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On March 01 2014 01:00 Sent. wrote:
Honestly I think Crimea should return to Mother Russia. If I'm not mistaken most of people there consider themselves Russians and they're historically closer to Russia. I think it's a bit unjust to force them to live under Ukrainian flag just because of Khrushchev's crazy whim. On the other hand it would be beneficial for Russia and what's good for Russia is usually bad for Poland so I wouldn't be very happy if that actually happened.
I'm sure the Tatars would be delighted... And the ethnic Ukrainians living there. There are ways in which these things are done, top-down decisions on behalf of the people living there is not one of them.
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A lot of the posts regarding the US in this thread are unneeded. I don't think the thread should be about pointing fingers or trying to decide who is worst - be it US or Russia. Both US and Russia have a long history after the WWII of actively trying to establish or overthrow governments in other countries.
Better come with something substantial about US involvement than posting random rants.
I don't exactly know what is going on in Ukraine, I'm trying to understand but for me it's hard. I'm very worried about eventual Russian involvement though.
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On March 01 2014 00:39 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2014 00:37 xDaunt wrote:On March 01 2014 00:13 Gorsameth wrote:
Putin is playing a very dangerous game here. Gambling that the West doesn't want to risk an armed conflict over the Ukraine.
Assuming he actually go's trough it it that is.
Be a good boy Putin and don't start WW3 on my birthday.... It all depends upon Obama. Unfortunately, because Obama has been so weak on the foreign policy stage to this point, Putin may not take Obama seriously. As for an American/NATO response, I'd probably support the creation and enforcement of a no-fly zone over the Ukraine along with some ancillary naval support (like submarines). I don't think anyone is interested in a more generalized conflict with Russia. I would say this is more in the hands of the EU then the US. Cant expect them to deal with everything, esp when its in our own backyard. To bad our leaders are spineless enough for me to actually see them doing nothing.
Yeah, ideally the US wouldn't have to get involved, but I don't see the EU doing anything without full NATO (ie US) support. Minimally, the EU will want the US to guarantee air superiority.
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On March 01 2014 00:43 PaleMan wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2014 00:37 xDaunt wrote:On March 01 2014 00:13 Gorsameth wrote:
Putin is playing a very dangerous game here. Gambling that the West doesn't want to risk an armed conflict over the Ukraine.
Assuming he actually go's trough it it that is.
Be a good boy Putin and don't start WW3 on my birthday.... As for an American/NATO response, I'd probably support the creation and enforcement of a no-fly zone over the Ukraine along with some ancillary naval support (like submarines). I don't think anyone is interested in a more generalized conflict with Russia. ![[image loading]](http://cs607522.vk.me/v607522244/1ee7/-xE7AUIvSlI.jpg)
In fairness, if we came to the Ukraine, we'd be coming to kill Russians, not Ukrainians.
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RL is no strategy game...
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On March 01 2014 01:05 Ghanburighan wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2014 01:00 Sent. wrote:
Honestly I think Crimea should return to Mother Russia. If I'm not mistaken most of people there consider themselves Russians and they're historically closer to Russia. I think it's a bit unjust to force them to live under Ukrainian flag just because of Khrushchev's crazy whim. On the other hand it would be beneficial for Russia and what's good for Russia is usually bad for Poland so I wouldn't be very happy if that actually happened. I'm sure the Tatars would be delighted... And the ethnic Ukrainians living there. There are ways in which these things are done, top-down decisions on behalf of the people living there is not one of them.
Obviously I was thinking about referendum in democratic conditions and I'm aware that it would be really hard to actually make it happen. I just think that the bond between Crimea and Ukraine is artificial. Once again I'd like to underline that I'm not trying to support Russia here. I only wanted to say that separatist movement in Crimea isn't completely baseless.
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On March 01 2014 01:25 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2014 00:43 PaleMan wrote:On March 01 2014 00:37 xDaunt wrote:On March 01 2014 00:13 Gorsameth wrote:
Putin is playing a very dangerous game here. Gambling that the West doesn't want to risk an armed conflict over the Ukraine.
