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On February 26 2016 04:59 Teoita wrote:
I agree i think LFR is a massive mistake. They should have stuck with the Wotlk raiding model imo.
Wraths was really awful too, with the ammount of badge gear, it took away all the progression OP was talking about.
For me, I don't really mind, it lets casuals see the content, that they pay for, I have my higher difficulty. When there are times throughout the year, I can't commit to a 12-16 hour raiding guild, there's a lesser difficulty for me to enjoy and see the content. I'd rather than than "Oh... I can't raid anymore... I guess I'll do Karazhan for the rest of my life".
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[QUOTE]On February 26 2016 05:01 Gorsameth wrote:
[QUOTE]On February 26 2016 04:45 DickMcFanny wrote:
What your basically saying is you want to the game to force you to do something you don't enjoy because you then enjoy it?
[/QUOTE]
Well, no. The game forced me to do things I did end up enjoying and make friends with people I wouldn't have otherwise met.
Would I have farmed fifty hours at the elemental plateau, taking the piss with my friends at teamspeak, slayin' Horde players left and right, if I could have just queued straight into Illidan? No, probably not.
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On February 26 2016 05:11 lestye wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2016 04:59 Teoita wrote:
I agree i think LFR is a massive mistake. They should have stuck with the Wotlk raiding model imo. Wraths was really awful too, with the ammount of badge gear, it took away all the progression OP was talking about. For me, I don't really mind, it lets casuals see the content, that they pay for, I have my higher difficulty. When there are times throughout the year, I can't commit to a 12-16 hour raiding guild, there's a lesser difficulty for me to enjoy and see the content. I'd rather than than "Oh... I can't raid anymore... I guess I'll do Karazhan for the rest of my life".
BC had a TON of catchup mechanics.
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On February 26 2016 05:14 DickMcFanny wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2016 05:11 lestye wrote:On February 26 2016 04:59 Teoita wrote:
I agree i think LFR is a massive mistake. They should have stuck with the Wotlk raiding model imo. Wraths was really awful too, with the ammount of badge gear, it took away all the progression OP was talking about. For me, I don't really mind, it lets casuals see the content, that they pay for, I have my higher difficulty. When there are times throughout the year, I can't commit to a 12-16 hour raiding guild, there's a lesser difficulty for me to enjoy and see the content. I'd rather than than "Oh... I can't raid anymore... I guess I'll do Karazhan for the rest of my life". BC had a TON of catchup mechanics.
Nowhere even close to today. You had badge gear which involved a lot of Kara and Heroics.
Compare that to Wrath where you got 232 gear just by doing heroics and you could waltz into ICC. You couldnt do that with Sunwell.
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On February 26 2016 04:59 Teoita wrote:
I agree i think LFR is a massive mistake. They should have stuck with the Wotlk raiding model imo.
I honestly think that was the best raid model.
You didn't have hard content locks, like having to beat two ultra difficult bosses to raid T6 content, but they had a mode for everyone. Everyone BUT the absolutely antisocial facerollers.
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On February 26 2016 05:16 lestye wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2016 05:14 DickMcFanny wrote:On February 26 2016 05:11 lestye wrote:On February 26 2016 04:59 Teoita wrote:
I agree i think LFR is a massive mistake. They should have stuck with the Wotlk raiding model imo. Wraths was really awful too, with the ammount of badge gear, it took away all the progression OP was talking about. For me, I don't really mind, it lets casuals see the content, that they pay for, I have my higher difficulty. When there are times throughout the year, I can't commit to a 12-16 hour raiding guild, there's a lesser difficulty for me to enjoy and see the content. I'd rather than than "Oh... I can't raid anymore... I guess I'll do Karazhan for the rest of my life". BC had a TON of catchup mechanics. Nowhere even close to today. You had badge gear which involved a lot of Kara and Heroics. Compare that to Wrath where you got 232 gear just by doing heroics and you could waltz into ICC. You couldnt do that with Sunwell.
No, but you could do that with the T6 raids.
