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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. |
Not to mention they overshadow a lot of other fields which arguably has done more for the world but gets no credit such as Manufacturing.
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On September 09 2017 09:07 sc-darkness wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2017 09:05 kollin wrote:On September 09 2017 09:01 sc-darkness wrote:On September 09 2017 08:59 kollin wrote:On September 09 2017 08:55 sc-darkness wrote:On September 09 2017 08:50 Plansix wrote:On September 09 2017 08:40 mahrgell wrote:On September 09 2017 08:33 Plansix wrote:On September 09 2017 08:30 Lmui wrote:One other thing about Amazon, I'm pretty sure Toronto/Vancouver are at the top of the list. They both have large talent pools to draw from and according to this chart: + Show Spoiler +We are literally the best quality software devs outside of silicon valley at half the price (I really wish it weren't half - Amazon moving up here and providing more demand for us would increase that significantly, I hope) I have much skepticism of this graph. But then again I have much skepticism of the tech industry and their self worship. What surprises me more is actually this claim about "work quality" which is then measured in participation in certain top CSI programs... This must be an American thing... Because here I know software development companies near the top end of the food chain, who pay absurdly high, but don't give a damn about degrees at all and in fact most of their devs don't have any degree. And it doesn't matter to their wage at all. And most people in that business confirm that from other companies too. The entire tech industry seems to be high on own supply. They have been selling the idea that they are the next revolution in innovation that they all believe it now. It does not shock me that they made a graph that puts the two centers of the tech industry at the highest of "work quality" column. One of them asked: "how do we even measure greatness?" and the project lead said "we look within." And then the graph was born. What do you work? Are you a doctor, a physicist, a mathematician, an austronaut, etc? How do you contribute? As much as I'm pro-immigration, I think measuring anyone on 'how much they contribute' whether native or immigrant is also reprehensible. P6 is not criticising you personally, there's no need to act like it. Not only that, I think he's right - few industries seem to be further up their own arses than the tech industry. Note I work in the tech industry so I could be biased. However, I think the IT industry has truly brought innovation - computers are everywhere to help people. What can't this be acknowledged? If you don't believe that IT has brought high level of innovation, then PLEASE specify another field where innovation is at a high level. I'm OK with that. I'm not OK with "blah blah IT tech industry is overrated". Of course the tech industry has produced a lot of innovation. I still think, as a whole, it is placed on too high a pedestal by some people and there's a culture of worship by some around it that I think is excessive. Especially when I look at the 'leaders' in tech eg Musk, the Google guys etc, I can't help but feel people idolise them far too much. Well, maybe. I don't follow them as much so I don't know. I suppose it's refreshing and exciting for some people to get new technology. I find astronomy impressive though. That has also brought some nice innovation and research. 
I'm a bigggg space nerd so I definitely understand what you mean. I think Plansix is more talking about Silicon Valley types that really aren't providing THAT much to society while calling themselves 'Leaders in Innovation' or whatever.
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On September 09 2017 08:13 sc-darkness wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2017 08:07 bo1b wrote:
It's the truth though, if he prefers it sugarcoated he can call me. If he doesn't like a random on the internet making a snide remark, imagine how the nation of america feels about what he said. It's a retarded thing to say, and following it to the natural conclusion of outsourcing all intellectual pursuits is silly. Any great nation must take priority of its own citizens, including natural born citizens (would you set up a family in a nation if they were going to pass you up at the slightest opportunity?) before importing other people. I doubt the foreigner is coming to America for anything more then money at this point. Good for him.
User was temp banned for describing another forum user as "blatantly autistic, horrendous with english, horrendously rude" and refusing to take a way out when offered one. Nation must? So, if you have got some little farmer in the US with ZERO understanding of maths or physics, how are they more precious to that nation than someone with higher education? "But... he was born here!". Yeah, so? How does that help? Who would contribute more in the long run? Couldn't an immigrant contribute as much as or more than a natural citizen? What was that about English when you can't even spell "whose" or English (hint: capital E)? You think I'm hurt? I wasn't born in an English speaking country. Try to speak a foreign language better than someone's native language, then talk shit.
Diminishing little farmers in the US that don't understand maths or physics isn't a perspective I hope we import more of. Only a piece of shit country confers value on their citizens based on their educational achievement or economic utility. I would hope a normal diverse educational experience would otherwise teach the student something of this before graduation.
