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On August 16 2017 03:06 Falling wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2017 02:57 KwarK wrote:On August 16 2017 02:55 Falling wrote:On August 16 2017 02:22 TheYango wrote:On August 16 2017 02:09 Jockmcplop wrote:
This documentary has enlightened me somewhat as to the mindset of these people.
It reminds me of football fans in the UK in the 80s. They all just look they enjoy chanting and shouting at each other with a fairly small subset who are their for as much violence as they can manage.
At the point where someone's rallying with actual Nazis, you lose my sympathy as someone who "just enjoys chanting and shouting". At the point where you find yourself next to someone waving a Swastika flag, you had several decision points where you could have made the choice that this wasn't something you wanted to be a part of. And at one of those, someone made the choice to stand next to a Nazi. I think reasonable and even unreasonable people saw where this was heading and backed out of it. A bunch of the free speech guys were initially going to be involved and then realized who else was going to be there and said, nope not for me as long as you have those Nazi guys there. They are now glad as all hell they stayed away (see Gavin McInnes for instance). Like, as a history guy I appreciate Lee as a general- similar to Rommel. So I have some sympathy regarding the statue... although even if I was living in that city, I wouldn't care enough to protest its taking down. But supposing I did, and supposing I didn't know in advance who was going to show up... at the point where I see a bunch of Nazi paraphenelia waving around, I'm hopping back in my car and driving home. No thanks, no Nazis for me. The reasonable pro statue view would be for the statue to be respectfully removed and given to a museum where it, and other parts of Confederate history, can be appropriately contextualized. That's pretty reasonable to me.
I thought that was always the plan??
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On August 16 2017 03:34 Trainrunnef wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2017 03:06 Falling wrote:On August 16 2017 02:57 KwarK wrote:On August 16 2017 02:55 Falling wrote:On August 16 2017 02:22 TheYango wrote:On August 16 2017 02:09 Jockmcplop wrote:
This documentary has enlightened me somewhat as to the mindset of these people.
It reminds me of football fans in the UK in the 80s. They all just look they enjoy chanting and shouting at each other with a fairly small subset who are their for as much violence as they can manage.
At the point where someone's rallying with actual Nazis, you lose my sympathy as someone who "just enjoys chanting and shouting". At the point where you find yourself next to someone waving a Swastika flag, you had several decision points where you could have made the choice that this wasn't something you wanted to be a part of. And at one of those, someone made the choice to stand next to a Nazi. I think reasonable and even unreasonable people saw where this was heading and backed out of it. A bunch of the free speech guys were initially going to be involved and then realized who else was going to be there and said, nope not for me as long as you have those Nazi guys there. They are now glad as all hell they stayed away (see Gavin McInnes for instance). Like, as a history guy I appreciate Lee as a general- similar to Rommel. So I have some sympathy regarding the statue... although even if I was living in that city, I wouldn't care enough to protest its taking down. But supposing I did, and supposing I didn't know in advance who was going to show up... at the point where I see a bunch of Nazi paraphenelia waving around, I'm hopping back in my car and driving home. No thanks, no Nazis for me. The reasonable pro statue view would be for the statue to be respectfully removed and given to a museum where it, and other parts of Confederate history, can be appropriately contextualized. That's pretty reasonable to me. I thought that was always the plan??
That is my understanding. I have not heard a story of them removing one and melting it down to make a park bench.
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On August 16 2017 02:57 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2017 02:55 Falling wrote:On August 16 2017 02:22 TheYango wrote:On August 16 2017 02:09 Jockmcplop wrote:
This documentary has enlightened me somewhat as to the mindset of these people.
It reminds me of football fans in the UK in the 80s. They all just look they enjoy chanting and shouting at each other with a fairly small subset who are their for as much violence as they can manage.
