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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
Velr
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
Switzerland10761 Posts
September 04 2017 13:05 GMT
#172741
This is not about left/right, its about market/business friendly or not.

Market/Business friendly used to be classical right wing positions, until the "right wing" went so far to the right that its now what we used to call "extreme right" (not just in the US, also in many other countries).
TheTenthDoc
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United States9561 Posts
September 04 2017 13:13 GMT
#172742
It's also increasingly difficult to clarify what the right supports, considering if Trump had drafted a near-identical agreement to TPP because, let's be real, he's gotten walked over in every negotiation he's attempted this far he would have called it amazing and his supporters (who make up a large chunk of the right) would have lapped it up.
ChristianS
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States3188 Posts
September 04 2017 15:05 GMT
#172743
On September 04 2017 22:13 TheTenthDoc wrote:
It's also increasingly difficult to clarify what the right supports, considering if Trump had drafted a near-identical agreement to TPP because, let's be real, he's gotten walked over in every negotiation he's attempted this far he would have called it amazing and his supporters (who make up a large chunk of the right) would have lapped it up.

The American right isn't defined by policy these days so much as loyalty I guess. Your place on the spectrum from center to extreme right is just a measure of how far Trump would hsve to go for you to oppose him.
"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." -Robert J. Hanlon
JonnyBNoHo
Profile Joined July 2011
United States6277 Posts
September 04 2017 15:41 GMT
#172744
On September 04 2017 22:05 Velr wrote:
This is not about left/right, its about market/business friendly or not.

Market/Business friendly used to be classical right wing positions, until the "right wing" went so far to the right that its now what we used to call "extreme right" (not just in the US, also in many other countries).

Market / business friendly & pro free trade (intrastate Europe, intra and interstate in Americas) would have been part of classical liberalism and the Enlightenment, no?

Americas were more into free trade between nations, as mercantilism was structured to favor the home country. Pretty much everyone got tired of the old within-nation boarders and tariffs.

Could be thinking of a different time period to define 'classic'...
Doodsmack
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States7224 Posts
September 04 2017 15:49 GMT
#172745
On September 04 2017 14:23 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:


Guess DACA is good material for appealing to emotions with individual cases like this. They are children, after all.
Wulfey_LA
Profile Joined April 2017
932 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-09-04 15:55:41
September 04 2017 15:54 GMT
#172746
LOL at everyone yesterday who said Trump was a populist looking out for the working man when he shut down TPP. Trump and his Goldman staffers want to tax 401ks up front to pay for corporate tax cuts. Populism!!!

One idea quietly being discussed would be taxing the money that workers place into their 401(k) savings plans up front: an idea that would raise billions of dollars in the short-term and is pulled from the Camp plan. This policy idea is widely disliked by budget hawks, who consider it a gimmick; the financial services industry that handles retirement savings; and nonprofits that try to encourage Americans to save.



Doodsmack
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States7224 Posts
September 04 2017 15:58 GMT
#172747
Most of Trump's base probably doesn't have 401ks lol. But isn't the theory that corporate tax cuts pay for themselves by leading to increased growth?
Gorsameth
Profile Joined April 2010
Netherlands21783 Posts
September 04 2017 16:12 GMT
#172748
On September 05 2017 00:58 Doodsmack wrote:
Most of Trump's base probably doesn't have 401ks lol. But isn't the theory that corporate tax cuts pay for themselves by leading to increased growth?

The only growth from corporate tax cuts is in management bonuses.

Taxes are not stopping corporations from investing into open markets.
It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death
Danglars
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States12133 Posts
September 04 2017 16:14 GMT
#172749
On September 04 2017 21:54 zlefin wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 04 2017 15:26 Danglars wrote:
On September 04 2017 07:49 kollin wrote:
On September 04 2017 05:04 Danglars wrote:
On September 04 2017 03:24 LegalLord wrote:
On September 04 2017 03:14 Bayaz90 wrote:
On September 04 2017 03:12 Wulfey_LA wrote:
TPP-pros:
Maintains dollar dominance in SE Asia
Improves labor laws across SE Asia
Protects USA IP in SE Asia
Improves human rights across SE Asia
Shores up USA alliances across SE Asia

TPP-cons:
If you believe morons who are wrong (check out the criticism of the bogus Tufts study), TPP will cost jobs over time. Every other study says the opposite will happen.
Populists play politics with TPP and don't back up their anti-trade arguments with data (Warren, Chomsky, Bernie, Trump).

DJT's idiocy has left the USA weaker in SE Asia. Free Trade is how the USA turns its military dominance into economic dominance of other countries.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trans-Pacific_Partnership


Why should the United States care about conditions care about working conditions in SE Asia? How are those pros for the US? I guarantee you no country considers the well being of the US in any of these deals or agreements.