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On September 09 2017 08:36 sc-darkness wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2017 08:31 Plansix wrote:
I feel his disappointed could be expressed in a less hostile manner. My disappointment with Trump has started much earlier than my application for H1B jobs. You can be sure of that. I don't think Trump has many supporters outside the US. He is deeply unpopular in Europe. I tell you this as European.
where are you from? maybe id swap citizenship with you.
@amazonfanboys
what reason is there to think that amazon's "sweatshop" culture, as one poster above described it, and extreme exploitation practices won't just get worse? i don't get it.
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United States44242 Posts
On September 09 2017 09:08 kollin wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2017 09:07 sc-darkness wrote:On September 09 2017 09:05 kollin wrote:On September 09 2017 09:01 sc-darkness wrote:On September 09 2017 08:59 kollin wrote:On September 09 2017 08:55 sc-darkness wrote:On September 09 2017 08:50 Plansix wrote:On September 09 2017 08:40 mahrgell wrote:On September 09 2017 08:33 Plansix wrote:On September 09 2017 08:30 Lmui wrote:One other thing about Amazon, I'm pretty sure Toronto/Vancouver are at the top of the list. They both have large talent pools to draw from and according to this chart: + Show Spoiler +We are literally the best quality software devs outside of silicon valley at half the price (I really wish it weren't half - Amazon moving up here and providing more demand for us would increase that significantly, I hope) I have much skepticism of this graph. But then again I have much skepticism of the tech industry and their self worship. What surprises me more is actually this claim about "work quality" which is then measured in participation in certain top CSI programs... This must be an American thing... Because here I know software development companies near the top end of the food chain, who pay absurdly high, but don't give a damn about degrees at all and in fact most of their devs don't have any degree. And it doesn't matter to their wage at all. And most people in that business confirm that from other companies too. The entire tech industry seems to be high on own supply. They have been selling the idea that they are the next revolution in innovation that they all believe it now. It does not shock me that they made a graph that puts the two centers of the tech industry at the highest of "work quality" column. One of them asked: "how do we even measure greatness?" and the project lead said "we look within." And then the graph was born. What do you work? Are you a doctor, a physicist, a mathematician, an austronaut, etc? How do you contribute? As much as I'm pro-immigration, I think measuring anyone on 'how much they contribute' whether native or immigrant is also reprehensible. P6 is not criticising you personally, there's no need to act like it. Not only that, I think he's right - few industries seem to be further up their own arses than the tech industry. Note I work in the tech industry so I could be biased. However, I think the IT industry has truly brought innovation - computers are everywhere to help people. What can't this be acknowledged? If you don't believe that IT has brought high level of innovation, then PLEASE specify another field where innovation is at a high level. I'm OK with that. I'm not OK with "blah blah IT tech industry is overrated". Of course the tech industry has produced a lot of innovation. I still think, as a whole, it is placed on too high a pedestal by some people and there's a culture of worship by some around it that I think is excessive. Especially when I look at the 'leaders' in tech eg Musk, the Google guys etc, I can't help but feel people idolise them far too much. Well, maybe. I don't follow them as much so I don't know. I suppose it's refreshing and exciting for some people to get new technology. I find astronomy impressive though. That has also brought some nice innovation and research. I'm a bigggg space nerd so I definitely understand what you mean. I think Plansix is more talking about Silicon Valley types that really aren't providing THAT much to society while calling themselves 'Leaders in Innovation' or whatever.
If you trust the market they're providing an awful lot to society. I think the value of the information age is difficult to really properly quantify. Take my field. The vast, vast majority of all accounting work that was done a few decades ago is now done by software, and on a far greater scale than could possibly have been imagined back then. Technology has created an army of hundreds of millions of virtual skilled accountants that have been mobilized productively. The amount of economic activity attributable directly to tech is breathtaking. I'd very easily believe that economic productivity attributable solely to tech from the last 20 years is greater than the entire economic productivity that preexisted it, that we've successfully leveraged our labour at a greater than 2:1 ratio.
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Yeah, I am not on the Amazon fan train. They are a useful company for repeat purchase.. But I have gone back to buying physical books and trying to shop there less. I am not excited that MA is trying to court their new office for Boston. Higher rent is the last thing this state needs. And their labor practices are going to be bad. I am just waiting for the stories about how they repress unionization of their warehouse workers, because that is going to happen.
