US Politics Mega-thread - Page 8747

On September 16 2017 05:28 Logo wrote:


I'm confused too, but I'm guessing it has to do with some of the later verses:



Edit: here's a more detail description of what's seen at problematic about it:

https://theintercept.com/2016/08/28/colin-kaepernick-is-righter-than-you-know-the-national-anthem-is-a-celebration-of-slavery/

On a side note our National Anthem sucks (even without any race related issues).

On September 16 2017 04:45 Danglars wrote:

We'd know if there was any significant number chanting with signs and agitating with their local government. That they want to obscure it is just shitting on their own protest. It doesn't sit well with me the base logic that any huge transgressive act is necessary because then you get better national media attention ... you get the wrong kind of attention because ordinary Americans are disgusted by covering up statues and claiming its a protest. Make your case in the public square.

On September 16 2017 05:44 Plansix wrote:

I remember learning about the debate over the National Anthem back in the 1980s. It isn’t a new thing. Like all US history, its has its own baggage that is mostly related to slavery.

On September 16 2017 05:35 Plansix wrote:

I did some editing to get to the meat of the argument, which you poorly attempting to obscure. The meaning is fine, the tactics are what you have issue with. You would find a lot more in common with posters if you just let people use words, rather than try to confine them to areas you are comfortable with.

I had this discussion yesterday at the bar about how online discussion would be a lot more productive if people were able to use words like feminism, racism, socialism and capitalism without the entire discussion grinding to a halt because someone is doesn’t like the words. I would add ANTIFA and Nazi to that list.

On September 16 2017 05:39 Mohdoo wrote:


I think the big thing is that people are asking why treat people relative to who they were at that time. People are saying "If the monuments built to honor people are still up, those people should be able to withstand modern critique". I have been pondering this, since I have always held the opinion that everyone should be judged by their entire being, not in a way where any good thing or any bad thing suddenly makes someone a hero or a villain. Many extremely accomplished scientists were downright horrible people. They usually just slept around and were nasty in other ways. It is hard to compare because a lot of them didn't own slaves.

In science, we tend to say things like "they were a piece of garbage, but they did good work". This is fair in our context, but it doesn't work so well when the things they did were a lot worse and they are regarded more openly as a country-wide thing.

I think it is entirely appropriate to hold monuments and the like to much higher standards. Monuments represent who we are as a people. Their symbolism shouldn't be understated. It is important.

No wonder Donald Trump invited the Democrats to dinner.

The president has such a poor "personal connection" with Republican leaders on Capitol Hill that reportedly he can't even make small talk with Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell, and finds Paul Ryan a dry "boy scout" with whom he can only exchange pleasantries, sources told Politico Friday.

The revelations come as Trump continues to enjoy positive press coverage from his bi-partisan, deal-making dinner Wednesday night with Sen. Charles Schumer and House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi, a "Chuck and Nancy" show that was "almost uncomfortable," a source told Politico, because of how friendly Trump was with his liberal besties from the elite coasts.

"Schumer just talks to him. You get Mitch and Paul in here, and they're trying to explain this or that, and there is no personal connection,” the White House source said.

...

"I think the President understands he’s going to have to work with the legislative majority," Ryan said Thursday.

Asked if the Republican-held Congress would bring Trump’s DACA deal with Democrats to a vote, the House speaker told reporters he would "get consensus with our members,” noting his refusal to "negotiate through the media."

But Trump and the Democrats are happy to do just that.

"The press has been incredible," Trump exclaimed the day after he struck the deal with Schumer and Pelosi that will keep the federal government operating and provide billions in hurricane aid relief and prevent action against some immigrants after Trump ended the Obama-era Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals program.

"I was telling my colleagues, ‘This is what I asked the president to do,' and boom boom boom, the tweet appeared," Pelosi told reporters Sept. 8.

...

"I think we will have a different relationship than we've been watching over the last number of years. I hope so," Trump said last week. "I think that's what the people of the United States want to see. They want to see some dialogue."

On September 16 2017 05:50 ticklishmusic wrote:


right. people are complicated, and there are some people who did a lot of good after doing a lot of bad. not everyone is a saint (not even the ones who are capital-s Saint). like, nelson mandela was effectively a terrorist at one point, ghandi was kinda racist. in their cases my opinion is that the good they did by far outweights their failings (i'm sure some might disagree), but the math isn't so easy for most.

