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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. |
On September 04 2017 10:26 warding wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2017 10:04 LegalLord wrote:On September 04 2017 09:46 warding wrote: I've yet to hear anyone with a decent grasp of economics provide reasonable arguments against TPP. Sad to see anti-intellectualism gangbang a scientific subject like that from both political sides. Beyond a dismissive tidbit claiming that whoever disagrees with you is just part of an anti-intellectual gangbang, got any substance to add to the matter? My claim is that no reasonable economic arguments have been offered against tpp in what It's essentially am economic subject. It's a long standing consensus in economics that free trade benefits economies overall. Estimates showed it to have a positive effect: http://www.iie.com/publications/wp/wp16-2.pdf. Arguments about job displacement make little sense in an economy running on full employment. Finally, more open borders is generally bad for corporations since it means more competition, and better for consumers. I'm parroting economics 101 here but if one's making the case against a trade deal, you really have to start here. I'm not expecting to convince you LL. I think you just want to watch the world burn. The arguments against it that I find the most convincing are political.
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On September 04 2017 10:21 Falling wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2017 07:48 zlefin wrote:that doesn't change my points at all. but noted. preventing governments from making laws according to stupid unsound whims of their electorate is one of the points in general; so it doesn't really serve as a counterpoint. as making laws according to the electorate is not an innately good thing. How does it not serve as a counterpoint? You were dismissing the issue of sovereignty, but if it is the case that corporations can bully another country through tribunals and lawsuits (like how Canada has been so often sued), then regardless of your opinion of the electorate, is that not an issue of sovereignty?... even if the country was a tyrannical regime. The sovereignty issue would be the same no matter the system of government because it's a corporation strong arming the government. And I think generally, having your own country sued by a foreign company is an innately bad thing, even if making laws according to the electorate is not an innately good thing (is this an argument for an technocracy?) If ISDS provisions aren't in the interest of the states who sign onto them then why would they agree to them at all?
I'm not an expert in international trade law but what exactly is the argument against the case that ISDS reduce political risk and thus increase trade and foreign investment, which is generally positive to all involved?
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On September 04 2017 10:28 kollin wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2017 10:26 warding wrote:On September 04 2017 10:04 LegalLord wrote:On September 04 2017 09:46 warding wrote: I've yet to hear anyone with a decent grasp of economics provide reasonable arguments against TPP. Sad to see anti-intellectualism gangbang a scientific subject like that from both political sides. Beyond a dismissive tidbit claiming that whoever disagrees with you is just part of an anti-intellectual gangbang, got any substance to add to the matter? My claim is that no reasonable economic arguments have been offered against tpp in what It's essentially am economic subject. It's a long standing consensus in economics that free trade benefits economies overall. Estimates showed it to have a positive effect: http://www.iie.com/publications/wp/wp16-2.pdf. Arguments about job displacement make little sense in an economy running on full employment. Finally, more open borders is generally bad for corporations since it means more competition, and better for consumers. I'm parroting economics 101 here but if one's making the case against a trade deal, you really have to start here. I'm not expecting to convince you LL. I think you just want to watch the world burn. The arguments against it that I find the most convincing are political. So... creating closer ties with East Asian countries is a bad thing for the US?
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On September 04 2017 10:36 warding wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2017 10:21 Falling wrote:On September 04 2017 07:48 zlefin wrote:that doesn't change my points at all. but noted. preventing governments from making laws according to stupid unsound whims of their electorate is one of the points in general; so it doesn't really serve as a counterpoint. as making laws according to the electorate is not an innately good thing. How does it not serve as a counterpoint? You were dismissing the issue of sovereignty, but if it is the case that corporations can bully another country through tribunals and lawsuits (like how Canada has been so often sued), then regardless of your opinion of the electorate, is that not an issue of sovereignty?... even if the country was a tyrannical regime. The sovereignty issue would be the same no matter the system of government because it's a corporation strong arming the government. And I think generally, having your own country sued by a foreign company is an innately bad thing, even if making laws according to the electorate is not an innately good thing (is this an argument for an technocracy?) If ISDS provisions aren't in the interest of the states who sign onto them then why would they agree to them at all? I'm not an expert in international trade law but what exactly is the argument against the case that ISDS reduce political risk and thus increase trade and foreign investment, which is generally positive to all involved? Because states themselves aren't acting at all - it is the people who control those states. Now I'm sure I don't need to explain why or under what sort of pressures from outside interests that it would take for individuals in government to do something against the interests of the vast majority of people in their nation.