The TPP in general is mostly valuable as a singular means by which to accomplish many of the Asia-based FP goals of the US, and to shore up its influence in the area. It's pretty much the core policy of Obama's now-laughable "Asia pivot" initiative. Rather than just using a first look at a Wikipedia article, it's better to look at what actual academics say about it if you want to see why they want it - this piece is good for that.

Of course, the real problem in that bulleted list is that you can justify any argument with a quick list of things that you look at dismissively and other things that you look at uncritically, especially when you're just making up something on a first read. The concerns of who the TPP is meant to favor and who is going to be left out are genuine, not just "hurr durr people who see it another way are just debunked idiots." The document was negotiated in secrecy, with the exception of a few big interests that got to put their own line-items into it for their own benefit. Those labor/populist interests that believe that it's a largely harmful agreement for them and their own interests? They are correct.

Oh well, it's dead and it ain't coming back. Good riddance, and hopefully the rest of the pro-trade bloc follows suit and crumbles apart to semi-populist labor-centric concerns.

One can hope, that's for sure. I'm also wishing a clone of the TPP won't rise like a zombie from whichever far-left government comes next.

The TTP (and by extension TTIP) are hardly far left initiatives, and I have seen them opposed on the left far more strongly than on the right for as long as they've been known about. To suggest they're far left is fairly ignorant.

From the American perspective of far left, it absolutely is. It ends up being a European center-right or center-left, depending.

just letting everyone else know this is factually wrong.
These initiatives are about equally supported by the American left and right. For a few decades (up until the recent populist surge), both parties have been quite supportive of free trade and these kinds of treaties, as has the spectrum of discussion. My impression is that they tend to be more supported by the centrist wings of the parties; and that the fars, both left and right, are somewhat more apt to oppose them (at least recently).
Not going to get into it further per the avoid discussion with danglars policy.

American support is basically "What's the TPP?" Then, most Republicans/Independents were against or more strongly against than Democrats. It's wrong to frame this as "these kinds of treaties," since the TPP includes measures not present in other free trade bills
On September 04 2017 05:54 Sermokala wrote:
Anyone who supported TPP in the form that DJT killed is an idiot. It would have removed the sovereignty of every nation involved and raise international corporations to the status of nation states able to change the laws of other nations in court and get all the money they think they should have made on top.


So sadly, in discussing this topic according to your policy of avoiding discussing anything with me, you would need to discuss further why you're ignoring apropos aspects of the TPP. It's precisely the secret drafting and inclusion of corporatist anti-free-trade measures that created so much opposition.
Great armies come from happy zealots, and happy zealots come from California!
TL+ Member
NewSunshine
Profile Joined July 2011
United States5938 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-09-04 16:16:30
September 04 2017 16:16 GMT
#172750
On September 05 2017 00:54 Wulfey_LA wrote:
LOL at everyone yesterday who said Trump was a populist looking out for the working man when he shut down TPP. Trump and his Goldman staffers want to tax 401ks up front to pay for corporate tax cuts. Populism!!!

Show nested quote +
One idea quietly being discussed would be taxing the money that workers place into their 401(k) savings plans up front: an idea that would raise billions of dollars in the short-term and is pulled from the Camp plan. This policy idea is widely disliked by budget hawks, who consider it a gimmick; the financial services industry that handles retirement savings; and nonprofits that try to encourage Americans to save.



https://twitter.com/kylegriffin1/status/904692225665327104

Sounds like the lion coming up with a story as to why the mouse has nothing to worry about.
"If you find yourself feeling lost, take pride in the accuracy of your feelings." - Night Vale
RvB
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
Netherlands6230 Posts
September 04 2017 16:20 GMT
#172751
On September 05 2017 00:41 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 04 2017 22:05 Velr wrote:
This is not about left/right, its about market/business friendly or not.

Market/Business friendly used to be classical right wing positions, until the "right wing" went so far to the right that its now what we used to call "extreme right" (not just in the US, also in many other countries).

Market / business friendly & pro free trade (intrastate Europe, intra and interstate in Americas) would have been part of classical liberalism and the Enlightenment, no?

Americas were more into free trade between nations, as mercantilism was structured to favor the home country. Pretty much everyone got tired of the old within-nation boarders and tariffs.

Could be thinking of a different time period to define 'classic'...

Indeed yes. The most famous classical liberal newspaper (the economist) was founded to oppose the corn laws. The conservatives at that time were mercantilist.
Doodsmack
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States7224 Posts
September 04 2017 16:45 GMT
#172752
On September 04 2017 19:41 Acrofales wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 04 2017 02:30 Jockmcplop wrote:


Great idea!
When the US economy crashes he can just blame Obama.
The man's a genius.

