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[M] (2) The Dark moon - Page 2

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The_Templar
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
your Country52797 Posts
August 23 2014 19:47 GMT
#21
Sitting in front of your fourth still protects every attack path except the one behind the natural (which is really annoying).
Moderatorshe/her
TL+ Member
GeneralSezme
Profile Joined July 2014
United States58 Posts
August 23 2014 20:12 GMT
#22
On August 24 2014 04:47 The_Templar wrote:
Sitting in front of your fourth still protects every attack path except the one behind the natural (which is really annoying).

You have to spread really thin to do so hold the middle choke and the 2 ramps at your third and keeping an eye on your nat. It's not easy to take 3 bases and get away with it, if your opponent does a timing attack and you don't have enough units then your incredible risk will not pay off. A lot of games I have seen have not gotten as far as 3 bases. Lots of back and forth action taking place in the middle, which for me was pretty exciting to watch
Melee map maker
zergJared
Profile Joined October 2010
United States56 Posts
August 28 2014 23:57 GMT
#23
hey man played a bunch on games on this map. its super fun. and i dont know what people are talking about this map being super split.

Very few games ive played go into the late game and going beyond 2 base is really interesting for gameplay the way the map is set up. Id like to see this map on ladder actually.
GeneralSezme
Profile Joined July 2014
United States58 Posts
August 29 2014 21:21 GMT
#24
On August 29 2014 08:57 zergJared wrote:
hey man played a bunch on games on this map. its super fun. and i dont know what people are talking about this map being super split.

Very few games ive played go into the late game and going beyond 2 base is really interesting for gameplay the way the map is set up. Id like to see this map on ladder actually.

Thanks i appreciate it
Melee map maker
Timetwister22
Profile Joined March 2011
United States538 Posts
August 30 2014 17:44 GMT
#25
Unless you have 250+ games on this map with at least 10 different top8 masters players of each race, then whatever games you have on this map are statistically worthless. It's good to get games on a map to get a feel for how they play, yet that never gives the whole picture. This is why bad maps can make it to ladder, as initial games show promise, but then massive amounts of games show problems. Thus, I suggest you stop pointing to the few amount of games you have on this map to back up your arguments here. Those games are statistically worthless, even if they were played on by pros.

As far as the map itself, I'm going to have to say it's not that good. It's alright for a beginner's map, but to argue this map doesn't have the issues, that several others in this thread have pointed out, is silly. Everything from the proportions, natural design, third design, and the overall super split map shows a great amount of inexperience with the editor, and overall will lead to poor quality games. That doesn't mean this map can't host good games, just means the vast majority will be 4base split map turtle fests. Your map is not the first map to have very similar features. In fact, these features that you are messing with are very standard features, in that they have been true and tried since 2011. Thus, any experienced mapmaker should be able to determine that this map will not work out well, and that is exactly what has been going on in this thread.

Please understand, that I'm not saying this to be an asshole. Tough criticism is extremely important for maps, and if the mapmaker cannot handle it, then that mapmaker simply is not meant to be a mapmaker. The people here are trying to be honest and helpful, so please do not just disregard them by saying "No you're wrong, I've seen some games on this map before." Especially don't use said excuse if you don't even provide the replays of said games. This community is trying to help you improve, but if you can't handle the criticism, then this place is probably not for you.
Former ESV Mapmaker | @Timetwister22
GeneralSezme
Profile Joined July 2014
United States58 Posts
August 30 2014 22:52 GMT
#26
On August 31 2014 02:44 Timetwister22 wrote:
Unless you have 250+ games on this map with at least 10 different top8 masters players of each race, then whatever games you have on this map are statistically worthless. It's good to get games on a map to get a feel for how they play, yet that never gives the whole picture. This is why bad maps can make it to ladder, as initial games show promise, but then massive amounts of games show problems. Thus, I suggest you stop pointing to the few amount of games you have on this map to back up your arguments here. Those games are statistically worthless, even if they were played on by pros.

As far as the map itself, I'm going to have to say it's not that good. It's alright for a beginner's map, but to argue this map doesn't have the issues, that several others in this thread have pointed out, is silly. Everything from the proportions, natural design, third design, and the overall super split map shows a great amount of inexperience with the editor, and overall will lead to poor quality games. That doesn't mean this map can't host good games, just means the vast majority will be 4base split map turtle fests. Your map is not the first map to have very similar features. In fact, these features that you are messing with are very standard features, in that they have been true and tried since 2011. Thus, any experienced mapmaker should be able to determine that this map will not work out well, and that is exactly what has been going on in this thread.

Please understand, that I'm not saying this to be an asshole. Tough criticism is extremely important for maps, and if the mapmaker cannot handle it, then that mapmaker simply is not meant to be a mapmaker. The people here are trying to be honest and helpful, so please do not just disregard them by saying "No you're wrong, I've seen some games on this map before." Especially don't use said excuse if you don't even provide the replays of said games. This community is trying to help you improve, but if you can't handle the criticism, then this place is probably not for you.


WHAT? I have AT LEAST 100 games observed not counting how many games I have played myself, 50 or more. You haven't even played on it and your assuming that just because the terrain layout is a certain way, means that ONE THING WILL HAPPEN EVERY GAME. I hate to say your dead wrong, BUT YOUR WRONG. I see your trying to throw sly insults about how I make maps, I'm not new to the editor. I've made some maps that I learned a lesson or two from but I'm no retard terraining and throwin 4 minerals and a gas at a base no one will take.

I haven't once told someone they are wrong, I am telling them what I have seen on my map which they have never even played, and just like you just judge it by its looks, play before you criticize it because you don't even have any game play or statistics. I don't mind the little suggestions and if i think someone is right then i change it, I have seen so many games on this map, and just because 3 people say its a turtly map means i care what they have to say? I believe this is not a turtly map, and like i have said many times most games do not even go past 3 bases, barely over 2 when players start taking their 3rd because by then one player does some sort of mid game timing that that catches the other player of guard and kills them outright. I have played mech a couple ties on this map i have only won one time, because early mutas destroy my base because it costs a lot to line your base in missile turrets. Please don't tell me i was playing mech wrong i was taking tips from the avilo.

I'm going to explain what I have seen in the past games I seen.
Most games do not go past 3 bases, the middle rocks make for exciting back and forth action, not long ago i was watching Master vs. Master ZvZ it was the most exciting ZvZ i have ever seen in my life it was about 15 minutes there was none of that bland same stuff you would see in a normal ZvZ, By the way i don't get 2 bronze league players to play on my map for me if that's why you are doubting my statistics, I always have at least diamond players or masters playing for me. How about you play 200 games on my map and tell me what happens, I'm sure your feedback will be truthful and insightful.

Your criticism is not even criticism it's just blatant insults and attacks maybe even a touch of jealousy

Don't act like your a big bad mapper because your shit map got featured by Blizzard. I would think since blizzard would have featured your map your map would have 10000 times more 5 star reviews then mine. It just goes to show the many mistakes Blizzard makes. I bet it hasn't even been played by 50 people so you shouldn't talk about statistics because you haven't even played your map yourself

I hope you enjoyed wasting an hour of your life hating on me and my innovation here, at the end of the day you are just 1 hater of many people who like and enjoy my map .

