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Terran Imbalance: Analyzing its Cost Efficiency
There is no way to explain the imbalance of the system with analyzing every aspect of the race. It is much more simple and logical to compare the units that serve similar functions to determine if the races are truly balanced or not. I felt like I had to write this because I believe Terran is an imba race.
Starcraft Progamer Scene : Terrans have been dominating the Starcraft Pro gaming scene for a very long time now. From the rise of famous Boxer, oov, Nada, Flash, there have always been solid Terran champions. Even the Terrans who don’t make it to the top have always looked strong: Xellos, Hwasin, Iris, Midas. The sheer fact that there are more successful Terran dominant players support the argument that Terran race is much easier to master because it has always been advantageously overpowered.
So why would I think that Terran is an overpowered race? Well, two words simplify everything: Cost Efficiency. The game of starcraft is all about getting enough minerals and resources to build an army to destroy the opponent. The more money = bigger army. If your units are cheap and powerful, then you can build lots of them and have a much bigger army to stomp your opponents.
Vulture:
75 Minerals, Comes with 3 useful mines. Very Fast. Mines cost nothing to use, and can even serve as scouting tools. Vulture is very flexible unit, meaning they can be easily microed. They kill probes/drones in 2 shots while Dragoon needs 6 whooping hits to kill an SCV. Very ideal for harassing the mineral line, scouting units, and front line meatshields because they are so cheap.
Solution: The cost of Vulture must be raised to at least 125 minerals. Give just 1 mine per vulture OR put 1 supply cost for each spider mine planted.
Tank:
150 Minerals 100 Gas 2 Supply, Longest Range, Very High damage and splash damage. Does something sound wrong here? How does something that does 70 damage with huge range only cost 2 supply? This is the reason why many players say 200/200 Terran army will beat a 200/200 Protoss army straight up. Because Tanks cost the same supply as a freaking Vulture or Dragoon. How is that not imbalanced?
Solution: Make Tanks cost 3 Supply
SCV:
50 Minerals, 60 Life. Drones and Probes have 40 life total, but Terran SCV has 60…why? Because Drone and Probes have regenerating life? Yes, that is true, but regeneration takes very long time which makes it useless. Terran might not have that, but they have something better called repair. Its much faster and efficient. So what is the point of making Terran SCV 60 Life? Dragoons already need more than 2 hits to kill an SCV compared to Vulture’s type of damage that allows it to 2 hit probes/drones. Why increase the life of SCV to make it take 6 hits instead of 4 hits for Dragoon to kill it?
Solution: Make Terran SCV 40 Life
Marine/Medic/Firebat: These units are so cost efficient that Terrans can make a huge group of them in time without an expo. This is the reason why Terran > Zerg in TvZ. If Zerg loses his Lurkerling/ Mutaling army, Zerg is pretty much screwed. Same for Terrans? Nah. By the time they die, another huge group of m&m is already built and ready-to-go. Very cheap cost that almost makes the game unfair. 6 Firebat in early game can make 30 Zerglings take huge casualties…all at the cost of…300 minerals and 150 gas?? But 30 lings cost 750 minerals…
Solution: Marines cost 75 minerals, Medic costs 75 minerals 25 gas, Firebat costs 75 minerals 50 gas. Stim is automatically available without researching.
Turrets: 20 Damage, Attack Air only, 75 Minerals
Very cost efficient, compared to cannons and spore colonies. Spore does 15 damage, and costs 175 minerals (including drone) That’s more than twice the cost of Turret but does less attack damage than it. Yes, spores have more life than turrets but turrets are repairable.
Cannon seems like a fair-deal because it costs double of Turrets at the reward of being able to attack ground as well but this is actually a bad thing. When Units from dropships get pounded by cannons, as soon as units start dropping, the cannon starts focusing on attacking the units dropped instead. That means that the dropship is safe and so are the other units in the dropship. Not to mention that turrets shoot faster than cannons as well.
One other thing cheap about turrets is that they can be build anywhere on the map unlike cannons or sunken/spores. Cannons need pylon and colonies need creep. Turrets can serve as anti dropship during large battles, while Protoss cannot do the same (pylon/cannon take too long to build, time-wise and cost-wise)
Solution: Make Turrets cost 100 minerals, make Turrets do 15 damage.
Goliaths: Oh boy. The most promising ground to air unit has arrived. Initially it does 20 damage but with full upgrades, it can do 32 damage to air units per attack! Furthermore, they have long range, cheap 125 minerals 75 gas, and does decent damage to ground units as well.
Solution: Goliath cost should be turned up to 125 minerals and 125 gas.
Terran Dropship: Not much problems here, except the fact that they are faster in speed than an unupgraded shuttle. Need to be the same speed as un upgraded Protoss shuttle to make things fair.