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On February 26 2016 05:16 lestye wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2016 05:14 DickMcFanny wrote:On February 26 2016 05:11 lestye wrote:On February 26 2016 04:59 Teoita wrote:
I agree i think LFR is a massive mistake. They should have stuck with the Wotlk raiding model imo. Wraths was really awful too, with the ammount of badge gear, it took away all the progression OP was talking about. For me, I don't really mind, it lets casuals see the content, that they pay for, I have my higher difficulty. When there are times throughout the year, I can't commit to a 12-16 hour raiding guild, there's a lesser difficulty for me to enjoy and see the content. I'd rather than than "Oh... I can't raid anymore... I guess I'll do Karazhan for the rest of my life". BC had a TON of catchup mechanics. Nowhere even close to today. You had badge gear which involved a lot of Kara and Heroics. Compare that to Wrath where you got 232 gear just by doing heroics and you could waltz into ICC. You couldnt do that with Sunwell.
Indeed, you ran into Karazhan in your quest blues, did that 10000x for badges and then walked into Sunwell.
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Italy12246 Posts
Catchup mechanics need to be there, if anything to make alts and class switching viable. The problem i have with LFR is that, no matter what people say, unless you're in a cutting edge mythic guild it's basically impossible to disregard it completely, and it's absolutely AWFUL content imo. I'm fine with letting casuals see endgame content if they want to, i'm not fine with LFR being THE catching up/gearing mechanic. That's just lazy, i think the badge/extra 5man content (which was also challenging!) in wotlk was much better for the players.
Of course, making a raid completely non challenging is much easier for Blizzard, so they can then focus on bnet shop mounts which is probably way more lucrative 
Also i can't really comment on catchup mechanics during TBC since i was in a raiding guild for most of the time i played during that, so i just kinda always got gear from raiding (and crafting because TBC tailoring sets were OP as fuck).
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On February 26 2016 05:19 DickMcFanny wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2016 05:16 lestye wrote:On February 26 2016 05:14 DickMcFanny wrote:On February 26 2016 05:11 lestye wrote:On February 26 2016 04:59 Teoita wrote:
I agree i think LFR is a massive mistake. They should have stuck with the Wotlk raiding model imo. Wraths was really awful too, with the ammount of badge gear, it took away all the progression OP was talking about. For me, I don't really mind, it lets casuals see the content, that they pay for, I have my higher difficulty. When there are times throughout the year, I can't commit to a 12-16 hour raiding guild, there's a lesser difficulty for me to enjoy and see the content. I'd rather than than "Oh... I can't raid anymore... I guess I'll do Karazhan for the rest of my life". BC had a TON of catchup mechanics. Nowhere even close to today. You had badge gear which involved a lot of Kara and Heroics. Compare that to Wrath where you got 232 gear just by doing heroics and you could waltz into ICC. You couldnt do that with Sunwell. No, but you could do that with the T6 raids.
Which would be EXTREMELY old content by then. It's hard to get excited for a new patch when there's 0 content for you to enjoy. That's the benefit of the current model. There's something for everybody. It's not like "only 5-10% of the subscribers are allowed in to enjoy this content, pce"
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On February 26 2016 05:21 Teoita wrote:Catchup mechanics need to be there, if anything to make alts and class switching viable. The problem i have with LFR is that, no matter what people say, unless you're in a cutting edge mythic guild it's basically impossible to disregard it completely, and it's absolutely AWFUL content imo. I'm fine with letting casuals see endgame content if they want to, i'm not fine with LFR being THE catching up/gearing mechanic. That's just lazy, i think the badge/extra 5man content (which was also challenging!) in wotlk was much better for the players. Of course, making a raid completely non challenging is much easier for Blizzard, so they can then focus on bnet shop mounts which is probably way more lucrative Also i can't really comment on catchup mechanics during TBC since i was in a raiding guild for most of the time i played during that, so i just kinda always got gear from raiding (and crafting because TBC tailoring sets were OP as fuck).
Tanaar and PVP gives items of equal level as Normal HFC. Currently LFR has no real purpose except letting baddies pretend to raid (and it gives valor).
I agree with you tho that LFR should not be the way.
The Wrath model is in large parts what we have today, 3 instead of 2 raid difficulties and more flexible raid size then 10 or 25.
The highest level being 20m only is because 2 sizes were simply to diverse for Blizzard to balance enough to warrant the prestige of being the highest level.