-Good day, sir
Melee map maker
lefix
Profile Joined February 2011
Germany1082 Posts
August 30 2014 23:12 GMT
#27
As much as you may like your own map, you cannot force other people to like it. It sucks when you put work into a map and noone seems to appreciate it. But everyone around here has been through that often enough. There is no need to be an ass about it.

Move on, make another map. As good as you may think this map is, the next one is always going to be even better.
Map of the Month | The Planetary Workshop | SC2Melee.net
GeneralSezme
Profile Joined July 2014
United States58 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-08-30 23:15:01
August 30 2014 23:14 GMT
#28
On August 31 2014 08:12 lefix wrote:
As much as you may like your own map, you cannot force other people to like it. It sucks when you put work into a map and noone seems to appreciate it. But everyone around here has been through that often enough. There is no need to be an ass about it.

Move on, make another map. As good as you may think this map is, the next one is always going to be even better.

I'm not upset that like, 3 people don't like my map, of course when there's something to hate, there will be haters. When have I forced anyone to like my map?
Please quote me
Melee map maker
NewSunshine
Profile Joined July 2011
United States5938 Posts
August 30 2014 23:23 GMT
#29
On August 31 2014 07:52 GeneralSezme wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 31 2014 02:44 Timetwister22 wrote:
Unless you have 250+ games on this map with at least 10 different top8 masters players of each race, then whatever games you have on this map are statistically worthless. It's good to get games on a map to get a feel for how they play, yet that never gives the whole picture. This is why bad maps can make it to ladder, as initial games show promise, but then massive amounts of games show problems. Thus, I suggest you stop pointing to the few amount of games you have on this map to back up your arguments here. Those games are statistically worthless, even if they were played on by pros.

As far as the map itself, I'm going to have to say it's not that good. It's alright for a beginner's map, but to argue this map doesn't have the issues, that several others in this thread have pointed out, is silly. Everything from the proportions, natural design, third design, and the overall super split map shows a great amount of inexperience with the editor, and overall will lead to poor quality games. That doesn't mean this map can't host good games, just means the vast majority will be 4base split map turtle fests. Your map is not the first map to have very similar features. In fact, these features that you are messing with are very standard features, in that they have been true and tried since 2011. Thus, any experienced mapmaker should be able to determine that this map will not work out well, and that is exactly what has been going on in this thread.

Please understand, that I'm not saying this to be an asshole. Tough criticism is extremely important for maps, and if the mapmaker cannot handle it, then that mapmaker simply is not meant to be a mapmaker. The people here are trying to be honest and helpful, so please do not just disregard them by saying "No you're wrong, I've seen some games on this map before." Especially don't use said excuse if you don't even provide the replays of said games. This community is trying to help you improve, but if you can't handle the criticism, then this place is probably not for you.

+ Show Spoiler +

WHAT? I have AT LEAST 100 games observed not counting how many games I have played myself, 50 or more. You haven't even played on it and your assuming that just because the terrain layout is a certain way, means that ONE THING WILL HAPPEN EVERY GAME. I hate to say your dead wrong, BUT YOUR WRONG. I see your trying to throw sly insults about how I make maps, I'm not new to the editor. I've made some maps that I learned a lesson or two from but I'm no retard terraining and throwin 4 minerals and a gas at a base no one will take.

I haven't once told someone they are wrong, I am telling them what I have seen on my map which they have never even played, and just like you just judge it by its looks, play before you criticize it because you don't even have any game play or statistics. I don't mind the little suggestions and if i think someone is right then i change it, I have seen so many games on this map, and just because 3 people say its a turtly map means i care what they have to say? I believe this is not a turtly map, and like i have said many times most games do not even go past 3 bases, barely over 2 when players start taking their 3rd because by then one player does some sort of mid game timing that that catches the other player of guard and kills them outright. I have played mech a couple ties on this map i have only won one time, because early mutas destroy my base because it costs a lot to line your base in missile turrets. Please don't tell me i was playing mech wrong i was taking tips from the avilo.

I'm going to explain what I have seen in the past games I seen.
Most games do not go past 3 bases, the middle rocks make for exciting back and forth action, not long ago i was watching Master vs. Master ZvZ it was the most exciting ZvZ i have ever seen in my life it was about 15 minutes there was none of that bland same stuff you would see in a normal ZvZ, By the way i don't get 2 bronze league players to play on my map for me if that's why you are doubting my statistics, I always have at least diamond players or masters playing for me. How about you play 200 games on my map and tell me what happens, I'm sure your feedback will be truthful and insightful.

Your criticism is not even criticism it's just blatant insults and attacks maybe even a touch of jealousy

Don't act like your a big bad mapper because your shit map got featured by Blizzard. I would think since blizzard would have featured your map your map would have 10000 times more 5 star reviews then mine. It just goes to show the many mistakes Blizzard makes. I bet it hasn't even been played by 50 people so you shouldn't talk about statistics because you haven't even played your map yourself

I hope you enjoyed wasting an hour of your life hating on me and my innovation here, at the end of the day you are just 1 hater of many people who like and enjoy my map .

-Good day, sir

You keep citing these games people played on your map. Replays are easy enough to provide, so doing so will actually support your claims. Until then, I'm going to say the same thing he is. Your map is unrefined. It shows inexperience, something that gets better as you make more maps. Also, on the subject of games, you must not be paying very good attention. His 2v2 map Preservation just got on ladder. My 4v4 map Retribution has been on ladder for several seasons now. Yes, people know better than you, that's why you work on it. Learn to take a comment or just go away.
"If you find yourself feeling lost, take pride in the accuracy of your feelings." - Night Vale
lefix
Profile Joined February 2011
Germany1082 Posts
August 30 2014 23:40 GMT
#30
The fact that you're getting very defensive to the point that you're attacking people who are just giving you honest feedback shows that you're not taking criticism well. The sad truth is, it doesn't really matter who is right or wrong. It's not going to change how people feel about your map.

And yes, you are right about one thing. There will always be haters. No matter how good a map might be, someone is always going to hate it, even maps that make it on ladder, especially those. Better get used to it

This map, however, is just not going to be the next big thing. Best advice I can give you is to just start working on the next one.
Map of the Month | The Planetary Workshop | SC2Melee.net
GeneralSezme
Profile Joined July 2014
United States58 Posts
August 31 2014 00:10 GMT
#31
On August 31 2014 08:23 NewSunshine wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 31 2014 07:52 GeneralSezme wrote:
On August 31 2014 02:44 Timetwister22 wrote:
Unless you have 250+ games on this map with at least 10 different top8 masters players of each race, then whatever games you have on this map are statistically worthless. It's good to get games on a map to get a feel for how they play, yet that never gives the whole picture. This is why bad maps can make it to ladder, as initial games show promise, but then massive amounts of games show problems. Thus, I suggest you stop pointing to the few amount of games you have on this map to back up your arguments here. Those games are statistically worthless, even if they were played on by pros.

As far as the map itself, I'm going to have to say it's not that good. It's alright for a beginner's map, but to argue this map doesn't have the issues, that several others in this thread have pointed out, is silly. Everything from the proportions, natural design, third design, and the overall super split map shows a great amount of inexperience with the editor, and overall will lead to poor quality games. That doesn't mean this map can't host good games, just means the vast majority will be 4base split map turtle fests. Your map is not the first map to have very similar features. In fact, these features that you are messing with are very standard features, in that they have been true and tried since 2011. Thus, any experienced mapmaker should be able to determine that this map will not work out well, and that is exactly what has been going on in this thread.

