protoss considered weak?

DrZygote214

2 Posts

June 27 2014 03:29 GMT

I recently came across the topic here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/brood-war/56230-training-excercise-for-starcraft

Scroll down a bit and you will see BlueIris saying: "I play protoss now though ^^ Just because they are so underused and considered weak at the higher levels"

This was a shocker for me. Can someone explain why the protoss are considered weak? btw yes this is SC BW and not SC2.

It could be dated info, of course, since that message was dated in 2007, but I was so surprised to see it I had to ask.

BigFan

TLADT24920 Posts

June 27 2014 03:39 GMT

My guess would be because PvZ was and is still considered hard to play at the higher levels and maybe there were less protoss champions in comparison to terran or zerg players which gave off the impression that protoss was weak at the higher levels? Other than that, not really sure. A couple of months prior to that, Bisu had just beaten Savior and revolutionized the PvZ matchup which makes my first statement kinda odd lol

Xiphos

Canada7507 Posts

June 27 2014 03:42 GMT

Well atm, its the Terrans that are considered the "weak" race. Sea is lazying out like no tomorrow these days, Bisu just won the SSL, and Killer is finally waking up again.

hellokitty[hk]

United States1309 Posts

June 27 2014 03:50 GMT

Protoss imba yo.

vOdToasT

Sweden2870 Posts

June 27 2014 03:53 GMT

For a very long time, StarCraft was kind of imbalanced. Compared to fighting games, it was balanced, but by modern RTS standards, it was quite imba. Match ups were closer to 6 / 4 than 5 / 5.

Protoss got the worst match up. PvT was the most balanced non mirror, but PvZ was the least balanced non mirror, in favour of Zerg. However, in 2007, Bisu owned sAviOr and popularized the foundation of modern PvZ. Today, Even PvZ openings that aren't forge expansions make use of what Bisu popularized.

That post is from 2007, back when PvZ was still controversial, even though Bisu did beat sAviOr in 2007 - but it took a while for it to sink in; for people to realize that it wasn't a fluke or an upset. As Bisu continued dominating Zergs using similar styles, people knew that StarCraft had been changed forever, for the better.

ArvickHero

10387 Posts

June 27 2014 03:55 GMT

back then most of the really good protoss players had barely begun making their mark on the scene (not to take anything away from Anytime/Reach/rA/Kingdom .....), because most good players before that chose either Terran or Zerg thanks to the bonjwas. Also maps back then were not very good for Protoss (helloooo mercury) in general, except for maps like Longinus. At the time, racial balance was considered T>Z>P=T, and the Protoss race in general were barely starting to catch up with Bisu and Stork's revolutions.

Fast forward about a year or two, after the rest of the race had caught up and thanks to more favorable maps in general, Protoss metagame strategy had advanced at an accelerated pace which would culminate in the "Six Dragons" era of 2009. Nowadays, all three races are considered relatively even with each other overall. That's the short gist of it

dRaW

Canada5744 Posts

June 27 2014 04:53 GMT

It's because zealots cost 100 minerals and zerglings cost 50minerals (for 2) and with hive tech upgrade ardenaline gland, 2 zerglings can kill a zealot. Further, a vulture costs 75minerals and makes 3 mines which can kill up to 12 protoss units. I would recommend playing another race.

Silentness

United States2821 Posts

June 27 2014 05:12 GMT

On June 27 2014 13:53 dRaW wrote:
It's because zealots cost 100 minerals and zerglings cost 50minerals (for 2) and with hive tech upgrade ardenaline gland, 2 zerglings can kill a zealot. Further, a vulture costs 75minerals and makes 3 mines which can kill up to 12 protoss units. I would recommend playing another race.

I don't know why but I dread TvP. It's a fun matchup, but it feels uphill at the beginning.

I'm constantly dreading what's going to come in the beginning. Early DT rush, reaver + zealot bulldog attempt, goon range pressure, and etc. Then after I finally get through all of the shenanigans, I realized the Protoss is already fully saturated on his third and I can't even pull off a timing push. Then I get raped by 6+ carriers because I'm too slow to scout them (when majority of the time they're hidden somewhere in a corner of the map).