On September 16 2017 05:21 Danglars wrote:

I don't know. Why we pretending that ANTIFA means anti-fascist?

You certainly wouldn't want to go against a wartime military necessity would you? Well that's what the internment of Japanese Americans was. So too is ANTIFA anti-fascist. They'd like to adopt that label, but their actual acts are fascist to the core. I'm glad most in the forum are not hesitant to denounce their tactics. You on the other hand ... well the penchant for using violence against the far-right and conservative speakers only rises to anarchy in your world.

One thing about "you're all about x, but don't you know y injustice keeps happening." You have for years only focused on racial issues. Maybe you should switch to acknowledging that some problems in the US aren't just racially motivated.

So stop pretending the white man is the source of all your problems.

On September 16 2017 05:50 ticklishmusic wrote:


right. people are complicated, and there are some people who did a lot of good after doing a lot of bad. not everyone is a saint (not even the ones who are capital-s Saint). like, nelson mandela was effectively a terrorist at one point, ghandi was kinda racist. in their cases my opinion is that the good they did by far outweights their failings (i'm sure some might disagree), but the math isn't so easy for most.

like, if some scientist turns out to be a serial killer/ torturer but discovers the cure for cancer (hypothetical as i don't believe there is a silver bullet for cancer) through experimentation on his victims, what do we do?or a less extreme case, a scientist discovers the cure but does a bunch of unethical things like testing on terminal patients secretly without consent?

On September 16 2017 05:47 Liquid`Drone wrote:


I disagree that draping a statue is a huge transgressive act. I'm not defending actually ruining statues, not spray painting them either, but from how I'm understanding this, fixing the vandalism took 5 seconds and there was 0 material damage. To me that is a pretty civil way of protesting and I don't have any issues with it.

On Wednesday, University of Virginia President Teresa A. Sullivan sent the following message to the University Community:

Members of the University Community:

Last night, several members of the University and Charlottesville communities held a protest at the Thomas Jefferson statue located north of the Rotunda, and several protestors covered the Jefferson statue in a black shroud. The cover has since been removed. One person was arrested for public intoxication.

I strongly disagree with the protestors’ decision to cover the Jefferson statue. I also recognize the rights of those present at the protest to express their emotions and opinions regarding the recent horrific events that occurred on our Grounds and in Charlottesville. Our community continues to heal, and we must remain respectful of one another if substantive progress can be made on addressing the many challenges and opportunities that we all face.

The University’s founder, Thomas Jefferson, made many contributions to the progress of the early American Republic: he served as the third President of the United States, championed religious freedom, and authored the Declaration of Independence.

In apparent contradiction to his persuasive arguments for liberty and human rights, however, he was also a slave owner. In its early days the University of Virginia was dependent upon the institution of slavery. Enslaved people not only built its buildings, but also served in a wide variety of capacities for UVA’s first fifty years of existence. After gaining freedom, African Americans continued to work for the University, but they were not allowed to enroll as students until the mid-twentieth century.

The University has acknowledged its controversial history and we continue to learn from it through open dialogue and civil discourse. In 2013, I formed the President’s Commission on Slavery and the University to explore UVA’s relationship to slavery and enslaved people and to make recommendations for steps UVA can take in response to this history. The Memorial to Enslaved Laborers that the Board of Visitors approved this past June is another example of how the University is reconciling its past with its aspirations for a more inclusive, diverse environment. Recent gains in enrolling students from under-represented groups and recruiting a more diverse faculty are also testament to our commitment to be a more diverse University.

Today, the University will formally dedicate Pinn Hall in honor of Vivian W. Pinn, M.D., one of the earliest African-American women to graduate from the School of Medicine and a former director of the National Institutes of Health’s Office of Research on Women’s Health. Later this week, the Board of Visitors will also discuss honoring W.W. Yen, the first student from China to graduate from the University of Virginia, and the first international student to receive a Bachelor of Arts degree from UVA, with a building name.

There is more work to be done, and I look forward to members of our community coming together and recommitting to our foundational values of honor, integrity, trust and respect.