Concepts:
Terran Metal Upgrades: Very Unproportional. I can understand Zerg upgrades only giving +1 attack because Zerg uses large quantity of units, and Protoss units getting +2 attack per upgrade because P units are expensive and few, but why does Terran metal units get massive unbalanced digits of upgrade? For example, Siege Tank does 70 Damage without upgrade. Each upgrade will give it 5 damage, so a fully +3 attack Siege Tank will do 85 Damage! That’s 15 more damage for 3 upgrades!
Solution: Tanks/Goliaths/Vulture only receive 2 attack more per upgrade.
Terrans should not be allowed to wall-in. This allows for smaller Terran army to be safe from a larger Zerg / Protoss army. On the other hand, if the T army is bigger than Zerg/Protoss army, then they have to quickly build more units or they will get rolled over.
Terrans should not be allowed to lift off. How is it that a less technologically advanced race (Terran) can lift off while a more advanced technology (Protoss) cannot lift off? Lift off allows Terran to be safe from pure-ground army. This is very useful because in TvZ, Zerg will naturally not have any hydras, and just enough scourges to destroy dropships/vessels. So when a Zerg overruns a Terran expo, the Terran CC is safe from simply liftoff. Zerg hatchery cannot be safe from a Terran attack.
Furthermore, Terran players abuse this concept farther by planting hidden mines under the lifted off building. Naturally, most players will not know about this.
Solution: Allow Zerg buildings to “burrow” or Prevent Terran buildings from liftoff. Another solution might be: Terrans need to research liftoff at CC. When lifting off, there is a 10 second delay before preparing to lift off.
Maphack Scouting: Zerg uses suicidal lings or suicidal overlords to gather scouting information. Protoss has observers which can initially seem safe because of the cloak, but Turrets will render that useless. Observers cannot go where there are turrets, meaning it will be blocked away from at least half of the Terran base.
Terran has Science Vessel to detect and scan. But they also have comsat. This allows them to see anywhere in the map at the cost of energy. 50 energy might seem fair but at the age of fast expanding where you will see 2~4 command centers per game, that 50 energy cost is more like 13~25 energy. It is pretty much the most reliable and safe sort of scouting in the game.
Solution: Raise the cost of comsat station. Lower the area of degree of vision from scan by 50%.
Terran Tech Tree: A huge problem in Terran tech is that everything is very easy and relatively fast to get to. Zerg needs to upgrade to lair then to hive to reach the later tech (ultra, defiler) while Protoss needs to build a series of building requirements to reach arbiter tech (cybercore -> stargate/templar -> arbiter)
This might not seem like a big deal, but it actually is. It allows for Terrans to reach their late techs relatively easier than other races, allowing Terran to drop much faster than Protoss/Zerg ever could, allowing Terran access to irradiate (Terran high-end tech) when Zerg has mutalisks (mid-game tech units)
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...This is a joke, right? Even one of your so-called "solutions" would seriously unbalance the game.
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Such a beautiful and well-structured post, only to be filled with massive amounts of bullshit that makes no sense.
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Chill was right about people with <10 posts...
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Plz do not question the balance of the game. Progaming has existed for this long, and if there is a REAL serious problem, I think the progamers would know better than you. Do not judge the game on your own experience.
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most of top 5 on iccup are zerg users?
let me see you play terran and get to #1 ranking on iccup asap, and then MAYBE i'll listen to your bs.
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hahahaha....
you're a dumbass
solution - quit sc or try playing terran.thank you.
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On October 17 2008 06:04 p23s3 wrote:
Chill was right about people with <10 posts...
QFT!
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Lol looks like someone has been bashed by terrans to much.
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Oh my... Just oh my...
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Oh my...
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Seriously I've read through this post twice now and I'm getting a fucking headache. You have little or NO understanding of the game at all, and some "solutions" are already outdated that proved to actually put terrans at disadvantage.
For example; The cost for a turret was 100 minerals before they patched it (can't remember when they did that though). Looking at the modern age of starcraft, a 3 hatchery muta build would shit on any terran seeing how much turrets they need in order to defend.
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The only reason you guys believe that the game is balanced is because other people have said it. When was the last time you analyzed and compared each similiar unit of each race? I am sure there are probably some Pro gamers who think the game is not balanced, but do not want to speak out because it will attract negative criticism. Especially because this is an old game. Blizzard failed to tune-down Terrans before turning to SC2
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TT_TT
scvs overpowered? lololol
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Korea (South)11576 Posts
zerg is overpowered, muta harass = fuck my life
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On October 17 2008 06:10 fusionsdf wrote:
TT_TT
scvs overpowered? lololol
yeah, they have fusion cutters
dont you remember that massive all-caps incontrol rant where he talks about imbal SCVs and their fusion cutters?