Assuming he actually go's trough it it that is.
Be a good boy Putin and don't start WW3 on my birthday.... As for an American/NATO response, I'd probably support the creation and enforcement of a no-fly zone over the Ukraine along with some ancillary naval support (like submarines). I don't think anyone is interested in a more generalized conflict with Russia. In fairness, if we came to the Ukraine, we'd be coming to kill Russians, not Ukrainians.
If world goes utterly retarded and that hapens all out war is unavoidable..
even if my faith in humanity is minimal no one can be that stupid. Thou war is usually good for economy so who knows.
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If war is good for economy why is US bankrupt
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On March 01 2014 01:39 zezamer wrote:
If war is good for economy why is US bankrupt
The US isn't bankrupt.
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On March 01 2014 01:36 Bore wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2014 01:25 xDaunt wrote:On March 01 2014 00:43 PaleMan wrote:On March 01 2014 00:37 xDaunt wrote:On March 01 2014 00:13 Gorsameth wrote:
Putin is playing a very dangerous game here. Gambling that the West doesn't want to risk an armed conflict over the Ukraine.
Assuming he actually go's trough it it that is.
Be a good boy Putin and don't start WW3 on my birthday.... As for an American/NATO response, I'd probably support the creation and enforcement of a no-fly zone over the Ukraine along with some ancillary naval support (like submarines). I don't think anyone is interested in a more generalized conflict with Russia. In fairness, if we came to the Ukraine, we'd be coming to kill Russians, not Ukrainians. If world goes utterly retarded and that hapens all out war is unavoidable.. even if my faith in humanity is minimal no one can be that stupid. Thou war is usually good for economy so who knows.
The question is Does Putin put boots on the ground in the Ukraine, even if it is only to help a part of it secede.
And Does the West move its military to stop it.
If both are Yes then indeed an armed conflict isn't out of the realm of possibility.
Hopefully Putin is smart and doesn't interfere directly .
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On March 01 2014 01:41 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2014 01:36 Bore wrote:On March 01 2014 01:25 xDaunt wrote:On March 01 2014 00:43 PaleMan wrote:On March 01 2014 00:37 xDaunt wrote:On March 01 2014 00:13 Gorsameth wrote:
Putin is playing a very dangerous game here. Gambling that the West doesn't want to risk an armed conflict over the Ukraine.
Assuming he actually go's trough it it that is.
Be a good boy Putin and don't start WW3 on my birthday.... As for an American/NATO response, I'd probably support the creation and enforcement of a no-fly zone over the Ukraine along with some ancillary naval support (like submarines). I don't think anyone is interested in a more generalized conflict with Russia. In fairness, if we came to the Ukraine, we'd be coming to kill Russians, not Ukrainians. If world goes utterly retarded and that hapens all out war is unavoidable.. even if my faith in humanity is minimal no one can be that stupid. Thou war is usually good for economy so who knows. The question is Does Putin put boots on the ground in the Ukraine, even if it is only to help a part of it secede. And Does the West move its military to stop it. If both are Yes then indeed an armed conflict isn't out of the realm of possibility. Hopefully Putin is smart and doesn't interfere directly .
Do you understand what war between Nuclear powers means? I'm sure the leaders of all the countries in the world do.
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On March 01 2014 01:44 zeo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2014 01:41 Gorsameth wrote:On March 01 2014 01:36 Bore wrote:On March 01 2014 01:25 xDaunt wrote:On March 01 2014 00:43 PaleMan wrote:On March 01 2014 00:37 xDaunt wrote:On March 01 2014 00:13 Gorsameth wrote:
Putin is playing a very dangerous game here. Gambling that the West doesn't want to risk an armed conflict over the Ukraine.
Assuming he actually go's trough it it that is.
