• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 21:08
CEST 03:08
KST 10:08
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
RSL Season 1 - Final Week6[ASL19] Finals Recap: Standing Tall12HomeStory Cup 27 - Info & Preview18Classic wins Code S Season 2 (2025)16Code S RO4 & Finals Preview: herO, Rogue, Classic, GuMiho0
Community News
Esports World Cup 2025 - Brackets Revealed6Weekly Cups (July 7-13): Classic continues to roll2Team TLMC #5 - Submission extension2Firefly given lifetime ban by ESIC following match-fixing investigation17$25,000 Streamerzone StarCraft Pro Series announced7
StarCraft 2
General
Who will win EWC 2025? Esports World Cup 2025 - Brackets Revealed Team TLMC #5 - Submission extension The GOAT ranking of GOAT rankings Esports World Cup 2025 - Final Player Roster
Tourneys
RSL: Revival, a new crowdfunded tournament series FEL Cracov 2025 (July 27) - $8000 live event $5,100+ SEL Season 2 Championship (SC: Evo) WardiTV Mondays Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament
Strategy
How did i lose this ZvP, whats the proper response Simple Questions Simple Answers
Custom Maps
External Content
Mutation # 482 Wheel of Misfortune Mutation # 481 Fear and Lava Mutation # 480 Moths to the Flame Mutation # 479 Worn Out Welcome
Brood War
General
BW General Discussion Flash Announces (and Retracts) Hiatus From ASL Starcraft in widescreen BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ A cwal.gg Extension - Easily keep track of anyone
Tourneys
Cosmonarchy Pro Showmatches [Megathread] Daily Proleagues CSL Xiamen International Invitational [BSL20] Non-Korean Championship 4x BSL + 4x China
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers I am doing this better than progamers do.
Other Games
General Games
Nintendo Switch Thread Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Path of Exile CCLP - Command & Conquer League Project The PlayStation 5
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Summer Games Done Quick 2025! Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Stop Killing Games - European Citizens Initiative
Fan Clubs
SKT1 Classic Fan Club! Maru Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Movie Discussion! [Manga] One Piece Anime Discussion Thread [\m/] Heavy Metal Thread
Sports
Formula 1 Discussion TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 2024 - 2025 Football Thread NBA General Discussion NHL Playoffs 2024
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Men Take Risks, Women Win Ga…
TrAiDoS
momentary artworks from des…
tankgirl
from making sc maps to makin…
Husyelt
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Trip to the Zoo
micronesia
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 485 users

[Spoiler] Next Bonjwa? - Page 3

Forum Index > Closed
Post a Reply
Prev 1 2 3 4 5 18 19 20 Next All
KlaCkoN
Profile Blog Joined May 2007
Sweden1661 Posts
February 08 2009 17:21 GMT
#41
On February 09 2009 02:16 DamageControL wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 09 2009 02:10 Vasoline73 wrote:
On February 09 2009 01:49 fusionsdf wrote:
also lol at the super misleading savior stats.

if you extend bonjwa status to 2006-02-01 ー 2007-02-01 his stats go up
And If I cherry picked that, I could hit ~80% easily if I wanted.

that's just a rough 12 month period, longer than the one on the chart. Which means whoever did that chart picked a really bad range.

sAviOr
2006-02-01 ー 2007-02-01
All: 50 wins - 17 losses (74.63%)
T: 15 wins - 8 losses (65.22%)
Z: 16 wins - 6 losses (72.73%)
P: 19 wins - 3 losses (86.36%)

note how in 12 months, TLPD lists fewer games than the graph does in 9 months, so I don't know what's going on with that.

If we take a years range for bisu (say 2007-02-01 ー 2008-02-01), we get:

Bisu
2007-02-01 ー 2008-02-01
All: 63 wins - 42 losses (60.00%)
T: 29 wins - 22 losses (56.86%)
Z: 21 wins - 10 losses (67.74%)
P: 13 wins - 10 losses (56.52%)

If you want to try and find a year-long period with better stats than that, go for it.


QFT!

