• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 03:31
CEST 09:31
KST 16:31
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
Code S Season 1 - RO12 Group A: Rogue, Percival, Solar, Zoun9[ASL21] Ro8 Preview Pt1: Inheritors16[ASL21] Ro16 Preview Pt2: All Star10Team Liquid Map Contest #22 - The Finalists20[ASL21] Ro16 Preview Pt1: Fresh Flow9
Community News
2026 GSL Season 1 Qualifiers25Maestros of the Game 2 announced92026 GSL Tour plans announced15Weekly Cups (April 6-12): herO doubles, "Villains" prevail1MaNa leaves Team Liquid25
StarCraft 2
General
Code S Season 1 - RO12 Group A: Rogue, Percival, Solar, Zoun Team Liquid Map Contest #22 - The Finalists Blizzard Classic Cup @ BlizzCon 2026 - $100k prize pool MaNa leaves Team Liquid Maestros of the Game 2 announced
Tourneys
RSL Revival: Season 5 - Qualifiers and Main Event SEL Masters #6 - Solar vs Classic (SC: Evo) $5,000 WardiTV TLMC tournament - Presented by Monster Energy GSL Code S Season 1 (2026) FSL Season 10 Individual Championship
Strategy
Custom Maps
[D]RTS in all its shapes and glory <3 [A] Nemrods 1/4 players [M] (2) Frigid Storage
External Content
The PondCast: SC2 News & Results Mutation # 523 Firewall Mutation # 522 Flip My Base Mutation # 521 Memorable Boss
Brood War
General
ASL21 General Discussion BW General Discussion JaeDong's ASL S21 Ro16 Post-Review Leta's ASL S21 Ro.16 review [ASL21] Ro8 Preview Pt1: Inheritors
Tourneys
[ASL21] Ro8 Day 2 [ASL21] Ro8 Day 1 [BSL22] RO16 Group Stage - 02 - 10 May Korean KCM Race Survival 2026 Season 2
Strategy
Fighting Spirit mining rates Simple Questions, Simple Answers What's the deal with APM & what's its true value Any training maps people recommend?
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Daigo vs Menard Best of 10 Nintendo Switch Thread Dawn of War IV Diablo IV
Dota 2
The Story of Wings Gaming
League of Legends
G2 just beat GenG in First stand
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
Vanilla Mini Mafia Mafia Game Mode Feedback/Ideas TL Mafia Community Thread Five o'clock TL Mafia
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread European Politico-economics QA Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread 3D technology/software discussion Canadian Politics Mega-thread
Fan Clubs
The IdrA Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
[Manga] One Piece Anime Discussion Thread [Req][Books] Good Fantasy/SciFi books Movie Discussion!
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion McBoner: A hockey love story
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
streaming software Strange computer issues (software) [G] How to Block Livestream Ads
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Sexual Health Of Gamers
TrAiDoS
lurker extra damage testi…
StaticNine
Broowar part 2
qwaykee
Funny Nicknames
LUCKY_NOOB
Iranian anarchists: organize…
XenOsky
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 2098 users

My ideas to compensate the swarmhost nerf

Forum Index > Closed
Post a Reply
Skyblueone
Profile Joined June 2012
Belgium155 Posts
April 14 2015 22:42 GMT
#1
Intro

First of all I want to precise that I'm a bio terran player so sorry in advance if the following suggestions seems a little biased.

When I saw all the complains about the sh nerf I was just telling myself that it was to early for zergs to whine and that zerg would figure something out on their own. That's exactly what some people were saying during the era of gglords and imbators and it was exactly what some other people where saying during the msc completely broken.

The fact is that if we don't try to anticipate the meta (to some extends) we are just going to have some useless, none fun game to watch for months and I do not want that.

Why the compensations?

Before swarmhost (end of wol), people dealt with mech in different way. The most common mech build was the mvp 3 cc/hellion/banshee and double upgrade (there was a similar bio build that made both build more powerful). Zergs were able to analyse the problem and found different ways to deal with it, passive with a big composition switches or some early roaches(sometime with hydras) timings. Those games with the roaches doom drop where so funny to watch.

