Have you ever wondered what it's like to be as good as Innovation or Life, or any top Korean for that matter?
Having played somewhere over 20,000 games, I have had moments of invincibility while playing, and I would like to address my view on the psychology of the best players in the world based upon those brief feelings of invincibility. Innovation comes to mind, then Life.
In my mind there are two predominant broad psychological states while playing starcraft: one where the player focuses on micro and macro and tries to keep up with the game, and one where the player constantly sheds a euphoria of beauty for how the game plays itself, and micro and macro naturally fall into order. The first attitude takes more mental burden on the user, whereas the latter allows to user to follow the workings of the game, and by doing so become more in tune with the flow of the game. Take the facial expressions of people like Innovation and Life for example during an intense tournament game. Do they look like they are worried about their micro and macro; about the outcome of the game; about the seriousness of the situation? No, they are probably less worried than the average kid queuing up for his diamond ladder game. Was Life scared of lilbow even though he was rank 1 GM on EU? No. Because top players like Life take the latter psychological stance, and let the game flow for them, rather then trying to control the flow. Now, you might be thinking, well you have to master state #1 in order to allow state #2 to work. True, and this is my point exactly. Nearly all of us, even progamers, I would argue, fall into state #1 most of the time. What sets top Koreans apart from the rest of is that they are unable to feel fear of other players, even other top Koreans. Because they are able to let the game play itself; they are just in the backseat. Imagine if you were stuck in mindstate #1 playing vs a top GM or a top Korean, you would make more mistakes because you would be unable to let the game roboticize itself; instead you would be in an endless battle with yourself trying to compensate for the mistakes you know that you are constantly making. It all boils down to living up to your potential. And I think that Koreans have falsely let us believe that we are less capable, when in fact, we are just too busy trundling along in state #1.
one where the player constantly sheds a euphoria of beauty for how the game plays itself
Can you define this better? Maybe I need to experiment with drugs before I understand what you mean by that.
Edit: I guess you mean that you can experience momentum, in a game of SC2 mistakes tend to lead to more mistakes. For example a supply block can cause you to miss your timing, which messes up your state of mind which leads to micro mistakes or whatever which snowballs into more mistakes. The opposite can be true when things are going right for once, that's where the euphoria comes in I guess.
I don't agree with there being 2 different states of mind, it's all the same thing. (Top) Koreans are just better practiced (so more experienced) and playing at a higher level than foreigners. Each individual experiences games that go well (could be due to a good minset) and games that don't go well (could be experiencing tilt).
Because they are able to let the game play itself; they are just in the backseat.
and let the game flow for them, rather then trying to control the flow
This is because they're better, they just do their thing and they feel comfort knowing that they should beat their opponent. I think you're reading wayy too much into this and make too many assumptions (as you don't know how they feel) to be honest.
one where the player constantly sheds a euphoria of beauty for how the game plays itself
Can you define this better? Maybe I need to experiment with drugs before I understand what you mean by that.
It is a sort of zen flow that happens where you play at a higher level than you are, a sort of spike of potential. I cannot really define it other than in a philosophical sense. Perhaps, drugs would help.
one where the player constantly sheds a euphoria of beauty for how the game plays itself
Can you define this better? Maybe I need to experiment with drugs before I understand what you mean by that.
It is a sort of zen flow that happens where you play at a higher level than you are, a sort of spike of potential. I cannot really define it other than in a philosophical sense. Perhaps, drugs would help.
Well, pass whatever you're smoking because we're about to have us a party.
one where the player constantly sheds a euphoria of beauty for how the game plays itself
Can you define this better? Maybe I need to experiment with drugs before I understand what you mean by that.
It is a sort of zen flow that happens where you play at a higher level than you are, a sort of spike of potential. I cannot really define it other than in a philosophical sense. Perhaps, drugs would help.
Well, pass whatever you're smoking because we're about to have us a party.
Lol, you are the one in the netherlands. No smokin goin on here
On November 06 2015 03:27 gyrus wrote: In my mind there are two predominant broad psychological states while playing starcraft: one where the player focuses on micro and macro and tries to keep up with the game, and one where the player constantly sheds a euphoria of beauty for how the game plays itself, and micro and macro naturally fall into order.
I don't necessarily agree with just the 2 predominant states, but I know exactly what you're talking about with the latter one.
In those rare 1/1000 games, I macro (almost) flawlessly until lategame, set up gorgeous flanks with 3 control groups and drop like a madman while saving most of units.
For a lack of a better phrase, I felt "one with the game". I didn't have to constantly remind myself to look at the minimap or hit my macro cycles, I just did those things naturally and felt like I was actually a commander in the game.