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On October 17 2008 06:10 fusionsdf wrote:
TT_TT
scvs overpowered? lololol
When Terran drops vultures in a Protoss base, they will do 2 hits to kill each probe. When Protoss drops Goons into T base, it will take 6 hits to kill each SCV. Its not that SCV is powerful, its just that they have too much life to be fair. Killing workers is a optimal method of offset the opponent's economy; this is why SCV life have to be reduced to make harrassment equal
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On October 17 2008 06:09 F13 wrote:
The only reason you guys believe that the game is balanced is because other people have said it. When was the last time you analyzed and compared each similiar unit of each race? I am sure there are probably some Pro gamers who think the game is not balanced, but do not want to speak out because it will attract negative criticism. Especially because this is an old game. Blizzard failed to tune-down Terrans before turning to SC2
And the only reason you think it's unbalanced is because either you lose too much to terrans or you don't play terran at all. From the perspective of gameplay, do you know how hard it is to spread marines against lurkers? to micro your vessels to dodge scourages? to constantly plant mines in TvP? to goliath micro against carriers? to dodge Dark Swarms? It's not a matter of whether the game is balanced or not, it's skills that matters.
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On October 17 2008 06:12 F13 wrote:When Terran drops vultures in a Protoss base, they will do 2 hits to kill each probe. When Protoss drops Goons into T base, it will take 6 hits to kill each SCV. Please tell me that it is balanced when looking at it in that perspective
Have you heard of reavers? lol
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I lol'ed. Decent write-up.
7/10
Too obvious, though. Especially for so much effort put into it.
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I wish this was a blog post so we can all give 0 stars.
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On October 17 2008 06:12 F13 wrote:When Terran drops vultures in a Protoss base, they will do 2 hits to kill each probe. When Protoss drops Goons into T base, it will take 6 hits to kill each SCV. Please tell me that it is balanced when looking at it in that perspective
What kind of retard drops goons into an scv line? There's a reason certain units are used for harassing. (Reavers and ht anybody?)
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On October 17 2008 06:12 F13 wrote:When Terran drops vultures in a Protoss base, they will do 2 hits to kill each probe. When Protoss drops Goons into T base, it will take 6 hits to kill each SCV. Its not that SCV is powerful, its just that they have too much life to be fair. Killing workers is a optimal method of offset the opponent's economy; this is why SCV life have to be reduced to make harrassment equal
Plz tell me how that is imbalanced when you drop reavers/high templars into your enemy's base..
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On October 17 2008 06:14 Sprite wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2008 06:12 F13 wrote:On October 17 2008 06:10 fusionsdf wrote:
TT_TT
scvs overpowered? lololol When Terran drops vultures in a Protoss base, they will do 2 hits to kill each probe. When Protoss drops Goons into T base, it will take 6 hits to kill each SCV. Please tell me that it is balanced when looking at it in that perspective Have you heard of reavers? lol
Yes I know. Whether Terran SCV health changes from 60 to 40 to back to 60 makes no difference in terms of reaver harrassment. Thats why it should be changed to affect goon damage to workers
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On October 17 2008 06:14 Sprite wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2008 06:12 F13 wrote:On October 17 2008 06:10 fusionsdf wrote:
TT_TT
scvs overpowered? lololol When Terran drops vultures in a Protoss base, they will do 2 hits to kill each probe. When Protoss drops Goons into T base, it will take 6 hits to kill each SCV. Please tell me that it is balanced when looking at it in that perspective Have you heard of reavers? lol
Lol maybe he hasn't seen Jianfei play?
Why the hell would you drop goons?? They utterly suck against workers and would not be effective whether or not SCVs had 40 health. Do you do dragoons drops vs zerg?
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On October 17 2008 06:14 foodontable wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2008 06:12 F13 wrote:On October 17 2008 06:10 fusionsdf wrote:
TT_TT
scvs overpowered? lololol When Terran drops vultures in a Protoss base, they will do 2 hits to kill each probe. When Protoss drops Goons into T base, it will take 6 hits to kill each SCV. Please tell me that it is balanced when looking at it in that perspective What kind of retard drops goons into an scv line? There's a reason certain units are used for harassing. (Reavers and ht anybody?)
I'm not saying goons have to be dropped, but there are lots of times when there will be goons just shooting at SCV because P army just overran the Terran expo. I am just saying in the instance when Goons meet SCV, not necessarily using goons to harrass
Storms will be more effective if the worker was 40 health rather than 60
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Vultures + Mines: Shuttle + Zealot bomb
Tanks: Melee units
SCVs need 60 HP especially since they are stuck working on a building as opposed to Protoss and Zerg who don't need to stick around and be vulnerable.
MMF: Not even going to answer.
Turrets: Already do explosive. Nothing needs to be changed.
Goliaths: Dragoons + Storm
Dropship: Lawl.
Metal upgrades: So? Protoss counters with Storm, Carriers, Stasis. Metal is clunky and slow.
No walls? Every PvT game will end in 2 Gate Goon Range heavy pressure.
Vessels are expensive and easy to kill. To compensate, there is Comsat.
Tech tree: You kill Vessels with Scourge. Problem solved. You kill Metal with Zealots + Dragoons. Mid-tech Terran vs low-tech Protoss. Omg P imba.
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Germany2896 Posts
You cannot compare units simply by price and firepower. Much of SC's balance comes from timing and the possibility of mapcontrol which is harder for terran because their mobility is lower than that of the other races.