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United States41991 Posts
On September 04 2017 10:21 Falling wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2017 07:48 zlefin wrote:that doesn't change my points at all. but noted. preventing governments from making laws according to stupid unsound whims of their electorate is one of the points in general; so it doesn't really serve as a counterpoint. as making laws according to the electorate is not an innately good thing. How does it not serve as a counterpoint? You were dismissing the issue of sovereignty, but if it is the case that corporations can bully another country through tribunals and lawsuits (like how Canada has been so often sued), then regardless of your opinion of the electorate, is that not an issue of sovereignty?... even if the country was a tyrannical regime. The sovereignty issue would be the same no matter the system of government because it's a corporation strong arming the government. And I think generally, having your own country sued by a foreign company is an innately bad thing, even if making laws according to the electorate is not an innately good thing (is this an argument for an technocracy?) Foreign corporations cannot bully a sovereign nation. Sovereign nations agree to enforce supranational agreements within their borders because they believe the benefits to doing so outweigh the costs. But it is always the sovereign nation imposing the agreements upon themselves, never an external force.
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On September 04 2017 10:37 warding wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2017 10:28 kollin wrote:On September 04 2017 10:26 warding wrote:On September 04 2017 10:04 LegalLord wrote:On September 04 2017 09:46 warding wrote: I've yet to hear anyone with a decent grasp of economics provide reasonable arguments against TPP. Sad to see anti-intellectualism gangbang a scientific subject like that from both political sides. Beyond a dismissive tidbit claiming that whoever disagrees with you is just part of an anti-intellectual gangbang, got any substance to add to the matter? My claim is that no reasonable economic arguments have been offered against tpp in what It's essentially am economic subject. It's a long standing consensus in economics that free trade benefits economies overall. Estimates showed it to have a positive effect: http://www.iie.com/publications/wp/wp16-2.pdf. Arguments about job displacement make little sense in an economy running on full employment. Finally, more open borders is generally bad for corporations since it means more competition, and better for consumers. I'm parroting economics 101 here but if one's making the case against a trade deal, you really have to start here. I'm not expecting to convince you LL. I think you just want to watch the world burn. The arguments against it that I find the most convincing are political. So... creating closer ties with East Asian countries is a bad thing for the US? Damn it you got me the wonders of Socratic questioning prove my idiocy again
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On September 04 2017 10:21 Falling wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2017 07:48 zlefin wrote:that doesn't change my points at all. but noted. preventing governments from making laws according to stupid unsound whims of their electorate is one of the points in general; so it doesn't really serve as a counterpoint. as making laws according to the electorate is not an innately good thing. How does it not serve as a counterpoint? You were dismissing the issue of sovereignty, but if it is the case that corporations can bully another country through tribunals and lawsuits (like how Canada has been so often sued), then regardless of your opinion of the electorate, is that not an issue of sovereignty?... even if the country was a tyrannical regime. The sovereignty issue would be the same no matter the system of government because it's a corporation strong arming the government. And I think generally, having your own country sued by a foreign company is an innately bad thing, even if making laws according to the electorate is not an innately good thing (is this an argument for an technocracy?) I was dismissing the ridiculously broad sovereignty claim: "It would have removed the sovereignty of every nation involved and raise international corporations to the status of nation states"
you've failed to establish that canada is being bullied, or that anyone is being bullied. you presented an article, which does not remotely prove that thesis. it proves it has been most sued. it does not prove that those suits were actually wrong. it does not prove that the costs outweighed the benefits of the trade deal. it does not prove that the suits were actually a serious problem in the larger picture. it also does not establish a loss of sovereignty. Here's the key point which shows there's no loss of sovereignty: you can withdraw from the trade agreement, at will, and nobody can stop you. it's no different from establishing any other court which has jurisdiction to handle disputes. the sovereignty still rests with the group that established the court. and they can also end the court if they so choose.
the claim that having your country sued by a foreign company is innately bad is absurd on its face. If a country decides to harass a foreign company, in violation of that country's own laws, for no other reason than disliking them personally, then i don't see how you could call that an innately bad thing. now, I note you said generally; which does allow quite a bit of leeway; but it also means you'd still need to establish that it's true generally, which would take more than a few random anecdotes. furthermore, a treaty means a country decided to make something part of its own law, so if the country violates the terms of the treaty, they're violating their own law. How is it unreasonable to sue a country for violating their own laws in a way that hurts you? That kind of dispute resolution is exactly what lawsuits are for. and i'ts hardly uncommon for countries' to violate their own laws; they do it all the time, and get sued by domestic groups for those violations. what's wrong with allowing foreign groups that same option?
on the whims of the electorate/law thing, it's simply a fact. You could also use it as an argument for technocracy; but herein it's simply presented as the fact that it is.
