• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EST 22:26
CET 04:26
KST 12:26
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
RSL Revival - 2025 Season Finals Preview8RSL Season 3 - Playoffs Preview0RSL Season 3 - RO16 Groups C & D Preview0RSL Season 3 - RO16 Groups A & B Preview2TL.net Map Contest #21: Winners12
Community News
ComeBackTV's documentary on Byun's Career !6Weekly Cups (Dec 8-14): MaxPax, Clem, Cure win4Weekly Cups (Dec 1-7): Clem doubles, Solar gets over the hump1Weekly Cups (Nov 24-30): MaxPax, Clem, herO win2BGE Stara Zagora 2026 announced15
StarCraft 2
General
ComeBackTV's documentary on Byun's Career ! When will we find out if there are more tournament Weekly Cups (Dec 8-14): MaxPax, Clem, Cure win RSL Revival - 2025 Season Finals Preview Weekly Cups (Dec 1-7): Clem doubles, Solar gets over the hump
Tourneys
RSL Offline Finals Info - Dec 13 and 14! Master Swan Open (Global Bronze-Master 2) Winter Warp Gate Amateur Showdown #1: Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament $5,000+ WardiTV 2025 Championship
Strategy
Custom Maps
Map Editor closed ?
External Content
Mutation # 504 Retribution Mutation # 503 Fowl Play Mutation # 502 Negative Reinforcement Mutation # 501 Price of Progress
Brood War
General
FlaSh on: Biggest Problem With SnOw's Playstyle How Rain Became ProGamer in Just 3 Months BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ [BSL21] RO8 Bracket & Prediction Contest BW General Discussion
Tourneys
Small VOD Thread 2.0 [Megathread] Daily Proleagues [BSL21] WB SEMIFINALS - Saturday 21:00 CET [BSL21] RO8 - Day 2 - Sunday 21:00 CET
Strategy
Game Theory for Starcraft Current Meta Simple Questions, Simple Answers Fighting Spirit mining rates
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Path of Exile Nintendo Switch Thread General RTS Discussion Thread Dawn of War IV
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
Mafia Game Mode Feedback/Ideas Survivor II: The Amazon Sengoku Mafia TL Mafia Community Thread
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine The Games Industry And ATVI Russo-Ukrainian War Thread YouTube Thread
Fan Clubs
White-Ra Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Anime Discussion Thread [Manga] One Piece Movie Discussion!
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
TL+ Announced Where to ask questions and add stream?
Blogs
The (Hidden) Drug Problem in…
TrAiDoS
I decided to write a webnov…
DjKniteX
James Bond movies ranking - pa…
Topin
Thanks for the RSL
Hildegard
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 1721 users

My ideas to compensate the swarmhost nerf

Forum Index > Closed
Post a Reply
Skyblueone
Profile Joined June 2012
Belgium155 Posts
April 14 2015 22:42 GMT
#1
Intro

First of all I want to precise that I'm a bio terran player so sorry in advance if the following suggestions seems a little biased.

When I saw all the complains about the sh nerf I was just telling myself that it was to early for zergs to whine and that zerg would figure something out on their own. That's exactly what some people were saying during the era of gglords and imbators and it was exactly what some other people where saying during the msc completely broken.

The fact is that if we don't try to anticipate the meta (to some extends) we are just going to have some useless, none fun game to watch for months and I do not want that.

Why the compensations?

Before swarmhost (end of wol), people dealt with mech in different way. The most common mech build was the mvp 3 cc/hellion/banshee and double upgrade (there was a similar bio build that made both build more powerful). Zergs were able to analyse the problem and found different ways to deal with it, passive with a big composition switches or some early roaches(sometime with hydras) timings. Those games with the roaches doom drop where so funny to watch.

But a few balance changes occurred since then. The banshee cloak cost decrease, hellbat arrived, thor 250 mm canon, nerf of the fungal and infested terran , upgraded air/ground combined, mines arrived etc etc. Of course zergs got their own buffs but they where created to counter the bio.