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On September 09 2017 09:17 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2017 09:08 kollin wrote:On September 09 2017 09:07 sc-darkness wrote:On September 09 2017 09:05 kollin wrote:On September 09 2017 09:01 sc-darkness wrote:On September 09 2017 08:59 kollin wrote:On September 09 2017 08:55 sc-darkness wrote:On September 09 2017 08:50 Plansix wrote:On September 09 2017 08:40 mahrgell wrote:On September 09 2017 08:33 Plansix wrote:
[quote]
I have much skepticism of this graph. But then again I have much skepticism of the tech industry and their self worship. What surprises me more is actually this claim about "work quality" which is then measured in participation in certain top CSI programs... This must be an American thing... Because here I know software development companies near the top end of the food chain, who pay absurdly high, but don't give a damn about degrees at all and in fact most of their devs don't have any degree. And it doesn't matter to their wage at all. And most people in that business confirm that from other companies too. The entire tech industry seems to be high on own supply. They have been selling the idea that they are the next revolution in innovation that they all believe it now. It does not shock me that they made a graph that puts the two centers of the tech industry at the highest of "work quality" column. One of them asked: "how do we even measure greatness?" and the project lead said "we look within." And then the graph was born. What do you work? Are you a doctor, a physicist, a mathematician, an austronaut, etc? How do you contribute? As much as I'm pro-immigration, I think measuring anyone on 'how much they contribute' whether native or immigrant is also reprehensible. P6 is not criticising you personally, there's no need to act like it. Not only that, I think he's right - few industries seem to be further up their own arses than the tech industry. Note I work in the tech industry so I could be biased. However, I think the IT industry has truly brought innovation - computers are everywhere to help people. What can't this be acknowledged? If you don't believe that IT has brought high level of innovation, then PLEASE specify another field where innovation is at a high level. I'm OK with that. I'm not OK with "blah blah IT tech industry is overrated". Of course the tech industry has produced a lot of innovation. I still think, as a whole, it is placed on too high a pedestal by some people and there's a culture of worship by some around it that I think is excessive. Especially when I look at the 'leaders' in tech eg Musk, the Google guys etc, I can't help but feel people idolise them far too much. Well, maybe. I don't follow them as much so I don't know. I suppose it's refreshing and exciting for some people to get new technology. I find astronomy impressive though. That has also brought some nice innovation and research. I'm a bigggg space nerd so I definitely understand what you mean. I think Plansix is more talking about Silicon Valley types that really aren't providing THAT much to society while calling themselves 'Leaders in Innovation' or whatever. If you trust the market they're providing an awful lot to society. I think the value of the information age is difficult to really properly quantify. Take my field. The vast, vast majority of all accounting work that was done a few decades ago is now done by software, and on a far greater scale than could possibly have been imagined back then. Technology has created an army of hundreds of millions of virtual skilled accountants that have been mobilized productively. The amount of economic activity attributable directly to tech is breathtaking. I'd very easily believe that economic productivity attributable solely to tech from the last 20 years is greater than the entire economic productivity that preexisted it, that we've successfully leveraged our labour at a greater than 2:1 ratio.
Oh undoubtedly it's an amazing asset economically (even if none of the companies seem to pay taxes or ensure workers at their supply shops are paid properly). I more just wonder if Silicon Valley gives people a lot of things that they clearly want (the value of some companies attest to this), even if they aren't that beneficial to society. Uber and Deliveroo are some examples that come to mind.
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And as someone who has to clean up after a lot of very sloppy title work done by banks trying to cut a deal, the speed of technology has with a very real costs(in that industry). But that cost isn't quantified because its normally hidden until someone finds it and then they have to pick up the tab(or title insurance does). I cannot tell you the number of discussions I have had with banks telling them they did not sell the property they thought they sold to another bank four years ago, and no one has been paying the taxes. The speed of computers has become an amazing tool to hid errors and incentives risk because of that. And no one is talking about slowing down, because that would be holding industry back.