At the point where someone's rallying with actual Nazis, you lose my sympathy as someone who "just enjoys chanting and shouting". At the point where you find yourself next to someone waving a Swastika flag, you had several decision points where you could have made the choice that this wasn't something you wanted to be a part of. And at one of those, someone made the choice to stand next to a Nazi. I think reasonable and even unreasonable people saw where this was heading and backed out of it. A bunch of the free speech guys were initially going to be involved and then realized who else was going to be there and said, nope not for me as long as you have those Nazi guys there. They are now glad as all hell they stayed away (see Gavin McInnes for instance). Like, as a history guy I appreciate Lee as a general- similar to Rommel. So I have some sympathy regarding the statue... although even if I was living in that city, I wouldn't care enough to protest its taking down. But supposing I did, and supposing I didn't know in advance who was going to show up... at the point where I see a bunch of Nazi paraphenelia waving around, I'm hopping back in my car and driving home. No thanks, no Nazis for me. The reasonable pro statue view would be for the statue to be respectfully removed and given to a museum where it, and other parts of Confederate history, can be appropriately contextualized.
How does Germany handle Nazi stuff? They clearly do not have statues dedicated to Nazi generals, but Germany also seems to not let themselves forget their past mistakes. Do they do this whole museum thing?
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I'm having a difficult time finding out what the manufacturing council even does, aside from something vague like "advises Trump on manufacturing".
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On August 16 2017 03:38 Tachion wrote:
I'm having a difficult time finding out what the manufacturing council even does, aside from something vague like "advises Trump on manufacturing".
I think part of the reason so many are quitting is they don't actually do anything
Everyone agrees on this, even Congressional Republicans. Not paying them would cost the government money for no reason beyond hurting insurers. Trump just doesn't care
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On August 16 2017 03:37 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2017 02:57 KwarK wrote:On August 16 2017 02:55 Falling wrote:On August 16 2017 02:22 TheYango wrote:On August 16 2017 02:09 Jockmcplop wrote:
This documentary has enlightened me somewhat as to the mindset of these people.
It reminds me of football fans in the UK in the 80s. They all just look they enjoy chanting and shouting at each other with a fairly small subset who are their for as much violence as they can manage.
At the point where someone's rallying with actual Nazis, you lose my sympathy as someone who "just enjoys chanting and shouting". At the point where you find yourself next to someone waving a Swastika flag, you had several decision points where you could have made the choice that this wasn't something you wanted to be a part of. And at one of those, someone made the choice to stand next to a Nazi. I think reasonable and even unreasonable people saw where this was heading and backed out of it. A bunch of the free speech guys were initially going to be involved and then realized who else was going to be there and said, nope not for me as long as you have those Nazi guys there. They are now glad as all hell they stayed away (see Gavin McInnes for instance). Like, as a history guy I appreciate Lee as a general- similar to Rommel. So I have some sympathy regarding the statue... although even if I was living in that city, I wouldn't care enough to protest its taking down. But supposing I did, and supposing I didn't know in advance who was going to show up... at the point where I see a bunch of Nazi paraphenelia waving around, I'm hopping back in my car and driving home. No thanks, no Nazis for me. The reasonable pro statue view would be for the statue to be respectfully removed and given to a museum where it, and other parts of Confederate history, can be appropriately contextualized. How does Germany handle Nazi stuff? They clearly do not have statues dedicated to Nazi generals, but Germany also seems to not let themselves forget their past mistakes. Do they do this whole museum thing?
As I understand it, Germany doesn't really have Freedom of Speech. Nazi stuff is outlawed. Wearing Swastikas gets you jailed. In light of Nazism's atrocities in Germany, I can get behind such a limitation on Freedom of Speech.
National Socialist parties[edit]
National Socialism is banned outright in Germany as anti-constitutional; it is illegal to found or belong to a Nazi party. Any party considered to be National Socialist can be banned by the Bundesverfassungsgericht, Germany's highest court. Likewise, publications in support of such groups are automatically placed on the Index, and some may be banned altogether.[15]
Materials which express sympathy with National Socialism, however, are a more complicated manner. Ordinarily the printing of these materials does not constitute membership of a National Socialist organization and is therefore allowed. These materials are almost always placed on the Index.
Criminal law also proscribes symbols that are strongly identified with the Nazi Party (such as the Swastika) or that are symbols used often by neo-Nazi successor organizations or racist organizations in general.