Teresa A. Sullivan
President

Dear alumni and friends of the University,

Last night about forty students held a demonstration on the north side of the Rotunda and as part of this demonstration, they shrouded the Jefferson statue, desecrating ground that many of us consider sacred. I strongly disagree with the protestors’ decision to cover the Jefferson statue. The University dispatched workers to remove the covering, but when they arrived, it already was gone. One person was arrested for public intoxication. These are the facts of the situation, regardless of what you may read in media accounts of those who have their own agenda.

Coming just one month after the August 11 torchlight march by 300 racist and anti-Semitic protesters, a march that became violent, this event has reminded us that there are critical and sometimes divisive issues related to the exercise of free expression in an inclusive community.

I would like to frame this issue somewhat differently. Thomas Jefferson was an ardent believer in freedom of expression, and he experienced plenty of abusive treatment from the newspapers of his day. He would likely not be surprised to find that when there are critical disagreements in the polity, those disagreements will find expression at his University. UVA's importance as a university is underscored by the fact that arguments about free expression, hate speech, and similar issues occur here. Sometimes these arguments are noisy.

In your own college days, many of you experienced protests and activism at UVA. The war in Vietnam, Watergate, 9/11, and many other issues have been discussed, debated, and protested at UVA. We are at another such point. I prefer the process of discussion and debate, and the debate is happening here at UVA with a wide variety of guest speakers, panels, and other opportunities to look at underlying issues. That there is also activism should not be a surprise to any of us.

With my best wishes,

Teresa A. Sullivan
President

On September 16 2017 05:56 GreenHorizons wrote:


lol, Like I said, your problem is with black-bloc tactics, not ANTIFA.

You (and many others) may think that's all I talk about, but I actually went for a long time not posting examples of racial abuse.

The point about you is that you pretend to hold "law and order" on some pedestal and that's the reason you whine over something like some spray paint and a shroud, but it's really displayed in the frequency and vociferousness of your posts that your concerns for unlawfulness and order are tinted by white supremacy.

The injustice and disorder of some protesters shrouding a statue and spray painting appears by way of your posts to be a greater threat than the systemic and habitual abuse of PoC's constitutional rights by those charged with protecting them from exactly that.

So you're right we should stop pretending. The aggregate of your posts display white supremacy. Maybe that's not what you intend, but the fact of the matter is that's what it is.

On September 16 2017 05:57 Mohdoo wrote:


I agree with everything you're saying. I see the situations as distinct and I think they have different ethical considerations.

When you build a monument, I would say it goes much further than celebrating someone cured cancer. Monuments represent something much deeper and much more thorough than respect. For that reason, I think that monuments should be held to a much higher standard and should withstand the ethics of the current generation. If the monuments no longer represent the ideals and beliefs of American citizens, they are no longer serving their purpose.

On September 16 2017 06:03 Danglars wrote:

You've given me a much deeper understanding of movements like BLM and fellow travelers of ANTIFA. As before, your main point is that you define the terms of sufficiently supporting causes you hold dear. I don't really care if you want to call ANTIFA protests a different term because you whitewash their acts. It's not really that surprising. The fact of the matter is that you want to shortcut the argument and arrive at "your posts display white supremacy." I knew from the start that this effort was to try and brand conservatives as somehow permissive of white supremacist ideology. Your style of discussion is a further confirmation of that fact. Bad ANTIFA isn't antifa, it's black-bloc ... good ANTIFA is anti-fascists ... you spend too much time on the desecration of ancient monuments so you're party to excusing police violence.

On September 16 2017 05:25 Danglars wrote:

I talked about two separate incidents.

It kind of got lost because thread leftists thought a shroud was an easier avenue to attack than a poet.

Like, I actually described the specific act of vandalism in a separated quote from a different news article. If you're not willing to read the thread, don't ask me to generalize on topics. "What Danglars said" is not the same as "let's just look at what others took issue with."

On September 16 2017 06:15 GreenHorizons wrote:


I mean you seem to be struggling to even comprehend what I'm saying, so I'd be careful about assuming a greater understanding.

I don't define them.

If it makes you feel better it's not just conservatives, Democrats are permissive of white supremacist ideology too. Democrats just admit it once in a while, while folks like yourself can't seem to ever come to grips with it.

Just to gauge where we're at, have you ever done or said anything you think was racist?