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On October 23 2007 10:58 orangedude wrote:Well that's where our opinions differ then, because I don't think it's absolutely not worth the change (due to the possible benefits). I don't plan on trying to convince you (and I don't think you'll convince me), so can't we just agree to disagree and that all sides have valid points? Show nested quote +On October 23 2007 10:57 Aphelion wrote:
Fuu, don't feed him. He signed up on this site just for his one thread about this. Don't give him the satisfaction of couching bad ideas in over abstract formats. Everyone that has spoken has spoken, the TL consensus has been clear. You are just giving him a platform on the TL name. Let this topic die. Aphelion. Just shut up please with your blatantly false accusations. Just because I never posted much before this thread (because Tasteless' thread about competitive issues caught my attention, and I started posting there), doesn't mean I never visited the site. You don't know anything about me. I've been a regular visitor here for almost a year, but only used the site to download VODs and follow the E-Sports scene while lurking. Notice also how I started an MBS thread 5 months after I first signed up for a TL.net account. Oh, I must've warped back in time just to sign up before coming back to post a thread. Secondly, I don't try to make my points abstract. If it appears that way to you, it's probably because you don't understand my point of view or you just disagree with them. Lastly, I was going to let this thread die except when I noticed a response from IntoTheWow to one of my posts that had misinterpreted one of my comments. So, I just posted to correct the misconception, not because I wanted to bring up any new points. Feel free to let the thread die now.
Ok, so you signed up a little before this. Caught me on that. Whoopty-doo. Have you contributed or posted in other way other than MBS? Is it not true that 90% of all your posts about this fucking shitstorm? This little debate about MBS is your pet project, and you know it.
You are getting on more and more on my nerves by the minute. You are fucking arrogant, even if you try to mask it. You compliment and consequently try to brush off good posts of anti-MBSers by saying "great points", like you are some goddamn arbiter of debate who approves when the little kids meet your standards. When someone ardently disagrees with you and points out your flaws, you say they "don't understand you" then rephrase a simple point in four paragraphs to twist the meaning and equivocate with a little vocabulary tricks. If a point based upon BW experience comes up, you either claim its irrelevance or dodge around it with vague and unquantifiable points that "MBS will somehow broaden the base significantly, and somehow improve progaming". If an anti-MBSser wavers a little, you claim them as pro-MBS because they think beta-testing it may not be a bad idea, even all their actual points and arguments have suggested that MBS is bad for the game. And in the case that a person gets tired of you and decides to leave the debate, you hound them out for a "dispassionate response". You are just a fucking troll.
Lastly, you insinuate that the mods selectively regulate their site based upon their own ideas. Do you not remember how your little thread was REEDITTED to remove your disgraceful remarks after it got stuck in a shithole, and your two-week temp ban discretely lifted? After that display of leniency, I am astounded that you have the audacity to imply that the mods are against you?
You are just an articulate troll and you bring nothing to this site. Past the initial few pages of responses, your presence has generated neither intelligent insight nor camaraderie. I don't understand why you are still allowed here, but I sure hope it changes. Soon.
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I post here because I'm genuinely interested in SC2 (and it's future E-Sports scene), and Tasteless' initial thread caught my attention (before that, I was just a lurker). I have no idea why you are here though, since you seem to hate everything about SC2. You have absolutely no right to decide when and where I choose to express my opinions. I read a lot of other threads, including live reports, every single Final Edit (awesome work), the power rankings, and so on and greatly appreciate every aspect of this excellent site, including its community.
I have never once implied that the mods were against me, but I do know that one of the rules on this site is "no flaming" allowed. My temp ban from a long time ago was well-deserved, mainly because you pissed me off so much with your ignorance that I lost my temper. I was about to again in the other MBS thread when you openly attacked me and falsely accused me of all kinds of crap, but I stopped myself because I knew it wouldn't resolve anything. I took my 1-day temp ban to heart, and learned my lesson (to control my anger). You disagree with their lifting of the ban, because it was "lenient" to you? You don't have any right to question the mods' actions, and I hope you understand this.
You, on the other hand, continue your endless flaming of everyone who disagrees with you, mainly because you haven't suffered any consequences for breaking one of the site's commandments repeatedly. You even attempt to disguise your flames with well-constructed paragraphs and openly call other people trolls. Might I remind you how many "fuck"'s, insults and derogatory remarks one of your posts contained in that same thread that directly led to its temporary closing?
They are just being nice to you, because you are a veteran (sharing a similar opinion is just a bonus). This is written in the ten commandments that veterans receive preferential treatment, so I'm not surprised at all that you are still allowed to continue your endless tirade of flaming. I doubt this is going to change anytime soon, but there's nothing at all to be proud of that you can win a battle than you can't possibly lose.
Anyways, I hate arguing with you, because you always end up making completely uncalled for and untrue personal attacks at my character. At the very least, other posters simply criticize my SC skill level, which I can somewhat understand since I'm not the best SC player in the world. I didn't even want to post this response, but I just needed to defend myself against entirely false accusations. This is my last post addressed to you and your ugly personal remarks.
