying to piss people off. If people are getting pissed off because of my words, then it's their fault. I'm rather cool/cold emotionally on this end writing out things as I see them.
Why do you think it's unpopular in western e-sports?
I'm actually trying to make this business-worthy, so I spend a lot of time thinking about this. Please calm down. You're not trying to monetize this, I am. It's different outlook.
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On April 02 2009 20:17 iCCup.deL wrote:
Again, SC2GG has an entire community behind them - this is just one guy who has (apparently) never tried this before. none of the competitive players are part of their community though, no one was playing before they announced a prize and then basically every top foreigner signed up.
However, your points are taken. I am thinking in the long term, though, that Koreans will be required in the foreigner scene if it is ever going to flourish. When not all countries are represented strongly and even then only by a few players it is going to be hard to draw an audience from those areas. The whole standard of play needs to raise - people like to see their countrymen do well and high-level entertaining play where everyone has a chance - before you can draw solid fans and international attention.
but the koreans fans already have their starleagues and proleagues and are unlikely to jump to lower quality leagues through a language barrier, and encouraging koreans to play isnt gonna do anything to draw players from other countries.
At the moment it is just wanting the non-Koreans to represent, deep down everyone jumps on the bandwagon of any non-Korean competing with them even if they are not from their own country because it is the next best thing without someone from their own country to barrack for. In my opinion this is not a strong enough foundation for a large, money-packed international eSports scene. One reason why wc3 is more international is because in most countries you can follow a couple of half-decent players from theirown nation (albeit struggling to keep afloat amongst a sea of koreans/chinese).
Anyway I am dragging this out a bit but I hope I made a point in there somewhere.
well yes but like i said before the way to develop those foreign players that fans can root for is to have a reason for foreign players to practice as much as progamers. actually reaching that level without coming to korea is pretty impractical, but in theory at least. you simply cant compete with people who practice literally 5 times as much as you in a more productive environment than you, and you cant mimic that setup unless theres money to back you up, because you cant practice 12 hours a day and hold a job. theres little enough money amongst foreigners, letting koreans in on it does nothing to help that, and having the koreans in the tournament isnt going to make the foreigners better players or draw more money, for the reasons i already said.
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On April 02 2009 20:25 messengerASL wrote:Show nested quote +On April 02 2009 19:21 IdrA wrote:This isn't a main reason, but it's a good reason, so I'll start off with this.
Korean B-team players don't make that much money than their A-team counter parts. They get paid, true. But they put in a lot of freaking hours to get that pay. The salary range is $20K to $150K from B to A team players. The vast majority don't get over $60K a year. Here is the crux of it however. If you're around $20K-$40K a year and you're putting in 15-20 hours of gaming a day, then that's worst than like working at McDonalds; that's factoring exchange rates.
This is my 'main' reason for allowing Koreans to compete. It's generally one time events that happen annually I have a very serious preposition that I would like to make. its amazing how you fit so many words around such little content. im not sure if you actually said anything in that entire post. how would letting koreans in do anything to improve the western esports scene? if any pros actually did play it, and they wont, it wouldnt do anything to help foreigners. the reason western esports is underdeveloped is because of the lack of money which stems from the lack of popularity. if you actually have gotten some money handing it over to korean players isnt gonna do anything to attract the attention of western sponsors, which is what would actually help esports grow. you arent gonna change the perception of koreans being better because it is true. and its not going to change until theres some support for foreigners to practice as much as koreans, and the way to do that is to make prize money available to foreigners to motivate them to play more. forcing them to compete with progamers for the little money that is available is not the way to do that. and, by the way, you're handing out 700 dollars. tsl had 10 grand and wasnt half as pretentious or as annoying as you, and people had alot more respect for and interest in them. take a page out of their book. I don't particularly want to get into a long discussion over this, but where is the pretentiousness? I haven't claimed that this was a big event. I've let a lot of people know about this event, but that's not the same thing as claiming it's a big, comparatively with TSL event. Pretentious: 1: characterized by pretension: as a: making usually unjustified or excessive claims (as of value or standing) b: expressive of affected, unwarranted, or exaggerated importance, worth, or stature I believe you're misusing the word. I haven't made any excessive claims of value or standing. I've continuously expressed that I was only a messenger. I've continuously kept my identity private/hidden, so I can't possibly care about my own personal standing in the community. I haven't claimed to be important or of any value to any one. The ASL will create that future for Western players or generally known as (foreign players). We will have televised leagues/games ON TV within 5 to 10 years. King Ansadi will try to make that happen
seriously?
Maybe you mean to use another word? Because it's confusing the hell out of me, because that is not a nice word. If you think I'm annoying, then I'm sorry. I don't think that's my problem; I think that's your problem. You're going to have to get use to other people not thinking the same way as you. And additionally, you're going to have to get use to minority opinion. My view points are not the same as the majority. Insulting me and re-iterating a view point I've seen for years now is not going to change my opinion. I understand your thoughts already. I've seen that type of reasoning for a long time now.
you dont have views. you prattle on about how this is new and big and different and you're a well informed benevolent overlord guiding the community towards future riches. youve yet to say anything of value or post anything of any kind of content about any of those big ideas, or give any reasons for anyone to believe a single word you say.
I'm not trying to be annoying. You're thinking this some sort of purposeful thing that I'm trying to spite you. I'm not. I'm not trying to piss people off. If people are getting pissed off because of my words, then it's their fault. I'm rather cool/cold emotionally on this end writing out things as I see them.
hardly, you're harmless. i just think you're clueless and that if you actually have a source of sponsorship money that you're essentially wasting it.
Why do you think it's unpopular in western e-sports?
I'm actually trying to make this business-worthy, so I spend a lot of time thinking about this. Please calm down. You're not trying to monetize this, I am. It's 'different outlook. You want guys like me to be right.
is that why you didnt address anything i said about your 'ideas on esports'?
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Perhaps there needs to be insentive further down the track to draw Korean (ex-?)players and coaches out of Korea once there is money in it. Learning English is becoming a bigger part of Korean education so the language barrier should not be so severe. Anyway who cares let's just sit back and enjoy the tourney as best we can.
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Idra:
Ultimately, your way of thinking has been the prevalent way for 8 years now. It's not working. Every one thinks like you. I'm going to think differently on why this is broken.
Accept it or don't.
I'm a nobody. I'm just a messenger. Please calm down.
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why draw out koreans? you were just talking about how fanbases are more motivated when theyre rooting for players from their own countries.
and the language barrier would definitely be huge.
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On April 02 2009 20:36 messengerASL wrote:
Idra:
Ultimately, your way of thinking has been the prevalent way for 8 years now. It's not working. Every one thinks like you. I'm going to think differently on why this is broken.
Accept it or don't.
think differently how? by being illogical? gl with that
the reason its not working is because the culture in western countries is simply not willing to embrace esports yet, especially for an 11 year old strategy game. in an environment like that you are not going to be able to set up something like the koreans have. our 'way of thinking' is not responsible for that. being different solely for the sake of being different is a waste of time, as you obviously have no logical reason to do so or you would have already explained it to us instead of posting a bunch of fluff.
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why are you doing the messenger thing anyway? 99% of the time you post as if you are the authority behind this and the architect of some kind of grand scheme to bring esports into the limelight, and then you randomly mention that you're 'only the messenger'
seriously, dumb shit like that is the reason people think this is a joke.
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EPT