My suggestions

The raven: I believe that this is one of the more interesting unit of the game... except...when the terran is massing them, then it become painfully stupid.

TvT is so fun to watch and play right know because of it, it is even really good in the other match up too. It can be a defensive unit (pdd, turret) a great harass unit (turret in mineral lines, bombing the workers whhile droppîng elsewhere etc) and a cool support unit because of the detection (creep, borrow, dts). Look at this move and tell me that this is not why you are watching sc;

.

The problem is that terran are not making it in those match-up because of the big techlab restriction.

This is how, I think, this unit could be fix, make it so terran player can only make one at a time (like the msc for protoss). That would mean a pretty big nerf. This is why we can at the same time buff the unit itself, for example, make it easier to build or decrease its cost. The best idea imo would be to build it from an OC if the starport is already build. We could see a raven every game and it would suppress the problem of mass ravens.

I know that a lot of people will counter this suggestion by saying that this is not warcraft (i never played it), but the idea is not to make the raven a terran hero. I believe that this change will increase the skillgap in the good way. Seeing pro player micro and multitask with it will be so cool.

The infestors: It used to be a useful spell caster with no auto attacks. Now they are quite boring, zergs make them when they are ahead or for the the money fungal when they are too far behind.

My idea is to buff neutral parasite. Seriously, I don't think this spell was used once since hots (even before that I believe). Make it possible to use it against any units, suppress the upgrade so we can use the spell directly, increase the range . If the unit is then to strong, a good way to balance it would be to nerf the infested units by removing the attack upgrades during the infestation or simply decrease the time of the infestation.

Overlords: I also think that overlord drops are underused lately. I think a good idea would be to create another upgrade (lair) to increase their armors. I missed the roach doom drop or seeing baneling being dropped on the top of death balls.
Isarios
Profile Joined March 2014
United States153 Posts
April 14 2015 23:00 GMT
#2
honestly, I just feel like fungal should be rebuffed slightly. not to WOL levels, but back from the pitiful level its at now. its so hard to use, i think you ahve to be confident in your ability to play excellently to use it. even pros only build a few just in case. and actually for the most part, those games that they've built infestors in they tend to lose.
Blahhh
Isarios
Profile Joined March 2014
United States153 Posts
April 14 2015 23:05 GMT
#3
Though, that does mean to something close to infestor broodlord nowadays with no swarm hosts...
Blahhh
Charoisaur
Profile Joined August 2014
Germany16021 Posts
April 14 2015 23:20 GMT
#4
The fact is that if we don't try to anticipate the meta (to some extends) we are just going to have some useless, none fun game to watch for months and I do not want that.

and if we do balance changes based on wrong anticipations we are also going to see useless, none fun game to watch for month.
you can't just buff one race because you think it is to weak without any statistics that support your claims.
If mech dominates gsl and proleague in the next few months then we can argue about making balance changes.
Many of the coolest moments in sc2 happen due to worker harassment
zelevin
Profile Joined January 2012
United States304 Posts
April 14 2015 23:21 GMT
#5
If only there was a public test server or something like that where blizzard could actively test changes of the game... Oh wait, that did exist, it was just never used.
Riquiz
Profile Joined June 2011
Netherlands402 Posts
April 14 2015 23:22 GMT
#6
It's not a nerf, it's a design decision and zerg will figure it out eventually.
Caster man does casting on yt/RiquizCasts
JCoto
Profile Joined October 2014
Spain574 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-04-14 23:26:12
April 14 2015 23:24 GMT
#7
On April 15 2015 08:00 Isarios wrote:
honestly, I just feel like fungal should be rebuffed slightly. not to WOL levels, but back from the pitiful level its at now. its so hard to use, i think you ahve to be confident in your ability to play excellently to use it. even pros only build a few just in case. and actually for the most part, those games that they've built infestors in they tend to lose.


Fungal growth needs their missile speed to be set to 15 again.

They nerfed it to 12 just in the end of HotS beta.