If your goal was to get this thread closed. Congratulations, you've just succeeded (although it should've died long ago anyways). Too bad it's a pretty underhanded approach to doing so.
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I pissed you off with my ignorance? I was the one who wanted to LEAVE the goddamn thread. You hounded me back wanting a "dispassionate" response. You took me leaving the thread as a victory for your argument. I NEVER flamed you before that. Nice job making shit up when those few pages have all be deleted. And your ban was two weeks, and the thread deleted. For their own reasons, the mods changed your suspension to two days and editted the thread to remove your offense (something I've never seen before). Is that not leniency? If that is questioning the mods, then what the fuck is this?
On October 23 2007 11:21 orangedude wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2007 11:00 Fuu wrote:On October 23 2007 10:57 Aphelion wrote:
Fuu, don't feed him. He signed up on this site just for his one thread about this. Don't give him the satisfaction of couching bad ideas in over abstract formats. Everyone that has spoken has spoken, the TL consensus has been clear. You are just giving him a platform on the TL name. Let this topic die. I tried to preach as you did for about your last 100 posts, cause it hurts  Each time i promise to myself that i'll stop but, you know. If by preaching, you mean him flaming the hell out of anyone who was pro-MBS then he sure did a great job. Fortunately most of the mods are also against MBS, so of course he suffers no consequences.
You say that I flame everyone who disagrees with me. Not true. I respected 1esu's opinion, even if I felt his credentials and arguments were lacking, because he was sincerely trying to debate a point. You however, are one of those who would twist and distort arguments to no end to suit your purpose. You flood your posts with points which are completely unprovable and stretches by any reasonable measure, and you nitpick on veteran's posts which actually do contain substance. You have taken all meaning out of an originally important debate.
You may cry foul for all you wish, but the fact stands that every single point I just made is true. A person gets only the benefit of the doubt only for so long. These 60+ pages of debate have revealed your true colors as an insincere and terrible poster. You can't cry wolf anymore.
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Oh really, so this is your idea of respecting someone's opinion?
On October 18 2007 01:58 Aphelion wrote:
Wow, now its the "placement of the AoE that matters more than the cloning"? Omg seriously. Anyone can hotkey a huge mass and spam t click t click accurately, its the selection part of individual spellcasters thats difficult. Don't you think any retard can storm well if its just about placement? Or irradiate with mass vessels? You got to AT LEAST PLAY THE GAME SOME before you say something so gameplay specific like that. This game isn't all theorycrafting with words, you know!
His response:
On October 18 2007 13:07 1esu wrote:I didn't mean this post to be a flame, but as of late your arrogance and utter hostility towards those who don't share your view, even if they know far more about what makes a good game than you do, is really harming the credibility of your position. And that's a shame, since some of your arguments are quite good, in my opinion. And you do keep me from overstepping my bounds at times. 
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I questioned his credibility and his understanding of the game when he made a truly stupid point. But I never claimed that he was simply out here to win a debate regardless of consequences, even if I feel the way he puts his points forward is counterproductive.
You, on the other hand, are just a troll. You would do anything to win a debate, and you would willfuly twist arguments and develop completely illogical and convoluted theories to try to hold on to your original point. I have zero respect for you at all, because your insincerity is a disrespect to this entire forum.
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Guess what, 1esu was right. You do show open hostility and arrogance towards anyone who disagrees with you. I can find countless quotes of this happening littered throughout the forums.
Just because I defend myself and what I truly believe in, that makes me insincere and a troll? Just because you said so? Oh please. Show me where I twisted any arguments (if I ever did, I might've just misunderstood or misinterpreted but I've never done it purposefully). It's far more often that you have twisted my posts to make me look worse. I only debate this because it's on a topic that I actually care about (SC2), since I am also a big fan of SC and the Korean scene.
Okay, I'm done here. Someone just close this thread. I don't want to spend one more second arguing with this guy who just knows how to hurl out insults.
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After the first 10 pages you can make that argument. After 60+ pages of increasingly convoluted arguments to save your point and continous nitpicking of the truly qualified, it is clear that it is deliberate. Its not just any specific instances, its the entire way you word arguments and gradually shifting to cover your bases. That lies at the root of most veteran's frustration with you and how arguments start degenerated into name-calling. Its because you deserve it.
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And the personal attacks continue... I've never "nitpicked" any veterans' arguments. I've only pointed problems out when one of them occasionally makes a sweeping general statement to categorize all people who are not anti-MBS as noobs who have zero understanding of the game. In fact, I generally agree on most of their points and can see their reasons for their beliefs.
I'm one of the few still posting, because most others simply don't make very convincing arguments or don't care enough to keep going. Even then, I tend to only respond when someone makes an attack directed at me or if someone legitimately misinterpreted the meaning of one of my statements (like IntoTheWow).