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On September 04 2017 10:41 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2017 10:21 Falling wrote:On September 04 2017 07:48 zlefin wrote:that doesn't change my points at all. but noted. preventing governments from making laws according to stupid unsound whims of their electorate is one of the points in general; so it doesn't really serve as a counterpoint. as making laws according to the electorate is not an innately good thing. How does it not serve as a counterpoint? You were dismissing the issue of sovereignty, but if it is the case that corporations can bully another country through tribunals and lawsuits (like how Canada has been so often sued), then regardless of your opinion of the electorate, is that not an issue of sovereignty?... even if the country was a tyrannical regime. The sovereignty issue would be the same no matter the system of government because it's a corporation strong arming the government. And I think generally, having your own country sued by a foreign company is an innately bad thing, even if making laws according to the electorate is not an innately good thing (is this an argument for an technocracy?) Foreign corporations cannot bully a sovereign nation. Sovereign nations agree to enforce supranational agreements within their borders because they believe the benefits to doing so outweigh the costs. But it is always the sovereign nation imposing the agreements upon themselves, never an external force. The argument against ISDS only makes sense if you presume that those in government and the people of a nations interests aren't always aligned, if that makes sense.
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So corporations have bought off all these states, from the US to Canada to South Korea and Brunei Darussalam, in the hopes that they one day invest in a factory in Manila, face competition from a state-owned enterprise and get to sue the Philippines in an arbitration court they'll presumably buy off too?
I mean, when it comes to corrupting politics I'm sure there are way easier and more profitable ways to go.
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On September 04 2017 10:46 warding wrote: So corporations have bought off all these states, from the US to Canada to South Korea and Brunei Darussalam, in the hopes that they one day invest in a factory in Manila, face competition from a state-owned enterprise and get to sue the Philippines in an arbitration court they'll presumably buy off too?
I mean, when it comes to corrupting politics I'm sure there are way easier and more profitable ways to go. Are you actually questioning the influence of corporate money in politics, and denying that could have ANY sort of influence in the decisions of secret, private arbitration courts or in the drafting of legislation to regulate them?
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On September 04 2017 10:49 kollin wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2017 10:46 warding wrote: So corporations have bought off all these states, from the US to Canada to South Korea and Brunei Darussalam, in the hopes that they one day invest in a factory in Manila, face competition from a state-owned enterprise and get to sue the Philippines in an arbitration court they'll presumably buy off too?
I mean, when it comes to corrupting politics I'm sure there are way easier and more profitable ways to go. Are you actually questioning the influence of corporate money in politics, and denying that could have ANY sort of influence in the decisions of secret, private arbitration courts or in the drafting of legislation to regulate them? I'm questioning whether they would influence it for that specific nefarious purpose.
You know what I think is far more common? Corporations buying off politicians to limit trade and protect them against competition.
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On September 04 2017 10:52 warding wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2017 10:49 kollin wrote:On September 04 2017 10:46 warding wrote: So corporations have bought off all these states, from the US to Canada to South Korea and Brunei Darussalam, in the hopes that they one day invest in a factory in Manila, face competition from a state-owned enterprise and get to sue the Philippines in an arbitration court they'll presumably buy off too?
I mean, when it comes to corrupting politics I'm sure there are way easier and more profitable ways to go. Are you actually questioning the influence of corporate money in politics, and denying that could have ANY sort of influence in the decisions of secret, private arbitration courts or in the drafting of legislation to regulate them? I'm questioning whether they would influence it for that specific nefarious purpose. You know what I think is far more common? Corporations buying off politicians to limit trade and protect them against competition. I can name examples of them doing so - I read an article a little while back that mentioned a tobacco company suing Australia over their legislature changing the packaging on cig packets.
