• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 19:01
CEST 01:01
KST 08:01
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
Power Rank - Esports World Cup 202552RSL Season 1 - Final Week9[ASL19] Finals Recap: Standing Tall15HomeStory Cup 27 - Info & Preview18Classic wins Code S Season 2 (2025)16
Community News
BSL Team Wars - Bonyth, Dewalt, Hawk & Sziky teams7Weekly Cups (July 14-20): Final Check-up0Esports World Cup 2025 - Brackets Revealed19Weekly Cups (July 7-13): Classic continues to roll8Team TLMC #5 - Submission re-extension4
StarCraft 2
General
The GOAT ranking of GOAT rankings Power Rank - Esports World Cup 2025 RSL Revival patreon money discussion thread Jim claims he and Firefly were involved in match-fixing RSL Season 1 - Final Week
Tourneys
Esports World Cup 2025 Master Swan Open (Global Bronze-Master 2) Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament Sea Duckling Open (Global, Bronze-Diamond) FEL Cracov 2025 (July 27) - $8000 live event
Strategy
How did i lose this ZvP, whats the proper response
Custom Maps
External Content
Mutation #239 Bad Weather Mutation # 483 Kill Bot Wars Mutation # 482 Wheel of Misfortune Mutation # 481 Fear and Lava
Brood War
General
BSL Team Wars - Bonyth, Dewalt, Hawk & Sziky teams BW General Discussion [Update] ShieldBattery: 2025 Redesign BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ Ginuda's JaeDong Interview Series
Tourneys
[Megathread] Daily Proleagues CSL Xiamen International Invitational [CSLPRO] It's CSLAN Season! - Last Chance [BSL 2v2] ProLeague Season 3 - Friday 21:00 CET
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers I am doing this better than progamers do.
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Nintendo Switch Thread [MMORPG] Tree of Savior (Successor of Ragnarok) Path of Exile CCLP - Command & Conquer League Project
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Post Pic of your Favorite Food! Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Russo-Ukrainian War Thread The Games Industry And ATVI
Fan Clubs
SKT1 Classic Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
[\m/] Heavy Metal Thread Anime Discussion Thread Movie Discussion! [Manga] One Piece Korean Music Discussion
Sports
Formula 1 Discussion 2024 - 2025 Football Thread TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 NBA General Discussion
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Installation of Windows 10 suck at "just a moment" Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Ping To Win? Pings And Their…
TrAiDoS
momentary artworks from des…
tankgirl
from making sc maps to makin…
Husyelt
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Socialism Anyone?
GreenHorizons
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 673 users

US Politics Mega-thread - Page 8496

Forum Index > Closed
Post a Reply
Prev 1 8494 8495 8496 8497 8498 10093 Next
Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
Liquid`Drone
Profile Joined September 2002
Norway28665 Posts
August 19 2017 16:12 GMT
#169901
agree that defacing statues, virtually no matter how bad the depicted individual was, is bad and should be discouraged. I also support moving such statues/monuments to museums. I mean in a hypothetical post dictatorship where there are literally 50000 monuments to glorious leader then sure, go ahead. But in general preserving history and historical monuments is extremely important.
Moderator
micronesia
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States24676 Posts
August 19 2017 16:15 GMT
#169902
Mohdoo you are going down a dark road. I agree, your concerns with a Lee statue are pretty obviously (to me) much worse than whatever concerns others have with George Washington statues. Don't change the rules though because slavery. If slavery was that bad (which it was) then get the statue taken down officially, not through vigilante vandalism to compensate for the fact that a given town is too backwards to realize what is wrong with worshiping Lee. Slavery doesn't give you a free pass to do whatever your emotions make you want to do... it's even more important with serious and charged issues like that to strengthen the system and use it to drive progress. Hopefully others can back me up because I fear this conversation is going in a direction where the two of us just talk past each other.
ModeratorThere are animal crackers for people and there are people crackers for animals.
Gorsameth
Profile Joined April 2010
Netherlands21666 Posts
August 19 2017 16:16 GMT
#169903
On August 20 2017 01:10 Mohdoo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 20 2017 01:05 micronesia wrote:
On August 20 2017 00:55 Mohdoo wrote:
On August 20 2017 00:42 micronesia wrote:
For example, if some people who take real issue with the Statue of George Washington in the town square near my home, they would have a mechanism for trying to legally get the statue removed. If a few of those folks just sawed the statue in half I would be pretty upset.


