EPTUS Politics Mega-thread - Page 7671
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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please. In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. | ||
Falling
Canada11355 Posts
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Danglars
United States12133 Posts
On May 29 2017 10:58 Falling wrote: Here is the email in its entirety. Exegete it and show me. + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/e5CwA9M.jpg) The reality is, you and I have not had many back and forth exchanges, so one shouldn't preclude the outcome before starting. I need to go to a racial sensitivity training. It would take a series of classes to find what is racist about that email. Forget about how we're justifying oppression to expose oppression, he used phenotype and shouldn't have! I have trouble these days distinguishing between "That protestor is so outlandish you're just trying to tar the movement by picking its most unrepresentative agent" And "Of course it's racist you dimwit! He's stupid for writing it, POC can't be oppressive and to say otherwise is bigotry pure and simple." Poe's law needs a corollary for Poe's race-baiter: Trying to identify a parody of a racism accuser from actual sincere racist accusations is becoming impossible. Would that this madness end sometime this century. | ||
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TheTenthDoc
United States9561 Posts
On May 29 2017 13:42 Danglars wrote: I need to go to a racial sensitivity training. It would take a series of classes to find what is racist about that email. Forget about how we're justifying oppression to expose oppression, he used phenotype and shouldn't have! I have trouble these days distinguishing between "That protestor is so outlandish you're just trying to tar the movement by picking its most unrepresentative agent" And "Of course it's racist you dimwit! He's stupid for writing it, POC can't be oppressive and to say otherwise is bigotry pure and simple." Poe's law needs a corollary for Poe's race-baiter: Trying to identify a parody of a racism accuser from actual sincere racist accusations is becoming impossible. Would that this madness end sometime this century. I dunno, I don't think it takes racial sensitivity training to see that discussing "phenotypic race" dismissively while pitching the merits of your own "scientific/evolutionary" perspective of race would piss people off. I mean, usually doing the latter alone is more than sufficient. My mental parallel is kind of "I'm going to hold class on Easter because it marginalizes atheists to cancel class that day. Oh, and I'm willing to host a seminar on the biologic and neurologic motivations of religion." It's inexact, of course. | ||
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Uldridge
Belgium4800 Posts
On May 29 2017 13:28 Mercy13 wrote: Have you ever spoken to a person of color about why they think safe spaces are important? I know why they're important to them and I'm saying I don't agree. It's not just PoC, it's every minority group. I think there are better ways to get rid of the feeling of (misplaced and/or unmeant) judgement, loss of connection and unease that they think can't be done in any other way. Insulating yourself when you see fit doesn't address the problems at all. How is needing a (temporary) social divide where handpicked social rules apply, because the norm is too much of a psychological burden a good thing? It's (temporary) segregation, something that is combated so it can disappear. Or is that just a clever way of saying: "See? How does that feel like, being not included?" Is that it? Is the majority simply too demanding and nosy and too much of a meddler? | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States23250 Posts
On May 29 2017 13:42 Danglars wrote: I need to go to a racial sensitivity training. It would take a series of classes to find what is racist about that email. Forget about how we're justifying oppression to expose oppression, he used phenotype and shouldn't have! I have trouble these days distinguishing between "That protestor is so outlandish you're just trying to tar the movement by picking its most unrepresentative agent" And "Of course it's racist you dimwit! He's stupid for writing it, POC can't be oppressive and to say otherwise is bigotry pure and simple." Poe's law needs a corollary for Poe's race-baiter: Trying to identify a parody of a racism accuser from actual sincere racist accusations is becoming impossible. Would that this madness end sometime this century. No what you need they don't have at those trainings usually. You need the type of confrontation only fate can bring you where you realize the glaring and unfortunate errors of your casual yet proud ignorance. But you got as good a chance at getting that there as anywhere else, probably better, so yeah, you should go. Not like you don't have the resources to make time. | ||
Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