Vulture mines are all great until observers are all over the map.

MaRiNe23

United States747 Posts

June 27 2014 05:17 GMT

Considered weak at the higher levels

PvZ(Before Bisu Build):
The issue with this MU had to do alot with scouting. To be honest keeping the probe alive to see what zerg is doing is very critical early to mid game in this matchup. In TvZ, terrans have the luxury to scan to check whether zerg is going muta or lurker opening however this is not the case with protoss. You have to realize the preparations for defending against either mutas or vs hydra allin is very very different.

Depending on if he is going fully all in hydras(he may even try to trick u here too and just make a couple hydras to fake u out to make u waste money on a ton of cannons then just make drones and go macro game and ull be far behind) then u must make mass cannons at ur front until u can get a templar with storm out. But if you guessed wrong then ur nat is full of 5-6+ cannons but no cannons near ur natural's min line and ur main min line and the mutas will gg you. It's way too much minerals to place cannons to prepare for both hydra or muta.

Same if u guessed wrong and prepared for muta defense then you wont have any cannons at ur front to block the wave of hydra reinforcements.

So pretty much it's either they are going to go macro game, hydra bust,or muta. And you as protoss MUST scout what the zerg is doing and this is where protoss players was having trouble before Bisu[Shield].

PvT:
To put it simply. Terran mech 3-3 army is unstoppable in Starcraft Broodwar whether it's vs zerg or toss. The 3-3 goliaths will rip through protoss carrier interecepts, obviously a frontal assault doesn't work vs a setup 3-3 terran army, so your only option is to recall.....but honestly if the terran is just sitting behind mass turrets+mines in his base with vessel for emp(we're talking higher levels here where they can do all that mutltiasking) then even that can only go so far..... Now I'm not saying it's impossible to win a pvt..(i acutally think even with this tvp is still super super hard) but the 3-3 terran mech army is typically what protoss players have trouble dealing with as the game goes longer and into late game.

As u can see by now, both toss matchups have something that makes it hard for them to win at higher levels.

Just watch flash's tvp games that are longer than 15 min to know what i mean. Try to imagine it from the toss's point of view and u wont be able to breathe cuz his defense is impenetrable. I remember in one of flash's games the commentator literally said that flash's games may take a while to finish but at least he won't lose.

tldr; PvZ was harder to scout what zerg was doing pre bisu. PvT the 3-3 terran mech army pwnz.
ICECREAM: terran 3-3 mech army vs dragoons. plague on toss army in pvz.<---- toss weak??

So read what I wrote for those two matchups carefully as those are pretty much what makes protoss weaker at HIGHER LEVELS.

vOdToasT

Sweden2870 Posts

June 27 2014 05:19 GMT

#10

On June 27 2014 12:42 Xiphos wrote:
Well atm, its the Terrans that are considered the "weak" race. Sea is lazying out like no tomorrow these days, Bisu just won the SSL, and Killer is finally waking up again.

This is nothing out of the ordinary fluctuations of Brood War
Terran will dominate again

Probemicro

3708 Posts

June 27 2014 05:34 GMT

#11

On June 27 2014 14:19 vOdToasT wrote:

Show nested quote +

This is nothing out of the ordinary fluctuations of Brood War
Terran will dominate again

waiting for Flash to return to his true roots.

iamho

United States3347 Posts

June 27 2014 05:49 GMT

#12

Because cheese and rush builds are more effective against protoss than other races (at the highest levels, the opposite is true at lower levels), plus pvp is much more luck-based than tvt or zvz. So for a protoss player, skill doesn't translate to wins as much as it does for terran and zerg players.

Vasoline73

United States7817 Posts

June 27 2014 05:54 GMT

#13

If PvT seemed imba at the highest level it was because Flash dominated so hard.