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On September 04 2017 10:55 kollin wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2017 10:52 warding wrote:On September 04 2017 10:49 kollin wrote:On September 04 2017 10:46 warding wrote: So corporations have bought off all these states, from the US to Canada to South Korea and Brunei Darussalam, in the hopes that they one day invest in a factory in Manila, face competition from a state-owned enterprise and get to sue the Philippines in an arbitration court they'll presumably buy off too?
I mean, when it comes to corrupting politics I'm sure there are way easier and more profitable ways to go. Are you actually questioning the influence of corporate money in politics, and denying that could have ANY sort of influence in the decisions of secret, private arbitration courts or in the drafting of legislation to regulate them? I'm questioning whether they would influence it for that specific nefarious purpose. You know what I think is far more common? Corporations buying off politicians to limit trade and protect them against competition. I can name examples of them doing so - I read an article a little while back that mentioned a tobacco company suing Australia over their legislature changing the packaging on cig packets. Unless that article talks about how t hat tobacco company bought off Australia's political bodies, how is that an example of what we're talking about?
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President Donald Trump has decided to end the Obama-era program that grants work permits to undocumented immigrants who arrived in the country as children, according to two sources familiar with his thinking. Senior White House aides huddled Sunday afternoon to discuss the rollout of a decision likely to ignite a political firestorm — and fulfill one of the president’s core campaign promises.
Trump has wrestled for months with whether to do away with the Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals, known as DACA. He has faced strong warnings from members of his own party not to scrap the program and struggled with his own misgivings about targeting minors for deportation.
Conversations with Attorney General Jeff Sessions, who argued that Congress — rather than the executive branch — is responsible for writing immigration law, helped persuade the president to terminate the program, the two sources said, though White House aides caution that — as with everything in the Trump White House — nothing is set in stone until an official announcement has been made.
In a nod to reservations held by many lawmakers, the White House plans to delay the enforcement of the president’s decision for six months, giving Congress a window to act, according to one White House official. But a senior White House aide said that chief of staff John Kelly, who has been running the West Wing policy process on the issue, “thinks Congress should’ve gotten its act together a lot longer ago.”
Trump is expected to announce his decision on Tuesday, and the White House informed House Speaker Paul Ryan of the president’s decision on Sunday morning, according to a source close to the administration. Ryan had said during a radio interview on Friday that he didn’t think the president should terminate DACA, and that Congress should act on the issue. http://www.politico.com/story/2017/09/03/trump-dreamers-immigration-daca-immigrants-242301
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Canada11279 Posts
@zlefin.
Most of the cases have to do with environmental protection. So our government tries to put certain protections in place- banning suspected neurotoxins, environmental panels blocking quarry and marine terminal in environmentally sensitive areas, temporary ban on fracking activities until further studies were completed on the impact under the St Lawrence River, three Canadian courts denying a patent extension. I would like to think a sovereign nation is in the right to require what it believes to be necessary environmental protections on its own land. Its not like foreign companies have historically demonstrated a particular interest in that area.
The fact of the matter is any environmental protection required could potentially interfere with company profits and therefore be seen as "harass(ing) a foreign company, in violation of that country's own laws, for no other reason than disliking them personally". But it doesn't stand to reason that this is the case in the majority, but there certainly is always a financial cost, and for the company that is the entire thing. A government is hopefully thinking a little more broadly.
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Circling way back, this is why I cited Wikipedia, because it has both the pro and the con studies.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trans-Pacific_Partnership
The U.S. International Trade Commission,[17] the Peterson Institute for International Economics, the World Bank and the Office of the Chief Economist at Global Affairs Canada found that the final agreement would, if ratified, lead to net positive economic outcomes for all signatories, while a heterodox analysis by two Tufts University economists found that the agreement would adversely affect the signatories.
Here is the thorough and normal analysis. + Show Spoiler +https://piie.com/publications/piie-briefings/assessing-trans-pacific-partnership-volume-2-innovations-trading-rulesBetween 2017 and 2026, when most of the adjustment to the TPP occurs, the costs to workers who will be displaced, both from unemployment and lower future wages will amount to about 6 percent of the benefi ts estimated by Petri and Plummer. Over this period the TPP will have an average benefi t-cost ratio of 18:1. After 2026, when the economy will have almost fully responded to the TPP, the adjustment costs fall to far less than 1 percent of overall benefi ts, implying that the Petri-Plummer estimates of benefi ts in 2030 are basically unaf-fected by adjustment costs. For the full adjustment period Petri and Plummer consider (2017–30), the benefi ts are more than 100 times the costs. Here is the one negative study http://www.ase.tufts.edu/gdae/Pubs/wp/16-01Capaldo-IzurietaTPP.pdf
Something to keep in mind about the negative study ...