And if you look at the other races you find a number of "imbalances" like dark swarm, cracklings, psystorm...
And you have clear technical mistakes in your comparision. ie in Cannon vs turret you conveniently forgot to mention explosive dmg vs normal dmg.
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On October 17 2008 06:17 F13 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2008 06:14 foodontable wrote:On October 17 2008 06:12 F13 wrote:On October 17 2008 06:10 fusionsdf wrote:
TT_TT
scvs overpowered? lololol When Terran drops vultures in a Protoss base, they will do 2 hits to kill each probe. When Protoss drops Goons into T base, it will take 6 hits to kill each SCV. Please tell me that it is balanced when looking at it in that perspective What kind of retard drops goons into an scv line? There's a reason certain units are used for harassing. (Reavers and ht anybody?) I'm not saying goons have to be dropped, but there are lots of times when there will be goons just shooting at SCV because P army just overran the Terran expo. I am just saying in the instance when Goons meet SCV, not necessarily using goons to harrass Storms will be more effective if the worker was 40 health rather than 60
Last comment uninstall, storms tear up scvs.
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On October 17 2008 06:12 F13 wrote:When Terran drops vultures in a Protoss base, they will do 2 hits to kill each probe. When Protoss drops Goons into T base, it will take 6 hits to kill each SCV. Its not that SCV is powerful, its just that they have too much life to be fair. Killing workers is a optimal method of offset the opponent's economy; this is why SCV life have to be reduced to make harrassment equal
JESUS.
Last time I checked Terran doesn't have the reaver who can kill up to 12 scvs in ONE SHOT and is about as expensive as a 4 vult drop. Last time I checked, terran doesn't have the darktemplar who's INVISABLE and kills scvs in 2 shots not to mention it fucking tears down turrets in matter of seconds. Last time I checked terran doesn't have storm which rapes your ENTIRE scv-line in seconds if you don't react quick enough. BUT HEY, lets make scv health 40 so that it'll only take 1 storm to blow up 24 scvs in 1 second, lets make 1 scarab blow up 16 scvs instead of blowing up 6 of them and splashing another 10. Let's make shuttle-goon harass efficient, because Protoss are so limited when it comes to harassing a terran.
WHAT THE FUCK
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On October 17 2008 06:14 Sprite wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2008 06:12 F13 wrote:On October 17 2008 06:10 fusionsdf wrote:
TT_TT
scvs overpowered? lololol When Terran drops vultures in a Protoss base, they will do 2 hits to kill each probe. When Protoss drops Goons into T base, it will take 6 hits to kill each SCV. Please tell me that it is balanced when looking at it in that perspective Have you heard of reavers? lol
I don't know which one I hate more, those, are DT's haha.
Oh and F13, Golis are 100 min 50 gas =D Seriously imba yeah? =P
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On October 17 2008 06:13 letsbefree wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2008 06:09 F13 wrote:
The only reason you guys believe that the game is balanced is because other people have said it. When was the last time you analyzed and compared each similiar unit of each race? I am sure there are probably some Pro gamers who think the game is not balanced, but do not want to speak out because it will attract negative criticism. Especially because this is an old game. Blizzard failed to tune-down Terrans before turning to SC2 And the only reason you think it's unbalanced is because either you lose too much to terrans or you don't play terran at all. From the perspective of gameplay, do you know how hard it is to spread marines against lurkers? to micro your vessels to dodge scourages? to constantly plant mines in TvP? to goliath micro against carriers? to dodge Dark Swarms? It's not a matter of whether the game is balanced or not, it's skills that matters.
Vessels getting scourged should not happen if they are close by your m&m army. Its just Terran player's negligance and mistake if Vessels get scourged. Dodging dark swarms is relatively easy for higher level players, I see them always stimming and pulling back. Constantly planting mines might sound like a "problem" in your persepective but the actual ability to do that in the 1st place is like a reward. Protosses dont have useful powerful mines to plant in the 1st place
Spreading marines against lurkers? Tanks > lurkers, and usually its the Zerg army (lurkers) that comes to your stationary Terran army. When lurkers come, stim and get ready to pull back after few seconds. Rinse and repeat.
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rofl, jesus christ.
okay, scv needs 60hp because they have to MAKE the buildings instead of transforming/warping buildings from nothing. if they had 40hp it would be so hilariously imba.
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I agree. Make psistorm 1 hit kill everything, not affect your units, and cover the entire map.
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I lol'd. Took it as a total joke because that's all it can possibly, logically, feasibly be... right?
RIGHT?? DON'T TELL ME SERIOUS THREAD IS SERIOUS?!?!?!?!
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T IS SO IMBA PVT I HATE IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Aren't terran's units meant to be more cost effective anyway? It's because it's harder for terran to defend its expansions compared to zerg or protoss. If they weren't than terran would be forced to expo as much as a protoss player, which would just make TvP ridiculous.
edit: I think he really is serious about this...
