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On August 09 2017 14:00 Archeon wrote:
Can we stop pretending that BW's long time "success" and SC2's dwindling have anything to do with each other? BW kept a dwindling core group in exactly one country, Sc2 had overall good sales, but eventually declined like pretty much every non-teambased game nowadays.
Why are SC2 people always so concerned with deflecting blame onto anything and anyone but themselves? Why can it never have anything to do with SC2 itself? The other day I saw TB blaming "BW elitism" for how poorly the SC2 community treated its own caster Husky. How about you take responsibility for your own game/community every once in a goddamn while?
Add to that that if BW was to come out today under a different name, it would sell as well as rotten tomatoes.
Please. If Chess came out today it wouldn't "sell" well either (why are you so concerned with sales numbers anyway, is this the accounting olympics?), but it would undoubtedly gain a dedicated following of people who appreciate the genius of it. A following that wouldn't be fickle and switch to Checkers the instant it's released because there's an actual timeless quality to the game.
In 10 years time there's a very good chance SC:R will far outstrip SC2's popularity in every category, even in your beloved west. Because by then SC2 would have none of the plastic corporate artificial hype left. It would finally have to fend for its own without its sugar daddy Blizzard. All that would remain are mediocre graphics and dubious gameplay.
Sc2 was destined to die eventually even if it was less restricting.
Stop.
I also don't agree at all that Blizz trying to rebalance the game harmed it. Popularity in the end of WoL didnt plummet because the game was hard to grasp, but because it was stale, if anything the expansions and balance patches kept it alive.
Again, you have this erroneous perception that a game needs to change just for the sake of change so that the players won't get bored. Guess what? If a game is good enough it doesn't need to be put in an endless update carousel of bells and whistles. If it needs that to keep players interested, it's not a good game.
For identification purposes. It's easier to root for somebody who has some similarities with you. Add to that that Koreans come from a completely different ethnic group and that people who don't deal with a lot of Asians have difficulties to keep them apart
How about you at least try to put your jingoism aside and gain a better understanding of Korean society? Us BW enthusiasts never had a problem with that; I'm sure you can manage too.
Personally I dislike most major Starcraft personalities from my own country as they give off smug douchey vibes, but I am forever thankful to the Korean BW scene for providing me and many others glimpses of another culture that would otherwise be unknown to us.
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Deathballs and lack of social/chat channels, among other things. When SC2 was under development, me and many others where worried over what we saw and voiced our concern over these issues among others. In the end Blizz didn't listen to any of this and constructed a game that was quite good but not at all what it could have been.
SC2 is just such a lonely experience, while BW in it's prime was a very social thing. Hanging out in the chat channels, obbing games, clan recruitments and clan wars all the time, it was great.
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On August 09 2017 18:35 Jae Zedong wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2017 14:00 Archeon wrote:
Can we stop pretending that BW's long time "success" and SC2's dwindling have anything to do with each other? BW kept a dwindling core group in exactly one country, Sc2 had overall good sales, but eventually declined like pretty much every non-teambased game nowadays. Why are SC2 people always so concerned with deflecting blame onto anything and anyone but themselves? Why can it never have anything to do with SC2 itself? The other day I saw TB blaming "BW elitism" for how poorly the SC2 community treated its own caster Husky. How about you take responsibility for your own game/community every once in a goddamn while?
why are you so concerned with blaming sc2 as some sort of unique failure, when it's had a normal to above-average life cycle for a multiplayer game? bw is the outlier here, it's had an unusually long lifespan, partly due to luck and partly because it's an unusually good competitive game.
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Following BW introduced me to contemporary Korean culture at least as much as my Korean friends did (and more so than my Korean Canadian friends did lol).
"Hey that dude has the same skin color as me! Better root for him!" is a dumb idea
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On August 09 2017 18:50 -NegativeZero- wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2017 18:35 Jae Zedong wrote:On August 09 2017 14:00 Archeon wrote:
Can we stop pretending that BW's long time "success" and SC2's dwindling have anything to do with each other? BW kept a dwindling core group in exactly one country, Sc2 had overall good sales, but eventually declined like pretty much every non-teambased game nowadays. Why are SC2 people always so concerned with deflecting blame onto anything and anyone but themselves? Why can it never have anything to do with SC2 itself? The other day I saw TB blaming "BW elitism" for how poorly the SC2 community treated its own caster Husky. How about you take responsibility for your own game/community every once in a goddamn while? why are you so concerned with blaming sc2 as some sort of unique failure, when it's had a normal to above-average life cycle for a multiplayer game? bw is the outlier here, it's had an unusually long lifespan, partly due to luck and partly because it's an unusually good competitive game.