George Washington is easily justified as a founding father. Confederate statues represent fighting for slavery.

So? Everyone supports or disapproves of statues of people for different reasons. Personally, I want a George Washington Statue much more than I want a Lee statue, but I'm going to apply my ethics equally to both sides. Once you make it okay to change the rules depending on whether or not you agree with a person, you are already well underway to a society I don't want to live in.

edit: To be clear, I would support pursuing a legal effort to get a Lee statue moved out of a public square.


Are you really pretending the systematic enslaving of an entire race is not a unique critique? That there are all sorts of statues we have around with similar cons? I don't understand why you are applying such a low resolution perspective on this

"this has bad qualities"
"other thing ALSO is not purely free of any negative qualities"
"Well, guess that's about the same then"

We can think harder and give more nuance to ethics than that. We don't need to try to classify objects or beliefs in as few categories as possible.

Vandalism is bad, regardless of what your vandalizing. The US is a somewhat normally functioning democratic country, if you want a statue removed, regardless of what it depicts, follow proper procedure.
It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death
Mohdoo
Profile Joined August 2007
United States15686 Posts
August 19 2017 16:22 GMT
#169904
On August 20 2017 01:15 micronesia wrote:
Mohdoo you are going down a dark road. I agree, your concerns with a Lee statue are pretty obviously (to me) much worse than whatever concerns others have with George Washington statues. Don't change the rules though because slavery. If slavery was that bad (which it was) then get the statue taken down officially, not through vigilante vandalism to compensate for the fact that a given town is too backwards to realize what is wrong with worshiping Lee. Slavery doesn't give you a free pass to do whatever your emotions make you want to do... it's even more important with serious and charged issues like that to strengthen the system and use it to drive progress. Hopefully others can back me up because I fear this conversation is going in a direction where the two of us just talk past each other.


I think the perspective of "just take the legal route" is ignoring how many big changes in our country are largely the result of civil disobedience and not playing by the rules. I suppose I see slavery as extremely distinct and that statues paying respect to people who fought to enslave blacks are utterly fucked up.

Statues and other forms of immortalizing historical figures serve a similar function as laws. If I can make a comparison: gay marriage. When gays were told they had a uniquely lesser set of rights as straight people, it was more than that. It sets a "tone" so to speak with regards to where gays fit into society. It reinforced the idea that there really was something other-than about gays and it had big impacts on the lives and minds of people in society.

To me, it is simply unfair to blacks for us to allow these symbols of hatred to exist in these areas. I understand that you agree these statues are negative and should be removed. I am just trying to explain why I think this is a uniquely awful situation where I understand people wanting to break the rules and make sure this ends immediately.

I'm not saying slavery should allow people to just run around doing whatever they feel is necessary. I am saying that specifically on the issue of these statues, especially ones on government property, where it is fair to say a society is represented, it is acceptable to me for people to forcibly remove them.
Falling
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
Canada11349 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-08-19 16:48:45
August 19 2017 16:45 GMT
#169905
Well the statues are really symbols of perhaps a multiplicity of values, and so if you knock out the statue without a process, sure you've taken out an eyesore, but you're really just tackling the surface issue and not giving the rest of the community time to come to terms to bring it down in solidarity (because now the majority agree or at least a critical mass agree.) It'll take longer sure because people actually have to change their minds, but I think it's better because I think just knocking down statues is more likely to entrench positions.