There is a debate about whether the German NPD is National Socialist and there have been attempts to ban it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Censorship_in_the_Federal_Republic_of_Germany#National_Socialism_and_Holocaust_denial
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Canada11378 Posts
On August 16 2017 03:34 Trainrunnef wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2017 03:06 Falling wrote:On August 16 2017 02:57 KwarK wrote:On August 16 2017 02:55 Falling wrote:On August 16 2017 02:22 TheYango wrote:On August 16 2017 02:09 Jockmcplop wrote:
This documentary has enlightened me somewhat as to the mindset of these people.
It reminds me of football fans in the UK in the 80s. They all just look they enjoy chanting and shouting at each other with a fairly small subset who are their for as much violence as they can manage.
At the point where someone's rallying with actual Nazis, you lose my sympathy as someone who "just enjoys chanting and shouting". At the point where you find yourself next to someone waving a Swastika flag, you had several decision points where you could have made the choice that this wasn't something you wanted to be a part of. And at one of those, someone made the choice to stand next to a Nazi. I think reasonable and even unreasonable people saw where this was heading and backed out of it. A bunch of the free speech guys were initially going to be involved and then realized who else was going to be there and said, nope not for me as long as you have those Nazi guys there. They are now glad as all hell they stayed away (see Gavin McInnes for instance). Like, as a history guy I appreciate Lee as a general- similar to Rommel. So I have some sympathy regarding the statue... although even if I was living in that city, I wouldn't care enough to protest its taking down. But supposing I did, and supposing I didn't know in advance who was going to show up... at the point where I see a bunch of Nazi paraphenelia waving around, I'm hopping back in my car and driving home. No thanks, no Nazis for me. The reasonable pro statue view would be for the statue to be respectfully removed and given to a museum where it, and other parts of Confederate history, can be appropriately contextualized. That's pretty reasonable to me. I thought that was always the plan??
I said I had sympathy for and also said I wouldn't care enough to protest. In other words, I can understand a point of view different than my own- I can see an argument that could be made that wouldn't involve white supremacy for it's reasoning to defend it staying up.
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United States43292 Posts
On August 16 2017 03:37 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2017 02:57 KwarK wrote:On August 16 2017 02:55 Falling wrote:On August 16 2017 02:22 TheYango wrote:On August 16 2017 02:09 Jockmcplop wrote:
This documentary has enlightened me somewhat as to the mindset of these people.
It reminds me of football fans in the UK in the 80s. They all just look they enjoy chanting and shouting at each other with a fairly small subset who are their for as much violence as they can manage.
At the point where someone's rallying with actual Nazis, you lose my sympathy as someone who "just enjoys chanting and shouting". At the point where you find yourself next to someone waving a Swastika flag, you had several decision points where you could have made the choice that this wasn't something you wanted to be a part of. And at one of those, someone made the choice to stand next to a Nazi. I think reasonable and even unreasonable people saw where this was heading and backed out of it. A bunch of the free speech guys were initially going to be involved and then realized who else was going to be there and said, nope not for me as long as you have those Nazi guys there. They are now glad as all hell they stayed away (see Gavin McInnes for instance). Like, as a history guy I appreciate Lee as a general- similar to Rommel. So I have some sympathy regarding the statue... although even if I was living in that city, I wouldn't care enough to protest its taking down. But supposing I did, and supposing I didn't know in advance who was going to show up... at the point where I see a bunch of Nazi paraphenelia waving around, I'm hopping back in my car and driving home. No thanks, no Nazis for me. The reasonable pro statue view would be for the statue to be respectfully removed and given to a museum where it, and other parts of Confederate history, can be appropriately contextualized. How does Germany handle Nazi stuff? They clearly do not have statues dedicated to Nazi generals, but Germany also seems to not let themselves forget their past mistakes. Do they do this whole museum thing?
I'm pretty sure the Germans never commemorated the Wehrmacht in the first place.
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On August 16 2017 03:37 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2017 02:57 KwarK wrote:On August 16 2017 02:55 Falling wrote:On August 16 2017 02:22 TheYango wrote:On August 16 2017 02:09 Jockmcplop wrote:
This documentary has enlightened me somewhat as to the mindset of these people.