+ Show Spoiler +Harvard economist Robert Z. Lawrence says that the model used by the Tufts researchers "is simply not suited for credibly predicting the effects of the TPP" and argues that the model used by Petri and Plummer is superior.[23] Lawrence argues that the model used by the Tufts researchers "does not have the granularity that allows it to estimate variables such as exports, imports, foreign direct investment, and changes in industrial structure. As a result, its predictions ignore the benefits to the TPP economies that occur through increased specialization, the realization of scale economies, and improved consumer choice."[23] Lawrence also notes that the model used by the Tufts researchers finds that the TPP will cause GDP to fall by 5.24% in non-TPP developing countries, such as China, India, and Indonesia, which Lawrence is highly skeptical of: "It is not believable that a trade agreement of this magnitude could cause the rest of the world to plummet into recession."[23] Harvard economist Dani Rodrik, a well-known skeptic of globalization, says that the Tufts researchers do "a poor job of explaining how their model works, and the particulars of their simulation are somewhat murky... the Capaldo framework lacks sectoral and country detail; its behavioral assumptions remain opaque; and its extreme Keynesian assumptions sit uneasily with its medium-term perspective."[22]
EDIT: on the environment, TPP was a case study in HRC versus Bernie thinking. TPP was bringing USA/Euro style environmental protections to places which had nothing like them, and made them enforceable. But it didn't go far enough for the Sierra Club so they came out against TPP. Once again, true progressives would rather posture against the possible than support progress. The more normal range environmental groups supported it.
+ Show Spoiler +Morin and Baumier of the Canada Research Chair in International Political Economy (writing for the International Centre for Trade and Sustainable Development) argue that while the TPP contains an impressive number of environmental provisions and a wide range of environmental protection areas, very few of these standards are innovative, most of which being copied from previous US agreements, and that the TPP missed an opportunity to be an original and progressive contribution to the environmental agenda. However, the TPP is innovative in its utilization of a combination of the American and the European approaches in environmental protection. Indeed, in doing so, the TPP became much more detailed and specific than regular US agreements while being legally more enforceable than European agreements.
In 2013 when TPP was still being negotiated, Sierra Club's director of responsible trade, Ilana Solomon, argued that the TPP "could directly threaten our climate and our environment [including] new rights that would be given to corporations, and new constraints on the fossil fuel industry all have a huge impact on our climate, water, and land."[87] Upon the release of a draft of the Environment Chapter in January 2014, the Natural Resources Defense Council and the World Wide Fund for Nature joined with the Sierra Club in criticizing the TPP.[88] After the announcement of the United Nations Sustainable Development Goals (SDGs) on 25 September 2015 and the finalisation of the TPP a week later, critics discussed the interactions between the SDGs and the TPP. While one critic sees the TPP as providing a mixed bag of benefits and drawbacks to the SDGs,[89] another regards the TPP as being incompatible with the SDGs, highlighting that if the development provisions clash with any other aspect of the TPP, the other aspect takes priority.[90] The Friends of the Earth have spoken out against the TPP.[91][92] The White House has cited supportive statements from the World Wildlife Fund, the Nature Conservancy, the Humane Society, the Wildlife Conservation Society, Defenders of Wildlife, International Fund for Animal Welfare, World Animal Protection and other environmental groups in favor of the TPP.[93][94] The Peterson Institute for International Economics argues that the TPP is "the most environmentally friendly trade deal ever negotiated."[95] In regards to ISDS, PIIE analysts note that there is little evidence of constraints on environmental policies resulting from ISDS litigation.[96]
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On September 04 2017 11:01 Nevuk wrote:Show nested quote +President Donald Trump has decided to end the Obama-era program that grants work permits to undocumented immigrants who arrived in the country as children, according to two sources familiar with his thinking. Senior White House aides huddled Sunday afternoon to discuss the rollout of a decision likely to ignite a political firestorm — and fulfill one of the president’s core campaign promises.
Trump has wrestled for months with whether to do away with the Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals, known as DACA. He has faced strong warnings from members of his own party not to scrap the program and struggled with his own misgivings about targeting minors for deportation.