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On September 09 2017 09:17 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2017 09:08 kollin wrote:On September 09 2017 09:07 sc-darkness wrote:On September 09 2017 09:05 kollin wrote:On September 09 2017 09:01 sc-darkness wrote:On September 09 2017 08:59 kollin wrote:On September 09 2017 08:55 sc-darkness wrote:On September 09 2017 08:50 Plansix wrote:On September 09 2017 08:40 mahrgell wrote:On September 09 2017 08:33 Plansix wrote:
[quote]
I have much skepticism of this graph. But then again I have much skepticism of the tech industry and their self worship. What surprises me more is actually this claim about "work quality" which is then measured in participation in certain top CSI programs... This must be an American thing... Because here I know software development companies near the top end of the food chain, who pay absurdly high, but don't give a damn about degrees at all and in fact most of their devs don't have any degree. And it doesn't matter to their wage at all. And most people in that business confirm that from other companies too. The entire tech industry seems to be high on own supply. They have been selling the idea that they are the next revolution in innovation that they all believe it now. It does not shock me that they made a graph that puts the two centers of the tech industry at the highest of "work quality" column. One of them asked: "how do we even measure greatness?" and the project lead said "we look within." And then the graph was born. What do you work? Are you a doctor, a physicist, a mathematician, an austronaut, etc? How do you contribute? As much as I'm pro-immigration, I think measuring anyone on 'how much they contribute' whether native or immigrant is also reprehensible. P6 is not criticising you personally, there's no need to act like it. Not only that, I think he's right - few industries seem to be further up their own arses than the tech industry. Note I work in the tech industry so I could be biased. However, I think the IT industry has truly brought innovation - computers are everywhere to help people. What can't this be acknowledged? If you don't believe that IT has brought high level of innovation, then PLEASE specify another field where innovation is at a high level. I'm OK with that. I'm not OK with "blah blah IT tech industry is overrated". Of course the tech industry has produced a lot of innovation. I still think, as a whole, it is placed on too high a pedestal by some people and there's a culture of worship by some around it that I think is excessive. Especially when I look at the 'leaders' in tech eg Musk, the Google guys etc, I can't help but feel people idolise them far too much. Well, maybe. I don't follow them as much so I don't know. I suppose it's refreshing and exciting for some people to get new technology. I find astronomy impressive though. That has also brought some nice innovation and research. I'm a bigggg space nerd so I definitely understand what you mean. I think Plansix is more talking about Silicon Valley types that really aren't providing THAT much to society while calling themselves 'Leaders in Innovation' or whatever. If you trust the market they're providing an awful lot to society. I think the value of the information age is difficult to really properly quantify. Take my field. The vast, vast majority of all accounting work that was done a few decades ago is now done by software, and on a far greater scale than could possibly have been imagined back then. Technology has created an army of hundreds of millions of virtual skilled accountants that have been mobilized productively. The amount of economic activity attributable directly to tech is breathtaking. I'd very easily believe that economic productivity attributable solely to tech from the last 20 years is greater than the entire economic productivity that preexisted it, that we've successfully leveraged our labour at a greater than 2:1 ratio.
Economic studies on productivity gains from the digital age don't really show that magnitude of impact. It might be that tech has reduced costs to zero in many services and goods and that makes it harder to measure. On the other hand, sectors like energy, education, healthcare, construction, transportation, food serrvices - they have largely remained the same and represent a huge chunk of the GDP which hasn't been affected much by digital tech.That being said, there are many good reasons to believe all of those sectors will be heavily impacted by technology in the near future.
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Err.. I don't agree about some of these fields. Energy companies here offer smart meters which can send you readings hourly/daily/monthly. Healthcare has a lot of cool tech compared to before. Construction has software to check for earthquakes, and probably a lot more. That's not the same in my opinion.
Transportation.. well, GPS. Optimal route, when next delivery is going to be (tracking driver basically), etc.
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On September 09 2017 09:26 kollin wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2017 09:17 KwarK wrote:On September 09 2017 09:08 kollin wrote:On September 09 2017 09:07 sc-darkness wrote:On September 09 2017 09:05 kollin wrote:On September 09 2017 09:01 sc-darkness wrote:On September 09 2017 08:59 kollin wrote:On September 09 2017 08:55 sc-darkness wrote:On September 09 2017 08:50 Plansix wrote:On September 09 2017 08:40 mahrgell wrote:
[quote]
What surprises me more is actually this claim about "work quality" which is then measured in participation in certain top CSI programs...
This must be an American thing...
Because here I know software development companies near the top end of the food chain, who pay absurdly high, but don't give a damn about degrees at all and in fact most of their devs don't have any degree. And it doesn't matter to their wage at all.
