On November 06 2015 04:47 LunarPenguin wrote: Hi Gyrus,
I think what you are talking about is mindfulness. When the top players play, they are literally unaware of anything else, but the game. When you reach a certain level of focus, the experience of 'self' falls away, and in this state of mind, there is no fear, worry, insecurities etc. Focusing on anything (not just starcraft) can get you into a state of mindfulness. This is the basis of meditation. I reckon the top players reach this level of focus more times than less skilled players.
Everyone experiences mindfulness sometimes. It happens when you focus so hard on something that everything else, even the 'self' falls away, and you are completely on autodrive. Mindfulness is the same as completely being in the present moment.
"...one where the player constantly sheds a euphoria of beauty for how the game plays itself." This is a good description of that very feeling.
If you are interested I would suggest you look up 'Sam Harris on Mindfulness', a neuroscientist who has explored this idea in great depth. This video is very enlightening, the point you are making is discussed between 6:30 and 8:00 minutes of this video
I recommend you watch the whole video at some point though
EngrishTeacher, it seems you have experienced this too.
and btw, drugs would help. This IS the base feeling that is eaxperienced when taking any psychedelics, or even MDMA.
BRILLIANT!! I happen to have a degree in neuroscience, and I appreciate your insight. Thank you.
Sometimes it's the other way round though. Lesser skilled players tend to be fully immerged into the game because it's so demanding and top players like Flash take a sip of water even after the game started.
That may be true, especially at the beginning of the game, before Flash has broken into that state of mind. Flash has practiced those build orders so many times that he doesn't even need to focus there. But trust me, by the time he has reached mid-late game and the build order has run out, Flash is so focused on the game he wouldn't even recognize himself.
Unfortunately, Flashs mechanics cant carry him thru the game like Inno can... Flash has shown us this robotic failure repeatedly, and it is why he is not at Blizzcon. Sure, Flash can macro like the best of us up until 10 minutes or whatever, but it goes back to my main argument... He has been unable to fulfill mindstate #2. He needs to transition into this or he will not succeed. Innovation and Life are good examples that have achieved this state of mind, and are able to execute it when it matters.
and btw, drugs would help. This IS the base feeling that is experienced when taking any psychedelics, or even MDMA.
I mindfulness in the top progamer mentality is essentially realtime meditation. Anyways, I think it is true to say that Koreans are able to drop reality and experience a meditative experience that will decrease focus on current neurotic thought processes in order to bring together both psychologically and neurotically automatic processes in the background. The biggest misconception of the human ego is that you actually know what is going on.
This about sums it up. Although I would add that it is not the fact that they are Korean that they can do this. I Do think Koreans train much harder than the rest of the world. Korean society is fundamentally a competitive society, for example, in primary school their grades are listed from top to bottom with their names present for all to see. This filters into many aspects of their society from finding jobs to competitive gaming. They also have advantages in that they have been serious about starcraft much longer than the rest of the world. and they have the experienced coaches. Their work ethic is also superior to much of the rest of the world. When they train they train very hard for extended periods of time like 10-14 hours a day. The more you train and the more you teach yourself to focus the more you can attain what you call "mental state 2", aka "self transcendence" aka, "mindful" aka "being one with starcraft" :D
On November 06 2015 04:47 LunarPenguin wrote: Hi Gyrus,
I think what you are talking about is mindfulness. When the top players play, they are literally unaware of anything else, but the game. When you reach a certain level of focus, the experience of 'self' falls away, and in this state of mind, there is no fear, worry, insecurities etc. Focusing on anything (not just starcraft) can get you into a state of mindfulness. This is the basis of meditation. I reckon the top players reach this level of focus more times than less skilled players.
Everyone experiences mindfulness sometimes. It happens when you focus so hard on something that everything else, even the 'self' falls away, and you are completely on autodrive. Mindfulness is the same as completely being in the present moment.
"...one where the player constantly sheds a euphoria of beauty for how the game plays itself." This is a good description of that very feeling.