It reminds me of football fans in the UK in the 80s. They all just look they enjoy chanting and shouting at each other with a fairly small subset who are their for as much violence as they can manage.
At the point where someone's rallying with actual Nazis, you lose my sympathy as someone who "just enjoys chanting and shouting". At the point where you find yourself next to someone waving a Swastika flag, you had several decision points where you could have made the choice that this wasn't something you wanted to be a part of. And at one of those, someone made the choice to stand next to a Nazi. I think reasonable and even unreasonable people saw where this was heading and backed out of it. A bunch of the free speech guys were initially going to be involved and then realized who else was going to be there and said, nope not for me as long as you have those Nazi guys there. They are now glad as all hell they stayed away (see Gavin McInnes for instance). Like, as a history guy I appreciate Lee as a general- similar to Rommel. So I have some sympathy regarding the statue... although even if I was living in that city, I wouldn't care enough to protest its taking down. But supposing I did, and supposing I didn't know in advance who was going to show up... at the point where I see a bunch of Nazi paraphenelia waving around, I'm hopping back in my car and driving home. No thanks, no Nazis for me. The reasonable pro statue view would be for the statue to be respectfully removed and given to a museum where it, and other parts of Confederate history, can be appropriately contextualized. How does Germany handle Nazi stuff? They clearly do not have statues dedicated to Nazi generals, but Germany also seems to not let themselves forget their past mistakes. Do they do this whole museum thing?
The best way to understand Germany’s approach is to research the 2016 release of Annotated version of Hitler's Mein Kampf in Germany. Prior to that, the book could not be sold or distributed in the country. The condensed version is they do not believe in history without context after WW2. They refused to have the words of Hilter be reprinted without citations proving how he was wrong side by side.
99% Invisible did a story on it and their approach to history. It is a good listen.
http://99percentinvisible.org/episode/the-giftschrank/
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Canada11378 Posts
I will say this: Trump has a history of beating around the bush when it comes to rejecting the white supremacists. (Who is David Duke and who is the KKK for $100?) That's bad, and so we are seeing a bad pattern extended.
edit.
Above, yeah I fear mob justice, if nothing else for the mistakes that can be made in identification. Looks like no one was physically hurt, but it's not something I would rule out as society swings to the violent extremes.
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http://www.businessinsider.com/trump-russia-emails-devastating-legal-papadopoulos-paul-manafort-2017-8/?r=US&IR=T
The ongoing investigation into whether President Donald Trump's campaign colluded with Moscow during the 2016 election gained new traction on Monday when The Washington Post reported that a foreign-policy adviser, George Papadopolous, sent at least six emails during the campaign offering to set up meetings with Russian leaders.
Papadopolous sent the first email to seven campaign advisers in March 2016 with the subject line "Meeting with Russian Leadership - Including Putin." His requests were reportedly met with hesitancy from multiple campaign officials, including retired Navy Rear Adm. Charles Kubic, who voiced concerns about violating both US sanctions on Russia and the Logan Act, a law forbidding US citizens from negotiating with foreign governments without authorization.
Paul Manafort, Trump's campaign chairman and a current subject in the Russia investigation, also expressed concerns about the proposal and rejected Papadopoulos' request for a meeting between Trump and Russian officials in May 2016, according to The Post.
Manafort's rejection stands in contrast to his willingness to accept a meeting with a Russian lawyer weeks later in June, a point that Renato Mariotti, a former federal prosecutor, raised after the story broke.
Mariotti wrote in a series of tweets that perhaps the most important implication of the news was that "everyone on those emails was aware of the concerns expressed in the emails about meeting with Russians, including Admiral Kubic's concern about the legality of meeting with Russia."
"If anyone on those emails later met with Russians or accepted aid from them," Mariotti continued, "the prior emails about concerns could be used to indicate that they knew that the meeting was problematic and potentially illegal but nonetheless persisted."