Its just because of South Korea, when Korea developed youth culture was able to develop alongside video games and at the time the video game of choice happened to be Starcraft. Therefore video games became part of youth culture.
If there was no Korean Starcraft scene the game would have been dead in 2002.
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Even though I don't really enjoying\playing sc2 lately, saying that sc2 was wrecked means not being honest. The game still has an healty playerbase, there are lots of tournaments for both koreans and foreigners,patch are being made, new commanders are released and the coop itself attracted lots of casuals.
You did not like sc2 and it's fine, but the game is not as bad you are describing it.
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On August 09 2017 19:31 raff100 wrote:
Even though I don't really enjoying\playing sc2 lately, saying that sc2 was wrecked means not being honest. The game still has an healty playerbase, there are lots of tournaments for both koreans and foreigners,patch are being made, new commanders are released and the coop itself attracted lots of casuals.
You did not like sc2 and it's fine, but the game is not as bad you are describing it.
In this moment, the game has less viewers on twitch than GTA V, RuneScape, PAth of Exile, Rainbow Six and many many others. 15th in general games.
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ya, and Warcraft3, C&C4, AoE3, and Company of Heroes 2 have how many viewers now?
if you believe Destiny's viewer count i've got some viewbots for sale... real cheap. go to any Destiny channel's chat for a good laugh.
the entire genre has been marginalized by improving tech providing increased consumer choice; this has happened with many other genres throughout the 40 year history of video games. same shit, different decade.
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On August 09 2017 21:16 JimmyJRaynor wrote:ya, and Warcraft3, C&C4, AoE3, and Company of Heroes 2 have how many viewers now? if you believe Destiny's viewer count i've got some viewbots for sale... real cheap. go to any Destiny channel's chat for a good laugh. the entire genre has been marginalized by improving tech providing increased consumer choice; this has happened with many other genres throughout the 40 year history of video games. same shit, different decade.
^ same flawed logic, same false conclusions
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On August 09 2017 22:22 ProMeTheus112 wrote:
same flawed logic, same false conclusions
what we have here is several RTS hard core evangelists who can't see the forest through the trees.
no one has explained how games within in genre can get better and have less long term popularity. which has happened lots and lots of times. automatically assuming game quality guarantees long term popularity is the most flawed thing in this thread.
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Sc2 was great early on. Why? Because it was always action early game. 1-3 units pushes in tvp. it made the game action packed. You guys turned it into a boring god damn game to watch where nothing happens for the first several minutes because any race can just safely expand due to all the balance changes. Bring back the early rushes. Make the game action packed. Buff sentry attack damage again and bring back the early zealot/sentry gateway aggro openings from the beta. The old guard was probably the most negative influence on this game pushing it into what I like to refer it as "sim city". You build up for 10 minutes and the game is decided in 2 battles. It's fucking stupid. You should have to fight for your life to expand. viewership declined because the game became boring as shit to watch. No this isn't me hating on the game, i've loved starcraft 1 and 2 since they both came out. I won't even play sc2 anymore because of the direction it went in. I play bw from time to time just for nostalgia.
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On August 09 2017 22:51 ReachTheSky wrote:
Sc2 was great early on. Why? Because it was always action early game. 1-3 units pushes in tvp. it made the game action packed. You guys turned it into a boring god damn game to watch where nothing happens for the first several minutes because any race can just safely expand due to all the balance changes. Bring back the early rushes. Make the game action packed. Buff sentry attack damage again and bring back the early zealot/sentry gateway aggro openings from the beta. The old guard was probably the most negative influence on this game pushing it into what I like to refer it as "sim city". You build up for 10 minutes and the game is decided in 2 battles. It's fucking stupid. You should have to fight for your life to expand.
Beta for WoL was also plagued with 1 base builds, retarded shit such as the 7RR, 3 immortal pushes outright killing zergs, voidrays having 9?maybe 10 range? but WoL in general was not that bad.