Conversations with Attorney General Jeff Sessions, who argued that Congress — rather than the executive branch — is responsible for writing immigration law, helped persuade the president to terminate the program, the two sources said, though White House aides caution that — as with everything in the Trump White House — nothing is set in stone until an official announcement has been made.
In a nod to reservations held by many lawmakers, the White House plans to delay the enforcement of the president’s decision for six months, giving Congress a window to act, according to one White House official. But a senior White House aide said that chief of staff John Kelly, who has been running the West Wing policy process on the issue, “thinks Congress should’ve gotten its act together a lot longer ago.”
Trump is expected to announce his decision on Tuesday, and the White House informed House Speaker Paul Ryan of the president’s decision on Sunday morning, according to a source close to the administration. Ryan had said during a radio interview on Friday that he didn’t think the president should terminate DACA, and that Congress should act on the issue. http://www.politico.com/story/2017/09/03/trump-dreamers-immigration-daca-immigrants-242301 It sounds like there is bipartisan support in congress for giving these people some sort of legal status. It would be a bit funny if congress ends up passing a bill that Trump has to sign after repealing the program. Or is that the intent to begin with? Hard for me to tell.
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On September 04 2017 11:17 Tachion wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2017 11:01 Nevuk wrote:President Donald Trump has decided to end the Obama-era program that grants work permits to undocumented immigrants who arrived in the country as children, according to two sources familiar with his thinking. Senior White House aides huddled Sunday afternoon to discuss the rollout of a decision likely to ignite a political firestorm — and fulfill one of the president’s core campaign promises.
Trump has wrestled for months with whether to do away with the Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals, known as DACA. He has faced strong warnings from members of his own party not to scrap the program and struggled with his own misgivings about targeting minors for deportation.
Conversations with Attorney General Jeff Sessions, who argued that Congress — rather than the executive branch — is responsible for writing immigration law, helped persuade the president to terminate the program, the two sources said, though White House aides caution that — as with everything in the Trump White House — nothing is set in stone until an official announcement has been made.
In a nod to reservations held by many lawmakers, the White House plans to delay the enforcement of the president’s decision for six months, giving Congress a window to act, according to one White House official. But a senior White House aide said that chief of staff John Kelly, who has been running the West Wing policy process on the issue, “thinks Congress should’ve gotten its act together a lot longer ago.”
Trump is expected to announce his decision on Tuesday, and the White House informed House Speaker Paul Ryan of the president’s decision on Sunday morning, according to a source close to the administration. Ryan had said during a radio interview on Friday that he didn’t think the president should terminate DACA, and that Congress should act on the issue. http://www.politico.com/story/2017/09/03/trump-dreamers-immigration-daca-immigrants-242301 It sounds like there is bipartisan support in congress for giving these people some sort of legal status. It would be a bit funny if congress ends up passing a bill that Trump has to sign after repealing the program. Or is that the intent to begin with? Hard for me to tell.
This is what I've been trying to tell people. Amnesty of some form is inches from their fingertips, assuming they can stop for 3 seconds and agree to rigorous border security. But a certain party absolutely refuses, either because of stupidity or because they think that they need to import more voters later on. The entire Democrat party and at least half of the GOP want amnesty not just for "dreamers" but for every illegal immigrant.