You could think of it this way- if the only way to take them down is through vigilantism, then how has anything changed really? The majority didn't think having a statue up was such a bad thing... and they would continue to think that way, only now they're mad because some vigilantes have taken the issue into their own hands. Isn't it possible one statue might just replace the other? But if you've gone through a process where enough people agree that it should be taken down, well that some real progress. And that's because people think differently, and that's a good thing.
Moderator"In Trump We Trust," says the Golden Goat of Mars Lago. Have faith and believe! Trump moves in mysterious ways. Like the wind he blows where he pleases...
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-08-19 16:50:30
August 19 2017 16:48 GMT
#169906
We also need to take a holistic view of the statues and not limit the discussion simply to slavery. They also represent the people who put them up during the Jim Crow era and century of oppression against blacks after the civil war. The cause and outcome of the civil war is still disputed and debated across this country. That fight is still ongoing and the leveler of power are being used to prevent cities and towns from removing the monuments through legal means. In North Carolina there is an ongoing struggle over voter suppression and state funding being cut for democratic districts. The statues are emblematic of a larger conflict.

We cannot hide behind the defense of history to justify avoiding the conversation about how that history should be represented. Or omit facts like Lee himself was against confederate monuments. One cannot insist that people come together while also demanding that the status quo be maintained. Engagement requires acceptance that change will happen at some level. There are ways to celebrate those who served and died in the war without lionizing them in the center of public spaces. The vandalism is a result of long term denial of this discussion, resulting it civil disobedience. Much like throwing tea into the ocean when your interests are not represented in government.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
Mohdoo
Profile Joined August 2007
United States15686 Posts
August 19 2017 16:49 GMT
#169907
On August 20 2017 01:45 Falling wrote:
Well the statues are really symbols of perhaps a multiplicity of values,
and so if you knock out the statue without a process, sure you've taken out an eyesore, but you're really just tackling the surface issue and not giving the rest of the community time to come to terms to bring it down in solidarity (because now the majority agree or at least a critical mass agree.) It'll take longer sure because people actually have to change their minds, but I think it's better because I think just knocking down statues is more likely to entrench positions.

You could think of it this way- if the only way to take them down is through vigilantism, then how has anything changed really? The majority didn't think having a statue up was such a bad thing... and they would continue to think that way, only now they're mad because some vigilantes have taken the issue into their own hands. Isn't it possible one statue might just replace the other? But if you've gone through a process where enough people agree that it should be taken down, well that some real progress. And that's because people think differently, and that's a good thing.


Can you elaborate on this? What are other values that were lost from the south losing the war?
Liquid`Jinro
Profile Blog Joined September 2002
Sweden33719 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-08-19 16:55:39
August 19 2017 16:55 GMT
#169908
Is there really no way to make these proper educational monuments? I.E here's a monument to remind us that a lot of our people died fighting for a despicable cause, let's not do it again. Less glory, more 'tragically misguided'.

I'm not sure how that would work out in practice but there's a lot of creative people out there, I'd be interested in seeing how they'd go about communicating this. Though some of the people marching against taking them down would probably dislike this even more.
Moderatortell the guy that interplanatar interaction is pivotal to terrans variety of optionitudals in the pre-midgame preperatories as well as the protosstinal deterriggation of elite zergling strikes - Stimey n | Formerly FrozenArbiter
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-08-19 17:01:03
August 19 2017 16:57 GMT
#169909
On August 20 2017 01:55 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
Is there really no way to make these proper educational monuments? I.E here's a monument to remind us that a lot of our people died fighting for a despicable cause, let's not do it again.

I'm not sure how that would work out in practice but there's a lot of creative people out there, I'd be interested in seeing how they'd go about communicating this. Though some of the people marching against taking them down would probably dislike this even more.

Of course there is. The debate over these monuments also represents a debate over history. The people southern states still, to this day, refer to northerners as Yankees. To publicly display that the war was fought to preserve slavery puts them on the wrong side of history. And adding further context, like the fact that the majority of these monuments were erected in the most raciest time in US history is not palatable to them. The problem is that the demographics in those states, specifically in the cities where these monuments are most prevalent, are changing. So you see pushes to remove or change the monuments.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
Liquid`Drone
Profile Joined September 2002
Norway28665 Posts
August 19 2017 16:58 GMT
#169910
The way I see it, one major takeaway from 2017 is the importance of strong institutions and adhering to proper protocols. Some of the less stable and cohesive democratic countries on earth are one strong demagogue and concerted disinformation campaign away from dangerous and influential mobs.