And most people in that business confirm that from other companies too. The entire tech industry seems to be high on own supply. They have been selling the idea that they are the next revolution in innovation that they all believe it now. It does not shock me that they made a graph that puts the two centers of the tech industry at the highest of "work quality" column. One of them asked: "how do we even measure greatness?" and the project lead said "we look within." And then the graph was born. What do you work? Are you a doctor, a physicist, a mathematician, an austronaut, etc? How do you contribute? As much as I'm pro-immigration, I think measuring anyone on 'how much they contribute' whether native or immigrant is also reprehensible. P6 is not criticising you personally, there's no need to act like it. Not only that, I think he's right - few industries seem to be further up their own arses than the tech industry. Note I work in the tech industry so I could be biased. However, I think the IT industry has truly brought innovation - computers are everywhere to help people. What can't this be acknowledged? If you don't believe that IT has brought high level of innovation, then PLEASE specify another field where innovation is at a high level. I'm OK with that. I'm not OK with "blah blah IT tech industry is overrated". Of course the tech industry has produced a lot of innovation. I still think, as a whole, it is placed on too high a pedestal by some people and there's a culture of worship by some around it that I think is excessive. Especially when I look at the 'leaders' in tech eg Musk, the Google guys etc, I can't help but feel people idolise them far too much. Well, maybe. I don't follow them as much so I don't know. I suppose it's refreshing and exciting for some people to get new technology. I find astronomy impressive though. That has also brought some nice innovation and research. I'm a bigggg space nerd so I definitely understand what you mean. I think Plansix is more talking about Silicon Valley types that really aren't providing THAT much to society while calling themselves 'Leaders in Innovation' or whatever. If you trust the market they're providing an awful lot to society. I think the value of the information age is difficult to really properly quantify. Take my field. The vast, vast majority of all accounting work that was done a few decades ago is now done by software, and on a far greater scale than could possibly have been imagined back then. Technology has created an army of hundreds of millions of virtual skilled accountants that have been mobilized productively. The amount of economic activity attributable directly to tech is breathtaking. I'd very easily believe that economic productivity attributable solely to tech from the last 20 years is greater than the entire economic productivity that preexisted it, that we've successfully leveraged our labour at a greater than 2:1 ratio. Oh undoubtedly it's an amazing asset economically (even if none of the companies seem to pay taxes or ensure workers at their supply shops are paid properly). I more just wonder if Silicon Valley gives people a lot of things that they clearly want (the value of some companies attest to this), even if they aren't that beneficial to society. Uber and Deliveroo are some examples that come to mind.
I've seen a study showing Uber to be vastly more efficient than taxis (much higher % of time and of miles driven with a passenger). That's clearly beneficial to society over the previous status quo. It's easy to see how Airbnb is also incredibly beneficial - opening up an industry from concentrated hotel chains into hundreds of thousands (millions?) of home owners, all the while driving down prices. There are thousands upon thousands of similar examples with varying degrres of magnitude of impact.
sc-darkness thereare promising technologies coming up in those fields but they really haven't changed the industries all that much. Do note that four medical I'm only referring to digital technologies.
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On September 09 2017 09:39 sc-darkness wrote:
Err.. I don't agree about some of these fields. Energy companies here offer smart meters which can send you readings hourly/daily/monthly. Healthcare has a lot of cool tech compared to before. Construction has software to check for earthquakes, and probably a lot more. That's not the same in my opinion.
Transportation.. well, GPS. Optimal route, when next delivery is going to be (tracking driver basically), etc.
But their productive has not increased on any substantial level. Tech as not transformed from the foundation up. My wife works in healthcare, digital records are not all they are cracked up to be. Construction is still construction. Power lines are still power lines. GPS's optimized everyone on to the same road. Even traffic predicting software like Ways is starting to game itself with wide scale use.
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United States44242 Posts
On September 09 2017 09:33 warding wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2017 09:17 KwarK wrote:On September 09 2017 09:08 kollin wrote:On September 09 2017 09:07 sc-darkness wrote:On September 09 2017 09:05 kollin wrote:On September 09 2017 09:01 sc-darkness wrote:On September 09 2017 08:59 kollin wrote:On September 09 2017 08:55 sc-darkness wrote:On September 09 2017 08:50 Plansix wrote:On September 09 2017 08:40 mahrgell wrote:
[quote]
What surprises me more is actually this claim about "work quality" which is then measured in participation in certain top CSI programs...
This must be an American thing...
Because here I know software development companies near the top end of the food chain, who pay absurdly high, but don't give a damn about degrees at all and in fact most of their devs don't have any degree. And it doesn't matter to their wage at all.
