EPTAre these details that should be taken into consideration, or are you talking about others that we missed?
You don't need to lie to misinform. As a lawyer, i'm sure you're well aware of that.
US Politics Mega-thread - Page 9841
| Forum Index > Closed |
Read the rules in the OP before posting, please. In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. | ||
|
m4ini
4215 Posts
Are these details that should be taken into consideration, or are you talking about others that we missed? You don't need to lie to misinform. As a lawyer, i'm sure you're well aware of that. | ||
|
Doodsmack
United States7224 Posts
| ||
|
NewSunshine
United States5938 Posts
On February 03 2018 10:58 m4ini wrote: I mean.. Details. Are we talking details like Page being on the FBIs radar in 2013 already, these kinda things? Or more that he again popped up in 2015 when the FBI listened in on two russian operatives mentioning to recruit Page? Are these details that should be taken into consideration, or are you talking about others that we missed? You don't need to lie to misinform. As a lawyer, i'm sure you're well aware of that. But you see, clearly the FBI had no reason whatsoever to put surveillance on him. Definitely not anything like national security. Also lying by omission is assuredly a thing. But I guess for the purposes of this discussion it just isn't anymore. | ||
|
WolfintheSheep
Canada14127 Posts
On February 03 2018 10:44 xDaunt wrote: You should read the memo again, because you're clearly missing the point. The memo actually states facts suggesting that the FISA application was defective when it was made, notably 1) that the basis of the FISA application was the dossier, 2) the dossier had been corroborated at the time of the application, and 3) the FBI withheld information showing that dossier was not reliable and potentially misrepresented the dossier to the FISA court. 1) Extensively does not mean entirely, and doesn't necessarily mean majority either. Even by language the memo says there was non-dossier evidence. 2) The memo does not claim that the FISA application stated that the dossier had been corroborated entirely. Nor did it have to be. The reviewing committee had to assess if there was justification to allow surveillance for further investigation, not determine guilt. 3) Nothing in the memo suggests that the dossier, or Steele's investigations, was unreliable. It says Steele was terminated as an FBI source for contacting media, not for providing unreliable information. It suggests Steele had a personal bias against Trump in the middle, or tail-end, of his investigation (in a Sep interview). And, of course, says he was paid by Trump's opposition. None of which contests the evidence in the FISA application, only the source. | ||
|
cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
On February 03 2018 10:34 WolfintheSheep wrote: Not many people have even suggested that the memo is false. As has been said repeatedly, the memo does not attempt to invalidate any of the probable cause provided by the application. We don't know what the evidence is, but by omission Nunes does not contest the validity of any of those details. His entire issue is that the bias of a private investigator paid to investigate someone was not disclosed. The memo is a "nothingburger" because none of the accusations actually invalidate the FISA application or approval. I don't think its nothing, but we all should realize it was sold by Republicans as something that it is not. The actual meat of the memo is him publicly complaining about how mid-high level DOJ and FBI staff are impeding his investigation. The stuff about Steel is interesting, but is just confirmation of what we suspected since early 2017. The whole purpose was to make public a document that will get a lot of eyeballs that gets him more leverage over the FBI for his investigation. This is why there was such opposition to its release from the FBI despite it containing nothing that would affect any agents or operations. | ||
|
m4ini
4215 Posts
1) Extensively does not mean entirely, and doesn't necessarily mean majority either. Even by language the memo says there was non-dossier evidence. It says essential in the memo, which is even weaker, because it's down to Nunes' opinion that it was "essential". To be clear, to get a warrant for a guy that was twice on the radar already, once of which was by being mentioned by two known russian operatives as a potential recruit, isn't actually that hard. That's why republicans conveniently leave that part out. | ||
|
Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On February 03 2018 10:58 m4ini wrote: I mean.. Details. Are we talking details like Page being on the FBIs radar in 2013 already, these kinda things? Or more that he again popped up in 2015 when the FBI listened in on two russian operatives mentioning to recruit Page? Are these details that should be taken into consideration, or are you talking about others that we missed? You don't need to lie to misinform. As a lawyer, i'm sure you're well aware of that. I feel the memo claims that the FBI abused the FISA powers are countered by a single interview with Carter Page. Once is he on their radar and they heard speak word, it would have been negligent to not have a FISA request primed and in the chamber. | ||
|
m4ini
4215 Posts
On February 03 2018 11:09 Plansix wrote: I feel the memo claims that the FBI abused the FISA powers are countered by a single interview with Carter Page. Once is he on their radar and they heard speak word, it would have been negligent to not have a FISA request primed and in the chamber. My edit of the post earlier. To be clear, to get a warrant for a guy that was twice on the radar already, once of which was by being mentioned by two known russian operatives as a potential recruit, isn't actually that hard. That's why republicans conveniently leave that part out. | ||
|
Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On February 03 2018 11:07 cLutZ wrote: I don't think its nothing, but we all should realize it was sold by Republicans as something that it is not. The actual meat of the memo is him publicly complaining about how mid-high level DOJ and FBI staff are impeding his investigation. The stuff about Steel is interesting, but is just confirmation of what we suspected since early 2017. The whole purpose was to make public a document that will get a lot of eyeballs that gets him more leverage over the FBI for his investigation. This is why there was such opposition to its release from the FBI despite it containing nothing that would affect any agents or operations. Nunes isn’t former law enforcement and clearly doesn’t want to wait for an investigation from the IG, which would be the correct route to take if he through there was FISA abuse. And he was supposed to have recused himself, but he never did. Edit: Yeah, Carter Page has to be one of the dumbest people involved with Trump. And it’s a competitive field. | ||
|
iamthedave
England2814 Posts
On February 03 2018 10:07 m4ini wrote: The memo is smaller than trumps hands even. Woh there, cowboy. Let's not get crazy. We get to that level and we risk causing a singularity. | ||
|
hunts
United States2113 Posts
On February 03 2018 11:20 iamthedave wrote: Woh there, cowboy. Let's not get crazy. We get to that level and we risk causing a singularity. Would you say that CERN wants to investigate trump clapping? | ||
|
m4ini
4215 Posts
On February 03 2018 11:20 hunts wrote: Would you say that CERN wants to investigate trump clapping? Don't trigger people with the "i" word. | ||
|
Mohdoo
United States15743 Posts
| ||
|
warding
Portugal2396 Posts
| ||
|
cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
On February 03 2018 11:12 Plansix wrote: Nunes isn’t former law enforcement and clearly doesn’t want to wait for an investigation from the IG, which would be the correct route to take if he through there was FISA abuse. And he was supposed to have recused himself, but he never did. Edit: Yeah, Carter Page has to be one of the dumbest people involved with Trump. And it’s a competitive field. The "Nunes recused himself" is a pet peeve of mine because its not true. A series of unfounded ethics complaints about him were filed and he temporarily stepped down until the Congressional Ethics Office said those allegations were unfounded, which he always maintained. And I am not a Nunes guy. I Would prefer if he resigned and Gowdy or Rooney ran it, as they are better human beings. | ||
|
Introvert
United States5001 Posts
On February 03 2018 11:33 warding wrote: I like how everyone pronounces Nunes as if it were a Hispanic Nuñez. Hopefully it'll continue to conceal the fact he is of Portuguese descent. (It's pronounced Noonsh or, more accurately, Noonzh). I think he pronounces it "new-ness." Quick googling tells me that and I've heard it before. edit: in fact it's in that video I posted a page or two ago. | ||
|
Taelshin
Canada420 Posts
edit: I do think it looks pretty bad, and calls in to question the entire trump Russia nightmare. | ||
|
Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On February 03 2018 11:34 cLutZ wrote: The "Nunes recused himself" is a pet peeve of mine because its not true. A series of unfounded ethics complaints about him were filed and he temporarily stepped down until the Congressional Ethics Office said those allegations were unfounded, which he always maintained. And I am not a Nunes guy. I Would prefer if he resigned and Gowdy or Rooney ran it, as they are better human beings. He made it seem like he did to duck criticism and press coverage. I don't trust the guy as far as I can throw him. He seems to have a disdain for process and I think he really buys this whole "Deep State" bullshit. He sees the FBI's denials as obstruction, but its an active investigation. If there is a real complaint about a FISA warrant, it should go to the inspector general and be handled by a bipartisan group. But he doesn't want to do that, hence the memo. On February 03 2018 11:45 Taelshin wrote: If this memo is a "nothing burger" to quote some people here, why did the dems fight so hard to not let it get released? ill admit its not an everything silver bullet kryptonite burger, just wondering what the scare was. Because there is a system in place for these types of issues and this memo isn't it. FISA warrants are secret and they built a whole system to allow congress to review them if they thought there was abuse. But its also secret and requires bipartisan review. Nunes didn't want to do that and just dumped the memo into the public for his own reasons. Edit; The memo specific states it has nothing to do with the Russian investigation being started. You may want to re-read it. | ||
|
zlefin
United States7689 Posts
On February 03 2018 11:45 Taelshin wrote: If this memo is a "nothing burger" to quote some people here, why did the dems fight so hard to not let it get released? ill admit its not an everything silver bullet kryptonite burger, just wondering what the scare was. because they knew that a lot of people would believe it even though it's nonsense. wha'ts so surprising about people trying to prevent a willful misinformation campaign? it's also damaging to the institutions of government to politicize things in this way. do you need more explanation, or is that sufficient? | ||
|
Leporello
United States2845 Posts
Carter Page was confident last October that Congress, our actual Congress, was going to purvey something that would exonerate him. To have knowledge about the FISA warrant beyond what was being reported, and to even elude to this memo coming through this ridiculous process, suggests he is in regular contact with GOP reps or their staff. I honestly think it's likely there are multiple GOP caught in this surveillance. Why would they ignore the DoJ and FBI, overrule their requests, deny them access, to release this memo... just to protect this goofball Carter Page? A desperate defense of Trump? The only thing that actually makes any fucking sense to me is the theory that there are more than Trump implicated by Carter Page. Because Carter Page has a big fucking mouth. But that's the thing, he's so unreliable, he could just be talking shit. | ||
| ||