For starters, that's China. The USA's largest trade partner (as a single country, 2nd if we count the EU as a single unity). I'm sure that will work well!


Trumps good at making himself look weak and stupid.

Falling
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
Canada11363 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-09-04 17:28:23
September 04 2017 17:07 GMT
#172753
@zlefin
Which points have you put forward? As far as I can tell, you began by demanding Sermokala provide greater argumentation, but I don't really think you've expanded upon a pro-side. Looking back on the past few days, I'm still not seeing any points you have put forward- only one sentence you-don't-know-what-you-are-talking-about refutations. And it certainly isn't all bad (though interestingly you only claim to 'slightly' support the TPP. But I have great concern over IP expansion laws, and if corporations could have similar influence on Canadian environmental protection as they do in Chapter 11 NAFTA, I didn't much care for that either.
Look. There is value in making sure state's cannot arbitrarily screw companies over- certainly value for the company, but also value for the country if they actually want to do business with the company. However, I'm not sure that the current balance is where it needs to be.
The Case for Removing the Fair and Equitable Treatment Standard from NAFTA This suggests that FET clause is being interpreted more broadly as it is not properly limited. If TPP is anything similar, then I would not wish to see the corresponding intrusiveness of corporations on the government.


And then there was the whole secrecy thing- we'll let you know what's going on after you've elected us (my government).

I will admit that I got too cute with trying to flip your 'not innately good' into 'innately bad', which is too strong a claim than I would prefer to make.
Moderator"In Trump We Trust," says the Golden Goat of Mars Lago. Have faith and believe! Trump moves in mysterious ways. Like the wind he blows where he pleases...
DarkPlasmaBall
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States44584 Posts
September 04 2017 17:19 GMT
#172754
On September 05 2017 01:45 Doodsmack wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 04 2017 19:41 Acrofales wrote:
On September 04 2017 02:30 Jockmcplop wrote:
https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/904377075049656322

Great idea!
When the US economy crashes he can just blame Obama.
The man's a genius.

For starters, that's China. The USA's largest trade partner (as a single country, 2nd if we count the EU as a single unity). I'm sure that will work well!


Trumps good at making himself look weak and stupid.

https://twitter.com/akiperitz/status/904385928826904576


If Trump actually does this, then who is he going to pay to manufacture all his Trump products?
"There is nothing more satisfying than looking at a crowd of people and helping them get what I love." ~Day[9] Daily #100
zlefin
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
United States7689 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-09-04 17:23:02
September 04 2017 17:20 GMT
#172755
On September 05 2017 02:07 Falling wrote:
@zlefin
Which points have you put forward? As far as I can tell, you began by demanding Sermokala provide greater argumentation, but I don't really think you've expanded upon a pro-side. Looking back on the past few days, I'm still not seeing any points you have put forward- only one sentence you-don't-know-what-you-are-talking-about refutations.

I will admit that I got too cute with trying to flip your 'not innately good' into 'innately bad', which is too strong a claim than I would prefer to make.

I've put forward lots of points to counter specific claims; so I'm not sure where you're coming from, it doesn't seem to follow.
It feels like you're not being careful with your argumentation and theses.

This mostly isn't a debate about whether trade is good or bad in general, it never was.

This is mostly me objecting to certain specific claims made by people. I made several counterpoints on the sovereignty issue; so I'm not seeing where you're saying I haven't made any points.

can you clarify where you are on the soverignty debate; and what your EXACT theses are?

we may need to switch to full formal mode to clear this up.
Great read: http://shorensteincenter.org/news-coverage-2016-general-election/ great book on democracy: http://press.princeton.edu/titles/10671.html zlefin is grumpier due to long term illness. Ignoring some users.
NewSunshine
Profile Joined July 2011
United States5938 Posts
September 04 2017 17:23 GMT
#172756
On September 05 2017 02:19 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 05 2017 01:45 Doodsmack wrote:
On September 04 2017 19:41 Acrofales wrote:
On September 04 2017 02:30 Jockmcplop wrote:
https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/904377075049656322

Great idea!
When the US economy crashes he can just blame Obama.
The man's a genius.

For starters, that's China. The USA's largest trade partner (as a single country, 2nd if we count the EU as a single unity). I'm sure that will work well!


Trumps good at making himself look weak and stupid.

https://twitter.com/akiperitz/status/904385928826904576


If Trump actually does this, then who is he going to pay to manufacture all his Trump products?

The irony of Russia being on that list is not lost on me. One of his aides is gonna have to pull him aside and tell him.
"If you find yourself feeling lost, take pride in the accuracy of your feelings." - Night Vale
Falling
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
Canada11363 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-09-04 17:41:47
September 04 2017 17:39 GMT
#172757
@zlefin.
When I made my first post on the topic. You said, "that doesn't change my points at all." Points, plural. So then, the points you have made must come before and in our subsequent exchange of posts. But all I see is various you-don't-understand-what-you-are-talking-about. Which while possibly true, isn't exactly a point, much less points.