Be a good boy Putin and don't start WW3 on my birthday.... As for an American/NATO response, I'd probably support the creation and enforcement of a no-fly zone over the Ukraine along with some ancillary naval support (like submarines). I don't think anyone is interested in a more generalized conflict with Russia. In fairness, if we came to the Ukraine, we'd be coming to kill Russians, not Ukrainians. If world goes utterly retarded and that hapens all out war is unavoidable.. even if my faith in humanity is minimal no one can be that stupid. Thou war is usually good for economy so who knows. The question is Does Putin put boots on the ground in the Ukraine, even if it is only to help a part of it secede. And Does the West move its military to stop it. If both are Yes then indeed an armed conflict isn't out of the realm of possibility. Hopefully Putin is smart and doesn't interfere directly . Do you understand what war between Nuclear powers means? I'm sure the leaders of all the countries in the world do.
I'm fairly certain that you don't. Belligerency is not a uniform characteristic, not even when nukes come into play.
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On March 01 2014 01:44 zeo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2014 01:41 Gorsameth wrote:On March 01 2014 01:36 Bore wrote:On March 01 2014 01:25 xDaunt wrote:On March 01 2014 00:43 PaleMan wrote:On March 01 2014 00:37 xDaunt wrote:On March 01 2014 00:13 Gorsameth wrote:
Putin is playing a very dangerous game here. Gambling that the West doesn't want to risk an armed conflict over the Ukraine.
Assuming he actually go's trough it it that is.
Be a good boy Putin and don't start WW3 on my birthday.... As for an American/NATO response, I'd probably support the creation and enforcement of a no-fly zone over the Ukraine along with some ancillary naval support (like submarines). I don't think anyone is interested in a more generalized conflict with Russia. In fairness, if we came to the Ukraine, we'd be coming to kill Russians, not Ukrainians. If world goes utterly retarded and that hapens all out war is unavoidable.. even if my faith in humanity is minimal no one can be that stupid. Thou war is usually good for economy so who knows. The question is Does Putin put boots on the ground in the Ukraine, even if it is only to help a part of it secede. And Does the West move its military to stop it. If both are Yes then indeed an armed conflict isn't out of the realm of possibility. Hopefully Putin is smart and doesn't interfere directly . Do you understand what war between Nuclear powers means? I'm sure the leaders of all the countries in the world do.
Armed conflict doesn't need to mean all out war but yes I do realize what it means, Thats what makes Putin's actions so dangerous. He's playing a game of chicken with Nuclear war as a possible outcome.
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On March 01 2014 01:46 farvacola wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2014 01:44 zeo wrote:On March 01 2014 01:41 Gorsameth wrote:On March 01 2014 01:36 Bore wrote:On March 01 2014 01:25 xDaunt wrote:On March 01 2014 00:43 PaleMan wrote:On March 01 2014 00:37 xDaunt wrote:On March 01 2014 00:13 Gorsameth wrote:
Putin is playing a very dangerous game here. Gambling that the West doesn't want to risk an armed conflict over the Ukraine.
Assuming he actually go's trough it it that is.
Be a good boy Putin and don't start WW3 on my birthday.... As for an American/NATO response, I'd probably support the creation and enforcement of a no-fly zone over the Ukraine along with some ancillary naval support (like submarines). I don't think anyone is interested in a more generalized conflict with Russia. In fairness, if we came to the Ukraine, we'd be coming to kill Russians, not Ukrainians. If world goes utterly retarded and that hapens all out war is unavoidable.. even if my faith in humanity is minimal no one can be that stupid. Thou war is usually good for economy so who knows. The question is Does Putin put boots on the ground in the Ukraine, even if it is only to help a part of it secede. And Does the West move its military to stop it. If both are Yes then indeed an armed conflict isn't out of the realm of possibility. Hopefully Putin is smart and doesn't interfere directly . Do you understand what war between Nuclear powers means? I'm sure the leaders of all the countries in the world do. I'm fairly certain that you don't. Belligerency is not a uniform characteristic, not even when nukes come into play.
How many people in Europe and the US (I'm talking about the public, the voters) would want their governments to start WWIII over Ukraine? Not even talking about China getting involved, just Russia.