If you are interested I would suggest you look up 'Sam Harris on Mindfulness', a neuroscientist who has explored this idea in great depth. This video is very enlightening, the point you are making is discussed between 6:30 and 8:00 minutes of this video
I recommend you watch the whole video at some point though
EngrishTeacher, it seems you have experienced this too.
and btw, drugs would help. This IS the base feeling that is eaxperienced when taking any psychedelics, or even MDMA.
BRILLIANT!! I happen to have a degree in neuroscience, and I appreciate your insight. Thank you.
Sometimes it's the other way round though. Lesser skilled players tend to be fully immerged into the game because it's so demanding and top players like Flash take a sip of water even after the game started.
That may be true, especially at the beginning of the game, before Flash has broken into that state of mind. Flash has practiced those build orders so many times that he doesn't even need to focus there. But trust me, by the time he has reached mid-late game and the build order has run out, Flash is so focused on the game he wouldn't even recognize himself.
Unfortunately, Flashs mechanics cant carry him thru the game like Inno can... Flash has shown us this robotic failure repeatedly, and it is why he is not at Blizzcon. Sure, Flash can macro like the best of us up until 10 minutes or whatever, but it goes back to my main argument... He has been unable to fulfill mindstate #2. He needs to transition into this or he will not succeed. Innovation and Life are good examples that have achieved this state of mind, and are able to execute it when it matters.
I agree, I was just using Flash as an example for any player. Innovation and Life especially. But Polt, Maru and many others aswell..
and btw, drugs would help. This IS the base feeling that is experienced when taking any psychedelics, or even MDMA.
I mindfulness in the top progamer mentality is essentially realtime meditation. Anyways, I think it is true to say that Koreans are able to drop reality and experience a meditative experience that will decrease focus on current neurotic thought processes in order to bring together both psychologically and neurotically automatic processes in the background. The biggest misconception of the human ego is that you actually know what is going on.
This about sums it up. Although I would add that it is not the fact that they are Korean that they can do this. I Do think Koreans train much harder than the rest of the world. Korean society is fundamentally a competitive society, for example, in primary school their grades are listed from top to bottom with their names present for all to see. This filters into many aspects of their society from finding jobs to competitive gaming. They also have advantages in that they have been serious about starcraft much longer than the rest of the world. and they have the experienced coaches. Their work ethic is also superior to much of the rest of the world. When they train they train very hard for extended periods of time like 10-14 hours a day.
Without creating a shitstorm of ethics genetics etc... My overarching argument was that foreigners can do just as well as Koreans. However, Koreans are likely to 1) have better genetics 2) have better training 3) have better diet 4) have better attitude. That aside... before I start a shitstorm.... the point is is that regardless of 1,2,3,4 any human being is capable of besting a Korean; they are just lacking in one or more of the areas 1,2,3,4, obviously.
On November 06 2015 04:47 LunarPenguin wrote: Hi Gyrus,
I think what you are talking about is mindfulness. When the top players play, they are literally unaware of anything else, but the game. When you reach a certain level of focus, the experience of 'self' falls away, and in this state of mind, there is no fear, worry, insecurities etc. Focusing on anything (not just starcraft) can get you into a state of mindfulness. This is the basis of meditation. I reckon the top players reach this level of focus more times than less skilled players.
Everyone experiences mindfulness sometimes. It happens when you focus so hard on something that everything else, even the 'self' falls away, and you are completely on autodrive. Mindfulness is the same as completely being in the present moment.
"...one where the player constantly sheds a euphoria of beauty for how the game plays itself." This is a good description of that very feeling.
If you are interested I would suggest you look up 'Sam Harris on Mindfulness', a neuroscientist who has explored this idea in great depth. This video is very enlightening, the point you are making is discussed between 6:30 and 8:00 minutes of this video
I recommend you watch the whole video at some point though
EngrishTeacher, it seems you have experienced this too.
and btw, drugs would help. This IS the base feeling that is eaxperienced when taking any psychedelics, or even MDMA.