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On February 26 2016 05:24 lestye wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2016 05:19 DickMcFanny wrote:On February 26 2016 05:16 lestye wrote:On February 26 2016 05:14 DickMcFanny wrote:On February 26 2016 05:11 lestye wrote:On February 26 2016 04:59 Teoita wrote:
I agree i think LFR is a massive mistake. They should have stuck with the Wotlk raiding model imo. Wraths was really awful too, with the ammount of badge gear, it took away all the progression OP was talking about. For me, I don't really mind, it lets casuals see the content, that they pay for, I have my higher difficulty. When there are times throughout the year, I can't commit to a 12-16 hour raiding guild, there's a lesser difficulty for me to enjoy and see the content. I'd rather than than "Oh... I can't raid anymore... I guess I'll do Karazhan for the rest of my life". BC had a TON of catchup mechanics. Nowhere even close to today. You had badge gear which involved a lot of Kara and Heroics. Compare that to Wrath where you got 232 gear just by doing heroics and you could waltz into ICC. You couldnt do that with Sunwell. No, but you could do that with the T6 raids. Which would be EXTREMELY old content by then. It's hard to get excited for a new patch when there's 0 content for you to enjoy. That's the benefit of the current model. There's something for everybody. It's not like "only 5-10% of the subscribers are allowed in to enjoy this content, pce"
2.3 added a giant questing zone, a heroic and non-heroic dungeon, both of which were really helpful to catch up.
When 2.3 hit, Magister's Terrace Heroic was the thing my group of friends was most excited about.
I'm not saying that there shouldn't be ways to catch up, or even catch up quickly.
I'm saying that LFR, at least for me, took a lot of enjoyment out of the game and I personally regard the act of LFRing as the most tedious grind I have experienced in WoW so far. And that's coming from someone who was exalted with the Cenarion Circle at Level 60.
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Magisterce's Terrace gear had the equivalent of Kara gear. Which is like 2 1/2 tiers below the "current" gear. That doesn't help you too much.
If I was a random guy, and I stopped raiding at Kael, BT, Vasj, or whatever, and I wanted to do the casual life, I'm not going to find gear or content to help progress my character as a casual. If I saw a patch was coming out, there's no upgrades in the dungeon, and there's no casual raid for me to do, I'm stuck in lesser old content. So that's something that you should consider.
I get why LFR is not desirable to you, but you don't need to do LFR, especially in Legion.
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On February 26 2016 05:33 lestye wrote:
Magisterce's Terrace gear had the equivalent of Kara gear. Which is like 2 1/2 tiers below the "current" gear. That doesn't help you too much.
I get why LFR is not desirable to you, but you don't need to do LFR, especially in Legion.
I explained why simply the availability of LFR kills my enjoyment. I'm not saying that's universal, or that LFR is a net negative.
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Italy12246 Posts
Dude hc Magister's Terrace was fucking awesome (and iirc the gear in it was better than kara?).
On February 26 2016 05:26 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2016 05:21 Teoita wrote:Catchup mechanics need to be there, if anything to make alts and class switching viable. The problem i have with LFR is that, no matter what people say, unless you're in a cutting edge mythic guild it's basically impossible to disregard it completely, and it's absolutely AWFUL content imo. I'm fine with letting casuals see endgame content if they want to, i'm not fine with LFR being THE catching up/gearing mechanic. That's just lazy, i think the badge/extra 5man content (which was also challenging!) in wotlk was much better for the players. Of course, making a raid completely non challenging is much easier for Blizzard, so they can then focus on bnet shop mounts which is probably way more lucrative Also i can't really comment on catchup mechanics during TBC since i was in a raiding guild for most of the time i played during that, so i just kinda always got gear from raiding (and crafting because TBC tailoring sets were OP as fuck). Tanaar and PVP gives items of equal level as Normal HFC. Currently LFR has no real purpose except letting baddies pretend to raid (and it gives valor). I agree with you tho that LFR should not be the way. The Wrath model is in large parts what we have today, 3 instead of 2 raid difficulties and more flexible raid size then 10 or 25. The highest level being 20m only is because 2 sizes were simply to diverse for Blizzard to balance enough to warrant the prestige of being the highest level.
I haven't played since 6.1, but in that case it sounds like Normal HFC is just completely pointless. If Valor is as big of a deal as it was during MoP, it sounds like LFR is mandatory, am i missing something?