It took them a couple of expansions to make Hydralisks not complete dogshit. And lets not forget when Colossi did what was it 48? damage a swipe
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On August 09 2017 22:53 arb wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2017 22:51 ReachTheSky wrote:
Sc2 was great early on. Why? Because it was always action early game. 1-3 units pushes in tvp. it made the game action packed. You guys turned it into a boring god damn game to watch where nothing happens for the first several minutes because any race can just safely expand due to all the balance changes. Bring back the early rushes. Make the game action packed. Buff sentry attack damage again and bring back the early zealot/sentry gateway aggro openings from the beta. The old guard was probably the most negative influence on this game pushing it into what I like to refer it as "sim city". You build up for 10 minutes and the game is decided in 2 battles. It's fucking stupid. You should have to fight for your life to expand. Beta for WoL was also plagued with 1 base builds, retarded shit such as the 7RR, 3 immortal pushes outright killing zergs, voidrays having 9?maybe 10 range? but WoL in general was not that bad. It took them a couple of expansions to make Hydralisks not complete dogshit. And lets not forget when Colossi did what was it 48? damage a swipe
point is, the game isn't action packed. It's more like sim city/civ 5 combined. No wonder viewership declined. What attracted people early on was the action, it kept viewers on the edge of their seat excited to see what would happen next. Instead, viewers have to listen to terrible filler from casters waiting for action.
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Too much community input. Each expansion was worse than the previous game.
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One intersting thing about this topic being in BW forum is seeing how the majority of the old school BW fans believes that the things they liked on BW would help SC2's success. I think it's flawed logic. Chat channels, UMS games etc. were undoubtedly a great thing in the BW age, but they really don't mean that much nowadays, because there are just so many alternatives now. I know it's hard to realize own biases. A BW fan sees that he and all his buddies like those things, so it has to be great, right? But the BW community is pretty small despite all these things existing in BW, in particular the non-korean part of it. If SC2 was to the liking of you guys, would it really change anything? It seems to me that you are trying to answer the question: "why isn't SC2 popular among BW fans", which is howevet irrelevant anywhere outside korea.
I have already said that I don't consider SC2 "wrecked", but it's true that it could probably have done better in terms of popularity numbers if it had been managed differently by Blizzard. But I am quite sure that it would have done worse if Blizzard listened to you lot. Yeah, you'd have liked it more, but you simply aren't the majir demographic for the market anymore.
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Seems like a flawed argument, you're saying since there are alternatives they shouldn't try to make a better product? The reason Dota, LoL and CS are so popular is because it's much more of a social game which is what we were advocating for SC2, they failed us
the actual game is whatever, some like it, some don't, I personally think WoL was better than the expansions but I think the lonely experience of SC2 is what was its biggest downfall
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Japan11286 Posts
What I don't get about people whining/discussing sc2 is that it seems that 1/2 say there's too much community input and there's the other half that says blizz didn't listen enough.
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Let me summarize all the arguments from SC2 people so far
+ Show Spoiler +
User was warned for this post
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On August 09 2017 23:40 c3rberUs wrote:
What I don't get about people whining/discussing sc2 is that it seems that 1/2 say there's too much community input and there's the other half that says blizz didn't listen enough.
blizzard listened too much to the old guard and the game became sim city/civ 5.
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On August 09 2017 22:51 ReachTheSky wrote:
Sc2 was great early on. Why? Because it was always action early game. 1-3 units pushes in tvp. it made the game action packed. You guys turned it into a boring god damn game to watch where nothing happens for the first several minutes because any race can just safely expand due to all the balance changes. Bring back the early rushes. Make the game action packed. Buff sentry attack damage again and bring back the early zealot/sentry gateway aggro openings from the beta. The old guard was probably the most negative influence on this game pushing it into what I like to refer it as "sim city". You build up for 10 minutes and the game is decided in 2 battles. It's fucking stupid. You should have to fight for your life to expand. viewership declined because the game became boring as shit to watch. No this isn't me hating on the game, i've loved starcraft 1 and 2 since they both came out. I won't even play sc2 anymore because of the direction it went in. I play bw from time to time just for nostalgia.
Bro you fucking nailed it ! I honestly played LOTV just for the campaign , I personally can not stand player multiplayer at all , so I just play DOW 3 and Wc3 for some serious 1v1 action , I played around 5000 games in WOL (by no means am I pro , Im a shit player , this is my personal view), I was having the time of my fucking life , loved that shit ! then one day maps became bigger (i still dread the day taldarim altar was introduced) , rushes and micro heavy strategies were nerfed to hell....bl/infestor came along , HOTS was exciting for a while ..... then one day I reinstalled Wc3 and never looked back.
Not saying Sc2 is a shit game or that sc2 is on trouble currently , hell to the fuck no it aint and no objective person can make that argument , it just doesn't appeal to me the way WOL did , and this is my personal subjective view , I like action packed games full of rushes , cheese and micro , with the occasional macro option if I wanna do that, and games that also allows other people to bring in their favorite play styles....that was WOL for me , currently I play DOW 3 and that game still has a looooooooong way to go before even seeing let alone reaching sc2 feet in terms of everything honestly, but as a consumer I'm having fun , and that is what matters to me , im sure this is the case for many others.....and Blizzard failed to see that.
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