Have you ever wondered what it's like to be as good as Innovation or Life, or any top Korean for that matter?
I would rather say that they are involved into organizations whose job is to make them top players with professional coaches... Also they went through all possible builds while practicing and they know what to do in every situation... I'm not sure if foreigners will ever catch them, even if some foreign country would have as good organizations and coaches as Koreans have...
I think what you are talking about is mindfulness. When the top players play, they are literally unaware of anything else, but the game. When you reach a certain level of focus, the experience of 'self' falls away, and in this state of mind, there is no fear, worry, insecurities etc. Focusing on anything (not just starcraft) can get you into a state of mindfulness. This is the basis of meditation. I reckon the top players reach this level of focus more times than less skilled players.
Everyone experiences mindfulness sometimes. It happens when you focus so hard on something that everything else, even the 'self' falls away, and you are completely on autodrive. Mindfulness is the same as completely being in the present moment.
"...one where the player constantly sheds a euphoria of beauty for how the game plays itself." This is a good description of that very feeling.
If you are interested I would suggest you look up 'Sam Harris on Mindfulness', a neuroscientist who has explored this idea in great depth. This video is very enlightening, the point you are making is discussed between 6:30 and 8:00 minutes of this video
I recommend you watch the whole video at some point though
EngrishTeacher, it seems you have experienced this too.
and btw, drugs would help. This IS the base feeling that is experienced when taking any psychedelics, or even MDMA.
Have you ever wondered what it's like to be as good as Innovation or Life, or any top Korean for that matter?
I would rather say that they are involved into organizations whose job is to make them top players with professional coaches... Also they went through all possible builds while practicing and they know what to do in every situation... I'm not sure if foreigners will ever catch them, even if some foreign country would have as good organizations and coaches as Koreans have...
I understand that. I am asking the question of what it REALLY feels like...maybe you should read my post again.
On November 06 2015 04:47 LunarPenguin wrote: Hi Gyrus,
I think what you are talking about is mindfulness. When the top players play, they are literally unaware of anything else, but the game. When you reach a certain level of focus, the experience of 'self' falls away, and in this state of mind, there is no fear, worry, insecurities etc. Focusing on anything (not just starcraft) can get you into a state of mindfulness. This is the basis of meditation. I reckon the top players reach this level of focus more times than less skilled players.
Everyone experiences mindfulness sometimes. It happens when you focus so hard on something that everything else, even the 'self' falls away, and you are completely on autodrive. Mindfulness is the same as completely being in the present moment.
"...one where the player constantly sheds a euphoria of beauty for how the game plays itself." This is a good description of that very feeling.
If you are interested I would suggest you look up 'Sam Harris on Mindfulness', a neuroscientist who has explored this idea in great depth. This video is very enlightening, the point you are making is discussed between 6:30 and 8:00 minutes of this video
I recommend you watch the whole video at some point though
On November 06 2015 04:47 LunarPenguin wrote: Hi Gyrus,
I think what you are talking about is mindfulness. When the top players play, they are literally unaware of anything else, but the game. When you reach a certain level of focus, the experience of 'self' falls away, and in this state of mind, there is no fear, worry, insecurities etc. Focusing on anything (not just starcraft) can get you into a state of mindfulness. This is the basis of meditation. I reckon the top players reach this level of focus more times than less skilled players.
Everyone experiences mindfulness sometimes. It happens when you focus so hard on something that everything else, even the 'self' falls away, and you are completely on autodrive. Mindfulness is the same as completely being in the present moment.
"...one where the player constantly sheds a euphoria of beauty for how the game plays itself." This is a good description of that very feeling.
If you are interested I would suggest you look up 'Sam Harris on Mindfulness', a neuroscientist who has explored this idea in great depth. This video is very enlightening, the point you are making is discussed between 6:30 and 8:00 minutes of this video
I recommend you watch the whole video at some point though
EngrishTeacher, it seems you have experienced this too.
and btw, drugs would help. This IS the base feeling that is experienced when taking any psychedelics, or even MDMA.
I am listening to the video you sent me and he is discussing the surreal nature of experiencing the euphoria of SUCCEEDING through an activity, aka sports, athletics, esports. This is exactly what I am getting at, and this is why we should discuss esports among the same realm of real sports, but unfortunately people are too caught up in the physical aspect rather than the mental aspect. Within both generic physical sports and esports, which are not simply mental, the common theology, if you will, is that physical exertion produces success and produces the mental state required for success. Not true. We are now discovering through esports that success through sport is overlapped with physical and mental capabilites, and esports is elucidating this. Ironically, the most physical sports tend to start with the idea of physical performance leads to mental performance, and then it all comes together to produce a beautiful athlete. Now, we are realizing that mental performance can come first, through the medium of esports, and physical training can enhance it, no differently. Because we have competition that starts with the mind rather than the body, we must redefine the word sport to include electronic gaming.