What i mean by "wotlk model" is more or less: 5man > catchup/casual content; normal raids > "casual raid" content; heroic raids > "hardcore content" (of course none knows wtf a casual or hardcore player is so it's not so easy to draw boundaries). I think the introduction of Flex is absolutely brilliant, but i don't understand what the point of having normal AND heroic (since they are basically just as difficult at the appropriate level of gear), and again i deeply dislike LFR (and other completely and utterly faceroll content such as dailies tbh) as a catchup mechanic over 5man content like the ICC dungeons or Magister's Terrace.
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hc magister's terrace was indeed awesome. I really really hope they go back to adding patch dungeons that help the story, like the ICC 5mans and MT. I'm just saying the gear in there wasn't going to help you catch up to current content. HC's ilvl was the same as Kharazan.
On February 26 2016 05:43 DickMcFanny wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2016 05:33 lestye wrote:
Magisterce's Terrace gear had the equivalent of Kara gear. Which is like 2 1/2 tiers below the "current" gear. That doesn't help you too much.
I get why LFR is not desirable to you, but you don't need to do LFR, especially in Legion. I explained why simply the availability of LFR kills my enjoyment. I'm not saying that's universal, or that LFR is a net negative.
Alright, I suppose I don't follow why you're choosing to do content that's not enjoyable or necessary. I have friends who don't enjoy challenges, who don't enjoy progression, Mythic Raiding existing isn't bothering them.
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The only use for Valor is upgrading items by 2x 5 extra itemlevels at 250 each (so 500 to upgrade an item twice).
100 for the first daily hc dungeon per day
300 per Mythic Dungeon (8 dungeons)
500 for completing a weekly quest
150 per wing of LFR (5 wings)
You don't really get enough items to need a lot of valor per week.
I wouldn't call Normal and Heroic equal at their respective gear level. For a good player they are both trivial but there is a good portion of the population for who the increased requirements of HC are noticable.
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Oh, I stand corrected. You have to do LFR to get Valor. I forgot about that. I totally get that complaint.
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Italy12246 Posts
Personally during the "recent" patches i have been seriously active in (5.4, 6.0 and 6.1) i never once felt like LFR was unecessary, either for the legendary quest (catching up, or getting it out of the way before raid times to have your ring faster) or as a catchup mechanic. Maybe i was just unlucky, but it's the impression i had and a huge reason why i dislike it so much. Same goes for the heroic scenarios during MoP, when they were the best way to farm Valor.
I wouldn't call Normal and Heroic equal at their respective gear level. For a good player they are both trivial but there is a good portion of the population for who the increased requirements of HC are noticable.
Really? They both seemed very close to the old normal mode (say icc 10) raids to me.
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I pretty much gave up on anything outside raiding a few months ago. I wanted to buy some rep-gated mounts from Wrath (grinded the reps back in MoP with all the useless justice points, but was too poor to afford all those mounts at the time) when I discovered all of them had been reset to default...
What's the point of leveling a new character? Gearing is trivial, you can get normal-level gear from solo content, can't pug hc cause no ring on that alt. Can't even stand pugs in the first place, lots of loud mouths tunnelling the boss and blaming others for wiping.
Guild is almost dead outside raids and the occasional "let me do 5 tw dungeons or mythics on an alt or 2". Even our raiding roster is not looking good. We had to bring in undergeared DK alts on Mannoroth for lol-grips, now we're struggling with Archimonde cause some people can't be bothered to do tactics and either die from chains aoe or kill people with lasers. Can't replace them because we have no backups. Don't get me started on our 2 out of 3 tanks that have attendance issues (and off-spec tanks are missing proper trinkets).
WoW in general went to hell around late Wrath due to the decision to focus almost exclusively on end-game raiding. Too much standardization, too much streamlining. Cata destroyed what little flavor was left in 1-58 range. Why did you have to take away the 5s rule? The talent system? What was wrong with spell ranks and fixed mana costs? What was wrong with returning to a trainer to get new spells? What was wrong with some abilities having better scaling but worse base damage than others?
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Italy12246 Posts
Tbh every expansion adding 10 new points of "your ability does x% more damage!' was pretty silly, i can live without that. I rather like the current talent system, i enjoy swapping my talents to optimize for every fight.
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EPT