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On March 01 2014 01:44 zeo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2014 01:41 Gorsameth wrote:On March 01 2014 01:36 Bore wrote:On March 01 2014 01:25 xDaunt wrote:On March 01 2014 00:43 PaleMan wrote:On March 01 2014 00:37 xDaunt wrote:On March 01 2014 00:13 Gorsameth wrote:
Putin is playing a very dangerous game here. Gambling that the West doesn't want to risk an armed conflict over the Ukraine.
Assuming he actually go's trough it it that is.
Be a good boy Putin and don't start WW3 on my birthday.... As for an American/NATO response, I'd probably support the creation and enforcement of a no-fly zone over the Ukraine along with some ancillary naval support (like submarines). I don't think anyone is interested in a more generalized conflict with Russia. In fairness, if we came to the Ukraine, we'd be coming to kill Russians, not Ukrainians. If world goes utterly retarded and that hapens all out war is unavoidable.. even if my faith in humanity is minimal no one can be that stupid. Thou war is usually good for economy so who knows. The question is Does Putin put boots on the ground in the Ukraine, even if it is only to help a part of it secede. And Does the West move its military to stop it. If both are Yes then indeed an armed conflict isn't out of the realm of possibility. Hopefully Putin is smart and doesn't interfere directly . Do you understand what war between Nuclear powers means? I'm sure the leaders of all the countries in the world do.
The only reason why the West would get involved in the Ukraine militarily is if Russia invaded, and even then, I can see the West doing nothing about it. Putin's calculating right now what the probability of Western -- particularly American -- military involvement is. What worries me is that he is going to conclude from recent events that Obama is weak and unlikely to interfere. Though Putin may not be wrong with this calculation, the danger here is obvious.
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On March 01 2014 01:49 zeo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2014 01:46 farvacola wrote:On March 01 2014 01:44 zeo wrote:On March 01 2014 01:41 Gorsameth wrote:On March 01 2014 01:36 Bore wrote:On March 01 2014 01:25 xDaunt wrote:On March 01 2014 00:43 PaleMan wrote:On March 01 2014 00:37 xDaunt wrote:On March 01 2014 00:13 Gorsameth wrote:
Putin is playing a very dangerous game here. Gambling that the West doesn't want to risk an armed conflict over the Ukraine.
Assuming he actually go's trough it it that is.
Be a good boy Putin and don't start WW3 on my birthday.... As for an American/NATO response, I'd probably support the creation and enforcement of a no-fly zone over the Ukraine along with some ancillary naval support (like submarines). I don't think anyone is interested in a more generalized conflict with Russia. In fairness, if we came to the Ukraine, we'd be coming to kill Russians, not Ukrainians. If world goes utterly retarded and that hapens all out war is unavoidable.. even if my faith in humanity is minimal no one can be that stupid. Thou war is usually good for economy so who knows. The question is Does Putin put boots on the ground in the Ukraine, even if it is only to help a part of it secede. And Does the West move its military to stop it. If both are Yes then indeed an armed conflict isn't out of the realm of possibility. Hopefully Putin is smart and doesn't interfere directly . Do you understand what war between Nuclear powers means? I'm sure the leaders of all the countries in the world do. I'm fairly certain that you don't. Belligerency is not a uniform characteristic, not even when nukes come into play. How many people in Europe and the US (I'm talking about the public, the voters) would want their governments to start WWIII over Ukraine? Not even talking about China getting involved, just Russia.
Sooner or later, Russia is going to force an international conflict in which their overall weakness as a dwindling world power is effectively proven before the eyes of Putin or whomever succeeds him. Might be now, might be in 10 years, might be in 30, but it will happen. And it won't spell the end of the world.
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On March 01 2014 01:49 zeo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2014 01:46 farvacola wrote:On March 01 2014 01:44 zeo wrote:On March 01 2014 01:41 Gorsameth wrote:On March 01 2014 01:36 Bore wrote:On March 01 2014 01:25 xDaunt wrote:On March 01 2014 00:43 PaleMan wrote:On March 01 2014 00:37 xDaunt wrote:On March 01 2014 00:13 Gorsameth wrote:
Putin is playing a very dangerous game here. Gambling that the West doesn't want to risk an armed conflict over the Ukraine.