Please understand, that I'm not saying this to be an asshole. Tough criticism is extremely important for maps, and if the mapmaker cannot handle it, then that mapmaker simply is not meant to be a mapmaker. The people here are trying to be honest and helpful, so please do not just disregard them by saying "No you're wrong, I've seen some games on this map before." Especially don't use said excuse if you don't even provide the replays of said games. This community is trying to help you improve, but if you can't handle the criticism, then this place is probably not for you.

+ Show Spoiler +

WHAT? I have AT LEAST 100 games observed not counting how many games I have played myself, 50 or more. You haven't even played on it and your assuming that just because the terrain layout is a certain way, means that ONE THING WILL HAPPEN EVERY GAME. I hate to say your dead wrong, BUT YOUR WRONG. I see your trying to throw sly insults about how I make maps, I'm not new to the editor. I've made some maps that I learned a lesson or two from but I'm no retard terraining and throwin 4 minerals and a gas at a base no one will take.

I haven't once told someone they are wrong, I am telling them what I have seen on my map which they have never even played, and just like you just judge it by its looks, play before you criticize it because you don't even have any game play or statistics. I don't mind the little suggestions and if i think someone is right then i change it, I have seen so many games on this map, and just because 3 people say its a turtly map means i care what they have to say? I believe this is not a turtly map, and like i have said many times most games do not even go past 3 bases, barely over 2 when players start taking their 3rd because by then one player does some sort of mid game timing that that catches the other player of guard and kills them outright. I have played mech a couple ties on this map i have only won one time, because early mutas destroy my base because it costs a lot to line your base in missile turrets. Please don't tell me i was playing mech wrong i was taking tips from the avilo.

I'm going to explain what I have seen in the past games I seen.
Most games do not go past 3 bases, the middle rocks make for exciting back and forth action, not long ago i was watching Master vs. Master ZvZ it was the most exciting ZvZ i have ever seen in my life it was about 15 minutes there was none of that bland same stuff you would see in a normal ZvZ, By the way i don't get 2 bronze league players to play on my map for me if that's why you are doubting my statistics, I always have at least diamond players or masters playing for me. How about you play 200 games on my map and tell me what happens, I'm sure your feedback will be truthful and insightful.

Your criticism is not even criticism it's just blatant insults and attacks maybe even a touch of jealousy

Don't act like your a big bad mapper because your shit map got featured by Blizzard. I would think since blizzard would have featured your map your map would have 10000 times more 5 star reviews then mine. It just goes to show the many mistakes Blizzard makes. I bet it hasn't even been played by 50 people so you shouldn't talk about statistics because you haven't even played your map yourself

I hope you enjoyed wasting an hour of your life hating on me and my innovation here, at the end of the day you are just 1 hater of many people who like and enjoy my map .

-Good day, sir

You keep citing these games people played on your map. Replays are easy enough to provide, so doing so will actually support your claims. Until then, I'm going to say the same thing he is. Your map is unrefined. It shows inexperience, something that gets better as you make more maps. Also, on the subject of games, you must not be paying very good attention. His 2v2 map Preservation just got on ladder. My 4v4 map Retribution has been on ladder for several seasons now. Yes, people know better than you, that's why you work on it. Learn to take a comment or just go away.

So you want replays that's what your asking? Well games i observed are unsaved and gone now, I only observe games to see how each play out and update the map if something is broken or unbalanced the only recent replays i have is me beating a low level player and a TvT. I haven't been spectating games since I started my new map and going to school.

How does a map show inexperience, explain from this image, inexperience I have, please do so.
Melee map maker
GeneralSezme
Profile Joined July 2014
United States58 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-08-31 00:17:51
August 31 2014 00:17 GMT
#32
On August 31 2014 08:40 lefix wrote:
The fact that you're getting very defensive to the point that you're attacking people who are just giving you honest feedback shows that you're not taking criticism well. The sad truth is, it doesn't really matter who is right or wrong. It's not going to change how people feel about your map.

And yes, you are right about one thing. There will always be haters. No matter how good a map might be, someone is always going to hate it, even maps that make it on ladder, especially those. Better get used to it

This map, however, is just not going to be the next big thing. Best advice I can give you is to just start working on the next one.

I'm not attacking anyone, I'm not just going to let this timetwister guys attack on me, sit around making my map look bad so I defended myself, hes just mad because I gave him a bad rating on his map.

I haven't attacked anyone else, people who have commented their concerns, I have replied to them how I've seen each game played out, if they don't believe me then I don't care, they just got to play it themselves.
Melee map maker
The_Templar
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
your Country52797 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-08-31 00:19:46
August 31 2014 00:19 GMT
#33
On August 31 2014 09:10 GeneralSezme wrote:

How does a map show inexperience, explain from this image, inexperience I have, please do so.

proportions are wrong, there are a lot of badly placed things (the center bases, some of the ramps).

On August 31 2014 09:17 GeneralSezme wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 31 2014 08:40 lefix wrote:
The fact that you're getting very defensive to the point that you're attacking people who are just giving you honest feedback shows that you're not taking criticism well. The sad truth is, it doesn't really matter who is right or wrong. It's not going to change how people feel about your map.

And yes, you are right about one thing. There will always be haters. No matter how good a map might be, someone is always going to hate it, even maps that make it on ladder, especially those. Better get used to it

This map, however, is just not going to be the next big thing. Best advice I can give you is to just start working on the next one.

I'm not attacking anyone, I'm not just going to let this timetwister guys attack on me, sit around making my map look bad so I defended myself, hes just mad because I gave him a bad rating on his map.

I haven't attacked anyone else, people who have commented their concerns, I have replied to them how I've seen each game played out, if they don't believe me then I don't care, they just got to play it themselves.

Timetwister isn't attacking you, more on this when I finish my main post in response to the response to timetwister's post.
Moderatorshe/her
TL+ Member
GeneralSezme
Profile Joined July 2014
United States58 Posts
August 31 2014 00:28 GMT
#34
On August 31 2014 09:19 The_Templar wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 31 2014 09:10 GeneralSezme wrote:

How does a map show inexperience, explain from this image, inexperience I have, please do so.

proportions are wrong, there are a lot of badly placed things (the center bases, some of the ramps).

Show nested quote +
On August 31 2014 09:17 GeneralSezme wrote:
On August 31 2014 08:40 lefix wrote:
The fact that you're getting very defensive to the point that you're attacking people who are just giving you honest feedback shows that you're not taking criticism well. The sad truth is, it doesn't really matter who is right or wrong. It's not going to change how people feel about your map.

And yes, you are right about one thing. There will always be haters. No matter how good a map might be, someone is always going to hate it, even maps that make it on ladder, especially those. Better get used to it

This map, however, is just not going to be the next big thing. Best advice I can give you is to just start working on the next one.

I'm not attacking anyone, I'm not just going to let this timetwister guys attack on me, sit around making my map look bad so I defended myself, hes just mad because I gave him a bad rating on his map.

I haven't attacked anyone else, people who have commented their concerns, I have replied to them how I've seen each game played out, if they don't believe me then I don't care, they just got to play it themselves.

Timetwister isn't attacking you, more on this when I finish my main post in response to the response to timetwister's post.