The meeting Manafort attended in June included Trump's son Donald Trump Jr. and his son-in-law and senior adviser, Jared Kushner. Also present were Natalia Veselnitskaya, a Russian lawyer with ties to the Kremlin; Rinat Akhmetshin, a Russian lobbyist and former Soviet military intelligence officer; Anatoli Samachornov, a translator; and Rob Goldstone, the British music publicist who arranged the meeting at the request of Aras and Emin Agalarov, a wealthy Russian family.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/trump-campaign-emails-show-aides-repeated-efforts-to-set-up-russia-meetings/2017/08/14/54d08da6-7dc2-11e7-83c7-5bd5460f0d7e_story.html?tid=ss_tw&utm_term=.d33d548ede69
a TL;DR:
The "devastating legal entanglement" referenced is the fact that Manafort pushed back against the idea of meeting with Putin, indicating that he was aware of the legal issues surrounding it. Therefore he can't claim he wasn't aware of the legal issues when he attended the meeting with the Russians a month later.
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I read that this morning. That isn’t good at all and it hurts their cause by being that reckless. I wouldn’t be shocked if it leads to a defamation claim.
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On August 16 2017 00:12 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2017 00:07 Mohdoo wrote:On August 16 2017 00:06 xDaunt wrote:
There's a big difference between a self-avowed Islamic terrorist blowing people up and Obama refusing to call that person an Islamic terrorist and Trump equivocating between Nazi and Antifa factions who are both engaged in bad behavior at what would be an otherwise lawful event (permitting aside). Why are you pretending "bad behavior" has no measure to it? Do you consider Nazis and Antifa morally equivalent? You're asking the wrong questions. Nazis are assholes, but that doesn't mean that they don't have civil rights. They get to organize and hold rallies just like everyone else. So if we put content aside, and look at the behavior of the Nazis and Antifa at the rally, it becomes pretty easy to see the equivalence. Both were looking to start shit, so shit got started.
lol, why am I not surprised to see you defending Nazi civil rights more vociferously than the black people who have theirs systemically violated every day?
I'm just curious if you remember when Fox News mislabeled a man that was helping get people to safety during the shooting of police in Texas as an active shooter of police officers?
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United States43292 Posts
What's your point? That false accusations are bad? Who is this point aimed at?
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On August 16 2017 03:37 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 16 2017 02:57 KwarK wrote:On August 16 2017 02:55 Falling wrote:On August 16 2017 02:22 TheYango wrote:On August 16 2017 02:09 Jockmcplop wrote:
This documentary has enlightened me somewhat as to the mindset of these people.
It reminds me of football fans in the UK in the 80s. They all just look they enjoy chanting and shouting at each other with a fairly small subset who are their for as much violence as they can manage.
At the point where someone's rallying with actual Nazis, you lose my sympathy as someone who "just enjoys chanting and shouting". At the point where you find yourself next to someone waving a Swastika flag, you had several decision points where you could have made the choice that this wasn't something you wanted to be a part of. And at one of those, someone made the choice to stand next to a Nazi. I think reasonable and even unreasonable people saw where this was heading and backed out of it. A bunch of the free speech guys were initially going to be involved and then realized who else was going to be there and said, nope not for me as long as you have those Nazi guys there. They are now glad as all hell they stayed away (see Gavin McInnes for instance). Like, as a history guy I appreciate Lee as a general- similar to Rommel. So I have some sympathy regarding the statue... although even if I was living in that city, I wouldn't care enough to protest its taking down. But supposing I did, and supposing I didn't know in advance who was going to show up... at the point where I see a bunch of Nazi paraphenelia waving around, I'm hopping back in my car and driving home. No thanks, no Nazis for me. The reasonable pro statue view would be for the statue to be respectfully removed and given to a museum where it, and other parts of Confederate history, can be appropriately contextualized. How does Germany handle Nazi stuff? They clearly do not have statues dedicated to Nazi generals, but Germany also seems to not let themselves forget their past mistakes. Do they do this whole museum thing?
Since no one answered the part about museums, the Germans obviously includes WW2 and the nazi period in their museums (see the Dresden military museum). They put heavy emphasis on removing any "prestige" from their army and give a lot of importance on the negative part of the war, including but not limited to the holocaust.
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On August 16 2017 04:15 KwarK wrote:What's your point? That false accusations are bad? Who is this point aimed at?
All the members of antifa that post in the thread, obviously
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EPT