And ohhhh my god, if Bisu beats Jaedong in this Bo5 (who may be entering a slump IMO due to dropping MSL/WL) I'm going to shoot myself because the "BISU IS GOD!" "BISU BEAT JAEDONG" talk will never end.

Although I'm just giving Bisu fans a hard time, I'm semi-serious because though it will be impressive, Jaedong will probably be having an off day and lose.

And talk like this is the reason why bisu wouldn't be a bonjwa with out a 90% winrate. Oh....that guy had an offday, those maps were so toss favored. Savior did it with ANTI-zerg map who cares if his elo and kespa and winrate were all worse.

Now that being said I don't think Bisu is quite at the level yet for him to be a "bonjwa" in our eyes, just dominant. Note that he dropped off for a while so it only feels like one msl and one gsi


The only reason savior had such an insane win rate was because he didnt even play games in OSL :p (And GOM obviously didnt exist) Bisu's elo peak is comparable to savior's at his height.
You have a point about the maps though, it definetely feels like Bisu only does well on maps generally considered "toss maps".
"Voice or no voice the people can always be brought to the bidding of their leaders ... All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger."
Juicyfruit
Profile Joined May 2008
Canada5484 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-02-08 17:33:57
February 08 2009 17:33 GMT
#42
I always considered bonjwa to mean: undisputed best player. Currently, despite his recent ownage, I can't say for sure that Bisu is the undisputed best player. It's not just about achievements, it's also about potential.

There are too many talents out there that can surpass Bisu on a good day, the obvious ones being Jaedong and Flash.

Can you say for sure that if Bisu played his very best against Jaedong playing his very best, that Bisu would win for sure?
minus_human
Profile Blog Joined November 2006
4784 Posts
February 08 2009 17:33 GMT
#43
It's funny that nobody would have dared to dispute savior's status, even before he won his OSL.

The very existence of this thread and this debate is a sign that Bisu isn't a Bonjwa. However, it seems very likely that there will never be a bonjwa in starcraft again.
SuperJongMan
Profile Blog Joined March 2003
Jamaica11586 Posts
February 08 2009 17:37 GMT
#44
It's stupid because Bisu is pulling in better results than Savior was at his time.
Savior was the last champion of the shitty MSL structures.
POWER OVERWHELMING ! ! ! KRUU~ KRUU~
Geo.Rion
Profile Blog Joined October 2008
7377 Posts
February 08 2009 17:39 GMT
#45
you need to add an option: Only if he wins an OSL
"Protoss is a joke" Liquid`Jinro Okt.1. 2011
roadrunner_sc
Profile Blog Joined April 2006
United States1220 Posts
February 08 2009 17:43 GMT
#46
Given the level of competition nowadays it hardly seems anyone qualifies as bonjwa anymore, in the strictest sense. Which indeed makes Savior all the more special.

Nonetheless, losing a final to Mind really shouldn't diminish the consistency and dominance Bisu has shown time and time again. Who knows, maybe the newer generation might all-together redefine the concept of Bonjwa. Players like Flash and Jaedong shouldn't be labeled as "lesser" just because of tougher competition.
Average Posts Per Week: 13.37
eshlow
Profile Joined June 2008
United States5210 Posts
February 08 2009 17:44 GMT
#47
On February 09 2009 01:32 ShaLLoW[baY] wrote:
If you have to ask if he's bonjwa, he's not bonjwa.


Yup

------------------------------------

Also, bad picking of dates for the stats. You should go by when the respective players hit their ELO peak. This leads to ALL of those players (besides boxer who we're missing games and such for) have win % around 80%.
Overcoming Gravity: A Systematic Approach to Gymnastics and Bodyweight Strength
sixghost
Profile Blog Joined November 2007
United States2096 Posts
February 08 2009 17:44 GMT
#48
You might as well have made the title: Bisu wins GOM Final
mG.sixghost @ iCCup || One ling, two ling, three ling, four... Camp four gas, then ultra-whore . -Saracen
emucxg
Profile Blog Joined May 2007
Finland4559 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-02-08 17:46:11
February 08 2009 17:45 GMT
#49
On February 09 2009 02:44 eshlow wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 09 2009 01:32 ShaLLoW[baY] wrote:
If you have to ask if he's bonjwa, he's not bonjwa.


