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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. |
WASHINGTON -- Republican leaders decided Tuesday that the United States must pay its bills and raise its debt limit with no strings attached, but will leave the politically unpopular step mostly to Democrats.
Republicans since 2010 have tied raising the borrowing cap, which currently stands at $17 trillion, to certain cuts, setting off a series of standoffs resulting in a sequestration deal in 2011 and last year's government shutdown.
The debt ceiling is the maximum amount the Treasury Department may borrow to pay for spending programs that Congress has already authorized. Up until the last several years, the majority party in each chamber had taken the responsibility of raising it.
Speaking to reporters on Capitol Hill, House Speaker John Boehner (R-Ohio) said his members would not shoulder that burden, but he hoped to find 18 of them to join 200 Democrats to get the job done.
"The fact is, we'll let the Democrats put the votes up," Boehner said. "We'll put a minimum amount of votes up to get it passed."
Boehner added it was a "disappointing moment," because President Barack Obama is unwilling to negotiate over spending reforms in exchange for raising the debt limit. "Let his party give him the debt ceiling increase that he wants," Boehner said. House Minority Leader Rep. Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.) told Boehner she'll deliver the votes, he said.
Obama and congressional Democrats have been adamant that any debt-ceiling hike be "clean." In recent weeks, GOP leaders tried to tie the debt ceiling to various provisions, including a repeal of the Obamacare risk corridors provision and the Keystone XL pipeline, but abandoned those efforts amid wavering support.
Source
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Can someone please explain to me what the point of the debt ceiling is, and why approving the budget is insufficient, and the debt ceiling needs to be raised at regular intervals IN ADDITION to the budget being approved?
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The debt ceiling is the state equivalent of giving yourself a $5000 credit limit on your credit card. If you are at that $5000 limit and you need to eat or buy a tank of gas to get work you usually have no problems allowing yourself to go a little bit over it. The Republicans believe we have been saying the too often and and the 5000 balance is now sitting at 10000, they want to tie that ability to go to 11000 with budget cuts like less food, less gas, and a smaller home. Today's news was backing off as their proposals have been hyperbolized as wanting to starve, be homeless and not go into work and that is politically unpopular. So they just raised their arms and said "fine go to 11000, even though we have been over-budget for too long our eyes."
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On February 12 2014 05:34 Acrofales wrote:
Can someone please explain to me what the point of the debt ceiling is, and why approving the budget is insufficient, and the debt ceiling needs to be raised at regular intervals IN ADDITION to the budget being approved?
Its a way for the legislative branch to grand stand and blame the executive for being 'spendthrifts' who will 'bankrupt america' in the hopes that most Americans are too stupid that the legislature passes the budget. So the same Republicans who in 2002 said deficits are meaningless are the same that saying America is a dollar away from being Greece.
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The outside tea party-aligned group Senate Conservatives Fund is calling for House Speaker John Boehner (R-OH) to be replaced in response to House Republican leadership's decision to push a clean debt ceiling hike.
The powerful outside group's call came in an email to supporters on Tuesday, shortly after House Republicans announced that they would give up on previous demands for a debt ceiling extension and instead support a clean hike. In the email Senate Conservatives Fund Executive Director Matt Hoskins wrote:
Republicans are giving up because they know that winning is impossible when their leaders are determined to lose. These leaders have telegraphed weakness to the Democrats and sabotaged conservative efforts so many times that Republicans now have no leverage. There's only one solution.
John Boehner must be replaced as Speaker of the House.
Hoskins goes on to warn that Republicans will never have any leverage if Boehner stays as Speaker.
"Unless we install a new leader who will actually go on offense, Democrats will never fear us and we will never have any leverage," Hoskins continued in the email.
The group has previously accused Boehner of aggressively targeting conservatives.
Source
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On February 12 2014 06:15 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:Show nested quote +The outside tea party-aligned group Senate Conservatives Fund is calling for House Speaker John Boehner (R-OH) to be replaced in response to House Republican leadership's decision to push a clean debt ceiling hike.
The powerful outside group's call came in an email to supporters on Tuesday, shortly after House Republicans announced that they would give up on previous demands for a debt ceiling extension and instead support a clean hike. In the email Senate Conservatives Fund Executive Director Matt Hoskins wrote:
Republicans are giving up because they know that winning is impossible when their leaders are determined to lose. These leaders have telegraphed weakness to the Democrats and sabotaged conservative efforts so many times that Republicans now have no leverage. There's only one solution.