On May 29 2017 10:36 GreenHorizons wrote: What is the outcome? People say idiotic things like they would have if it didn't happen. Since they brought us here in chains they've been complaining about us getting to loud/inaccurate with our complaints. It has nothing to do with the substance of the complaints. Very dramatic. Most of the people in that video appeared to be white... Anyone using this as an example of "the intolerant left" is espousing a perspective that's not going to change based on them better articulating why the professor was being an idiot. Responsible allies would say something to effect of "If only they didn't insist on perpetuating white supremacy, perhaps we could avoid situations like this" I don't think, in the short term anyway, that trying to change the hardliners opinion should be a goal, but rather to not give them easy talking points to influence people who simply aren't as aware of the issue. Along these lines I happen to think that it's important for responses to be measured (to maintain credibility), and to avoid rhetoric that causes people to shell up. (Sidenote: not a huge fan of many of the terms thrown around for this reason even though I think some of them sound pretty fitting when reflecting on them, the initial reaction is defensive and i dont know if most people get past that). EDIT: OR they could try whatever style it is yall expect from POC. But let's dispense of the preposterous notion that racism is perpetuated not by racists, but by the oppressed people not properly courting their racist oppressors. I'm not sure how this is related to my reply at all? I dont believe I suggested anything of the sort. My position is that this kind of reaction harms the movement not that there isnt a problem. And btw, having read the email I dont know if I would have independently classified it as racist but certainly condescending. EDIT: I'll admit that having said all this, I'm not sure what an alternative solution would be to actually drawing attention to problems. | ||
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Karis Vas Ryaar
United States4396 Posts
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GreenHorizons
United States23250 Posts
On May 29 2017 14:13 Liquid`Jinro wrote: Very dramatic. Most of the people in that video appeared to be white... I don't think, in the short term anyway, that trying to change the hardliners opinion should be a goal, but rather to not give them easy talking points to influence people who simply aren't as aware of the issue. Along these lines I happen to think that it's important for responses to be measured (to maintain credibility), and to avoid rhetoric that causes people to shell up. (Sidenote: not a huge fan of many of the terms thrown around for this reason even though I think some of them sound pretty fitting when reflecting on them, the initial reaction is defensive and i dont know if most people get past that). I'm not sure how this is related to my reply at all? I dont believe I suggested anything of the sort. My position is that this kind of reaction harms the movement not that there isnt a problem. And btw, having read the email I dont know if I would have independently classified it as racist but certainly condescending. EDIT: I'll admit that having said all this, I'm not sure what an alternative solution would be to actually drawing attention to problems. Whatever it is, I'm sure it's been tried. From Fredrick Douglass, through James Baldwin, to Cornell West, MLK jr. Malcolm X, from Harriet Tubman, to Sojourner Truth, Fred Hampton, Ida B Wells, Jackie Robinson, Langston Hughes, W.E.B. Debois, Nat Turner, Claudia Jones, on and on and ON AND ON AND ON AND ON.... I think you get the point. There is no shortage of articulate, kind, polite, rage filled, thorough, poetic, etc... explanations of what is going on. It's just a long and persistent refusal of white people to come to grips with the realities POC have and continue to face in a country that's always welcomed them to do the back breaking labor needed to build it, and the soul sucking, body shattering entertainment this country can't live without, but when it comes to enjoying the fruits of that labor, the liberties and grace bestowed by our creator and promised by our founding documents, this country and more specifically the white people in it have never seen us as deserving. | ||
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Danglars
United States12133 Posts
On May 29 2017 14:04 GreenHorizons wrote: No what you need they don't have at those trainings usually. You need the type of confrontation only fate can bring you where you realize the glaring and unfortunate errors of your casual yet proud ignorance. But you got as good a chance at getting that there as anywhere else, probably better, so yeah, you should go. Not like you don't have the resources to make time. I too often deal with African Americans that have jobs and we just interact as friendly people whose business brings us together. Maybe in future I can meet more grievance-associated blacks who can really tell me the a-z in racist emails. I suppose my subtle oppression limits them from truly speaking their minds, or fate hasn't intervened enough, or Los Angeles only has blacks of Uncle Tom character. I seriously hardly know anymore. For now I'll have to persist in my quandry between true activists or parodies of activists. I'm sure you understand that my skin color prevents me from true enlightenment. | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States23250 Posts