Obviously I agree that Robert E Lee should not be a celebrated figure. But I think it's highly likely that somewhere in the region of 40% of americans would disagree greatly with my idea of what a celebrated figure should be. While dismantling or destroying or defacing a statue or monument celebrating a person or idea that I find repelling might give me some instant gratification, it grants legitimacy to groups on the other side of the political spectrum who dismantle or destroy or deface statues or monuments that they find similarly offensive. It doesn't matter if there aren't actually any statues of Pol Pot in the US - the more ignorant part of the trump base considers Obama et al. just as bad as people like us find Robert E Lee. Only through being consistent in our condemnation of vandalism can we expect consistent condemnation of vandalism - otherwise it becomes something that people are okay with if they sufficiently disliked the vandalized object, and that is one more stepping stone towards vigilantism. We do not want this.
Moderator
mustaju
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Estonia4504 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-08-19 17:02:53
August 19 2017 17:02 GMT
#169911
On August 20 2017 01:55 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
Is there really no way to make these proper educational monuments? I.E here's a monument to remind us that a lot of our people died fighting for a despicable cause, let's not do it again. Less glory, more 'tragically misguided'.

I'm not sure how that would work out in practice but there's a lot of creative people out there, I'd be interested in seeing how they'd go about communicating this. Though some of the people marching against taking them down would probably dislike this even more.

Isn't this a band-aid solution in a way? The statues themselves would be less of a problem if it wasn't for wide-spread unfactual revisionist history.

EDIT: Ninja-ed by P6.
WriterBrows somewhat high. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ndFysO2JunE
Falling
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
Canada11349 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-08-19 17:12:13
August 19 2017 17:06 GMT
#169912
On August 20 2017 01:49 Mohdoo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 20 2017 01:45 Falling wrote:
Well the statues are really symbols of perhaps a multiplicity of values,
and so if you knock out the statue without a process, sure you've taken out an eyesore, but you're really just tackling the surface issue and not giving the rest of the community time to come to terms to bring it down in solidarity (because now the majority agree or at least a critical mass agree.) It'll take longer sure because people actually have to change their minds, but I think it's better because I think just knocking down statues is more likely to entrench positions.

You could think of it this way- if the only way to take them down is through vigilantism, then how has anything changed really? The majority didn't think having a statue up was such a bad thing... and they would continue to think that way, only now they're mad because some vigilantes have taken the issue into their own hands. Isn't it possible one statue might just replace the other? But if you've gone through a process where enough people agree that it should be taken down, well that some real progress. And that's because people think differently, and that's a good thing.


Can you elaborate on this? What are other values that were lost from the south losing the war?

Not really, I was trying to leave a back door for myself because I cannot account for all the motivations on why someone might want to keep the statue up- southern heritage or Lee was a great general or something (and yes you could append slavery behind pretty much any alternative reason- southern heritage, Lee, etc), but I generally dislike locking myself into ascribing one motivation to a large group of people I don't know. But statues of this sort aren't just the material they are made up of, but represent something- of course they do because otherwise why would people want to take them down as well?

The point is really general, rather than specific, and it isn't a defence for keeping up the statues. It's a defence for taking them down as a community rather than via vigilantes in the night. And the reason for that is, whatever those statues mean to people, whether good or bad, the reasons they had that meaning will continue after the statue is taken out in the night. So what have you solved really? You've forced the issue, great. But how much do we care about the actual piece of rock vs that people still have reasoning that makes think that rock had some meaning? By making a case in public with slow pressure over time, the actual act of taking the statue down will have symbolic meaning for the entire community rather than some personal meaning for the vigilante few. I think it's powerful when a community can come to a point where it can publicly say, 'we were wrong, and in line with this understanding, we are taking down this statue to commemorate our change in understanding.' I don't know. Maybe it's not as important as I'm making it, but it's just a line of thought I had this morning. I just generally dislike vandalism as part of civil disobedience. It's not usually a very contained action, nor performed by the most constrained people and tends to attract the sort that just want to burn cars and break shop windows.
Moderator"In Trump We Trust," says the Golden Goat of Mars Lago. Have faith and believe! Trump moves in mysterious ways. Like the wind he blows where he pleases...
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
August 19 2017 17:15 GMT
#169913


Boston has this on lock. The "free speech" is going exactly how I expected it to.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
FueledUpAndReadyToGo
Profile Blog Joined March 2013
Netherlands30548 Posts
August 19 2017 17:17 GMT
#169914
On August 20 2017 02:15 Plansix wrote:
https://twitter.com/Mikel_Jollett/status/898944831673704449

Boston has this on lock. The "free speech" is going exactly how I expected it to.