I don't know what you mean by proportions, and I think the ramps and bases make my map unique, I'm not shooting for standard game play if you haven't noticed by the layout of the map.
Melee map maker
The_Templar
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
your Country52797 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-08-31 00:33:56
August 31 2014 00:32 GMT
#35
On August 31 2014 09:28 GeneralSezme wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 31 2014 09:19 The_Templar wrote:
On August 31 2014 09:10 GeneralSezme wrote:

How does a map show inexperience, explain from this image, inexperience I have, please do so.

proportions are wrong, there are a lot of badly placed things (the center bases, some of the ramps).

On August 31 2014 09:17 GeneralSezme wrote:
On August 31 2014 08:40 lefix wrote:
The fact that you're getting very defensive to the point that you're attacking people who are just giving you honest feedback shows that you're not taking criticism well. The sad truth is, it doesn't really matter who is right or wrong. It's not going to change how people feel about your map.

And yes, you are right about one thing. There will always be haters. No matter how good a map might be, someone is always going to hate it, even maps that make it on ladder, especially those. Better get used to it

This map, however, is just not going to be the next big thing. Best advice I can give you is to just start working on the next one.

I'm not attacking anyone, I'm not just going to let this timetwister guys attack on me, sit around making my map look bad so I defended myself, hes just mad because I gave him a bad rating on his map.

I haven't attacked anyone else, people who have commented their concerns, I have replied to them how I've seen each game played out, if they don't believe me then I don't care, they just got to play it themselves.

Timetwister isn't attacking you, more on this when I finish my main post in response to the response to timetwister's post.


I don't know what you mean by proportions, and I think the ramps and bases make my map unique, I'm not shooting for standard game play if you haven't noticed by the layout of the map.

Proportions = Size of everything relative to everything else. Main problems there are:
-Main is too small
-Path between natural and fourth is very small
-Center bases clog up a lot of the center
I do agree with lefix that you should give this map up and try again on a blank slate.

Oh, and this is about as standard as you can get by the way >.>
Moderatorshe/her
TL+ Member
The_Templar
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
your Country52797 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-08-31 00:38:44
August 31 2014 00:37 GMT
#36
MAIN THE_TEMPLAR RESPONSE

On August 31 2014 07:52 GeneralSezme wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
On August 31 2014 02:44 Timetwister22 wrote:
Unless you have 250+ games on this map with at least 10 different top8 masters players of each race, then whatever games you have on this map are statistically worthless. It's good to get games on a map to get a feel for how they play, yet that never gives the whole picture. This is why bad maps can make it to ladder, as initial games show promise, but then massive amounts of games show problems. Thus, I suggest you stop pointing to the few amount of games you have on this map to back up your arguments here. Those games are statistically worthless, even if they were played on by pros.

As far as the map itself, I'm going to have to say it's not that good. It's alright for a beginner's map, but to argue this map doesn't have the issues, that several others in this thread have pointed out, is silly. Everything from the proportions, natural design, third design, and the overall super split map shows a great amount of inexperience with the editor, and overall will lead to poor quality games. That doesn't mean this map can't host good games, just means the vast majority will be 4base split map turtle fests. Your map is not the first map to have very similar features. In fact, these features that you are messing with are very standard features, in that they have been true and tried since 2011. Thus, any experienced mapmaker should be able to determine that this map will not work out well, and that is exactly what has been going on in this thread.

Please understand, that I'm not saying this to be an asshole. Tough criticism is extremely important for maps, and if the mapmaker cannot handle it, then that mapmaker simply is not meant to be a mapmaker. The people here are trying to be honest and helpful, so please do not just disregard them by saying "No you're wrong, I've seen some games on this map before." Especially don't use said excuse if you don't even provide the replays of said games. This community is trying to help you improve, but if you can't handle the criticism, then this place is probably not for you.


WHAT? I have AT LEAST 100 games observed not counting how many games I have played myself, 50 or more. You haven't even played on it and your assuming that just because the terrain layout is a certain way, means that ONE THING WILL HAPPEN EVERY GAME. I hate to say your dead wrong, BUT YOUR WRONG. I see your trying to throw sly insults about how I make maps, I'm not new to the editor. I've made some maps that I learned a lesson or two from but I'm no retard terraining and throwin 4 minerals and a gas at a base no one will take.

I haven't once told someone they are wrong, I am telling them what I have seen on my map which they have never even played, and just like you just judge it by its looks, play before you criticize it because you don't even have any game play or statistics. I don't mind the little suggestions and if i think someone is right then i change it, I have seen so many games on this map, and just because 3 people say its a turtly map means i care what they have to say? I believe this is not a turtly map, and like i have said many times most games do not even go past 3 bases, barely over 2 when players start taking their 3rd because by then one player does some sort of mid game timing that that catches the other player of guard and kills them outright. I have played mech a couple ties on this map i have only won one time, because early mutas destroy my base because it costs a lot to line your base in missile turrets. Please don't tell me i was playing mech wrong i was taking tips from the avilo.

I'm going to explain what I have seen in the past games I seen.
Most games do not go past 3 bases, the middle rocks make for exciting back and forth action, not long ago i was watching Master vs. Master ZvZ it was the most exciting ZvZ i have ever seen in my life it was about 15 minutes there was none of that bland same stuff you would see in a normal ZvZ, By the way i don't get 2 bronze league players to play on my map for me if that's why you are doubting my statistics, I always have at least diamond players or masters playing for me. How about you play 200 games on my map and tell me what happens, I'm sure your feedback will be truthful and insightful.

Your criticism is not even criticism it's just blatant insults and attacks maybe even a touch of jealousy

Don't act like your a big bad mapper because your shit map got featured by Blizzard. I would think since blizzard would have featured your map your map would have 10000 times more 5 star reviews then mine. It just goes to show the many mistakes Blizzard makes. I bet it hasn't even been played by 50 people so you shouldn't talk about statistics because you haven't even played your map yourself

I hope you enjoyed wasting an hour of your life hating on me and my innovation here, at the end of the day you are just 1 hater of many people who like and enjoy my map .




Oh geez, I was afraid of this reaction. That post was basically a summary of nearly all of the opinions of the expert mapmakers on this site and The_Templar (me). Here's where all of the problems that have to do with bad maps and good maps being nearly indistinguishable from each other come to light.

Here's how I see it. The problem with most (read: beginning or not serious) mapmakers is that they visualize what will actually happen when their map is played and they will probably share these ideas with others. This sort of process leads to one of:

a. The mapmaker playtests ideas with friends, peers, clan mates, etc. This leads to one of:
      1. There might be something wrong with the map but it's unclear.
            A. Their peers accept the ideas and don't bother experimenting with other ideas, giving the illusion the map is perfect.
                  Go to step b, or just stop
            B. Their peers reject the idea and the mapmaker makes revisions. Go back to step a. This becomes a closed loop
                  which eventually leads to a(1(A)), where no further changes are made.
      2. There's clearly something wrong with the map.
            A. There is a quick fix that is done to improve the execution.
            B. There's a large problem with the map that could be fixed with some work. Generally this is ignored or patched in the
                  least time-consuming way possible.
            C. There is a huge flaw that makes the map worthless or unplayable. This might mean:
                  I. Map is scrapped and redone: Good job, you have improved.
                  II. See a(2(B)). This is not a good way to improve because you're not really fixing a map, you're just making the
                        same map more playable.
      3. There's something wrong with the mapmaker's basic ideas.
            A. Ask an expert for help (b(1)). This is the best way to improve if you find the right experts, but prepare to be wrong.
            B. Ignore the problems and insist everything you're doing is fine. (Seriously, don't do this)
            C. Post on forums and take the advice of anyone that posts.