And Broodlords deserve the speed buff they have been needing for ages. All capital units move at 1.88 speed (slow speed standard) except it. That and move-shot micro (removal of damage point)
Skyblueone
Profile Joined June 2012
Belgium155 Posts
April 14 2015 23:28 GMT
#8
Ok but what to you think about the raven suggestion? They nerfed (or redesign if you prefer that term) sh because of "long boring games" but know mass terran air will replace it.
JCoto
Profile Joined October 2014
Spain574 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-04-14 23:32:01
April 14 2015 23:31 GMT
#9
On April 15 2015 08:28 Skyblueone wrote:
Ok but what to you think about the raven suggestion? They nerfed (or redesign if you prefer that term) sh because of "long boring games" but know mass terran air will replace it.


About the raven? Supply cost incresed to 3. Mass raven 50% weaker by default. (all air casters cost 3 supply, even BW science vessel)
Banshee supply cost set to 2.

Potential buffs to the raven would be to adjust PDD and seeker missile and buff Raven move speed.
JBright
Profile Joined September 2010
Vancouver14381 Posts
April 14 2015 23:33 GMT
#10
Please take balance suggestions to battle.net.
ModeratorThe good and the wise lead quiet lives. Neo's #1 Frenemy and nightmare.
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 7h 35m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
RuFF_SC2 184
ProTech134
Nathanias 73
Ketroc 40
Vindicta 23
StarCraft: Brood War
Bale 256
Noble 33
Mong 31
Hm[arnc] 12
scan(afreeca) 10
Icarus 5
Dota 2
monkeys_forever254
League of Legends
C9.Mang0412
JimRising 108
Super Smash Bros
hungrybox325
Other Games
summit1g10113
XaKoH 509
PiGStarcraft299
ViBE201
Maynarde113
Trikslyr81
Livibee41
CosmosSc2 39
Mew2King38
Organizations
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 14 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• intothetv
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• Azhi_Dahaki21
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Dota 2
• masondota22422
League of Legends
• Doublelift3967
• Scarra730
Upcoming Events
WardiTV 2025
7h 35m
ByuN vs Creator
Clem vs Rogue
Scarlett vs Spirit
ShoWTimE vs Cure
OSC
10h 35m
Big Brain Bouts
13h 35m
YoungYakov vs Jumy
TriGGeR vs Spirit
CranKy Ducklings
1d 6h
WardiTV 2025
1d 7h
Reynor vs MaxPax
SHIN vs TBD
Solar vs herO
Classic vs TBD
SC Evo League
1d 9h
Ladder Legends
1d 15h
BSL 21
1d 16h
Sziky vs Dewalt
eOnzErG vs Cross
Sparkling Tuna Cup
2 days
Ladder Legends
2 days
[ Show More ]
BSL 21
2 days
StRyKeR vs TBD
Bonyth vs TBD
Replay Cast
3 days
Wardi Open
3 days
Monday Night Weeklies
3 days
WardiTV Invitational
5 days
Replay Cast
6 days
WardiTV Invitational
6 days
ByuN vs Solar
Clem vs Classic
Cure vs herO
Reynor vs MaxPax
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Acropolis #4 - TS3
RSL Offline Finals
Kuram Kup

Ongoing

C-Race Season 1
IPSL Winter 2025-26
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 4
YSL S2
BSL Season 21
Slon Tour Season 2
CSL Season 19: Qualifier 1
WardiTV 2025
META Madness #9
eXTREMESLAND 2025
SL Budapest Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 8
BLAST Rivals Fall 2025
IEM Chengdu 2025
PGL Masters Bucharest 2025
Thunderpick World Champ.
CS Asia Championships 2025
ESL Pro League S22

Upcoming

CSL Season 19: Qualifier 2
CSL 2025 WINTER (S19)
BSL 21 Non-Korean Championship
Acropolis #4
IPSL Spring 2026
Bellum Gens Elite Stara Zagora 2026
HSC XXVIII
Big Gabe Cup #3
OSC Championship Season 13
ESL Pro League Season 23
PGL Cluj-Napoca 2026
IEM Kraków 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter Qual
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.