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On September 04 2017 10:42 zlefin wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2017 10:21 Falling wrote:On September 04 2017 07:48 zlefin wrote:that doesn't change my points at all. but noted. preventing governments from making laws according to stupid unsound whims of their electorate is one of the points in general; so it doesn't really serve as a counterpoint. as making laws according to the electorate is not an innately good thing. How does it not serve as a counterpoint? You were dismissing the issue of sovereignty, but if it is the case that corporations can bully another country through tribunals and lawsuits (like how Canada has been so often sued), then regardless of your opinion of the electorate, is that not an issue of sovereignty?... even if the country was a tyrannical regime. The sovereignty issue would be the same no matter the system of government because it's a corporation strong arming the government. And I think generally, having your own country sued by a foreign company is an innately bad thing, even if making laws according to the electorate is not an innately good thing (is this an argument for an technocracy?) I was dismissing the ridiculously broad sovereignty claim: "It would have removed the sovereignty of every nation involved and raise international corporations to the status of nation states" you've failed to establish that canada is being bullied, or that anyone is being bullied. you presented an article, which does not remotely prove that thesis. it proves it has been most sued. it does not prove that those suits were actually wrong. it does not prove that the costs outweighed the benefits of the trade deal. it does not prove that the suits were actually a serious problem in the larger picture. it also does not establish a loss of sovereignty. Here's the key point which shows there's no loss of sovereignty: you can withdraw from the trade agreement, at will, and nobody can stop you. it's no different from establishing any other court which has jurisdiction to handle disputes. the sovereignty still rests with the group that established the court. and they can also end the court if they so choose. the claim that having your country sued by a foreign company is innately bad is absurd on its face. If a country decides to harass a foreign company, in violation of that country's own laws, for no other reason than disliking them personally, then i don't see how you could call that an innately bad thing. now, I note you said generally; which does allow quite a bit of leeway; but it also means you'd still need to establish that it's true generally, which would take more than a few random anecdotes. furthermore, a treaty means a country decided to make something part of its own law, so if the country violates the terms of the treaty, they're violating their own law. How is it unreasonable to sue a country for violating their own laws in a way that hurts you? That kind of dispute resolution is exactly what lawsuits are for. and i'ts hardly uncommon for countries' to violate their own laws; they do it all the time, and get sued by domestic groups for those violations. what's wrong with allowing foreign groups that same option? on the whims of the electorate/law thing, it's simply a fact. You could also use it as an argument for technocracy; but herein it's simply presented as the fact that it is.
Who said having your country sued by a foreign company is "innately" bad? It seems to me that it's a matter of perspective and personally I don't like the idea of foreign corporations having that kind of power. Why? Because those corporations are less likely to give a shit about the people in the country, so they are more likely sue for reasons that are entirely self serving and if they win the case that money leaves the country.
You said the article doesn't prove that the suits were wrong, but assuming it can be trusted, it does show that suits can be filed for reasons other than "disliking them personally", but rather matters that affect the people who actually have to live in the country. So they might not be "innately bad" but certainly have the potential to be bad, and hence a legitimate concern.
It might be true that the benefits of the deal would outweigh the costs, but how necessary were ISDS's to the agreement? Can you prove that the specific benefits of ISDS provisions outweigh their potential costs?
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On September 04 2017 12:02 Introvert wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2017 11:17 Tachion wrote:On September 04 2017 11:01 Nevuk wrote:President Donald Trump has decided to end the Obama-era program that grants work permits to undocumented immigrants who arrived in the country as children, according to two sources familiar with his thinking. Senior White House aides huddled Sunday afternoon to discuss the rollout of a decision likely to ignite a political firestorm — and fulfill one of the president’s core campaign promises.
Trump has wrestled for months with whether to do away with the Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals, known as DACA. He has faced strong warnings from members of his own party not to scrap the program and struggled with his own misgivings about targeting minors for deportation.
Conversations with Attorney General Jeff Sessions, who argued that Congress — rather than the executive branch — is responsible for writing immigration law, helped persuade the president to terminate the program, the two sources said, though White House aides caution that — as with everything in the Trump White House — nothing is set in stone until an official announcement has been made.
In a nod to reservations held by many lawmakers, the White House plans to delay the enforcement of the president’s decision for six months, giving Congress a window to act, according to one White House official. But a senior White House aide said that chief of staff John Kelly, who has been running the West Wing policy process on the issue, “thinks Congress should’ve gotten its act together a lot longer ago.”
Trump is expected to announce his decision on Tuesday, and the White House informed House Speaker Paul Ryan of the president’s decision on Sunday morning, according to a source close to the administration. Ryan had said during a radio interview on Friday that he didn’t think the president should terminate DACA, and that Congress should act on the issue. http://www.politico.com/story/2017/09/03/trump-dreamers-immigration-daca-immigrants-242301 It sounds like there is bipartisan support in congress for giving these people some sort of legal status. It would be a bit funny if congress ends up passing a bill that Trump has to sign after repealing the program. Or is that the intent to begin with? Hard for me to tell. This is what I've been trying to tell people. Amnesty of some form is inches from their fingertips, assuming they can stop for 3 seconds and agree to rigorous border security. But a certain party absolutely refuses, either because of stupidity or because they think that they need to import more voters later on. The entire Democrat party and at least half of the GOP want amnesty not just for "dreamers" but for every illegal immigrant.
If you can actually provide evidence that "rigorous border security" isn't a huge waste of money, time, and man power then perhaps people would support it more.
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