Assuming he actually go's trough it it that is.
Be a good boy Putin and don't start WW3 on my birthday.... As for an American/NATO response, I'd probably support the creation and enforcement of a no-fly zone over the Ukraine along with some ancillary naval support (like submarines). I don't think anyone is interested in a more generalized conflict with Russia. In fairness, if we came to the Ukraine, we'd be coming to kill Russians, not Ukrainians. If world goes utterly retarded and that hapens all out war is unavoidable.. even if my faith in humanity is minimal no one can be that stupid. Thou war is usually good for economy so who knows. The question is Does Putin put boots on the ground in the Ukraine, even if it is only to help a part of it secede. And Does the West move its military to stop it. If both are Yes then indeed an armed conflict isn't out of the realm of possibility. Hopefully Putin is smart and doesn't interfere directly . Do you understand what war between Nuclear powers means? I'm sure the leaders of all the countries in the world do. I'm fairly certain that you don't. Belligerency is not a uniform characteristic, not even when nukes come into play. How many people in Europe and the US (I'm talking about the public, the voters) would want their governments to start WWIII over Ukraine? Not even talking about China getting involved, just Russia.
Yep, so you better write your letter to Putin instead of Western leaders. He's the one who's going to start this if anyone does.
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Why is this discussion even happening in this thread? Oh, right, because Zeo trolled you again.
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starting a nuclear war for ukraine (no offense) seems to be highly over exagerated, i don't think leaders (more, their advisor) are that stupid
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On February 27 2014 23:25 Ghanburighan wrote:
Actually, what am I doing still in this thread. Goodbye.
Goodbye indeed.
On March 01 2014 01:52 farvacola wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2014 01:49 zeo wrote:On March 01 2014 01:46 farvacola wrote:On March 01 2014 01:44 zeo wrote:On March 01 2014 01:41 Gorsameth wrote:On March 01 2014 01:36 Bore wrote:On March 01 2014 01:25 xDaunt wrote:On March 01 2014 00:43 PaleMan wrote:On March 01 2014 00:37 xDaunt wrote:On March 01 2014 00:13 Gorsameth wrote:
Putin is playing a very dangerous game here. Gambling that the West doesn't want to risk an armed conflict over the Ukraine.
Assuming he actually go's trough it it that is.
Be a good boy Putin and don't start WW3 on my birthday.... As for an American/NATO response, I'd probably support the creation and enforcement of a no-fly zone over the Ukraine along with some ancillary naval support (like submarines). I don't think anyone is interested in a more generalized conflict with Russia. In fairness, if we came to the Ukraine, we'd be coming to kill Russians, not Ukrainians. If world goes utterly retarded and that hapens all out war is unavoidable.. even if my faith in humanity is minimal no one can be that stupid. Thou war is usually good for economy so who knows. The question is Does Putin put boots on the ground in the Ukraine, even if it is only to help a part of it secede. And Does the West move its military to stop it. If both are Yes then indeed an armed conflict isn't out of the realm of possibility. Hopefully Putin is smart and doesn't interfere directly . Do you understand what war between Nuclear powers means? I'm sure the leaders of all the countries in the world do. I'm fairly certain that you don't. Belligerency is not a uniform characteristic, not even when nukes come into play. How many people in Europe and the US (I'm talking about the public, the voters) would want their governments to start WWIII over Ukraine? Not even talking about China getting involved, just Russia. Sooner or later, Russia is going to force an international conflict in which their overall weakness as a dwindling world power is effectively proven before the eyes of Putin or whomever succeeds him. Might be now, might be in 10 years, might be in 30, but it will happen. And it won't spell the end of the world.
Russia will not start a war, America will not start a war. You have been reading too much cold war propaganda. There is no infrastructure in ether block to support the ground invasion that would be necessary to knock the other guy out.
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EPT