John Boehner must be replaced as Speaker of the House.
Hoskins goes on to warn that Republicans will never have any leverage if Boehner stays as Speaker.
"Unless we install a new leader who will actually go on offense, Democrats will never fear us and we will never have any leverage," Hoskins continued in the email.
The group has previously accused Boehner of aggressively targeting conservatives. Source
It's because there's zero fear that Boehner will actually use the power that the Congress has... pass a budget and immediately recess. He's conceding everything to the Senate and the President. Congress is supposed to have the "Power of the Purse" and they are just giving it away.
I mean even for just 3 days just to scare the Dems. Pass a budget and recess.
You can always come back in session.
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On February 12 2014 06:21 RCMDVA wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2014 06:15 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:The outside tea party-aligned group Senate Conservatives Fund is calling for House Speaker John Boehner (R-OH) to be replaced in response to House Republican leadership's decision to push a clean debt ceiling hike.
The powerful outside group's call came in an email to supporters on Tuesday, shortly after House Republicans announced that they would give up on previous demands for a debt ceiling extension and instead support a clean hike. In the email Senate Conservatives Fund Executive Director Matt Hoskins wrote:
Republicans are giving up because they know that winning is impossible when their leaders are determined to lose. These leaders have telegraphed weakness to the Democrats and sabotaged conservative efforts so many times that Republicans now have no leverage. There's only one solution.
John Boehner must be replaced as Speaker of the House.
Hoskins goes on to warn that Republicans will never have any leverage if Boehner stays as Speaker.
"Unless we install a new leader who will actually go on offense, Democrats will never fear us and we will never have any leverage," Hoskins continued in the email.
The group has previously accused Boehner of aggressively targeting conservatives. Source It's because there's zero fear that Boehner will actually use the power that the Congress has... pass a budget and immediately recess. He's conceding everything to the Senate and the President. Congress is supposed to have the "Power of the Purse" and they are just giving it away. I mean even for just 3 days just to scare the Dems. Pass a budget and recess. You can always come back in session.
They sorta tried that with the government shutdown. Guess how public opinion ruled on that one?
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On February 12 2014 06:23 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2014 06:21 RCMDVA wrote:On February 12 2014 06:15 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:The outside tea party-aligned group Senate Conservatives Fund is calling for House Speaker John Boehner (R-OH) to be replaced in response to House Republican leadership's decision to push a clean debt ceiling hike.
The powerful outside group's call came in an email to supporters on Tuesday, shortly after House Republicans announced that they would give up on previous demands for a debt ceiling extension and instead support a clean hike. In the email Senate Conservatives Fund Executive Director Matt Hoskins wrote:
Republicans are giving up because they know that winning is impossible when their leaders are determined to lose. These leaders have telegraphed weakness to the Democrats and sabotaged conservative efforts so many times that Republicans now have no leverage. There's only one solution.
John Boehner must be replaced as Speaker of the House.
Hoskins goes on to warn that Republicans will never have any leverage if Boehner stays as Speaker.
"Unless we install a new leader who will actually go on offense, Democrats will never fear us and we will never have any leverage," Hoskins continued in the email.
The group has previously accused Boehner of aggressively targeting conservatives. Source It's because there's zero fear that Boehner will actually use the power that the Congress has... pass a budget and immediately recess. He's conceding everything to the Senate and the President. Congress is supposed to have the "Power of the Purse" and they are just giving it away. I mean even for just 3 days just to scare the Dems. Pass a budget and recess. You can always come back in session. They sorta tried that with the government shutdown. Guess how public opinion ruled on that one?
Totally different. Government would be funded effectively, there wouldn't be a shutdown.. a budget was "passed" (only in the House). Just Senate/President couldn't do much to change it.
The Republicans inthe House would 100% get their way. Now what price would there be in the midterms who knows.
Edit : I mean this... if we are playing the game "Brinksmanship"... and I know for a fact you will never play the last card in your hand... I will never lose that game.
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
On February 12 2014 05:34 Acrofales wrote:
Can someone please explain to me what the point of the debt ceiling is, and why approving the budget is insufficient, and the debt ceiling needs to be raised at regular intervals IN ADDITION to the budget being approved?
it's a derpy relic that was used to facilitate hostage taking.