BRILLIANT!! I happen to have a degree in neuroscience, and I appreciate your insight. Thank you.
Sometimes it's the other way round though. Lesser skilled players tend to be fully immerged into the game because it's so demanding and top players like Flash take a sip of water even after the game started.
That may be true, especially at the beginning of the game, before Flash has broken into that state of mind. Flash has practiced those build orders so many times that he doesn't even need to focus there. But trust me, by the time he has reached mid-late game and the build order has run out, Flash is so focused on the game he wouldn't even recognize himself.
Unfortunately, Flashs mechanics cant carry him thru the game like Inno can... Flash has shown us this robotic failure repeatedly, and it is why he is not at Blizzcon. Sure, Flash can macro like the best of us up until 10 minutes or whatever, but it goes back to my main argument... He has been unable to fulfill mindstate #2. He needs to transition into this or he will not succeed. Innovation and Life are good examples that have achieved this state of mind, and are able to execute it when it matters.
I agree, I was just using Flash as an example for any player. Innovation and Life especially. But Polt, Maru and many others aswell..
Polt is a great example of the point I am trying to make. He does not live in Korea; he is simply Korean. He does not live under the rigor of a Kespa teamhouse, its practices, indoctrinations, or anything. Polt is simply Polt. He has his secret practice partners like any other progamer, but that does not mean that his Korean descent gives him an advantage, necessarily, based upon the reasons such as 1) having a team in Korean 2) Having a coach 3) living in Korea. Polt has never had any of these. In fact, his environment is no different than anyone elses in Murrica or Europe, except that he may have a few Korean friends he can play with crossserver. Other than that, his practice is probably worse than Lilbows. Yes I went there. And there is no excuse to not be as good as Polt, unless you are not Polt.
and btw, drugs would help. This IS the base feeling that is experienced when taking any psychedelics, or even MDMA.
I mindfulness in the top progamer mentality is essentially realtime meditation. Anyways, I think it is true to say that Koreans are able to drop reality and experience a meditative experience that will decrease focus on current neurotic thought processes in order to bring together both psychologically and neurotically automatic processes in the background. The biggest misconception of the human ego is that you actually know what is going on.
This about sums it up. Although I would add that it is not the fact that they are Korean that they can do this. I Do think Koreans train much harder than the rest of the world. Korean society is fundamentally a competitive society, for example, in primary school their grades are listed from top to bottom with their names present for all to see. This filters into many aspects of their society from finding jobs to competitive gaming. They also have advantages in that they have been serious about starcraft much longer than the rest of the world. and they have the experienced coaches. Their work ethic is also superior to much of the rest of the world. When they train they train very hard for extended periods of time like 10-14 hours a day.
Without creating a shitstorm of ethics genetics etc... My overarching argument was that foreigners can do just as well as Koreans. However, Koreans are likely to 1) have better genetics 2) have better training 3) have better diet 4) have better attitude. That aside... before I start a shitstorm.... the point is is that regardless of 1,2,3,4 any human being is capable of besting a Korean; they are just lacking in one or more of the areas 1,2,3,4, obviously.
Hahaha don't worry, shitstorm evaded. Given all factors constant (1,2,3,4), all players could achieve Korean level. They would do this with more focus and an enhanced ability to loose yourself in the game, or access mental state 2 as you call it
Have you ever wondered what it's like to be as good as Innovation or Life, or any top Korean for that matter?
I would rather say that they are involved into organizations whose job is to make them top players with professional coaches... Also they went through all possible builds while practicing and they know what to do in every situation... I'm not sure if foreigners will ever catch them, even if some foreign country would have as good organizations and coaches as Koreans have...
I understand that. I am asking the question of what it REALLY feels like...maybe you should read my post again.
How they feel? I think nobody here that's not a GSL lvl korean can't describe that...
I've occasionally experienced a state of "flow" in games (occasionally, mind you), though I'm really not that good.