And most people in that business confirm that from other companies too. The entire tech industry seems to be high on own supply. They have been selling the idea that they are the next revolution in innovation that they all believe it now. It does not shock me that they made a graph that puts the two centers of the tech industry at the highest of "work quality" column. One of them asked: "how do we even measure greatness?" and the project lead said "we look within." And then the graph was born. What do you work? Are you a doctor, a physicist, a mathematician, an austronaut, etc? How do you contribute? As much as I'm pro-immigration, I think measuring anyone on 'how much they contribute' whether native or immigrant is also reprehensible. P6 is not criticising you personally, there's no need to act like it. Not only that, I think he's right - few industries seem to be further up their own arses than the tech industry. Note I work in the tech industry so I could be biased. However, I think the IT industry has truly brought innovation - computers are everywhere to help people. What can't this be acknowledged? If you don't believe that IT has brought high level of innovation, then PLEASE specify another field where innovation is at a high level. I'm OK with that. I'm not OK with "blah blah IT tech industry is overrated". Of course the tech industry has produced a lot of innovation. I still think, as a whole, it is placed on too high a pedestal by some people and there's a culture of worship by some around it that I think is excessive. Especially when I look at the 'leaders' in tech eg Musk, the Google guys etc, I can't help but feel people idolise them far too much. Well, maybe. I don't follow them as much so I don't know. I suppose it's refreshing and exciting for some people to get new technology. I find astronomy impressive though. That has also brought some nice innovation and research. I'm a bigggg space nerd so I definitely understand what you mean. I think Plansix is more talking about Silicon Valley types that really aren't providing THAT much to society while calling themselves 'Leaders in Innovation' or whatever. If you trust the market they're providing an awful lot to society. I think the value of the information age is difficult to really properly quantify. Take my field. The vast, vast majority of all accounting work that was done a few decades ago is now done by software, and on a far greater scale than could possibly have been imagined back then. Technology has created an army of hundreds of millions of virtual skilled accountants that have been mobilized productively. The amount of economic activity attributable directly to tech is breathtaking. I'd very easily believe that economic productivity attributable solely to tech from the last 20 years is greater than the entire economic productivity that preexisted it, that we've successfully leveraged our labour at a greater than 2:1 ratio. Economic studies on productivity gains from the digital age don't really show that magnitude of impact. It might be that tech has reduced costs to zero in many services and goods and that makes it harder to measure. On the other hand, sectors like energy, education, healthcare, construction, transportation, food serrvices - they have largely remained the same and represent a huge chunk of the GDP which hasn't been affected much by digital tech.That being said, there are many good reasons to believe all of those sectors will be heavily impacted by technology in the near future.
Consider a preexisting job, like a grocery store clerk. Technology has hugely increased the volume of sales they can process working alone with a simple scanner, but behind the scenes it's also removed the need for monitoring what is sold for replenishing stock which was a vast time constraint, accepting and processing payments, pricing, inventory management and so forth. The entire backend is a huge and interconnected management system that can enable decision making that would have been unimaginable before. Had we been willing to do so as a society we could have kept the prices the same and simply let grocery store clerks work 4 hour weeks for the same pay they'd previously received for 40. Instead we drastically reduced the overhead component (and therefore the price) of goods and freed that labour up elsewhere.
Being alive right now is like being alive for the domestication of wheat or the invention of the steam engine, only with a century of change packed into a single decade. It's an exciting time.
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On September 09 2017 09:18 Plansix wrote:
Yeah, I am not on the Amazon fan train. They are a useful company for repeat purchase.. But I have gone back to buying physical books and trying to shop there less. I am not excited that MA is trying to court their new office for Boston. Higher rent is the last thing this state needs. And their labor practices are going to be bad. I am just waiting for the stories about how they repress unionization of their warehouse workers, because that is going to happen.
Having seen the inside of a distribution center, it's not pretty. I've never quit a job that fast.