b. The mapmaker asks expert players or mapmakers (since the mapmakers referenced here aren't professionals, they often won't know these people very well) for help.
      1. The expert will offer possible solutions for problems you didn't know existed. This will always happen.
            A. These problems are usually important unless specified as not being so. Fix all of the problems. Not one problem at a
                  time, ALL of them.
            B. If you don't understand the problem, you will only improve if you ask about it.
      2. You will fix the problems, creating new ones that you didn't know existed. Go back to b(1) until this doesn't happen.
      3. Alternatively, try working on your own to fix the problems if you think you have a better idea. This could take two paths:
            A. Do this without listening to the expert. Why did you bother asking? Go back to b(1) if you want to improve the map.
            B. Implement the idea, while keeping in mind what the expert has said. You can do something else, but try to
                  understand why the expert advised you to take a certain path.

The problem with path a is that you always view your map as something good or bad, and always by yourself. There are individual, unrelated problems that can be patched up fairly easily. Other people give input on whether something is good or bad. Maps can not be quantified like this! While it is less likely that the majority opinion is wrong (as opposed to asking one expert), you will never actually learn anything because most people have little or no knowledge of mapmaking. Additionally, this is always a bad approach because ignoring everything except for one issue will often create other issues.

Taking path b will educate you on how these issues relate to each other (so your map features don't ruin themselves) and will actually teach you how to make maps instead of bashing your head against the same wall for eternity.
The point I am making here is listen to the damn experts!



Now, it seems you made the map similar to process a(1(A)), meaning you made a map, and even though it was wrong, you were convinced that it was a great map, with lots of interesting play, because your peers confirmed your opinions for you. Once your peers were convinced your strategical ideals were the best (after all, you are the mapmaker), it wasn't hard for them to constantly attempt to play those interesting games instead of playing the map to its strength. In fact, the play on the map probably seemed a lot like how you envisioned it in the first place.

If this is not clear, I mean to say that how you plan a map is often different than how it turns out, especially when considering how it plays out.

Intended design behind the map: Interesting, somewhat macro map with lots of options available (backdoors, alternate paths etc).
Here is a diagram labeling all the viable-looking attack paths from the bottom right to the top left in a four base vs four base scenario. These definitely look different and interesting, don't they?
+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]

Additionally, the backdoor in the natural theoretically might allow you to easily attack an opponent's base later on in the game, a move which might in turn leave you vulnerable.

Eventual design behind this map: Large macro map designed to go to late game with nothing else really viable. Easy four bases. Backdoors that are tedious but not particularly difficult to defend. Split map mechanics in the late game.
+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]

That large red oval depicts the normal positioning of a 4-base army. The arrows show that it is easy to defend any of your four bases with relative ease whereas your opponent has to go quite a lot around to attack. More importantly, you can do it all from one spot, barely moving at all = Boring gameplay. You can guard the backdoor rocks very easily.

Yeah, both sides of the argument are both there. Doesn't mean that the one you want to be there is more prominent though. In fact, it's the opposite. Your games are back and forth because the players want your map to be good and they want to play the map in the way they think they're supposed to (Same reasoning behind everyone copying professional builds), but a player defending their four bases and taking the map to a long macro game has the upper hand here as it is quite difficult to crack them.

An expert player will, nearly 100% of the time, play in this way, as it is just much better than trying to go for the back-and-forth game due to the ease of defending.



Now, I'd like to discuss your attitude in the post directly following Timetwister's post, as you seem to have not actually read the post in question.

WHAT? I have AT LEAST 100 games observed not counting how many games I have played myself, 50 or more. You haven't even played on it and your assuming that just because the terrain layout is a certain way, means that ONE THING WILL HAPPEN EVERY GAME. I hate to say your dead wrong, BUT YOUR WRONG. I see your trying to throw sly insults about how I make maps, I'm not new to the editor. I've made some maps that I learned a lesson or two from but I'm no retard terraining and throwin 4 minerals and a gas at a base no one will take.

He wants you to provide sufficient data to show that high-level players also play in the way that you think they should, and that the map is, additionally, balanced when they play in this way. However, you (what league are you anyway?) don't specify any leagues and you don't provide any replay evidence that any of this is true. Why should we think that, in practice, the map runs counter-intuitive to the theory that clearly shows that it's a turtle map, when we don't have any high-level replays on it?

I haven't once told someone they are wrong, I am telling them what I have seen on my map which they have never even played, and just like you just judge it by its looks, play before you criticize it because you don't even have any game play or statistics. I don't mind the little suggestions and if i think someone is right then i change it, I have seen so many games on this map, and just because 3 people say its a turtly map means i care what they have to say? I believe this is not a turtly map, and like i have said many times most games do not even go past 3 bases, barely over 2 when players start taking their 3rd because by then one player does some sort of mid game timing that that catches the other player of guard and kills them outright. I have played mech a couple ties on this map i have only won one time, because early mutas destroy my base because it costs a lot to line your base in missile turrets. Please don't tell me i was playing mech wrong i was taking tips from the avilo.


*sigh* This paragraph makes me think you are trolling. If you aren't, which isn't incredibly unlikely, I will break this paragraph up and explain the problem with each of your points a bit.
I haven't once told someone they are wrong

BUT YOUR WRONG. I see your trying to throw sly insults about how I make maps

Nope.

I am telling them what I have seen on my map

See the theory part of this post. Always consult an expert. Always always do so, and then listen to him/her.

and just like you just judge it by its looks, play before you criticize it because you don't even have any game play or statistics

Actually, this is why we have map overviews and screenshots of various areas, so we can judge a map by its looks. When you have a large amount of experience making melee maps, you will be able to tell how big various areas of the map are and how they all work together, for example.

play before you criticize it because you don't even have any game play or statistics

A valid point, but it isn't necessary immediately. Gameplay comes when the map has developed to the point that it can be played on.

just because 3 people say its a turtly map means i care what they have to say?

An expert (the only expert to show up in the thread to give feedback on the map) + The_Templar (me) + one other person say it's a turtle map.

most games do not even go past 3 bases

Already addressed.

one player does some sort of mid game timing that that catches the other player of guard and kills them outright

So, these play tests involve one player doing a generic, non-map-specific 2 base or so timing and killing the other player (probably due to a lack of scouting/proper macro/micro/unit composition)? What skill level did you say these guys are?

I have played mech a couple ties on this map i have only won one time, because early mutas destroy my base because it costs a lot to line your base in missile turrets.

It sounds like you are playing mech wrong if you are dying to early mutalisks nearly every game.

Please don't tell me i was playing mech wrong i was taking tips from the avilo.

Avilo excels at late game mech AFAIK, not early game mech. I would go more into why I wouldn't take all of my mech advice from avilo but I'm not starting that conversation here.

I'm going to explain what I have seen in the past games I seen.
Most games do not go past 3 bases, the middle rocks make for exciting back and forth action, not long ago i was watching Master vs. Master ZvZ it was the most exciting ZvZ i have ever seen in my life it was about 15 minutes there was none of that bland same stuff you would see in a normal ZvZ, By the way i don't get 2 bronze league players to play on my map for me if that's why you are doubting my statistics, I always have at least diamond players or masters playing for me. How about you play 200 games on my map and tell me what happens, I'm sure your feedback will be truthful and insightful.