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On October 17 2008 06:20 F13 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2008 06:13 letsbefree wrote:On October 17 2008 06:09 F13 wrote:
The only reason you guys believe that the game is balanced is because other people have said it. When was the last time you analyzed and compared each similiar unit of each race? I am sure there are probably some Pro gamers who think the game is not balanced, but do not want to speak out because it will attract negative criticism. Especially because this is an old game. Blizzard failed to tune-down Terrans before turning to SC2 And the only reason you think it's unbalanced is because either you lose too much to terrans or you don't play terran at all. From the perspective of gameplay, do you know how hard it is to spread marines against lurkers? to micro your vessels to dodge scourages? to constantly plant mines in TvP? to goliath micro against carriers? to dodge Dark Swarms? It's not a matter of whether the game is balanced or not, it's skills that matters. Vessels getting scourged should not happen if they are close by your m&m army. Its just Terran player's negligance and mistake if Vessels get scourged. Dodging dark swarms is relatively easy for higher level players, I see them always stimming and pulling back. Constantly planting mines might sound like a "problem" in your persepective but the actual ability to do that in the 1st place is like a reward. Protosses dont have useful powerful mines to plant in the 1st place Spreading marines against lurkers? Tanks > lurkers, and usually its the Zerg army (lurkers) that comes to your stationary Terran army. When lurkers come, stim and get ready to pull back after few seconds. Rinse and repeat.
Look at me i watch progamers and now i understand game balance yippy!
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On October 17 2008 06:20 F13 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2008 06:13 letsbefree wrote:On October 17 2008 06:09 F13 wrote:
The only reason you guys believe that the game is balanced is because other people have said it. When was the last time you analyzed and compared each similiar unit of each race? I am sure there are probably some Pro gamers who think the game is not balanced, but do not want to speak out because it will attract negative criticism. Especially because this is an old game. Blizzard failed to tune-down Terrans before turning to SC2 And the only reason you think it's unbalanced is because either you lose too much to terrans or you don't play terran at all. From the perspective of gameplay, do you know how hard it is to spread marines against lurkers? to micro your vessels to dodge scourages? to constantly plant mines in TvP? to goliath micro against carriers? to dodge Dark Swarms? It's not a matter of whether the game is balanced or not, it's skills that matters. Vessels getting scourged should not happen if they are close by your m&m army. Its just Terran player's negligance and mistake if Vessels get scourged. Dodging dark swarms is relatively easy for higher level players, I see them always stimming and pulling back. Constantly planting mines might sound like a "problem" in your persepective but the actual ability to do that in the 1st place is like a reward. Protosses dont have useful powerful mines to plant in the 1st place Spreading marines against lurkers? Tanks > lurkers, and usually its the Zerg army (lurkers) that comes to your stationary Terran army. When lurkers come, stim and get ready to pull back after few seconds. Rinse and repeat.
Okay I'm done here. You obviously have no understanding of the game at all. I mean seriously?
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On October 17 2008 06:21 clazziquai wrote:
T IS SO IMBA PVT I HATE IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Its why I stopped playing melee is because of that matchup haha.
Oh yeah, Xellos has won at least one Starleague, HwaSIn won a WCG qualifier, so they've made it to the top at least once =P
But yeah I guess T is so imbalanced, after all the best female player is a T =P
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On October 17 2008 06:17 F13 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2008 06:14 foodontable wrote:On October 17 2008 06:12 F13 wrote:On October 17 2008 06:10 fusionsdf wrote:
TT_TT
scvs overpowered? lololol When Terran drops vultures in a Protoss base, they will do 2 hits to kill each probe. When Protoss drops Goons into T base, it will take 6 hits to kill each SCV. Please tell me that it is balanced when looking at it in that perspective What kind of retard drops goons into an scv line? There's a reason certain units are used for harassing. (Reavers and ht anybody?) I'm not saying goons have to be dropped, but there are lots of times when there will be goons just shooting at SCV because P army just overran the Terran expo. I am just saying in the instance when Goons meet SCV, not necessarily using goons to harrass Storms will be more effective if the worker was 40 health rather than 60
Due to a variant on Poe's Law I can't tell whether or not you were joking or are just that noob.
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On October 17 2008 06:20 F13 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2008 06:13 letsbefree wrote:On October 17 2008 06:09 F13 wrote:
The only reason you guys believe that the game is balanced is because other people have said it. When was the last time you analyzed and compared each similiar unit of each race? I am sure there are probably some Pro gamers who think the game is not balanced, but do not want to speak out because it will attract negative criticism. Especially because this is an old game. Blizzard failed to tune-down Terrans before turning to SC2 And the only reason you think it's unbalanced is because either you lose too much to terrans or you don't play terran at all. From the perspective of gameplay, do you know how hard it is to spread marines against lurkers? to micro your vessels to dodge scourages? to constantly plant mines in TvP? to goliath micro against carriers? to dodge Dark Swarms? It's not a matter of whether the game is balanced or not, it's skills that matters. Vessels getting scourged should not happen if they are close by your m&m army. Its just Terran player's negligance and mistake if Vessels get scourged. Dodging dark swarms is relatively easy for higher level players, I see them always stimming and pulling back. Constantly planting mines might sound like a "problem" in your persepective but the actual ability to do that in the 1st place is like a reward. Protosses dont have useful powerful mines to plant in the 1st place Spreading marines against lurkers? Tanks > lurkers, and usually its the Zerg army (lurkers) that comes to your stationary Terran army. When lurkers come, stim and get ready to pull back after few seconds. Rinse and repeat.
