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On February 09 2009 02:16 DamageControL wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2009 02:10 Vasoline73 wrote:On February 09 2009 01:49 fusionsdf wrote:
also lol at the super misleading savior stats.
if you extend bonjwa status to 2006-02-01 ー 2007-02-01 his stats go up
And If I cherry picked that, I could hit ~80% easily if I wanted.
that's just a rough 12 month period, longer than the one on the chart. Which means whoever did that chart picked a really bad range.
sAviOr
2006-02-01 ー 2007-02-01
All: 50 wins - 17 losses (74.63%)
T: 15 wins - 8 losses (65.22%)
Z: 16 wins - 6 losses (72.73%)
P: 19 wins - 3 losses (86.36%)
note how in 12 months, TLPD lists fewer games than the graph does in 9 months, so I don't know what's going on with that.
If we take a years range for bisu (say 2007-02-01 ー 2008-02-01), we get:
Bisu
2007-02-01 ー 2008-02-01
All: 63 wins - 42 losses (60.00%)
T: 29 wins - 22 losses (56.86%)
Z: 21 wins - 10 losses (67.74%)
P: 13 wins - 10 losses (56.52%)
If you want to try and find a year-long period with better stats than that, go for it. QFT! And ohhhh my god, if Bisu beats Jaedong in this Bo5 (who may be entering a slump IMO due to dropping MSL/WL) I'm going to shoot myself because the "BISU IS GOD!" "BISU BEAT JAEDONG" talk will never end. Although I'm just giving Bisu fans a hard time, I'm semi-serious because though it will be impressive, Jaedong will probably be having an off day and lose. And talk like this is the reason why bisu wouldn't be a bonjwa with out a 90% winrate. Oh....that guy had an offday, those maps were so toss favored. Savior did it with ANTI-zerg map who cares if his elo and kespa and winrate were all worse. Now that being said I don't think Bisu is quite at the level yet for him to be a "bonjwa" in our eyes, just dominant. Note that he dropped off for a while so it only feels like one msl and one gsi
The only reason savior had such an insane win rate was because he didnt even play games in OSL :p (And GOM obviously didnt exist) Bisu's elo peak is comparable to savior's at his height.
You have a point about the maps though, it definetely feels like Bisu only does well on maps generally considered "toss maps".
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I always considered bonjwa to mean: undisputed best player. Currently, despite his recent ownage, I can't say for sure that Bisu is the undisputed best player. It's not just about achievements, it's also about potential.
There are too many talents out there that can surpass Bisu on a good day, the obvious ones being Jaedong and Flash.
Can you say for sure that if Bisu played his very best against Jaedong playing his very best, that Bisu would win for sure?
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It's funny that nobody would have dared to dispute savior's status, even before he won his OSL.
The very existence of this thread and this debate is a sign that Bisu isn't a Bonjwa. However, it seems very likely that there will never be a bonjwa in starcraft again.
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It's stupid because Bisu is pulling in better results than Savior was at his time.
Savior was the last champion of the shitty MSL structures.
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you need to add an option: Only if he wins an OSL
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Given the level of competition nowadays it hardly seems anyone qualifies as bonjwa anymore, in the strictest sense. Which indeed makes Savior all the more special.
Nonetheless, losing a final to Mind really shouldn't diminish the consistency and dominance Bisu has shown time and time again. Who knows, maybe the newer generation might all-together redefine the concept of Bonjwa. Players like Flash and Jaedong shouldn't be labeled as "lesser" just because of tougher competition.
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On February 09 2009 01:32 ShaLLoW[baY] wrote:
If you have to ask if he's bonjwa, he's not bonjwa.
Yup
------------------------------------
Also, bad picking of dates for the stats. You should go by when the respective players hit their ELO peak. This leads to ALL of those players (besides boxer who we're missing games and such for) have win % around 80%.
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You might as well have made the title: Bisu wins GOM Final
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On February 09 2009 02:44 eshlow wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2009 01:32 ShaLLoW[baY] wrote:
If you have to ask if he's bonjwa, he's not bonjwa. Yup ------------------------------------ Also, bad picking of dates for the stats. You should go by when the respective players hit their ELO peak. This leads to ALL of those players (besides boxer who we're missing games and such for) have win % around 80%.
I've said before, it's not random date, it depend on kespa ranking. (while the player is 1st on Kespa)
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The title of this is kind of a spoiler, and it says [spoiler] after the title, which isn't even visible on the sidebar.
Not to nitpick, as I will still watch it, but the result won't be too surprising T.T
On another note, Savior was epically untouchable for a year. Bisu hasn't done that, and saw more suck sooner than Savior did. So if Bisu is still winning leagues in early 2010, then I'll concede he may be the first Protoss bonjwa.
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I should just start watching matches live :/
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On February 09 2009 02:37 SuperJongMan wrote:
It's stupid because Bisu is pulling in better results than Savior was at his time.
Savior was the last champion of the shitty MSL structures.
There are other dominant players coexisting with Bisu. Even if Flash, Jaedong and Stork (even if he seems slumping) aren't as successful, they exert a similar domination to Bisu's. A bonjwa is the absolute ruler, without competition
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On February 09 2009 02:45 emucxg wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2009 02:44 eshlow wrote:On February 09 2009 01:32 ShaLLoW[baY] wrote:
If you have to ask if he's bonjwa, he's not bonjwa. Yup ------------------------------------ Also, bad picking of dates for the stats. You should go by when the respective players hit their ELO peak. This leads to ALL of those players (besides boxer who we're missing games and such for) have win % around 80%. I've said before, it's not random date, it depend on kespa ranking. (while the player is 1st on Kespa)
KeSPA rankings are crappy because of their decay factor. Someone can just fall off the face of the earth and still be #1 for a couple months...
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This thread ruined the series for me as I was watching the vods.
That being said I consider Bisu to be Bonjwa in my mind now. Those who disagree can go cry under a rock.
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United States12607 Posts
On February 09 2009 02:56 mrgerry wrote:
I should just start watching matches live :/
Word, this title is definitely a spoiler.
Edit: can a mod please edit the title?
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If Bisu wins just about anything else at this point, his bonjwa status will be confirmed. He's a hair's breadth away from having a case that's simply undeniable. Bonjwa's have a hallowed status, and people don't want to be hasty and overeager about adding another name to the short list; but I think eventually his popularity and standing as the best protoss ever will win out. His name is already penciled in; if he wins another title, he's there for sure.
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Even as a Bisufan: Not yet.
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ok i might be wrong, the date doesn't depent on Kespa, It's 100 matches from some random time, forget what I've said...
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dude the title of this thread is a spoiler
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On February 09 2009 02:56 minus_human wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2009 02:37 SuperJongMan wrote:
It's stupid because Bisu is pulling in better results than Savior was at his time.
Savior was the last champion of the shitty MSL structures. There are other dominant players coexisting with Bisu. Even if Flash, Jaedong and Stork (even if he seems slumping) aren't as successful, they exert a similar domination to Bisu's. A bonjwa is the absolute ruler, without competition
What? Nada, Chojja, Anyime, or Midas didn't exist in Savior's time?
Bisu in his day has many more games to play and vs better people. I mean, Savior smashed Kingdom Reach and Ra all day and night to lol his way thru MSL. Silver... do you even remember Silver??????
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EPT