1. In reference to the bolded part, what exactly happened in this ZvZ, and how did the map affect it at all?
2. What statistics? You haven't given us any yet.
3. I'm not playing 200 games on your map because it's not a good enough map to be played on yet.

Your criticism is not even criticism it's just blatant insults and attacks maybe even a touch of jealousy

What is he jealous of exactly? He was a finalist in TLMC 1 and at least one MotM. Why would he want to insult you anyway? As I think I said somewhere else in this post, his post was extremely similar to quite a lot of expert opinions on the map (and as you've seen, a few of them have started posting here since then). We are definitely not all insulting you. Man (or woman) up and admit you might have been wrong.

Don't act like your a big bad mapper because your shit map got featured by Blizzard. I would think since blizzard would have featured your map your map would have 10000 times more 5 star reviews then mine. It just goes to show the many mistakes Blizzard makes. I bet it hasn't even been played by 50 people so you shouldn't talk about statistics because you haven't even played your map yourself

Why do you care how good a single map of his is? He makes a lot of maps (or at least, more than 1). And you imply that his maps are obviously bad based on his comment and that blizzard must have made a mistake, which is really silly to do. Blizzard is not full of idiots.

I hope you enjoyed wasting an hour of your life hating on me and my innovation here, at the end of the day you are just 1 hater of many people who like and enjoy my map .

Believe me, I didn't enjoy it.
Moderatorshe/her
TL+ Member
GeneralSezme
Profile Joined July 2014
United States58 Posts
August 31 2014 00:39 GMT
#37
On August 31 2014 09:32 The_Templar wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 31 2014 09:28 GeneralSezme wrote:
On August 31 2014 09:19 The_Templar wrote:
On August 31 2014 09:10 GeneralSezme wrote:

How does a map show inexperience, explain from this image, inexperience I have, please do so.

proportions are wrong, there are a lot of badly placed things (the center bases, some of the ramps).

On August 31 2014 09:17 GeneralSezme wrote:
On August 31 2014 08:40 lefix wrote:
The fact that you're getting very defensive to the point that you're attacking people who are just giving you honest feedback shows that you're not taking criticism well. The sad truth is, it doesn't really matter who is right or wrong. It's not going to change how people feel about your map.

And yes, you are right about one thing. There will always be haters. No matter how good a map might be, someone is always going to hate it, even maps that make it on ladder, especially those. Better get used to it

This map, however, is just not going to be the next big thing. Best advice I can give you is to just start working on the next one.

I'm not attacking anyone, I'm not just going to let this timetwister guys attack on me, sit around making my map look bad so I defended myself, hes just mad because I gave him a bad rating on his map.

I haven't attacked anyone else, people who have commented their concerns, I have replied to them how I've seen each game played out, if they don't believe me then I don't care, they just got to play it themselves.

Timetwister isn't attacking you, more on this when I finish my main post in response to the response to timetwister's post.


I don't know what you mean by proportions, and I think the ramps and bases make my map unique, I'm not shooting for standard game play if you haven't noticed by the layout of the map.

Proportions = Size of everything relative to everything else. Main problems there are:
-Main is too small
-Path between natural and fourth is very small
-Center bases clog up a lot of the center
I do agree with lefix that you should give this map up and try again on a blank slate.

Oh, and this is about as standard as you can get by the way >.>

Have not seen much standard play on this map, and i have not seen a problem with the path to the 4th because the 4th the 5th and the center are wide open places
Melee map maker
NewSunshine
Profile Joined July 2011
United States5938 Posts
August 31 2014 00:45 GMT
#38
On August 31 2014 09:10 GeneralSezme wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 31 2014 08:23 NewSunshine wrote:
You keep citing these games people played on your map. Replays are easy enough to provide, so doing so will actually support your claims. Until then, I'm going to say the same thing he is. Your map is unrefined. It shows inexperience, something that gets better as you make more maps. Also, on the subject of games, you must not be paying very good attention. His 2v2 map Preservation just got on ladder. My 4v4 map Retribution has been on ladder for several seasons now. Yes, people know better than you, that's why you work on it. Learn to take a comment or just go away.

So you want replays that's what your asking? Well games i observed are unsaved and gone now, I only observe games to see how each play out and update the map if something is broken or unbalanced the only recent replays i have is me beating a low level player and a TvT. I haven't been spectating games since I started my new map and going to school.

That's too bad. Then I have to go with my instincts as an experienced mapmaker. You have the right to ignore our advice, but whatever it is you think we're trying to do to you, do you think TeamLiquid's map community would last this long if we did that to everybody? You're not special here.

On August 31 2014 09:10 GeneralSezme wrote:
How does a map show inexperience, explain from this image, inexperience I have, please do so.

Ignoring aesthetics, which are also unrefined, various proportions are lacking. The main base looks small and awkwardly angled, all the paths around the first 4 bases are pretty much the same width, there should be more variance, ope spaces and chokes to exploit. Also, the first 3 or 4 bases shouldn't be so easy, there needs to be a positional game to play to take them, all you have to do is park your army at the front and have a unit or static D by the back of your natural, and boom 4 bases.There's only 1 path between you and your opponent until 2 sets of rocks get taken out, which makes scouting the main path stupidly easy, the back door isn't much use when it's only a 2nd path. Also the center bases are awkwardly placed, they disrupt the flow of the map, if you can hold it you've basically won, and it's not even a gold base. Also, the two bases in the corner, and proximity of resources to each other. Those two bases are very close to each other and the middle base, lessening the value of a positional game, since 1 position gets you 2 bases and primes a 3rd one. They also make attacks through the natural back door even more predictable because of their location. Also, taking that middle base basically blocks off that path, which again is awkward, since it blocks off an intersection of multiple paths. And the rush distance before the ice is down is far far too long. It lacks refinement, a concept, and probably even balance. So you need to stop taking our comments as attacks, and start working on being a mapmaker.
"If you find yourself feeling lost, take pride in the accuracy of your feelings." - Night Vale
GeneralSezme
Profile Joined July 2014
United States58 Posts
August 31 2014 00:55 GMT
#39
On August 31 2014 09:37 The_Templar wrote:
MAIN THE_TEMPLAR RESPONSE

Show nested quote +
On August 31 2014 07:52 GeneralSezme wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
On August 31 2014 02:44 Timetwister22 wrote:
Unless you have 250+ games on this map with at least 10 different top8 masters players of each race, then whatever games you have on this map are statistically worthless. It's good to get games on a map to get a feel for how they play, yet that never gives the whole picture. This is why bad maps can make it to ladder, as initial games show promise, but then massive amounts of games show problems. Thus, I suggest you stop pointing to the few amount of games you have on this map to back up your arguments here. Those games are statistically worthless, even if they were played on by pros.

As far as the map itself, I'm going to have to say it's not that good. It's alright for a beginner's map, but to argue this map doesn't have the issues, that several others in this thread have pointed out, is silly. Everything from the proportions, natural design, third design, and the overall super split map shows a great amount of inexperience with the editor, and overall will lead to poor quality games. That doesn't mean this map can't host good games, just means the vast majority will be 4base split map turtle fests. Your map is not the first map to have very similar features. In fact, these features that you are messing with are very standard features, in that they have been true and tried since 2011. Thus, any experienced mapmaker should be able to determine that this map will not work out well, and that is exactly what has been going on in this thread.