It's plausible that top pros experience this more frequently, at the very least because they play more. It might also be the case that they too only experience it rarely, but have better skills and game knowledge than the rest of us so they're a lot better on their off days too.
I think a major thing to consider is that playing Starcraft is more accepted in Korea. These pro players don't encounter as much, if any, resistance from their families and peers. Starcraft has been around in Korea for over a decade and it's recognized as a sport, people make money of it, become famous, they have pro teams with houses you can live in and train at, most of the kids at their school probably play SC, etc. This is far less common in say America, a kids parents would likely shame him/her for spending so much time playing and tell them that they will never be successful or happy wasting his/her life on what is just a video game to them.
and btw, drugs would help. This IS the base feeling that is experienced when taking any psychedelics, or even MDMA.
I mindfulness in the top progamer mentality is essentially realtime meditation. Anyways, I think it is true to say that Koreans are able to drop reality and experience a meditative experience that will decrease focus on current neurotic thought processes in order to bring together both psychologically and neurotically automatic processes in the background. The biggest misconception of the human ego is that you actually know what is going on.
This about sums it up. Although I would add that it is not the fact that they are Korean that they can do this. I Do think Koreans train much harder than the rest of the world. Korean society is fundamentally a competitive society, for example, in primary school their grades are listed from top to bottom with their names present for all to see. This filters into many aspects of their society from finding jobs to competitive gaming. They also have advantages in that they have been serious about starcraft much longer than the rest of the world. and they have the experienced coaches. Their work ethic is also superior to much of the rest of the world. When they train they train very hard for extended periods of time like 10-14 hours a day.
Without creating a shitstorm of ethics genetics etc... My overarching argument was that foreigners can do just as well as Koreans. However, Koreans are likely to 1) have better genetics 2) have better training 3) have better diet 4) have better attitude. That aside... before I start a shitstorm.... the point is is that regardless of 1,2,3,4 any human being is capable of besting a Korean; they are just lacking in one or more of the areas 1,2,3,4, obviously.
Hahaha don't worry, shitstorm evaded. Given all factors constant (1,2,3,4), all players could achieve Korean level. They would do this with more focus and an enhanced ability to loose yourself in the game, or access mental state 2 as you call it
I can almost guarantee that within a single trip of MDMA I could win like 20 to 30 games in a row. I know this because even on my most basic shitty outlook I lose to people to which I should not. I have done this for years. I have gone online and won 10 to 20 games in a row with EASE simply by feeling better. Now imagine if this was magnified by training.... And no, I have not done MDMA in about 10 years, but I can say for sure that is the the magical potion for human confidence and performance. It unleashes the self.
and btw, drugs would help. This IS the base feeling that is experienced when taking any psychedelics, or even MDMA.
I mindfulness in the top progamer mentality is essentially realtime meditation. Anyways, I think it is true to say that Koreans are able to drop reality and experience a meditative experience that will decrease focus on current neurotic thought processes in order to bring together both psychologically and neurotically automatic processes in the background. The biggest misconception of the human ego is that you actually know what is going on.
This about sums it up. Although I would add that it is not the fact that they are Korean that they can do this. I Do think Koreans train much harder than the rest of the world. Korean society is fundamentally a competitive society, for example, in primary school their grades are listed from top to bottom with their names present for all to see. This filters into many aspects of their society from finding jobs to competitive gaming. They also have advantages in that they have been serious about starcraft much longer than the rest of the world. and they have the experienced coaches. Their work ethic is also superior to much of the rest of the world. When they train they train very hard for extended periods of time like 10-14 hours a day.
Without creating a shitstorm of ethics genetics etc... My overarching argument was that foreigners can do just as well as Koreans. However, Koreans are likely to 1) have better genetics 2) have better training 3) have better diet 4) have better attitude. That aside... before I start a shitstorm.... the point is is that regardless of 1,2,3,4 any human being is capable of besting a Korean; they are just lacking in one or more of the areas 1,2,3,4, obviously.