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On September 09 2017 09:40 warding wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2017 09:26 kollin wrote:On September 09 2017 09:17 KwarK wrote:On September 09 2017 09:08 kollin wrote:On September 09 2017 09:07 sc-darkness wrote:On September 09 2017 09:05 kollin wrote:On September 09 2017 09:01 sc-darkness wrote:On September 09 2017 08:59 kollin wrote:On September 09 2017 08:55 sc-darkness wrote:On September 09 2017 08:50 Plansix wrote:
[quote]
The entire tech industry seems to be high on own supply. They have been selling the idea that they are the next revolution in innovation that they all believe it now. It does not shock me that they made a graph that puts the two centers of the tech industry at the highest of "work quality" column. One of them asked: "how do we even measure greatness?" and the project lead said "we look within." And then the graph was born. What do you work? Are you a doctor, a physicist, a mathematician, an austronaut, etc? How do you contribute? As much as I'm pro-immigration, I think measuring anyone on 'how much they contribute' whether native or immigrant is also reprehensible. P6 is not criticising you personally, there's no need to act like it. Not only that, I think he's right - few industries seem to be further up their own arses than the tech industry. Note I work in the tech industry so I could be biased. However, I think the IT industry has truly brought innovation - computers are everywhere to help people. What can't this be acknowledged? If you don't believe that IT has brought high level of innovation, then PLEASE specify another field where innovation is at a high level. I'm OK with that. I'm not OK with "blah blah IT tech industry is overrated". Of course the tech industry has produced a lot of innovation. I still think, as a whole, it is placed on too high a pedestal by some people and there's a culture of worship by some around it that I think is excessive. Especially when I look at the 'leaders' in tech eg Musk, the Google guys etc, I can't help but feel people idolise them far too much. Well, maybe. I don't follow them as much so I don't know. I suppose it's refreshing and exciting for some people to get new technology. I find astronomy impressive though. That has also brought some nice innovation and research. I'm a bigggg space nerd so I definitely understand what you mean. I think Plansix is more talking about Silicon Valley types that really aren't providing THAT much to society while calling themselves 'Leaders in Innovation' or whatever. If you trust the market they're providing an awful lot to society. I think the value of the information age is difficult to really properly quantify. Take my field. The vast, vast majority of all accounting work that was done a few decades ago is now done by software, and on a far greater scale than could possibly have been imagined back then. Technology has created an army of hundreds of millions of virtual skilled accountants that have been mobilized productively. The amount of economic activity attributable directly to tech is breathtaking. I'd very easily believe that economic productivity attributable solely to tech from the last 20 years is greater than the entire economic productivity that preexisted it, that we've successfully leveraged our labour at a greater than 2:1 ratio. Oh undoubtedly it's an amazing asset economically (even if none of the companies seem to pay taxes or ensure workers at their supply shops are paid properly). I more just wonder if Silicon Valley gives people a lot of things that they clearly want (the value of some companies attest to this), even if they aren't that beneficial to society. Uber and Deliveroo are some examples that come to mind. I've seen a study showing Uber to be vastly more efficient than taxis (much higher % of time and of miles driven with a passenger). That's clearly beneficial to society over the previous status quo. It's easy to see how Airbnb is also incredibly beneficial - opening up an industry from concentrated hotel chains into hundreds of thousands (millions?) of home owners, all the while driving down prices. There are thousands upon thousands of similar examples with varying degrres of magnitude of impact. sc-darkness thereare promising technologies coming up in those fields but they really haven't changed the industries all that much. Do note that four medical I'm only referring to digital technologies.
Uber has also brought about a fairly shitty age of gig economy jobs. Arguably these always existed through cash in hand jobs, Craigslist and whatever, but I still have the gut feeling that Uber had legitimised the gig economy like nothing before it. Maybe the gig economy is more a symptom of problems in society, but nevertheless I think if you look at companies like Uber from a different angle the value they provide to society is less clear.
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On September 09 2017 09:46 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2017 09:18 Plansix wrote:
Yeah, I am not on the Amazon fan train. They are a useful company for repeat purchase.. But I have gone back to buying physical books and trying to shop there less. I am not excited that MA is trying to court their new office for Boston. Higher rent is the last thing this state needs. And their labor practices are going to be bad. I am just waiting for the stories about how they repress unionization of their warehouse workers, because that is going to happen. Having seen the inside of a distribution center, it's not pretty. I've never quit a job that fast.
It is almost like they are working on the uber model(abuse labor until it breaks) and have amazing public relations and 2 day shipping. Just wait until those workers try to unionize.
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The Great Amazon Strike will likely be a thing that happens in the next decade or so.
