EPTBut I can’t call voting for Trump identity politics or racially toxic? And suggesting that the Republican party has a long history of racism is bad? Because that would be calling all Republicans racist.
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
But I can’t call voting for Trump identity politics or racially toxic? And suggesting that the Republican party has a long history of racism is bad? Because that would be calling all Republicans racist. | ||
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brian
United States9625 Posts
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GreenHorizons
United States23305 Posts
On September 16 2017 06:24 Danglars wrote: No need to speed along. Why don't we pause and consider why you feel the need to whitewash ANTIFA and consider their bad acts really the responsibility of black-bloc? They've used violence to suppress the free speech of speakers at Berkeley. They fucking have their own Wikipedia article. But you're trying to make the distinction when I say violence against right-wing and conservative speakers, that's black bloc ... counter-factually. So umm instead of trying to slide in "anarchist" as a proper label, how about you don't dodge the issue and say ANTIFA tactics are wrong. They'll step right up and tell you in interviews they view violence against these groups as justified. It's no use whitewashing. Also, you've repeatedly held yourself up as the sole determiner of whether or not somebody has sufficiently supported your causes to dodge the "not interested in the travails of the black man" tag. Repeatedly. I quoted it in this quote train. You volunteer one inconvenient fact, as Falling did, and it's White Fragility. Well, I suggest you come to terms with inconvenient facts rather than blame Whitie. Then maybe we can move on to some more productive grounds, like police brutality, voting rights after incarceration, and other causes you sometimes pretend to support. I mean I've said before that people who commit crimes should be handled by the criminal justice system. But I don't think breaking the law can't be an effective form of protest. So I mean the whole ANTIFA vs black-bloc part doesn't really matter. So I'll say the tactics are sometimes unlawful and should be treated as such, but they aren't "wrong" in the sense that the systemic abuse of people's rights is "wrong". I know you're easily triggered by concepts like white fragility and privilege but they actually refer to real things people observe regularly. It's not the "blame whitey" strawman you've imagined and I'd love you to answer whether you think you have ever done/said anything racist or tinted with white supremacy so we can know where we're starting. | ||
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Danglars
United States12133 Posts
On September 16 2017 06:19 Liquid`Drone wrote: Danglars, I agree that dialogue, deliberation, discussion and debate are the preferred ways of dealing with controversial topics. But I also accept (think it's good, even, tbh) that students are outraged by perceived injustice. And I think it's very predictable that any reasonably large student body is going to include individual students who do somewhat stupid things. And compared to other imperfect ways of showcasing anger and discontent, this one seems extremely mild. I'm not saying it's perfect, just that a statue being draped is not a big deal. Seems like the culprit was drunk, even, which makes it even more of a non-issue. I've stood up and criticized their forms. It is properly understood in the wider context as damaging to the cause. This does not mean I fail to understand that student activism often pursues means that run contrary to their goals. This also doesn't mean that their methods are better than brutal violence shown elsewhere. I seek to point out that the Confederate statue issue, which has sympathy but not majority support for their removal, has bled into a counter-historical framework where any slaveowner that didn't revolt against prevailing attitudes should never be honored. That's a very big danger, no matter how weak an understanding students have of their consequences. They're literally supporting the idea that confederate generals are just as outrageous as the founders of a country that has stood the test of time. It leads regular observers of the progression from Charlottesville to UVA/Atlanta/Santa Barbara/New York/Chicago/Baltimore/Philadelphia/Houston/(and I'm sure I'm forgetting some) as part of a disturbing trend. Don't remember history, stamp it out, for it is far too dangerous to let the statue stand untouched. The culprits were a group, the arrested drunk was singled out because no other arrests were made. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On September 16 2017 06:34 brian wrote: i mean i'm not saying republicans are racist, but i am saying people who defend legal protesting of nazis and condemn legal protesting of blacks are racists. I wouldn't either. But this rush to condemn every protest by blacks, peaceful or otherwise, is happening pretty regularly. Its not even like these students are protesting something that isn't true. Jefferson was racist. He had sex with a woman he owned and how had no right to refuse or rights in general. He was super into the yeoman farmer making up the entire nations, which was code for people like him. Which would be slave owners. None of this stuff is untrue, but it is pretty white washed in most US history courses. | ||
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brian
United States9625 Posts
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Mohdoo
United States15717 Posts
On September 16 2017 06:07 ticklishmusic wrote: I find the shifting in ethics both a little sad but also more something to be hopeful about - on one hand it means many of our heroes will fall because they were only human and had human failings (nothing is sacred, I guess), but OTOH we as a society must getting a little better over time. I think it is important that our "heroes" are not too excessively put on a pedestal. We don't benefit from that. We aren't any stronger as a nation by pretending George Washington or whoever was a god among humans. We don't really have any incentive to be overly forgiving or to pretend people were better than they were. In that regard, I really just don't see anything sad about heroes fading away. | ||