On November 06 2015 04:47 LunarPenguin wrote: Hi Gyrus,
I think what you are talking about is mindfulness. When the top players play, they are literally unaware of anything else, but the game. When you reach a certain level of focus, the experience of 'self' falls away, and in this state of mind, there is no fear, worry, insecurities etc. Focusing on anything (not just starcraft) can get you into a state of mindfulness. This is the basis of meditation. I reckon the top players reach this level of focus more times than less skilled players.
Everyone experiences mindfulness sometimes. It happens when you focus so hard on something that everything else, even the 'self' falls away, and you are completely on autodrive. Mindfulness is the same as completely being in the present moment.
"...one where the player constantly sheds a euphoria of beauty for how the game plays itself." This is a good description of that very feeling.
If you are interested I would suggest you look up 'Sam Harris on Mindfulness', a neuroscientist who has explored this idea in great depth. This video is very enlightening, the point you are making is discussed between 6:30 and 8:00 minutes of this video
I recommend you watch the whole video at some point though
EngrishTeacher, it seems you have experienced this too.
and btw, drugs would help. This IS the base feeling that is eaxperienced when taking any psychedelics, or even MDMA.
BRILLIANT!! I happen to have a degree in neuroscience, and I appreciate your insight. Thank you.
Sometimes it's the other way round though. Lesser skilled players tend to be fully immerged into the game because it's so demanding and top players like Flash take a sip of water even after the game started.
On November 06 2015 04:47 LunarPenguin wrote: Hi Gyrus,
I think what you are talking about is mindfulness. When the top players play, they are literally unaware of anything else, but the game. When you reach a certain level of focus, the experience of 'self' falls away, and in this state of mind, there is no fear, worry, insecurities etc. Focusing on anything (not just starcraft) can get you into a state of mindfulness. This is the basis of meditation. I reckon the top players reach this level of focus more times than less skilled players.
Everyone experiences mindfulness sometimes. It happens when you focus so hard on something that everything else, even the 'self' falls away, and you are completely on autodrive. Mindfulness is the same as completely being in the present moment.
"...one where the player constantly sheds a euphoria of beauty for how the game plays itself." This is a good description of that very feeling.
If you are interested I would suggest you look up 'Sam Harris on Mindfulness', a neuroscientist who has explored this idea in great depth. This video is very enlightening, the point you are making is discussed between 6:30 and 8:00 minutes of this video
I recommend you watch the whole video at some point though
EngrishTeacher, it seems you have experienced this too.
and btw, drugs would help. This IS the base feeling that is experienced when taking any psychedelics, or even MDMA.
I am listening to the video you sent me and he is discussing the surreal nature of experiencing the euphoria of SUCCEEDING through an activity, aka sports, athletics, esports. This is exactly what I am getting at, and this is why we should discuss esports among the same realm of real sports, but unfortunately people are too caught up in the physical aspect rather than the mental aspect. Within both generic physical sports and esports, which are not simply mental, the common theology, if you will, is that physical exertion produces success and produces the mental state required for success. Not true. We are now discovering through esports that success through sport is overlapped with physical and mental capabilites, and esports is elucidating this. Ironically, the most physical sports tend to start with the idea of physical performance leads to mental performance, and then it all comes together to produce a beautiful athlete. Now, we are realizing that mental performance can come first, through the medium of esports, and physical training can enhance it, no differently. Because we have competition that starts with the mind rather than the body, we must redefine the word sport to include electronic gaming.
Yeah, I have always believed eSports should still be considered a sport like any other but, Wow. I honestly never thought of it that way and yet I totally agree with you. I guess the distinction comes down to the fact that in athletics, physical training determines the limits of performance, and enhancing the mental training gets you closer to those limits. Whereas in eSports (especially starcraft) you would consider the mental training as defining your limits, and the physical training (like your APM) as determining how close you get to reach those limits. At the end of the day, both share the fact that mind and body are necessary, and both are sports. Especially considering that one can experience this "self transcendence" in either sports or eSports.
and btw, drugs would help. This IS the base feeling that is experienced when taking any psychedelics, or even MDMA.