Yup

------------------------------------

Also, bad picking of dates for the stats. You should go by when the respective players hit their ELO peak. This leads to ALL of those players (besides boxer who we're missing games and such for) have win % around 80%.

I've said before, it's not random date, it depend on kespa ranking. (while the player is 1st on Kespa)
Ancestral
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
United States3230 Posts
February 08 2009 17:52 GMT
#50
The title of this is kind of a spoiler, and it says [spoiler] after the title, which isn't even visible on the sidebar.

Not to nitpick, as I will still watch it, but the result won't be too surprising T.T

On another note, Savior was epically untouchable for a year. Bisu hasn't done that, and saw more suck sooner than Savior did. So if Bisu is still winning leagues in early 2010, then I'll concede he may be the first Protoss bonjwa.
The Nature and purpose of the martial way are universal; all selfish desires must be roasted in the tempering fires of hard training. - Masutatsu Oyama
mrgerry
Profile Joined September 2008
United States1508 Posts
February 08 2009 17:56 GMT
#51
I should just start watching matches live :/
minus_human
Profile Blog Joined November 2006
4784 Posts
February 08 2009 17:56 GMT
#52
On February 09 2009 02:37 SuperJongMan wrote:
It's stupid because Bisu is pulling in better results than Savior was at his time.
Savior was the last champion of the shitty MSL structures.


There are other dominant players coexisting with Bisu. Even if Flash, Jaedong and Stork (even if he seems slumping) aren't as successful, they exert a similar domination to Bisu's. A bonjwa is the absolute ruler, without competition
eshlow
Profile Joined June 2008
United States5210 Posts
February 08 2009 17:57 GMT
#53
On February 09 2009 02:45 emucxg wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 09 2009 02:44 eshlow wrote:
On February 09 2009 01:32 ShaLLoW[baY] wrote:
If you have to ask if he's bonjwa, he's not bonjwa.


Yup

------------------------------------

Also, bad picking of dates for the stats. You should go by when the respective players hit their ELO peak. This leads to ALL of those players (besides boxer who we're missing games and such for) have win % around 80%.

I've said before, it's not random date, it depend on kespa ranking. (while the player is 1st on Kespa)


KeSPA rankings are crappy because of their decay factor. Someone can just fall off the face of the earth and still be #1 for a couple months...
Overcoming Gravity: A Systematic Approach to Gymnastics and Bodyweight Strength
Athos
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
United States2484 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-02-08 18:02:52
February 08 2009 18:02 GMT
#54
This thread ruined the series for me as I was watching the vods.


That being said I consider Bisu to be Bonjwa in my mind now. Those who disagree can go cry under a rock.
JWD
Profile Blog Joined October 2007
United States12607 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-02-08 18:10:22
February 08 2009 18:02 GMT
#55
On February 09 2009 02:56 mrgerry wrote:
I should just start watching matches live :/


Word, this title is definitely a spoiler.

Edit: can a mod please edit the title?
✌
Djabanete
Profile Blog Joined May 2008
United States2786 Posts
February 08 2009 18:02 GMT
#56
If Bisu wins just about anything else at this point, his bonjwa status will be confirmed. He's a hair's breadth away from having a case that's simply undeniable. Bonjwa's have a hallowed status, and people don't want to be hasty and overeager about adding another name to the short list; but I think eventually his popularity and standing as the best protoss ever will win out. His name is already penciled in; if he wins another title, he's there for sure.
May the BeSt man win.
gm.tOSS
Profile Joined September 2005
Germany898 Posts
February 08 2009 18:03 GMT
#57
Even as a Bisufan: Not yet.
HuK HuK HuK | ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ | There is death in the hane.
emucxg
Profile Blog Joined May 2007
Finland4559 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-02-08 18:18:04
February 08 2009 18:09 GMT
#58
ok i might be wrong, the date doesn't depent on Kespa, It's 100 matches from some random time, forget what I've said...
Fontong
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
United States6454 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-02-08 18:11:50
February 08 2009 18:10 GMT
#59
dude the title of this thread is a spoiler
[SECRET FONT] "Dragoon bunker"
SuperJongMan
Profile Blog Joined March 2003
Jamaica11586 Posts
February 08 2009 18:11 GMT
#60
On February 09 2009 02:56 minus_human wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 09 2009 02:37 SuperJongMan wrote:
It's stupid because Bisu is pulling in better results than Savior was at his time.
Savior was the last champion of the shitty MSL structures.