Yea you can try building shitloads of tanks in the early game vs Z and see how many tanks you'll make before you get raped.
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+ Show Spoiler +On October 17 2008 06:24 letsbefree wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2008 06:20 F13 wrote:On October 17 2008 06:13 letsbefree wrote:On October 17 2008 06:09 F13 wrote:
The only reason you guys believe that the game is balanced is because other people have said it. When was the last time you analyzed and compared each similiar unit of each race? I am sure there are probably some Pro gamers who think the game is not balanced, but do not want to speak out because it will attract negative criticism. Especially because this is an old game. Blizzard failed to tune-down Terrans before turning to SC2 And the only reason you think it's unbalanced is because either you lose too much to terrans or you don't play terran at all. From the perspective of gameplay, do you know how hard it is to spread marines against lurkers? to micro your vessels to dodge scourages? to constantly plant mines in TvP? to goliath micro against carriers? to dodge Dark Swarms? It's not a matter of whether the game is balanced or not, it's skills that matters. Vessels getting scourged should not happen if they are close by your m&m army. Its just Terran player's negligance and mistake if Vessels get scourged. Dodging dark swarms is relatively easy for higher level players, I see them always stimming and pulling back. Constantly planting mines might sound like a "problem" in your persepective but the actual ability to do that in the 1st place is like a reward. Protosses dont have useful powerful mines to plant in the 1st place Spreading marines against lurkers? Tanks > lurkers, and usually its the Zerg army (lurkers) that comes to your stationary Terran army. When lurkers come, stim and get ready to pull back after few seconds. Rinse and repeat. Yea you can try building shitloads of tanks in the early game vs Z and see how many tanks you'll make before you get raped.
unless your iloveoov =P
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On October 17 2008 06:12 F13 wrote:When Terran drops vultures in a Protoss base, they will do 2 hits to kill each probe. When Protoss drops Goons into T base, it will take 6 hits to kill each SCV. Its not that SCV is powerful, its just that they have too much life to be fair. Killing workers is a optimal method of offset the opponent's economy; this is why SCV life have to be reduced to make harrassment equal
you can't be serious .... 
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On October 17 2008 06:25 MorningMusume11 wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On October 17 2008 06:24 letsbefree wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2008 06:20 F13 wrote:On October 17 2008 06:13 letsbefree wrote:On October 17 2008 06:09 F13 wrote:
The only reason you guys believe that the game is balanced is because other people have said it. When was the last time you analyzed and compared each similiar unit of each race? I am sure there are probably some Pro gamers who think the game is not balanced, but do not want to speak out because it will attract negative criticism. Especially because this is an old game. Blizzard failed to tune-down Terrans before turning to SC2 And the only reason you think it's unbalanced is because either you lose too much to terrans or you don't play terran at all. From the perspective of gameplay, do you know how hard it is to spread marines against lurkers? to micro your vessels to dodge scourages? to constantly plant mines in TvP? to goliath micro against carriers? to dodge Dark Swarms? It's not a matter of whether the game is balanced or not, it's skills that matters. Vessels getting scourged should not happen if they are close by your m&m army. Its just Terran player's negligance and mistake if Vessels get scourged. Dodging dark swarms is relatively easy for higher level players, I see them always stimming and pulling back. Constantly planting mines might sound like a "problem" in your persepective but the actual ability to do that in the 1st place is like a reward. Protosses dont have useful powerful mines to plant in the 1st place Spreading marines against lurkers? Tanks > lurkers, and usually its the Zerg army (lurkers) that comes to your stationary Terran army. When lurkers come, stim and get ready to pull back after few seconds. Rinse and repeat. Yea you can try building shitloads of tanks in the early game vs Z and see how many tanks you'll make before you get raped. unless your iloveoov =P
Or Flash or Boxer with gosu micro 
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Ultralisks, Defilers, Mutalisks, Lurkers, Reavers, Templars (both of them), Arbiters, and Carriers are all imba too. They should all be nerfed as well!
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PvT being my strongest matchup, F13 makes me cry...
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60hp linebackers IMBA!!!!!!
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On October 17 2008 06:30 Lz wrote:
60hp linebackers IMBA!!!!!!
SCV Football yeah~!!!!!!!
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Katowice25012 Posts
I agree. Fuck terran. Fuck them and their stupid asses.
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I can't believe this thread hasn't been locked yet
O.O
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F13, maybe you could make a map with these changes incorporated? My little sister would like to Z/PvT you on it.