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On September 09 2017 09:46 kollin wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2017 09:40 warding wrote:On September 09 2017 09:26 kollin wrote:On September 09 2017 09:17 KwarK wrote:On September 09 2017 09:08 kollin wrote:On September 09 2017 09:07 sc-darkness wrote:On September 09 2017 09:05 kollin wrote:On September 09 2017 09:01 sc-darkness wrote:On September 09 2017 08:59 kollin wrote:On September 09 2017 08:55 sc-darkness wrote:
[quote]
What do you work? Are you a doctor, a physicist, a mathematician, an austronaut, etc? How do you contribute? As much as I'm pro-immigration, I think measuring anyone on 'how much they contribute' whether native or immigrant is also reprehensible. P6 is not criticising you personally, there's no need to act like it. Not only that, I think he's right - few industries seem to be further up their own arses than the tech industry. Note I work in the tech industry so I could be biased. However, I think the IT industry has truly brought innovation - computers are everywhere to help people. What can't this be acknowledged? If you don't believe that IT has brought high level of innovation, then PLEASE specify another field where innovation is at a high level. I'm OK with that. I'm not OK with "blah blah IT tech industry is overrated". Of course the tech industry has produced a lot of innovation. I still think, as a whole, it is placed on too high a pedestal by some people and there's a culture of worship by some around it that I think is excessive. Especially when I look at the 'leaders' in tech eg Musk, the Google guys etc, I can't help but feel people idolise them far too much. Well, maybe. I don't follow them as much so I don't know. I suppose it's refreshing and exciting for some people to get new technology. I find astronomy impressive though. That has also brought some nice innovation and research. I'm a bigggg space nerd so I definitely understand what you mean. I think Plansix is more talking about Silicon Valley types that really aren't providing THAT much to society while calling themselves 'Leaders in Innovation' or whatever. If you trust the market they're providing an awful lot to society. I think the value of the information age is difficult to really properly quantify. Take my field. The vast, vast majority of all accounting work that was done a few decades ago is now done by software, and on a far greater scale than could possibly have been imagined back then. Technology has created an army of hundreds of millions of virtual skilled accountants that have been mobilized productively. The amount of economic activity attributable directly to tech is breathtaking. I'd very easily believe that economic productivity attributable solely to tech from the last 20 years is greater than the entire economic productivity that preexisted it, that we've successfully leveraged our labour at a greater than 2:1 ratio. Oh undoubtedly it's an amazing asset economically (even if none of the companies seem to pay taxes or ensure workers at their supply shops are paid properly). I more just wonder if Silicon Valley gives people a lot of things that they clearly want (the value of some companies attest to this), even if they aren't that beneficial to society. Uber and Deliveroo are some examples that come to mind. I've seen a study showing Uber to be vastly more efficient than taxis (much higher % of time and of miles driven with a passenger). That's clearly beneficial to society over the previous status quo. It's easy to see how Airbnb is also incredibly beneficial - opening up an industry from concentrated hotel chains into hundreds of thousands (millions?) of home owners, all the while driving down prices. There are thousands upon thousands of similar examples with varying degrres of magnitude of impact. sc-darkness thereare promising technologies coming up in those fields but they really haven't changed the industries all that much. Do note that four medical I'm only referring to digital technologies. Uber has also brought about a fairly shitty age of gig economy jobs. Arguably these always existed through cash in hand jobs, Craigslist and whatever, but I still have the gut feeling that Uber had legitimised the gig economy like nothing before it. Maybe the gig economy is more a symptom of problems in society, but nevertheless I think if you look at companies like Uber from a different angle the value they provide to society is less clear.
As a quick addition to what I said, I'm not sure if measuring worth in the way that I'm describing is even possible or worthwhile. Like trying to measure the impact of video games on society overall would be impossible, and ultimately kind of pointless as they are here to stay regardless. The same goes with the tech industry.
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United States44242 Posts
On September 09 2017 09:43 Plansix wrote:
But their productive has not increased on any substantial level. Tech as not transformed from the foundation up. My wife works in healthcare, digital records are not all they are cracked up to be. Construction is still construction. Power lines are still power lines.
It can't be isolated like that. You think any building being built now wasn't designed with software? You think the construction materials didn't come from a factory with significant amounts of automation?
Sure, you still need an architect and a structural engineer, no different than you did 30 years ago. But the kind of work they're doing is completely different to what it was then. Even in healthcare the kind of work being performed has changed.
That people still do the job is the wrong thing to measure. You need to look at what kind of work is being done on the job, compared to before, what your expectation was for that labour. The same professionals may be involved but they're doing many times more work and in a far more productive way.
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On September 09 2017 09:52 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On September 09 2017 09:43 Plansix wrote:
But their productive has not increased on any substantial level. Tech as not transformed from the foundation up. My wife works in healthcare, digital records are not all they are cracked up to be. Construction is still construction. Power lines are still power lines. It can't be isolated like that. You think any building being built now wasn't designed with software? You think the construction materials didn't come from a factory with significant amounts of automation? Sure, you still need an architect and a structural engineer, no different than you did 30 years ago. But the kind of work they're doing is completely different to what it was then. Even in healthcare the kind of work being performed has changed. That people still do the job is the wrong thing to measure. You need to look at what kind of work is being done on the job, compared to before, what your expectation was for that labour. The same professionals may be involved but they're doing many times more work and in a far more productive way.
But that is how we measure productively and how much faster it happens. How much more than one person do. Computers are great and have increased productivity. But they are the telephone or the assembly line. They will not beat the mass market automobile or electrical grid. Computers have improved some aspects of many industries, but some has just changed. I work in a field that is almost untouched by technology, beyond that we struggle to clean up after it most of the time. I still use a type writer and fax machines.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/91qsdcm.jpg)