"It would have removed the sovereignty of every nation involved and raise international corporations to the status of nation states"
That's too strong a claim, so perhaps we are closer in view. I would rather say that if it operates like NAFTA's Chapter 11, it intrudes too much on a nation's sovereignty. There needs to be more of a limitation- but I don't see it as raising companies into countries. It's currently (as far as I can tell, and really what do I know) imbalanced- TPP would likely have expanded the imbalance when it actually needs to be rebalanced.
Moderator"In Trump We Trust," says the Golden Goat of Mars Lago. Have faith and believe! Trump moves in mysterious ways. Like the wind he blows where he pleases...
Sermokala
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States13984 Posts
September 04 2017 17:54 GMT
#172758
On September 05 2017 02:39 Falling wrote:
@zlefin.
When I made my first post on the topic. You said, "that doesn't change my points at all." Points, plural. So then, the points you have made must come before and in our subsequent exchange of posts. But all I see is various you-don't-understand-what-you-are-talking-about. Which while possibly true, isn't exactly a point, much less points.

Show nested quote +
"It would have removed the sovereignty of every nation involved and raise international corporations to the status of nation states"
That's too strong a claim, so perhaps we are closer in view. I would rather say that if it operates like NAFTA's Chapter 11, it intrudes too much on a nation's sovereignty. There needs to be more of a limitation- but I don't see it as raising companies into countries. It's currently (as far as I can tell, and really what do I know) imbalanced- TPP would likely have expanded the imbalance when it actually needs to be rebalanced.

I admit the statement is hyperbolic but Its a fair statement when you create a court where a corporation has even standings with a nation. A nation should have to be the one to bring a claim against another nation. Especially in situations where a corporation has ties to the government. A corporation can begin to do business in another nation now specifically to start a lawsuit later on in order to make said business profitable for them.

A people should be allowed to make their own laws and their own rules on how to do business in their own country without undue influence. I think a tangential argument can be made against TPP from a UN right to self determination argument.
A wise man will say that he knows nothing. We're gona party like its 2752 Hail Dark Brandon
Adreme
Profile Joined June 2011
United States5574 Posts
September 04 2017 18:09 GMT
#172759
On September 05 2017 02:19 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 05 2017 01:45 Doodsmack wrote:
On September 04 2017 19:41 Acrofales wrote:
On September 04 2017 02:30 Jockmcplop wrote:
https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/904377075049656322

Great idea!
When the US economy crashes he can just blame Obama.
The man's a genius.

For starters, that's China. The USA's largest trade partner (as a single country, 2nd if we count the EU as a single unity). I'm sure that will work well!


Trumps good at making himself look weak and stupid.

https://twitter.com/akiperitz/status/904385928826904576


If Trump actually does this, then who is he going to pay to manufacture all his Trump products?


Its fairly obviously a bluff and EVERYONE knows it so it has no power. I mean yes it hurts the rest of the world but it hurts us more so it makes no sense for us to do it so its clearly not going to happen. Hot air and bluster only get you so far.
zlefin
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
United States7689 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-09-04 18:19:32
September 04 2017 18:11 GMT
#172760
On September 05 2017 02:39 Falling wrote:
@zlefin.
When I made my first post on the topic. You said, "that doesn't change my points at all." Points, plural. So then, the points you have made must come before and in our subsequent exchange of posts. But all I see is various you-don't-understand-what-you-are-talking-about. Which while possibly true, isn't exactly a point, much less points.

Show nested quote +
"It would have removed the sovereignty of every nation involved and raise international corporations to the status of nation states"
That's too strong a claim, so perhaps we are closer in view. I would rather say that if it operates like NAFTA's Chapter 11, it intrudes too much on a nation's sovereignty. There needs to be more of a limitation- but I don't see it as raising companies into countries. It's currently (as far as I can tell, and really what do I know) imbalanced- TPP would likely have expanded the imbalance when it actually needs to be rebalanced.

I see at least 2 points in the responses I made to Sermo; and I don't see how what you said discounts them. There were a bunch of academic citations in the pages prior to that that covered various issues related to this as well; and no counters were presented to those (which were obviously far more thoroughly vetted and argued than any of our points are)

I made points in the last 3 pages contesting the claim that it actually intrudes onto a nation's sovereignty. it feels like you're misusing the term sovereignty.

Great read: http://shorensteincenter.org/news-coverage-2016-general-election/ great book on democracy: http://press.princeton.edu/titles/10671.html zlefin is grumpier due to long term illness. Ignoring some users.
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