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this got to be a joke, i can't believe anyone put so much work in such a "post"
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LOL LOL F13, why don't u insert this in the beginning of ur OP?
"okay, i know i suck at this game. every terran i face rapes me. i'm just pissed that i REEEALLY SUCK"
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Jeez if its so imba just contact blizzard designers, im pretty sure they'll have a whack at it
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United States20661 Posts
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LOL
LOLLL
LOLLLLL
LOLLLLLLL
LOLLLLLLLLLLL
LOLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL
LOLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL
LOLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL
ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL OMG OMG OMG 60HP SCV'S OMG IMBA TERRAN OMFG
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Guys either this is an obvious troll, or F13 has the intelligence of tuna.
I'm assuming the former.
Actually, it is a testament to how good Starcraft is that every unit is "imba" in its own way. It shows that every (well most) units have a unique purpose and can be effective.
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Your argumentation is flawed.
Although I cannot blame you, I had some similiar thought of Terran when I had 6 posts.
Theory != Empirical evidence on many occasions
Vulture is a very good unit, but the most significant drawback is concusive damage and supply cost of 2.
Every and any Terran ground unit can be slaughtered with Ultra+ling+defiler combo - How is that fair?
Arbiters can recall to Terran main(and destroy it) and bloke choke with statis while Terran can hardly do anything to prevent it.
Terran is most cost efficient but is also the race most prone to abuse of high tech units.
One thing your right is the cost supply's aren't fair.
In perfect universe Tanks would be like 2.5 supply, Vultures and Zealots like 1.5. It would be fair but it would be more ugly and complicated at the same time.
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f13 is a pile of boulders..-_-
Why would T have to wall if they are so imba? fool...
What about the easiness for toss/zerg to take expos while terran have an extreme hard time protecting their expansions? This is why it makes TvP balanced, terran have low amounts of expos while protoss always have 1-2 more expansions to make it fair. Sure if you break it down to mineral resources yah vults are cost effective, but terran don't get as much income as toss.
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On October 17 2008 06:01 Djabanete wrote:
...This is a joke, right? Even one of your so-called "solutions" would seriously unbalance the game.
This. While I actually kind of agree that T is too cost-effective (translation: I lose badly to terrans), it's obvious to anyone that the proposed 'solutions' would make terrans into the approximate equivalent of a race of Panda-Bear-Guy's, with the occasional Kakaru.
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It's either:
1) A serious argument
2) An argument by someone who got bashed by 18 terrans on USEast
3) A troll
Either way, I went LOL
LOLOLOLOLOL
LOLOLOOOL
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haha what?? maybe you should start playing some strategy game where every race feels the same. Or better yet start playing chess, but don't whine if you get black and can't make first move :/
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PS: He joined on april 1st 2008, and lives in the USA. He must be a fool.
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Wow, haha, I couldn't even get past vulture without laughing out loud. 125 minerals was it for me!
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On October 17 2008 06:41 arb wrote:LOL
+1
im pretty sure this thread is only good for posting random things now...even the hilarity factor of the OP has somewhat died
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Solution: Make Tanks cost 3 Supply
This is something I have been thinking about myself. It would definately balance late game pvt. With this change, a 200/200 terran army would be equivalent to a 200/200 protoss army, instead of way more powerful.
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i wonder if op has played more than 10 games of starcraft
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This must be a joke.
He even has april 1st as his join date.
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your "solutions" are more flawed then the problems you submitted in your post. ill try to explain myself a little for each section.
Vulture:
75 Minerals, Comes with 3 useful mines. Very Fast. Mines cost nothing to use, and can even serve as scouting tools. Vulture is very flexible unit, meaning they can be easily microed. They kill probes/drones in 2 shots while Dragoon needs 6 whooping hits to kill an SCV. Very ideal for harassing the mineral line, scouting units, and front line meatshields because they are so cheap.
Solution: The cost of Vulture must be raised to at least 125 minerals. Give just 1 mine per vulture OR put 1 supply cost for each spider mine planted.
+ Show Spoiler +Making spidermines 1 supply would single handidly annihilate the way we play TvP.
Spidermines are used to handle many problems that protoss easily throws our way such as reavers, dark templar and every now and then the protoss flank =/
Tank:
150 Minerals 100 Gas 2 Supply, Longest Range, Very High damage and splash damage. Does something sound wrong here? How does something that does 70 damage with huge range only cost 2 supply? This is the reason why many players say 200/200 Terran army will beat a 200/200 Protoss army straight up. Because Tanks cost the same supply as a freaking Vulture or Dragoon. How is that not imbalanced?
Solution: Make Tanks cost 3 Supply
+ Show Spoiler +hmm im D noob but by the time i get 1 tank protoss already had 2 dragoons at my fucking cliff on python >:|, dammit all.