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On February 12 2014 05:34 Acrofales wrote:
Can someone please explain to me what the point of the debt ceiling is, and why approving the budget is insufficient, and the debt ceiling needs to be raised at regular intervals IN ADDITION to the budget being approved?
The US government has a maximum debt it is allowed to carry at any given point in time, the purpose of this was to originally inspire cuts to keep the US under this limit but since not paying bills isn't an option and cutting 500B (a year) at once is a terrible idea. Basically it is an outdated idea but no one wants to put forth the unpopular idea of abolishing the debt limit so it exists only to exist.
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Folks would hear "abolish the debt limit" and promptly lose their fuckin minds unfortunately.
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On February 12 2014 06:21 RCMDVA wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2014 06:15 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:The outside tea party-aligned group Senate Conservatives Fund is calling for House Speaker John Boehner (R-OH) to be replaced in response to House Republican leadership's decision to push a clean debt ceiling hike.
The powerful outside group's call came in an email to supporters on Tuesday, shortly after House Republicans announced that they would give up on previous demands for a debt ceiling extension and instead support a clean hike. In the email Senate Conservatives Fund Executive Director Matt Hoskins wrote:
Republicans are giving up because they know that winning is impossible when their leaders are determined to lose. These leaders have telegraphed weakness to the Democrats and sabotaged conservative efforts so many times that Republicans now have no leverage. There's only one solution.
John Boehner must be replaced as Speaker of the House.
Hoskins goes on to warn that Republicans will never have any leverage if Boehner stays as Speaker.
"Unless we install a new leader who will actually go on offense, Democrats will never fear us and we will never have any leverage," Hoskins continued in the email.
The group has previously accused Boehner of aggressively targeting conservatives. Source It's because there's zero fear that Boehner will actually use the power that the Congress has... pass a budget and immediately recess. He's conceding everything to the Senate and the President. Congress is supposed to have the "Power of the Purse" and they are just giving it away. I mean even for just 3 days just to scare the Dems. Pass a budget and recess. You can always come back in session.
He tried not blinking last time and what happened was the government shut down everyone realized it was the fault of house republicans they took a massive public hit and had lowest poll numbers they had in the past 3 years in power.
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On February 12 2014 07:16 farvacola wrote:
Folks would hear "abolish the debt limit" and promptly lose their fuckin minds unfortunately.
Many of them also seem to be ignorant of the fact that raising the debt ceiling has nothing to do with new spending and has everything to do with paying for spending that has already been approved.
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wtf is their fetish with the debt limit. it was raised 18 times during reagan, their god-king's reign.
not to mention the fact obama's almost halved the deficit during his presidency, their craze has no reason
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On February 12 2014 07:50 Roe wrote:
wtf is their fetish with the debt limit. it was raised 18 times during reagan, their god-king's reign.
not to mention the fact obama's almost halved the deficit during his presidency, their craze has no reason
There fetish is that its not them with the presidency. Same for both sides really. One is just more willing to blow up the country over not being 'it'
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On February 12 2014 07:17 Adreme wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2014 06:21 RCMDVA wrote:On February 12 2014 06:15 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:The outside tea party-aligned group Senate Conservatives Fund is calling for House Speaker John Boehner (R-OH) to be replaced in response to House Republican leadership's decision to push a clean debt ceiling hike.
The powerful outside group's call came in an email to supporters on Tuesday, shortly after House Republicans announced that they would give up on previous demands for a debt ceiling extension and instead support a clean hike. In the email Senate Conservatives Fund Executive Director Matt Hoskins wrote:
Republicans are giving up because they know that winning is impossible when their leaders are determined to lose. These leaders have telegraphed weakness to the Democrats and sabotaged conservative efforts so many times that Republicans now have no leverage. There's only one solution.
John Boehner must be replaced as Speaker of the House.
Hoskins goes on to warn that Republicans will never have any leverage if Boehner stays as Speaker.
"Unless we install a new leader who will actually go on offense, Democrats will never fear us and we will never have any leverage," Hoskins continued in the email.
The group has previously accused Boehner of aggressively targeting conservatives. Source It's because there's zero fear that Boehner will actually use the power that the Congress has... pass a budget and immediately recess. He's conceding everything to the Senate and the President. Congress is supposed to have the "Power of the Purse" and they are just giving it away. I mean even for just 3 days just to scare the Dems. Pass a budget and recess. You can always come back in session. He tried not blinking last time and what happened was the government shut down everyone realized it was the fault of house republicans they took a massive public hit and had lowest poll numbers they had in the past 3 years in power.