. I miss PL/OSL BW

iFU.pauline

France1660 Posts

June 27 2014 05:56 GMT

#14

Protoss considered weak? Terran weak? What the fuck am I reading? -_-

vOdToasT

Sweden2870 Posts

June 27 2014 06:00 GMT

#15

On June 27 2014 14:56 iFU.pauline wrote:
Protoss considered weak? Terran weak? What the fuck am I reading? -_-

In the past, ZvP was Zerg favoured and you know it

GeckoXp

Germany2016 Posts

June 27 2014 06:35 GMT

#16

I remember how awesome it was to play vs lurker ling contains without LL.

It was really making me more aggressive than usual after some time.

This is entirely unrelated to the question though.

DrZygote214

2 Posts

June 27 2014 06:43 GMT

#17

On June 27 2014 13:53 dRaW wrote:
Further, a vulture costs 75minerals and makes 3 mines which can kill up to 12 protoss units. I would recommend playing another race.

Yes, I've always thought vults are very imba against toss. Only 75 minerals and NO gas??? they should cost 25 gas imo. You get range, you get huge hits against small units (zlots), and you get mines after a very cheap upgrade. They r also the fastest unit in the whole game after another very cheap upgrade, and even without it, are still decently fast even compared to zerg.

Speaking of which, I can think of 2 other things that oddly enough do not cost any gas. First is the protoss shuttle: 200 mins and no gas? hmmmm. Isn't the dropship like 100/100? Can't see how that's balanced. The other is the nydus canal, only 150 mins and no gas. Not sure what Blizzard was thinking there either.

Anyway, thanx for the explanations. Seems like for PvZ, the Bisu build is the only way to go, if for no other reason than scouting. But if you don't mind one last question along more general lines...

Does anyone truly believe that this game is highly balanced? Is it really possible that, in balance, all buildings and units cost an even multiple of 25 mins/gas instead of something more accurate like maybe 146/90 for tanks? (just as a random example) Also, with fixed costs, wouldn't only one style of map be perfectly balanced? assuming that's true, then a different map style, maybe with shorter rush distances, would be imba because it changes the assumed perfect balance of the standard map.

Also, i know that prices are not the only question when it comes to balance. It's proly just as much about APM costs, which are high for mines for example. But one thing at a time.

Glioburd

France1911 Posts

June 27 2014 07:20 GMT

#18

On June 27 2014 15:43 DrZygote214 wrote:

Show nested quote +

[...] Only 75 minerals and NO gas??? they should cost 25 gas imo.

lol, please.
Protoss are indeed the race who have made the less victory in individual tournament, but like it has been said, Bisu (thanks Daezang) found a solution for the most imbalanced match up in 2007.
At the end of BW, it was the PvT which seemed to be hard for the Protoss. At pro level, the Terran users mastered this match up (TvP is still the hardest match up at amator level imo). But when you see JangBi winning the two last OSL, I can't really say anything on this game. 14 years of metagame, 3 totally different races, and still an excellent ratio. The lack of results for the protoss is more a question of bad luck than anything else imo. It also really depended of the maps played.

iFU.pauline

France1660 Posts

June 27 2014 07:20 GMT

#19

On June 27 2014 15:00 vOdToasT wrote:

Show nested quote +

In the past, ZvP was Zerg favoured and you know it

What past are you talking about?

99, 2003, 2008, 2011? -_-

The only moment I recall z v p being a "zerg favored" match up was the time, fast expand didn't exist. And it was so far in the past I cannot even remember when -_-

On top of that the end game is always Protoss favored.

and if zerg dominated protoss at some point, it's not because the match up is zerg favored, it is because zerg progamers were simply better at playing the game than protoss progamers -_- that makes more sense to me than a broken match up.

tmdtmdtmd

9 Posts

June 27 2014 07:48 GMT

#20

Protoss players tend to cry because they're used to 1a2a3a and win at low level, they don't know how to micro, only the best, like bisu pay attention to micro, then toss becomes imba, it's much easier to micro when your units take a million hits to die.
Zealot is the most imba shit (except in pvp) 100 min, 160 hp, a-click to victory.
PvT is so easy, just recall on factories gg

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