SCV:
50 Minerals, 60 Life. Drones and Probes have 40 life total, but Terran SCV has 60…why? Because Drone and Probes have regenerating life? Yes, that is true, but regeneration takes very long time which makes it useless. Terran might not have that, but they have something better called repair. Its much faster and efficient. So what is the point of making Terran SCV 60 Life? Dragoons already need more than 2 hits to kill an SCV compared to Vulture’s type of damage that allows it to 2 hit probes/drones. Why increase the life of SCV to make it take 6 hits instead of 4 hits for Dragoon to kill it?
Solution: Make Terran SCV 40 Life
+ Show Spoiler +I think the reason why scv's have more life is because, the scv unit, is supposed to be the builders of the front line. SCVs sit and build, not disappear into a 100+ hp building, or warp and leave to safety.
Marine/Medic/Firebat: These units are so cost efficient that Terrans can make a huge group of them in time without an expo. This is the reason why Terran > Zerg in TvZ. If Zerg loses his Lurkerling/ Mutaling army, Zerg is pretty much screwed. Same for Terrans? Nah. By the time they die, another huge group of m&m is already built and ready-to-go. Very cheap cost that almost makes the game unfair. 6 Firebat in early game can make 30 Zerglings take huge casualties…all at the cost of…300 minerals and 150 gas?? But 30 lings cost 750 minerals…
Solution: Marines cost 75 minerals, Medic costs 75 minerals 25 gas, Firebat costs 75 minerals 50 gas. Stim is automatically available without researching.
+ Show Spoiler +lol giving marines instant stimpack? Thats silly, your just silly ^__^. I think if marines auto had stimpack, every game would probably be a bunker rush of some sort. And also why should marines be 75 mins when 2 zergling for 50 minerals can rape the marine without losing either zergling.
Turrets: 20 Damage, Attack Air only, 75 Minerals
Very cost efficient, compared to cannons and spore colonies. Spore does 15 damage, and costs 175 minerals (including drone) That’s more than twice the cost of Turret but does less attack damage than it. Yes, spores have more life than turrets but turrets are repairable.
Cannon seems like a fair-deal because it costs double of Turrets at the reward of being able to attack ground as well but this is actually a bad thing. When Units from dropships get pounded by cannons, as soon as units start dropping, the cannon starts focusing on attacking the units dropped instead. That means that the dropship is safe and so are the other units in the dropship. Not to mention that turrets shoot faster than cannons as well.
One other thing cheap about turrets is that they can be build anywhere on the map unlike cannons or sunken/spores. Cannons need pylon and colonies need creep. Turrets can serve as anti dropship during large battles, while Protoss cannot do the same (pylon/cannon take too long to build, time-wise and cost-wise)
Solution: Make Turrets cost 100 minerals, make Turrets do 15 damage.
+ Show Spoiler +Because spore colony's do 15 Normal damage to turrets 20 explosive damage. Turrets just crumble against effective muta micro. It may seem a little imba that a 75 min building can do 20 damage but if you think about it its actually not Many of the units that actually get hit with the full 20 damage have ALOT of life.
+ Show Spoiler +Goliaths: Oh boy. The most promising ground to air unit has arrived. Initially it does 20 damage but with full upgrades, it can do 32 damage to air units per attack! Furthermore, they have long range, cheap 125 minerals 75 gas, and does decent damage to ground units as well.
Solution: Goliath cost should be turned up to 125 minerals and 125 gas.
Raising the price of goliaths would just make them absolute compared to wraiths.
Terran Dropship: Not much problems here, except the fact that they are faster in speed than an unupgraded shuttle. Need to be the same speed as un upgraded Protoss shuttle to make things fair.
+ Show Spoiler +Ok so there slower then a upgraded shuttle but faster then a un ungraded shuttle.... whats the problem?
well yup im done @_@. everybodys got there own opinions, to you sc seems a little terran favored but to me sc seems almost as balanced as its gonna get ^^.
lol btw sorry for big & confusing post
PS: wow by the time i wrote this post the thread went from 1 page to 4 TT
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What about balacing TvP on the lower levels? Because we all know it's even worse than the PvT imbalance on the higher levels, right?
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On October 17 2008 06:42 Mastermind wrote:This is something I have been thinking about myself. It would definately balance late game pvt. With this change, a 200/200 terran army would be equivalent to a 200/200 protoss army, instead of way more powerful.
Joke?
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On October 17 2008 06:42 Mastermind wrote:This is something I have been thinking about myself. It would definately balance late game pvt. With this change, a 200/200 terran army would be equivalent to a 200/200 protoss army, instead of way more powerful.
Yes because a late game pvt army is not equivalent to a late game tvp army.
I mean who cares about arbiters and storm? Tanks should still be 3 supply, they have vessles with emp which makes arbiters and templars worthless!
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This has to be incontrol trolling.
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Valhalla18444 Posts
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Probes have a ranged attack and a faster acceleration, making them invincible vs scv's in 1v1 combat. Imba.
Probes can create many buildings with just 1 probe.
Probes have shields that regenerate, making them the most effective early harassing scout.
Probes are imba.
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EPT