I can only laugh at people who have not experienced mushrooms or cocaine or whatever it is. Just dont do meth, unless its mdma. Anyway.... Yes drugs to help. Moreover..... mindfulness in the top progamer mentality is essentially realtime meditation. My keyboard is broken so I will not insert symbols. Anyways, I think it is true to say that Koreans are able to drop reality and experience a meditative experience that will decrease focus on current neurotic thought processes in order to bring together both psychologically and neurotically automatic processes in the background. The biggest misconception of the human ego is that you actually know what is going on.
On November 06 2015 04:47 LunarPenguin wrote: Hi Gyrus,
I think what you are talking about is mindfulness. When the top players play, they are literally unaware of anything else, but the game. When you reach a certain level of focus, the experience of 'self' falls away, and in this state of mind, there is no fear, worry, insecurities etc. Focusing on anything (not just starcraft) can get you into a state of mindfulness. This is the basis of meditation. I reckon the top players reach this level of focus more times than less skilled players.
Everyone experiences mindfulness sometimes. It happens when you focus so hard on something that everything else, even the 'self' falls away, and you are completely on autodrive. Mindfulness is the same as completely being in the present moment.
"...one where the player constantly sheds a euphoria of beauty for how the game plays itself." This is a good description of that very feeling.
If you are interested I would suggest you look up 'Sam Harris on Mindfulness', a neuroscientist who has explored this idea in great depth. This video is very enlightening, the point you are making is discussed between 6:30 and 8:00 minutes of this video
I recommend you watch the whole video at some point though
EngrishTeacher, it seems you have experienced this too.
and btw, drugs would help. This IS the base feeling that is eaxperienced when taking any psychedelics, or even MDMA.
BRILLIANT!! I happen to have a degree in neuroscience, and I appreciate your insight. Thank you.
Sometimes it's the other way round though. Lesser skilled players tend to be fully immerged into the game because it's so demanding and top players like Flash take a sip of water even after the game started.
That may be true, especially at the beginning of the game, before Flash has broken into that state of mind. Flash has practiced those build orders so many times that he doesn't even need to focus there. But trust me, by the time he has reached mid-late game and the build order has run out, Flash is so focused on the game he wouldn't even recognize himself.
On November 06 2015 04:47 LunarPenguin wrote: Hi Gyrus,
I think what you are talking about is mindfulness. When the top players play, they are literally unaware of anything else, but the game. When you reach a certain level of focus, the experience of 'self' falls away, and in this state of mind, there is no fear, worry, insecurities etc. Focusing on anything (not just starcraft) can get you into a state of mindfulness. This is the basis of meditation. I reckon the top players reach this level of focus more times than less skilled players.
Everyone experiences mindfulness sometimes. It happens when you focus so hard on something that everything else, even the 'self' falls away, and you are completely on autodrive. Mindfulness is the same as completely being in the present moment.
"...one where the player constantly sheds a euphoria of beauty for how the game plays itself." This is a good description of that very feeling.
If you are interested I would suggest you look up 'Sam Harris on Mindfulness', a neuroscientist who has explored this idea in great depth. This video is very enlightening, the point you are making is discussed between 6:30 and 8:00 minutes of this video
I recommend you watch the whole video at some point though
EngrishTeacher, it seems you have experienced this too.
and btw, drugs would help. This IS the base feeling that is experienced when taking any psychedelics, or even MDMA.
I am listening to the video you sent me and he is discussing the surreal nature of experiencing the euphoria of SUCCEEDING through an activity, aka sports, athletics, esports. This is exactly what I am getting at, and this is why we should discuss esports among the same realm of real sports, but unfortunately people are too caught up in the physical aspect rather than the mental aspect. Within both generic physical sports and esports, which are not simply mental, the common theology, if you will, is that physical exertion produces success and produces the mental state required for success. Not true. We are now discovering through esports that success through sport is overlapped with physical and mental capabilites, and esports is elucidating this. Ironically, the most physical sports tend to start with the idea of physical performance leads to mental performance, and then it all comes together to produce a beautiful athlete. Now, we are realizing that mental performance can come first, through the medium of esports, and physical training can enhance it, no differently. Because we have competition that starts with the mind rather than the body, we must redefine the word sport to include electronic gaming.
Yeah, I have always believed eSports should still be considered a sport like any other but, Wow. I honestly never thought of it that way and yet I totally agree with you. I guess the distinction comes down to the fact that in athletics, physical training determines the limits of performance, and enhancing the mental training gets you closer to those limits. Whereas in eSports (especially starcraft) you would consider the mental training as defining your limits, and the physical training (like your APM) as determining how close you get to reach those limits. At the end of the day, both share the fact that mind and body are necessary, and both are sports. Especially considering that one can experience this "self transcendence" in either sports or eSports.
EPT