Amazing haha
Neosteel Enthusiast
LegalLord
Profile Blog Joined April 2013
United Kingdom13775 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-08-19 17:19:03
August 19 2017 17:18 GMT
#169915
On August 20 2017 01:58 Liquid`Drone wrote:
The way I see it, one major takeaway from 2017 is the importance of strong institutions and adhering to proper protocols.

Do you also agree that that applies in reverse? That we should respect the due process of how the office of the presidency is supposed to operate, even when the president is a dangerously incompetent nincompoop? That, for example, being willing to throw out non-stop classified information just to make life worse for the hated president is a bad thing?

I ask because you are pretty closely aligned with the political affiliation of the folk who see the merit of institutions when they're meant to limit Trump, but not when they're meant to allow him to do his job. Though I know that that doesn't mean that you necessarily agree with all of them on everything, including perhaps, perhaps not, on this issue.
History will sooner or later sweep the European Union away without mercy.
Falling
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
Canada11349 Posts
August 19 2017 17:18 GMT
#169916
That's sounds like a good ratio
Yeah, any of the actual free speech guys hightailed it out of there long before today. The only guys left are the overly optimistic supremacists.
Moderator"In Trump We Trust," says the Golden Goat of Mars Lago. Have faith and believe! Trump moves in mysterious ways. Like the wind he blows where he pleases...
LegalLord
Profile Blog Joined April 2013
United Kingdom13775 Posts
August 19 2017 17:25 GMT
#169917
On August 20 2017 02:02 mustaju wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 20 2017 01:55 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
Is there really no way to make these proper educational monuments? I.E here's a monument to remind us that a lot of our people died fighting for a despicable cause, let's not do it again. Less glory, more 'tragically misguided'.

I'm not sure how that would work out in practice but there's a lot of creative people out there, I'd be interested in seeing how they'd go about communicating this. Though some of the people marching against taking them down would probably dislike this even more.

Isn't this a band-aid solution in a way? The statues themselves would be less of a problem if it wasn't for wide-spread unfactual revisionist history.

EDIT: Ninja-ed by P6.

Truth is that's just a relic of how the US is divided in general and how historical truth propagates throughout. Although there was a conclusive military result from the US Civil War, culturally the rift that existed back then didn't exactly heal, it merely persisted. Add to the fact that the US has a rather awful education system (in that you can find world-class schools all across the country, but a high-quality education and especially a high-quality appreciation of the merits of education are not universal) and yes, you do generally have a culture where people live in alternate realities. And not just in the sense of how in most countries we interpret the merits of acknowledged historical events in different ways, it's genuine alternate histories.

Like so:
History will sooner or later sweep the European Union away without mercy.
Mohdoo
Profile Joined August 2007
United States15686 Posts
August 19 2017 17:32 GMT
#169918
On August 20 2017 02:06 Falling wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 20 2017 01:49 Mohdoo wrote:
On August 20 2017 01:45 Falling wrote:
Well the statues are really symbols of perhaps a multiplicity of values,
and so if you knock out the statue without a process, sure you've taken out an eyesore, but you're really just tackling the surface issue and not giving the rest of the community time to come to terms to bring it down in solidarity (because now the majority agree or at least a critical mass agree.) It'll take longer sure because people actually have to change their minds, but I think it's better because I think just knocking down statues is more likely to entrench positions.

You could think of it this way- if the only way to take them down is through vigilantism, then how has anything changed really? The majority didn't think having a statue up was such a bad thing... and they would continue to think that way, only now they're mad because some vigilantes have taken the issue into their own hands. Isn't it possible one statue might just replace the other? But if you've gone through a process where enough people agree that it should be taken down, well that some real progress. And that's because people think differently, and that's a good thing.


Can you elaborate on this? What are other values that were lost from the south losing the war?