Please understand, that I'm not saying this to be an asshole. Tough criticism is extremely important for maps, and if the mapmaker cannot handle it, then that mapmaker simply is not meant to be a mapmaker. The people here are trying to be honest and helpful, so please do not just disregard them by saying "No you're wrong, I've seen some games on this map before." Especially don't use said excuse if you don't even provide the replays of said games. This community is trying to help you improve, but if you can't handle the criticism, then this place is probably not for you.


WHAT? I have AT LEAST 100 games observed not counting how many games I have played myself, 50 or more. You haven't even played on it and your assuming that just because the terrain layout is a certain way, means that ONE THING WILL HAPPEN EVERY GAME. I hate to say your dead wrong, BUT YOUR WRONG. I see your trying to throw sly insults about how I make maps, I'm not new to the editor. I've made some maps that I learned a lesson or two from but I'm no retard terraining and throwin 4 minerals and a gas at a base no one will take.

I haven't once told someone they are wrong, I am telling them what I have seen on my map which they have never even played, and just like you just judge it by its looks, play before you criticize it because you don't even have any game play or statistics. I don't mind the little suggestions and if i think someone is right then i change it, I have seen so many games on this map, and just because 3 people say its a turtly map means i care what they have to say? I believe this is not a turtly map, and like i have said many times most games do not even go past 3 bases, barely over 2 when players start taking their 3rd because by then one player does some sort of mid game timing that that catches the other player of guard and kills them outright. I have played mech a couple ties on this map i have only won one time, because early mutas destroy my base because it costs a lot to line your base in missile turrets. Please don't tell me i was playing mech wrong i was taking tips from the avilo.

I'm going to explain what I have seen in the past games I seen.
Most games do not go past 3 bases, the middle rocks make for exciting back and forth action, not long ago i was watching Master vs. Master ZvZ it was the most exciting ZvZ i have ever seen in my life it was about 15 minutes there was none of that bland same stuff you would see in a normal ZvZ, By the way i don't get 2 bronze league players to play on my map for me if that's why you are doubting my statistics, I always have at least diamond players or masters playing for me. How about you play 200 games on my map and tell me what happens, I'm sure your feedback will be truthful and insightful.

Your criticism is not even criticism it's just blatant insults and attacks maybe even a touch of jealousy

Don't act like your a big bad mapper because your shit map got featured by Blizzard. I would think since blizzard would have featured your map your map would have 10000 times more 5 star reviews then mine. It just goes to show the many mistakes Blizzard makes. I bet it hasn't even been played by 50 people so you shouldn't talk about statistics because you haven't even played your map yourself

I hope you enjoyed wasting an hour of your life hating on me and my innovation here, at the end of the day you are just 1 hater of many people who like and enjoy my map .




Oh geez, I was afraid of this reaction. That post was basically a summary of nearly all of the opinions of the expert mapmakers on this site and The_Templar (me). Here's where all of the problems that have to do with bad maps and good maps being nearly indistinguishable from each other come to light.

Here's how I see it. The problem with most (read: beginning or not serious) mapmakers is that they visualize what will actually happen when their map is played and they will probably share these ideas with others. This sort of process leads to one of:

a. The mapmaker playtests ideas with friends, peers, clan mates, etc. This leads to one of:
      1. There might be something wrong with the map but it's unclear.
            A. Their peers accept the ideas and don't bother experimenting with other ideas, giving the illusion the map is perfect.
                  Go to step b, or just stop
            B. Their peers reject the idea and the mapmaker makes revisions. Go back to step a. This becomes a closed loop
                  which eventually leads to a(1(A)), where no further changes are made.
      2. There's clearly something wrong with the map.
            A. There is a quick fix that is done to improve the execution.
            B. There's a large problem with the map that could be fixed with some work. Generally this is ignored or patched in the
                  least time-consuming way possible.
            C. There is a huge flaw that makes the map worthless or unplayable. This might mean:
                  I. Map is scrapped and redone: Good job, you have improved.
                  II. See a(2(B)). This is not a good way to improve because you're not really fixing a map, you're just making the
                        same map more playable.
      3. There's something wrong with the mapmaker's basic ideas.
            A. Ask an expert for help (b(1)). This is the best way to improve if you find the right experts, but prepare to be wrong.
            B. Ignore the problems and insist everything you're doing is fine. (Seriously, don't do this)
            C. Post on forums and take the advice of anyone that posts.

b. The mapmaker asks expert players or mapmakers (since the mapmakers referenced here aren't professionals, they often won't know these people very well) for help.
      1. The expert will offer possible solutions for problems you didn't know existed. This will always happen.
            A. These problems are usually important unless specified as not being so. Fix all of the problems. Not one problem at a
                  time, ALL of them.
            B. If you don't understand the problem, you will only improve if you ask about it.
      2. You will fix the problems, creating new ones that you didn't know existed. Go back to b(1) until this doesn't happen.
      3. Alternatively, try working on your own to fix the problems if you think you have a better idea. This could take two paths:
            A. Do this without listening to the expert. Why did you bother asking? Go back to b(1) if you want to improve the map.
            B. Implement the idea, while keeping in mind what the expert has said. You can do something else, but try to
                  understand why the expert advised you to take a certain path.

The problem with path a is that you always view your map as something good or bad, and always by yourself. There are individual, unrelated problems that can be patched up fairly easily. Other people give input on whether something is good or bad. Maps can not be quantified like this! While it is less likely that the majority opinion is wrong (as opposed to asking one expert), you will never actually learn anything because most people have little or no knowledge of mapmaking. Additionally, this is always a bad approach because ignoring everything except for one issue will often create other issues.

Taking path b will educate you on how these issues relate to each other (so your map features don't ruin themselves) and will actually teach you how to make maps instead of bashing your head against the same wall for eternity.
The point I am making here is listen to the damn experts!



Now, it seems you made the map similar to process a(1(A)), meaning you made a map, and even though it was wrong, you were convinced that it was a great map, with lots of interesting play, because your peers confirmed your opinions for you. Once your peers were convinced your strategical ideals were the best (after all, you are the mapmaker), it wasn't hard for them to constantly attempt to play those interesting games instead of playing the map to its strength. In fact, the play on the map probably seemed a lot like how you envisioned it in the first place.

If this is not clear, I mean to say that how you plan a map is often different than how it turns out, especially when considering how it plays out.

Intended design behind the map: Interesting, somewhat macro map with lots of options available (backdoors, alternate paths etc).
Here is a diagram labeling all the viable-looking attack paths from the bottom right to the top left in a four base vs four base scenario. These definitely look different and interesting, don't they?
+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]

Additionally, the backdoor in the natural theoretically might allow you to easily attack an opponent's base later on in the game, a move which might in turn leave you vulnerable.

Eventual design behind this map: Large macro map designed to go to late game with nothing else really viable. Easy four bases. Backdoors that are tedious but not particularly difficult to defend. Split map mechanics in the late game.
+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]

That large red oval depicts the normal positioning of a 4-base army. The arrows show that it is easy to defend any of your four bases with relative ease whereas your opponent has to go quite a lot around to attack. More importantly, you can do it all from one spot, barely moving at all = Boring gameplay. You can guard the backdoor rocks very easily.