There are other dominant players coexisting with Bisu. Even if Flash, Jaedong and Stork (even if he seems slumping) aren't as successful, they exert a similar domination to Bisu's. A bonjwa is the absolute ruler, without competition


What? Nada, Chojja, Anyime, or Midas didn't exist in Savior's time?

Bisu in his day has many more games to play and vs better people. I mean, Savior smashed Kingdom Reach and Ra all day and night to lol his way thru MSL. Silver... do you even remember Silver??????
POWER OVERWHELMING ! ! ! KRUU~ KRUU~
Prev 1 2 3 4 5 18 19 20 Next All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Replay Cast
00:00
SEL Masters #4 - Day 2
CranKy Ducklings91
Liquipedia
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
Nina 217
Livibee 138
ProTech44
StarCraft: Brood War
Artosis 772
Icarus 4
Dota 2
monkeys_forever713
NeuroSwarm118
League of Legends
JimRising 1134
Trikslyr81
Counter-Strike
Fnx 1472
taco 318
Super Smash Bros
hungrybox719
Other Games
summit1g14662
shahzam1853
C9.Mang0242
Maynarde136
Day[9].tv131
Mew2King33
RuFF_SC219
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick3332
BasetradeTV47
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 17 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Berry_CruncH118
• Mapu4
• intothetv
• IndyKCrew
• sooper7s
• Migwel
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Kozan
StarCraft: Brood War
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
• BSLYoutube
Dota 2
• masondota22699
League of Legends
• Doublelift6294
Counter-Strike
• Shiphtur558
Other Games
• Scarra1434
• Day9tv131
Upcoming Events
Replay Cast
8h 53m
WardiTV European League
14h 53m
ShoWTimE vs sebesdes
Percival vs NightPhoenix
Shameless vs Nicoract
Krystianer vs Scarlett
ByuN vs uThermal
Harstem vs HeRoMaRinE
PiGosaur Monday
22h 53m
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
1d 14h
Replay Cast
1d 22h
The PondCast
2 days
Replay Cast
2 days
Epic.LAN
3 days
CranKy Ducklings
4 days
Epic.LAN
4 days
[ Show More ]
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
4 days
Bonyth vs Sziky
Dewalt vs Hawk
Hawk vs QiaoGege
Sziky vs Dewalt
Mihu vs Bonyth
Zhanhun vs QiaoGege
QiaoGege vs Fengzi
Sparkling Tuna Cup
5 days
Online Event
5 days
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
5 days
Bonyth vs Zhanhun
Dewalt vs Mihu
Hawk vs Sziky
Sziky vs QiaoGege
Mihu vs Hawk
Zhanhun vs Dewalt
Fengzi vs Bonyth
Liquipedia Results

Completed

2025 ACS Season 2: Qualifier
RSL Revival: Season 1
Murky Cup #2

Ongoing

JPL Season 2
BSL 2v2 Season 3
CSL 17: 2025 SUMMER
Copa Latinoamericana 4
Jiahua Invitational
BSL20 Non-Korean Championship
Championship of Russia 2025
FISSURE Playground #1
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 7
IEM Dallas 2025
PGL Astana 2025
Asian Champions League '25
BLAST Rivals Spring 2025
MESA Nomadic Masters

Upcoming

CSL Xiamen Invitational
CSL Xiamen Invitational: ShowMatche
2025 ACS Season 2
CSLPRO Last Chance 2025
CSLPRO Chat StarLAN 3
BSL Season 21
K-Championship
RSL Revival: Season 2
SEL Season 2 Championship
uThermal 2v2 Main Event
FEL Cracov 2025
Esports World Cup 2025
Underdog Cup #2
ESL Pro League S22
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
IEM Cologne 2025
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.