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Doodsmack
United States7224 Posts
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GreenHorizons
United States23305 Posts
On September 16 2017 06:53 Mohdoo wrote: I think it is important that our "heroes" are not too excessively put on a pedestal. We don't benefit from that. We aren't any stronger as a nation by pretending George Washington or whoever was a god among humans. We don't really have any incentive to be overly forgiving or to pretend people were better than they were. In that regard, I really just don't see anything sad about heroes fading away. You saw in the quoted text from the President of the University where they said "desecrating ground that many of us consider sacred"? I suspect this protest was long overdue. | ||
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brian
United States9625 Posts
do all colleges not want to consider themselves a paragon of higher learning and near holy ground? i'm sure ithaca college even called themselves sacred at some point. go bombers. | ||
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Mohdoo
United States15717 Posts
On September 16 2017 06:58 Doodsmack wrote: Seems like a pretty reasonable and peaceful protest to temporarily shroud a statue. I don't see the big deal. I think it is a much bigger deal to conservatives because conservative philosophy tends to place a lot higher value on tradition and hierarchy. Many conservatives view the founding fathers as somewhat of a great, great, great, great, great grandfather. And in terms of "respect your elders", they are borderline superhuman. When you look at the local cultures of rural communities, who tend to have weird little hierarchical structures of their own, where certain families or certain members of communities are seen as "pillars", it is also present. Same deal with churches. Overall, conservative philosophy places huge value in hierarchy. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
Btw, from an outsider's perspective, the mythology and worship of George Washington and your founding fathers is a bit odd. There really isn't anything comparable in Europe. Maybe Stalin. Or to a lesser extent Churchill. | ||
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Mohdoo
United States15717 Posts
On September 16 2017 07:30 Dangermousecatdog wrote: There's a certain hypocrisy involved when a person can stand for the right of assembly and freedom of protest and free speech of white supremists and neo-nazis to march with guns, but not for the freedom of assembly and freedom of protest and free speech to drape a statue in cloth. One would had thought that to have the moral fortitude to stand for the rights of such would naturally lead to stand for the rights of others. Btw, from an outsider's perspective, the mythology and worship of George Washington and your founding fathers is a bit odd. There really isn't anything comparable in Europe. Maybe Stalin. A lot of it has to do with people identifying with and feeling empowered by idols. American culture places a huge emphasis on how we overpowered a foreign power against all odds, and here we are, the badasses who are descended from them. It is a not so subtle way of making ourselves feel more powerful, significant or exceptional than we really are. I can't emphasize enough what an ego stroke our entire curriculum regarding the revolutionary war is. I would say that a lot of people come away from learning about the war feeling VERY empowered. This empowerment comes from identifying with people who we see as the people who built up the strength that we now possess. In the end, it hurts people's egos and identity when the people who empowered them are disrespected or questioned. | ||
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Velr
Switzerland10764 Posts
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LegalLord
United Kingdom13775 Posts
Dunno if what Mohdoo is saying is accurate though. Seems a wee bit dubious. | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States23305 Posts
On September 16 2017 08:10 Velr wrote: Fun part is, plenty of countries have been founded soing a "revolution" against all odds - most didn't have an ocean seperating them from the opressor. Yeah, I'm somewhat unimpressed by the "surviving 200 years thing" too. | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States23305 Posts
On September 16 2017 08:15 LegalLord wrote: And many of those weren't fighting against the strongest imperial power of their era in a time when such revolutions didn't happen. Dunno if what Mohdoo is saying is accurate though. Seems a wee bit dubious. Honestly, it's been a while since I've been in k-12 history classes so I'm not sure what it's like now, but I remember when I went through it, it was pretty much as described, probably worse. Poll: Do you know who Crispus Attucks is without googling him? | ||
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LegalLord
United Kingdom13775 Posts
On September 16 2017 08:18 GreenHorizons wrote: Meant to make this one post... Honestly, it's been a while since I've been in k-12 history classes so I'm not sure what it's like now, but I remember when I went through it, it was pretty much as described, probably worse. Poll: Do you know who Crispus Attucks is without googling him? I'll admit the best I remembered was "black guy in the American Revolutionary War." | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States23305 Posts
On September 16 2017 08:27 LegalLord wrote: I'll admit the best I remembered was "black guy in the American Revolutionary War." I'd be curious whether folks like xDaunt and Danglars would consider him an American? If so, why? | ||
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