Hahaha don't worry, shitstorm evaded. Given all factors constant (1,2,3,4), all players could achieve Korean level. They would do this with more focus and an enhanced ability to loose yourself in the game, or access mental state 2 as you call it
I can almost guarantee that within a single trip of MDMA I could win like 20 to 30 games in a row. I know this because even on my most basic shitty outlook I lose to people to which I should not. I have done this for years. I have gone online and won 10 to 20 games in a row with EASE simply by feeling better. Now imagine if this was magnified by training.... And no, I have not done MDMA in about 10 years, but I can say for sure that is the the magical potion for human confidence and performance. It unleashes the self.
haha definitely! I take concerta (which is like ADHD medication). Concerta is chemically very similar to MDMA, and has very similar effects. Concerta requires a doctors script here in South Africa. But playing starcraft on concerta, is a really amazing experience as it helps you to focus. (Disclaimer: I am not advocating drug use, but MDMA is amazing!) I wouldn't be surprised if top players also take concerta or ritalin before these tournaments. It defininitely helps with reaching that desired level of focus.
Interesting. Maintaining flow (or the second mind state) is something I have personally experienced during pure, focused practice, and even if I don't have it during the gameplay, the way I process the game betters with this focused thinking. Like a practice room in a fighting game, hours before a presentation or whatever. When I play to relieve the tension of school or whatever, I find myself to be more stressed and angry during play. Last hitting in DotA2 or macro in StarCraft becomes way worse as well.
On November 06 2015 06:33 Wintex wrote: Interesting. Maintaining flow (or the second mind state) is something I have personally experienced during pure, focused practice, and even if I don't have it during the gameplay, the way I process the game betters with this focused thinking. Like a practice room in a fighting game, hours before a presentation or whatever. When I play to relieve the tension of school or whatever, I find myself to be more stressed and angry during play. Last hitting in DotA2 or macro in StarCraft becomes way worse as well.
Yeah, I think the psychological approach to bettering oneself in starcraft is underlooked. TLO, if you are out there, i know you have something to say about this. gg
one where the player constantly sheds a euphoria of beauty for how the game plays itself
Can you define this better? Maybe I need to experiment with drugs before I understand what you mean by that.
It is a sort of zen flow that happens where you play at a higher level than you are, a sort of spike of potential. I cannot really define it other than in a philosophical sense. Perhaps, drugs would help.
Well, pass whatever you're smoking because we're about to have us a party.
Lol, you are the one in the netherlands. No smokin goin on here
one where the player constantly sheds a euphoria of beauty for how the game plays itself
Can you define this better? Maybe I need to experiment with drugs before I understand what you mean by that.
It is a sort of zen flow that happens where you play at a higher level than you are, a sort of spike of potential. I cannot really define it other than in a philosophical sense. Perhaps, drugs would help.
Well, pass whatever you're smoking because we're about to have us a party.
Lol, you are the one in the netherlands. No smokin goin on here
ha ha that thread is taking a strange turn
here in the US they stone us to death for smoking flowers. Not sure why.
I would be very disappointed if some pro players did not take drugs before important matches, seeing as how there is absolutely no regulation on this in e-sports (yet). It's simply too good not to use while they still can. stuff like this is what can give you the edge, especially over korean pros, but you must be very good at the game and mentally strong as well to be able to maintain focus. I think.
Drugs like MDMA or amphetamine are certainly good for short term focus "explosions", and in turn allow players to get "in the flow" easier.
In conclusion: drugs are bad, unless they help you win :D
I think's pretty ignorant to say that top Koreans are unafraid of facing tough opponents when they themselves frequently admit that the opposite is true.
Take sOs for example. Everyone hates playing him because they're afraid he'll hit them with something that they're not prepared for. Or Liquid HerO, the guy whose fatal flaw is that he's shit under pressure.
I'm tired of people with posts like these that somehow make Koreans into fucking zen masters. They just practice harder and with better practice partners than everyone else. That's all.
If Koreans can become immune to fear against starcraft opponents, can they do the same for spiders? If so, someone make a paint drawing depicting this.
EPT