Not really, I was trying to leave a back door for myself because I cannot account for all the motivations on why someone might want to keep the statue up- southern heritage or Lee was a great general or something (and yes you could append slavery behind pretty much any alternative reason- southern heritage, Lee, etc), but I generally dislike locking myself into ascribing one motivation to a large group of people I don't know. But statues of this sort aren't just the material they are made up of, but represent something- of course they do because otherwise why would people want to take them down as well?

The point is really general, rather than specific, and it isn't a defence for keeping up the statues. It's a defence for taking them down as a community rather than via vigilantes in the night. And the reason for that is, whatever those statues mean to people, whether good or bad, the reasons they had that meaning will continue after the statue is taken out in the night. So what have you solved really? You've forced the issue, great. But how much do we care about the actual piece of rock vs that people still have reasoning that makes think that rock had some meaning? By making a case in public with slow pressure over time, the actual act of taking the statue down will have symbolic meaning for the entire community rather than some personal meaning for the vigilante few. I think it's powerful when a community can come to a point where it can publicly say, 'we were wrong, and in line with this understanding, we are taking down this statue to commemorate our change in understanding.' I don't know. Maybe it's not as important as I'm making it, but it's just a line of thought I had this morning. I just generally dislike vandalism as part of civil disobedience. It's not usually a very contained action, nor performed by the most constrained people and tends to attract the sort that just want to burn cars and break shop windows.

Sorry but general isn't good enough. When the cons section includes slavery, you need to come up with more than "I dunno, just kinda south and stuff" to as pros.
Gahlo
Profile Joined February 2010
United States35143 Posts
August 19 2017 17:33 GMT
#169919
And it just keeps coming...

CLEVELAND (AP) — A dashcam video of a traffic stop that led to a white police officer with a history of disciplinary issues repeatedly punching a black man and hitting his head on pavement appears to show a different sequence of events than police had originally described.

The initial statement from police in the Cleveland suburb of Euclid said Richard Hubbard III, who was pulled over on suspicion of having a suspended driver’s license, had refused Officer Michael Amiott’s orders to “face away” after getting out of his car Aug. 12 and then began resisting. But the video obtained this week in a public records request appears to show Amiott not giving Hubbard a chance to comply, Hubbard’s attorney said Friday.

“Your own two eyes and common sense can lead to only one reasonable conclusion as to the propriety of the level of force used for a basic traffic stop and whether or not my client had a chance to comply,” attorney Christopher McNeal said.

The dashcam video shows Amiott opening the car door and Hubbard getting out. Within a second of Amiott ordering him to “face away,” the video shows the officer grabbing Hubbard’s arms and wrestling him to the ground in the middle of a street as Hubbard’s girlfriend jumps out of the car and rushes over.

<Cont>


AP News
Falling
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
Canada11349 Posts
August 19 2017 17:36 GMT
#169920
On August 20 2017 02:32 Mohdoo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 20 2017 02:06 Falling wrote:
On August 20 2017 01:49 Mohdoo wrote:
On August 20 2017 01:45 Falling wrote:
Well the statues are really symbols of perhaps a multiplicity of values,
and so if you knock out the statue without a process, sure you've taken out an eyesore, but you're really just tackling the surface issue and not giving the rest of the community time to come to terms to bring it down in solidarity (because now the majority agree or at least a critical mass agree.) It'll take longer sure because people actually have to change their minds, but I think it's better because I think just knocking down statues is more likely to entrench positions.

You could think of it this way- if the only way to take them down is through vigilantism, then how has anything changed really? The majority didn't think having a statue up was such a bad thing... and they would continue to think that way, only now they're mad because some vigilantes have taken the issue into their own hands. Isn't it possible one statue might just replace the other? But if you've gone through a process where enough people agree that it should be taken down, well that some real progress. And that's because people think differently, and that's a good thing.


Can you elaborate on this? What are other values that were lost from the south losing the war?

Not really, I was trying to leave a back door for myself because I cannot account for all the motivations on why someone might want to keep the statue up- southern heritage or Lee was a great general or something (and yes you could append slavery behind pretty much any alternative reason- southern heritage, Lee, etc), but I generally dislike locking myself into ascribing one motivation to a large group of people I don't know. But statues of this sort aren't just the material they are made up of, but represent something- of course they do because otherwise why would people want to take them down as well?