I'm not at all surprised that some veterans are annoyed, because if it weren't for me and a few of us left, these forums would be unanimously anti-MBS, which they would much prefer. I won't blame them either, because they truly believe that MBS is a very bad thing. At the same time, I really do believe that the benefits in other areas (non-gameplay wise) that come along with it could potentially make up for it. Thus, I advocate to wait until beta and if need-be, I'm all for removing it then.
Someone, PLEASE just close this thread.
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Ah, no. Thats just wrong.
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I've been watching the MBS debate for a long time here, and the last page has made me want to respond more than anything else I've ever read.
There are some good Anti-MBS posters out there (nony jumps immediately to mind), but unforunately Aphelion is not one of them.
Since the inception of the MBS debate you have argued as though the wind of fate was behind your back, as though you were fighting for some grand cause which made all of your ridiculous flaming justifable. Never have I read a poster whose arrogance and smarminess seethed from every word of his posts. Whenever an anti-MBS poster makes a good argument, you are there to reiterate and gloat. You have contributed little of substantiation to the debate, instead content to flame with whoever disagrees with you and speak for the mods and the Tl.net community as though you alone could give word to their collective conscious. I think its bullshit, I think you are a liability to the Anti-MBS side and a discredit to the entire debate.
Orangedude has tried his hardest to present a rational point and counter point, speaking for the Pro-MBS side in the face of a massive deluge of Anti-MBS sentiment.
There is a point in this debate and that is that both sides have a valid point in the argument, and whenver I hear somebody from either side toss it aside like there is none, I am frustrated.
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Firstly, your all emo. You sound as bad as DoTA'ers and it makes me sick. You sound like DoTA'ers trying to explain why they are good players because they are 'good at DoTA metagame'. Yes the word they created because obviously DoTA has no macro, and little micro (you control 1 guy for gods sake), and there must be something that differentiates DoTA from a game of solitaire. I haven't seen a valid argument against MBS yet. The best the lot of you can come up with are the same as those 'expert DoTAers' who don't want their game to change ever. Even though there are huge huge huge flaws in that game.
Secondly, Orangedude Idra and Aphelion, stop posting please. You 3 account for 40% of the posts in this topic. I did find it funny orangedude got accused of trolling by one of those 2 other trolls. I guess it takes one to know one.
Idra you are an idiot. Your a first class DoTA'er. This is no compliment. No, I won't bother explaining myself, there is no point. But you must have great SC metagame knowledge.
Orangedude stop feeding these trolls. Even in this MBS poll, in this site, there are more people that think there should be a MBS than those who are against it. Needless to say, outside of this site, probably 95%+ of people will want a MBS. There is no reason to argue. Blizzard would have to be idiots not to put one in. Hopefully it is as good as the AoE2:Conquerers MBS.
Aphelion I was polite because you say you used to play AoC. But now that I have read most of your posts, and seen how many you have, more than anyone else by far, well I'm not going to be anymore. You flat out must have sucked at AoC to have the opinions you do. Seriously. Almost everything you say is completely untrue unless your a sub 1600 player. There are a few valid points that you have, but not many.
And considering how bad I am very sure you are at one game, you should not be one to talk so much about what you do about another. Because if your good at one game, you're probably going to be good at the next one you play, and the inverse (where I think you are) is true as well. There are only 2 points you have that are true, which I will address, in your last reply to me. Everything else you stated, completely untrue. Completely.
On October 20 2007 09:59 Aphelion wrote:
Age micro is more like a constant grind, whereas SC's micro is like a flame, ready to explode into brilliance at any moment.
This is true. Because SC has no MBS. Because of that, you are not constantly creating your armies even in battle. You lose your army in SC your in trouble, lose your army in AoC you just make another a little ways back. Again, because of no MBS.
On October 20 2007 09:59 Aphelion wrote:
In Age, you could hotkey many buildings together, but not produce from them. If you did 5-T 5TTTTT for example, all the hussars get produced in the first stable.
This is also technically true. I re-installed AoC so I would have my facts straight, well and so I could play it again. If you did 5TTTTT, yes, you don't get all the hussars from all the stables in group 5. But this is a non-issue. Because you could scroll through your stables so fast with your 'next stable' hot key and mass queue hussars yourself if you were any good at all. Good players never had a problem queuing units (again you must not have been a very good player at all to have any troubles), and this MBS model is by far the best one I've seen in any game so far.
Everything else, completely untrue, and you should start posting less before I start calling you a DoTA'er.
Anyways I've said my peace, and it really doesn't matter what I say or what anyone replies to this will say. Because like I said, even on a site like this, more people are pro-MBS than those that aren't, and 95% of anyone else will definately want the good controls of a good MBS. So it is inevitable that there will be MBS. Like it or not. Hopefully it will be good like AoE2:Conquerers.
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Like I said, I only responded when someone made an attack directed personally at me or if someone legitimately misinterpreted the meaning of one of my statements (like IntoTheWow did). I'm not allowed to defend myself? Otherwise, I'm all for letting this thread die its long overdue death, and definitely not out here to "troll".
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EPT