That's ultimately the problem. When the government shuts down or defaults on debt obligations, serious issues arise for everybody on the outside. Damage is caused to the entire country in one way or another, and the fault slowly piles up on those with the additional demands attached to what is causing the harm. Further, the damage being done in these cases of "hostage taking" has overwhelmingly been the financial base of the Republican party. Businesses take a HUGE blow from a government shut down, while financial players take HUGE losses from a default. When the "grass roots" movement of the Republican party cause real damage to the actual meat of the party, the party is going to be hurt, a LOT.
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
the debt ceiling fiasco is basically the most reviled political event in modern history among even rightwing economists
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They pass the Public Debt Acts to give the treasury a little flexibility handling debts, where prior that was constitutionally (Article 1) given to Congress for every debt. Delegate a little power to the treasury, keep the reigns in Congress, so to speak. Now its just part of the brinkmanship doctrine; Republican leadership promising their base to raise a fight at the next debt ceiling and budget ... hoping the more gullible of their electorate gives them a pass when they refuse to fight on big spending bills. It's not the right way to go about it, but in today's demonization regime, it is supposed to avoid some of those wild accusations on spending bills that Republicans are against the poor, the aged, children, etc.
Last full fiscal year Bush was in office, deficit stood at 458.6 billion (CBO). Quick reminder, stimulus was February 2009, the month after Obama was inaugurated. CBO's final release for 2012 declares it at $1.087 trillion. We'll see if 2013's revised figures writes Obama's 5year success story. Until then, Obama increased the deficit by 628$ billion in first 4 years in office.
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On February 12 2014 08:14 Danglars wrote:
They pass the Public Debt Acts to give the treasury a little flexibility handling debts, where prior that was constitutionally (Article 1) given to Congress for every debt. Delegate a little power to the treasury, keep the reigns in Congress, so to speak. Now its just part of the brinkmanship doctrine; Republican leadership promising their base to raise a fight at the next debt ceiling and budget ... hoping the more gullible of their electorate gives them a pass when they refuse to fight on big spending bills. It's not the right way to go about it, but in today's demonization regime, it is supposed to avoid some of those wild accusations on spending bills that Republicans are against the poor, the aged, children, etc.
Last full fiscal year Bush was in office, deficit stood at 458.6 billion (CBO). Quick reminder, stimulus was February 2009, the month after Obama was inaugurated. CBO's final release for 2012 declares it at $1.087 trillion. We'll see if 2013's revised figures writes Obama's 5year success story. Until then, Obama increased the deficit by 628$ billion in first 4 years in office.
The phrase "last full year in office" is a creative way of ignoring the fact that the overwhelming part of that budget was entirely on Bush. In fact of that 1.4T deficit from his final year and part of Obamas first only 200B was considered from the stimulus So 1.2T of the deficit was entirely from the former presidents budget and not the current presidents one.
I know quoting 400B to 1T sounds nicer when saying its Obamas fault that the deficit went up but a fairer comparison is 1.2T (1.4-200B for stimulus) to 1T and I believe 400-600B this year so he cut the deficit in half is a more fair way of saying it.
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On February 12 2014 08:14 Danglars wrote:
They pass the Public Debt Acts to give the treasury a little flexibility handling debts, where prior that was constitutionally (Article 1) given to Congress for every debt. Delegate a little power to the treasury, keep the reigns in Congress, so to speak. Now its just part of the brinkmanship doctrine; Republican leadership promising their base to raise a fight at the next debt ceiling and budget ... hoping the more gullible of their electorate gives them a pass when they refuse to fight on big spending bills. It's not the right way to go about it, but in today's demonization regime, it is supposed to avoid some of those wild accusations on spending bills that Republicans are against the poor, the aged, children, etc.
Last full fiscal year Bush was in office, deficit stood at 458.6 billion (CBO). Quick reminder, stimulus was February 2009, the month after Obama was inaugurated. CBO's final release for 2012 declares it at $1.087 trillion. We'll see if 2013's revised figures writes Obama's 5year success story. Until then, Obama increased the deficit by 628$ billion in first 4 years in office.
Damn Obama (and Congress) for not forcing people to starve during hard economic times!
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EPT