But a few balance changes occurred since then. The banshee cloak cost decrease, hellbat arrived, thor 250 mm canon, nerf of the fungal and infested terran , upgraded air/ground combined, mines arrived etc etc. Of course zergs got their own buffs but they where created to counter the bio.

My suggestions

The raven: I believe that this is one of the more interesting unit of the game... except...when the terran is massing them, then it become painfully stupid.

TvT is so fun to watch and play right know because of it, it is even really good in the other match up too. It can be a defensive unit (pdd, turret) a great harass unit (turret in mineral lines, bombing the workers whhile droppîng elsewhere etc) and a cool support unit because of the detection (creep, borrow, dts). Look at this move and tell me that this is not why you are watching sc;

.

The problem is that terran are not making it in those match-up because of the big techlab restriction.

This is how, I think, this unit could be fix, make it so terran player can only make one at a time (like the msc for protoss). That would mean a pretty big nerf. This is why we can at the same time buff the unit itself, for example, make it easier to build or decrease its cost. The best idea imo would be to build it from an OC if the starport is already build. We could see a raven every game and it would suppress the problem of mass ravens.

I know that a lot of people will counter this suggestion by saying that this is not warcraft (i never played it), but the idea is not to make the raven a terran hero. I believe that this change will increase the skillgap in the good way. Seeing pro player micro and multitask with it will be so cool.

The infestors: It used to be a useful spell caster with no auto attacks. Now they are quite boring, zergs make them when they are ahead or for the the money fungal when they are too far behind.

My idea is to buff neutral parasite. Seriously, I don't think this spell was used once since hots (even before that I believe). Make it possible to use it against any units, suppress the upgrade so we can use the spell directly, increase the range . If the unit is then to strong, a good way to balance it would be to nerf the infested units by removing the attack upgrades during the infestation or simply decrease the time of the infestation.

Overlords: I also think that overlord drops are underused lately. I think a good idea would be to create another upgrade (lair) to increase their armors. I missed the roach doom drop or seeing baneling being dropped on the top of death balls.
Isarios
Profile Joined March 2014
United States153 Posts
April 14 2015 23:00 GMT
#2
honestly, I just feel like fungal should be rebuffed slightly. not to WOL levels, but back from the pitiful level its at now. its so hard to use, i think you ahve to be confident in your ability to play excellently to use it. even pros only build a few just in case. and actually for the most part, those games that they've built infestors in they tend to lose.
Blahhh
Isarios
Profile Joined March 2014
United States153 Posts
April 14 2015 23:05 GMT
#3
Though, that does mean to something close to infestor broodlord nowadays with no swarm hosts...
Blahhh
Charoisaur
Profile Joined August 2014
Germany16062 Posts
April 14 2015 23:20 GMT
#4
The fact is that if we don't try to anticipate the meta (to some extends) we are just going to have some useless, none fun game to watch for months and I do not want that.

and if we do balance changes based on wrong anticipations we are also going to see useless, none fun game to watch for month.
you can't just buff one race because you think it is to weak without any statistics that support your claims.
If mech dominates gsl and proleague in the next few months then we can argue about making balance changes.
Many of the coolest moments in sc2 happen due to worker harassment
zelevin
Profile Joined January 2012
United States316 Posts
April 14 2015 23:21 GMT
#5
If only there was a public test server or something like that where blizzard could actively test changes of the game... Oh wait, that did exist, it was just never used.
"You're the idiot, idiot. That's why your fuckin' name is Idiot." - Artosis to CSG
Riquiz
Profile Joined June 2011
Netherlands402 Posts
April 14 2015 23:22 GMT
#6
It's not a nerf, it's a design decision and zerg will figure it out eventually.
Caster man does casting on yt/RiquizCasts
JCoto
Profile Joined October 2014
Spain574 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-04-14 23:26:12
April 14 2015 23:24 GMT
#7
On April 15 2015 08:00 Isarios wrote:
honestly, I just feel like fungal should be rebuffed slightly. not to WOL levels, but back from the pitiful level its at now. its so hard to use, i think you ahve to be confident in your ability to play excellently to use it. even pros only build a few just in case. and actually for the most part, those games that they've built infestors in they tend to lose.


Fungal growth needs their missile speed to be set to 15 again.

They nerfed it to 12 just in the end of HotS beta.