The point is really general, rather than specific, and it isn't a defence for keeping up the statues. It's a defence for taking them down as a community rather than via vigilantes in the night. And the reason for that is, whatever those statues mean to people, whether good or bad, the reasons they had that meaning will continue after the statue is taken out in the night. So what have you solved really? You've forced the issue, great. But how much do we care about the actual piece of rock vs that people still have reasoning that makes think that rock had some meaning? By making a case in public with slow pressure over time, the actual act of taking the statue down will have symbolic meaning for the entire community rather than some personal meaning for the vigilante few. I think it's powerful when a community can come to a point where it can publicly say, 'we were wrong, and in line with this understanding, we are taking down this statue to commemorate our change in understanding.' I don't know. Maybe it's not as important as I'm making it, but it's just a line of thought I had this morning. I just generally dislike vandalism as part of civil disobedience. It's not usually a very contained action, nor performed by the most constrained people and tends to attract the sort that just want to burn cars and break shop windows.

Sorry but general isn't good enough. When the cons section includes slavery, you need to come up with more than "I dunno, just kinda south and stuff" to as pros.

Well I'm not arguing for them to stay, so why should I have come up with a reason to stay? I'm just arguing against vigilante vandalism as a matter of principle as already outlined above.
Moderator"In Trump We Trust," says the Golden Goat of Mars Lago. Have faith and believe! Trump moves in mysterious ways. Like the wind he blows where he pleases...
Prev 1 8494 8495 8496 8497 8498 10093 Next
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 11h 59m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
Nathanias 253
Nina 145
StarCraft: Brood War
Sexy 15
ivOry 7
Dota 2
monkeys_forever889
League of Legends
Dendi1030
syndereN170
Counter-Strike
Fnx 1639
Stewie2K1032
Super Smash Bros
Liquid`Ken47
AZ_Axe1
Other Games
summit1g10656
tarik_tv4856
C9.Mang0204
ViBE196
ToD78
PPMD45
Organizations
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 18 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Hupsaiya 85
• davetesta41
• musti20045 35
• Kozan
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• sooper7s
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Migwel
• IndyKCrew
StarCraft: Brood War
• blackmanpl 49
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
• BSLYoutube
Dota 2
• masondota21172
League of Legends
• TFBlade442
Other Games
• imaqtpie1616
• Shiphtur418
Upcoming Events
Esports World Cup
11h 59m
Serral vs Cure
Solar vs Classic
OSC
14h 59m
CranKy Ducklings
1d 10h
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
1d 14h
CSO Cup
1d 16h
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
1d 18h
Bonyth vs Sziky
Dewalt vs Hawk
Hawk vs QiaoGege
Sziky vs Dewalt
Mihu vs Bonyth
Zhanhun vs QiaoGege
QiaoGege vs Fengzi
FEL
2 days
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
2 days
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
2 days
Bonyth vs Zhanhun
Dewalt vs Mihu
Hawk vs Sziky
Sziky vs QiaoGege
Mihu vs Hawk
Zhanhun vs Dewalt
Fengzi vs Bonyth
Sparkling Tuna Cup
4 days
[ Show More ]
Online Event
4 days
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
5 days
The PondCast
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

CSL Xiamen Invitational
Championship of Russia 2025
Murky Cup #2

Ongoing

Copa Latinoamericana 4
Jiahua Invitational
BSL20 Non-Korean Championship
Esports World Cup 2025
CC Div. A S7
Underdog Cup #2
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 7
IEM Dallas 2025
PGL Astana 2025
Asian Champions League '25

Upcoming

CSLPRO Last Chance 2025
ASL Season 20: Qualifier #1
ASL Season 20: Qualifier #2
ASL Season 20
CSLPRO Chat StarLAN 3
BSL Season 21
RSL Revival: Season 2
Maestros of the Game
SEL Season 2 Championship
uThermal 2v2 Main Event
FEL Cracov 2025
HCC Europe
ESL Pro League S22
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.