Yeah, both sides of the argument are both there. Doesn't mean that the one you want to be there is more prominent though. In fact, it's the opposite. Your games are back and forth because the players want your map to be good and they want to play the map in the way they think they're supposed to (Same reasoning behind everyone copying professional builds), but a player defending their four bases and taking the map to a long macro game has the upper hand here as it is quite difficult to crack them.

An expert player will, nearly 100% of the time, play in this way, as it is just much better than trying to go for the back-and-forth game due to the ease of defending.



Now, I'd like to discuss your attitude in the post directly following Timetwister's post, as you seem to have not actually read the post in question.

Show nested quote +
WHAT? I have AT LEAST 100 games observed not counting how many games I have played myself, 50 or more. You haven't even played on it and your assuming that just because the terrain layout is a certain way, means that ONE THING WILL HAPPEN EVERY GAME. I hate to say your dead wrong, BUT YOUR WRONG. I see your trying to throw sly insults about how I make maps, I'm not new to the editor. I've made some maps that I learned a lesson or two from but I'm no retard terraining and throwin 4 minerals and a gas at a base no one will take.

He wants you to provide sufficient data to show that high-level players also play in the way that you think they should, and that the map is, additionally, balanced when they play in this way. However, you (what league are you anyway?) don't specify any leagues and you don't provide any replay evidence that any of this is true. Why should we think that, in practice, the map runs counter-intuitive to the theory that clearly shows that it's a turtle map, when we don't have any high-level replays on it?

Show nested quote +
I haven't once told someone they are wrong, I am telling them what I have seen on my map which they have never even played, and just like you just judge it by its looks, play before you criticize it because you don't even have any game play or statistics. I don't mind the little suggestions and if i think someone is right then i change it, I have seen so many games on this map, and just because 3 people say its a turtly map means i care what they have to say? I believe this is not a turtly map, and like i have said many times most games do not even go past 3 bases, barely over 2 when players start taking their 3rd because by then one player does some sort of mid game timing that that catches the other player of guard and kills them outright. I have played mech a couple ties on this map i have only won one time, because early mutas destroy my base because it costs a lot to line your base in missile turrets. Please don't tell me i was playing mech wrong i was taking tips from the avilo.


*sigh* This paragraph makes me think you are trolling. If you aren't, which isn't incredibly unlikely, I will break this paragraph up and explain the problem with each of your points a bit.
Show nested quote +
I haven't once told someone they are wrong

Show nested quote +
BUT YOUR WRONG. I see your trying to throw sly insults about how I make maps

Nope.

Show nested quote +
I am telling them what I have seen on my map

See the theory part of this post. Always consult an expert. Always always do so, and then listen to him/her.

Show nested quote +
and just like you just judge it by its looks, play before you criticize it because you don't even have any game play or statistics

Actually, this is why we have map overviews and screenshots of various areas, so we can judge a map by its looks. When you have a large amount of experience making melee maps, you will be able to tell how big various areas of the map are and how they all work together, for example.

Show nested quote +
play before you criticize it because you don't even have any game play or statistics

A valid point, but it isn't necessary immediately. Gameplay comes when the map has developed to the point that it can be played on.

Show nested quote +
just because 3 people say its a turtly map means i care what they have to say?

An expert (the only expert to show up in the thread to give feedback on the map) + The_Templar (me) + one other person say it's a turtle map.

Show nested quote +
most games do not even go past 3 bases

Already addressed.

Show nested quote +
one player does some sort of mid game timing that that catches the other player of guard and kills them outright

So, these play tests involve one player doing a generic, non-map-specific 2 base or so timing and killing the other player (probably due to a lack of scouting/proper macro/micro/unit composition)? What skill level did you say these guys are?

Show nested quote +
I have played mech a couple ties on this map i have only won one time, because early mutas destroy my base because it costs a lot to line your base in missile turrets.

It sounds like you are playing mech wrong if you are dying to early mutalisks nearly every game.

Show nested quote +
Please don't tell me i was playing mech wrong i was taking tips from the avilo.

Avilo excels at late game mech AFAIK, not early game mech. I would go more into why I wouldn't take all of my mech advice from avilo but I'm not starting that conversation here.

Show nested quote +
I'm going to explain what I have seen in the past games I seen.
Most games do not go past 3 bases, the middle rocks make for exciting back and forth action, not long ago i was watching Master vs. Master ZvZ it was the most exciting ZvZ i have ever seen in my life it was about 15 minutes there was none of that bland same stuff you would see in a normal ZvZ, By the way i don't get 2 bronze league players to play on my map for me if that's why you are doubting my statistics, I always have at least diamond players or masters playing for me. How about you play 200 games on my map and tell me what happens, I'm sure your feedback will be truthful and insightful.

1. In reference to the bolded part, what exactly happened in this ZvZ, and how did the map affect it at all?
2. What statistics? You haven't given us any yet.
3. I'm not playing 200 games on your map because it's not a good enough map to be played on yet.

Show nested quote +
Your criticism is not even criticism it's just blatant insults and attacks maybe even a touch of jealousy

What is he jealous of exactly? He was a finalist in TLMC 1 and at least one MotM. Why would he want to insult you anyway? As I think I said somewhere else in this post, his post was extremely similar to quite a lot of expert opinions on the map (and as you've seen, a few of them have started posting here since then). We are definitely not all insulting you. Man (or woman) up and admit you might have been wrong.

Show nested quote +
Don't act like your a big bad mapper because your shit map got featured by Blizzard. I would think since blizzard would have featured your map your map would have 10000 times more 5 star reviews then mine. It just goes to show the many mistakes Blizzard makes. I bet it hasn't even been played by 50 people so you shouldn't talk about statistics because you haven't even played your map yourself

Why do you care how good a single map of his is? He makes a lot of maps (or at least, more than 1). And you imply that his maps are obviously bad based on his comment and that blizzard must have made a mistake, which is really silly to do. Blizzard is not full of idiots.

Show nested quote +
I hope you enjoyed wasting an hour of your life hating on me and my innovation here, at the end of the day you are just 1 hater of many people who like and enjoy my map .

Believe me, I didn't enjoy it.

Thank you templar, this was the most helpful post i have gotten on this thread which was the original intent instead just arguing with everyone who don't offer any help at all just says the same thing without any facts behind it, By the way I'm a Diamond protoss, in a clan with 85 members who are diamond +
Melee map maker
Timetwister22
Profile Joined March 2011
United States538 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-08-31 01:06:42
August 31 2014 01:05 GMT
#40
On August 31 2014 09:55 GeneralSezme wrote:

Thank you templar, this was the most helpful post i have gotten on this thread which was the original intent instead just arguing with everyone who don't offer any help at all just says the same thing without any facts behind it, By the way I'm a Diamond protoss, in a clan with 85 members who are diamond +


For future reference, if you want feedback, try and handle the feedback you get in a better manner. There will be dozens of times where people will post feedback that is fairly worthless, yet instead of showing anger and calling them wrong, either just ignore that feedback or ask questions. People are much more willing to help when you are nice, and try to understand their thoughts about your work. Again, being able to handle criticism appropriately is important for every mapmaker or content creator in general.
Former ESV Mapmaker | @Timetwister22
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