And Broodlords deserve the speed buff they have been needing for ages. All capital units move at 1.88 speed (slow speed standard) except it. That and move-shot micro (removal of damage point)
Skyblueone
Profile Joined June 2012
Belgium155 Posts
April 14 2015 23:28 GMT
#8
Ok but what to you think about the raven suggestion? They nerfed (or redesign if you prefer that term) sh because of "long boring games" but know mass terran air will replace it.
JCoto
Profile Joined October 2014
Spain574 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-04-14 23:32:01
April 14 2015 23:31 GMT
#9
On April 15 2015 08:28 Skyblueone wrote:
Ok but what to you think about the raven suggestion? They nerfed (or redesign if you prefer that term) sh because of "long boring games" but know mass terran air will replace it.


About the raven? Supply cost incresed to 3. Mass raven 50% weaker by default. (all air casters cost 3 supply, even BW science vessel)
Banshee supply cost set to 2.

Potential buffs to the raven would be to adjust PDD and seeker missile and buff Raven move speed.
JBright
Profile Joined September 2010
Vancouver14381 Posts
April 14 2015 23:33 GMT
#10
Please take balance suggestions to battle.net.
ModeratorThe good and the wise lead quiet lives. Neo's #1 Frenemy and nightmare.
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 2h
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft: Brood War
GuemChi 3425
Aegong 358
Zeus 268
Shine 60
910 53
soO 34
ajuk12(nOOB) 16
Noble 14
Backho 12
Bale 11
[ Show more ]
Sharp 11
Dota 2
NeuroSwarm409
League of Legends
JimRising 654
Counter-Strike
Stewie2K828
shoxiejesuss479
Other Games
summit1g7705
C9.Mang0470
WinterStarcraft362
Happy176
crisheroes117
RuFF_SC231
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick841
Dota 2
PGL Dota 2 - Main Stream87
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
[ Show 14 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• LUISG 6
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
League of Legends
• Rush1223
• Lourlo926
• Stunt536
Upcoming Events
GSL
2h
Cure vs TriGGeR
ByuN vs Bunny
KCM Race Survival
2h 30m
Big Gabe
4h 30m
WardiTV Qualifier
4h 30m
Replay Cast
16h 30m
Replay Cast
1d 1h
Escore
1d 2h
OSC
1d 5h
Replay Cast
1d 16h
Replay Cast
2 days
[ Show More ]
RSL Revival
2 days
Classic vs GgMaChine
Rogue vs Maru
WardiTV Invitational
2 days
IPSL
2 days
Ret vs Art_Of_Turtle
Radley vs TBD
BSL
2 days
Replay Cast
2 days
RSL Revival
3 days
herO vs TriGGeR
NightMare vs Solar
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
3 days
BSL
3 days
IPSL
3 days
eOnzErG vs TBD
G5 vs Nesh
Replay Cast
4 days
Wardi Open
4 days
Afreeca Starleague
4 days
Jaedong vs Light
Monday Night Weeklies
4 days
Replay Cast
4 days
Sparkling Tuna Cup
5 days
Afreeca Starleague
5 days
Snow vs Flash
WardiTV Invitational
5 days
GSL
6 days
Replay Cast
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Proleague 2026-04-28
WardiTV TLMC #16
Nations Cup 2026

Ongoing

BSL Season 22
ASL Season 21
CSL 2026 SPRING (S20)
IPSL Spring 2026
KCM Race Survival 2026 Season 2
StarCraft2 Community Team League 2026 Spring
2026 GSL S1
BLAST Rivals Spring 2026
IEM Rio 2026
PGL Bucharest 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 1
BLAST Open Spring 2026
ESL Pro League S23 Finals
ESL Pro League S23 Stage 1&2
PGL Cluj-Napoca 2026

Upcoming

Escore Tournament S2: W5
KK 2v2 League Season 1
Acropolis #4
BSL 22 Non-Korean Championship
CSLAN 4
Kung Fu Cup 2026 Grand Finals
HSC XXIX
uThermal 2v2 2026 Main Event
Maestros of the Game 2
2026 GSL S2
RSL Revival: Season 5
XSE Pro League 2026
IEM Cologne Major 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 2
CS Asia Championships 2026
IEM Atlanta 2026
Asian Champions League 2026
PGL Astana 2026
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.