On May 29 2017 14:47 Danglars wrote: I too often deal with African Americans that have jobs and we just interact as friendly people whose business brings us together. Maybe in future I can meet more grievance-associated blacks who can really tell me the a-z in racist emails. I suppose my subtle oppression limits them from truly speaking their minds, or fate hasn't intervened enough, or Los Angeles only has blacks of Uncle Tom character. I seriously hardly know anymore. For now I'll have to persist in my quandry between true activists or parodies of activists. I'm sure you understand that my skin color prevents me from true enlightenment. I love that you're so oblivious that you can't imagine for a moment why "African Americans that have jobs" and "business brings us together" might not be engaging with you in an entirely frank and forthcoming way regarding their concerns about race and is a pretty hilarious example of white fragility. I know LA has bars predominately patronized by black people, go there and have an honest discussion about racism, you'll get more honest conversation than you find from black people you do business with. Are you an activist for black people to get their constitutional rights and to reduce/eliminate institutional/systemic racism or a parody? It's not your skin color, your argument suggests it's more a result of a superiority complex. | ||
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Danglars
United States12133 Posts
On May 29 2017 14:54 GreenHorizons wrote: I love that you're so oblivious that you can't imagine for a moment why "African Americans that have jobs" and "business brings us together" might not be engaging with you in an entirely frank and forthcoming way regarding their concerns about race and is a pretty hilarious example of white fragility. I know LA has bars predominately patronized by black people, go there and have an honest discussion about racism, you'll get more honest conversation than you find from black people you do business with. Are you an activist for black people to get their constitutional rights and to reduce/eliminate institutional/systemic racism or a parody? It's not your skin color, your argument suggests it's more a result of a superiority complex. Because blacks that have jobs aren't sufficiently oppressed to have an honest dialogue. Your racism aside, I've had honest discussions and the summary is GH-types don't speak for me. They laugh off these stories like other guys do of dumb college students with no clue about the real world. But yeah, you go whole hog disavowing other blacks about having views of their rights and the racism of others. I'd expect no less. I gather from them that other agitator sorts don't expect racial heterogeneity. They just want to marginalized the views of other blacks in pursuit of concessions from the state. But go on pushing your agenda irrespective of how backwards it feels to LA. I'd expect nothing less. | ||
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Artisreal
Germany9235 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + That's basically what you just said about black ppl laughing off discrimination. Maybe some can, but don't expect everyone to follow suit sucking up. Oh an yes, of course only jobless blacks are feeling oppressed. Good point. | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States23250 Posts
On May 29 2017 15:33 Danglars wrote: Because blacks that have jobs aren't sufficiently oppressed to have an honest dialogue. Your racism aside, I've had honest discussions and the summary is GH-types don't speak for me. They laugh off these stories like other guys do of dumb college students with no clue about the real world. But yeah, you go whole hog disavowing other blacks about having views of their rights and the racism of others. I'd expect no less. I gather from them that other agitator sorts don't expect racial heterogeneity. They just want to marginalized the views of other blacks in pursuit of concessions from the state. But go on pushing your agenda irrespective of how backwards it feels to LA. I'd expect nothing less. That you genuinely don't see how oblivious this post is amuses me enough to not be insulted. Because blacks that have jobs aren't sufficiently oppressed to have an honest dialogue. Like, this really is gold. That you've tried to make this into me disregarding the diversity of black experience is a comical turn. Like you genuinely think that you have more respect for and understanding of the range of black experiences in this country. Because you deal with African Americans that have jobs and we just interact as friendly people whose business brings us together I mean, damn. I hope one day this post is as embarrassing as it should be, but it probably wont be until one day a long time from now. I think you answered my earlier question about whether you're an activist or a parody. | ||
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FueledUpAndReadyToGo
Netherlands30548 Posts
but That does not mean that every single idea in the name of combating racism and inequality must be de-facto a good idea and that every action taken in name of combating racism/inequality is a good action. The professor disagreed that the idea of encouraging people to stay away from the college based on skin colour is a helpful idea. For protesting against this idea (even if his tone in the email might be condescending ) he gets surrounded by angry students hurling abuse, shouting, not willing to talk, and blocking his path and demanding his resignation. It's not an acceptable response and it makes no sense so that's why I was ridiculing it. | ||
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Schmobutzen
Germany284 Posts
The behavior of these protesters is just wrong, hell I could imagine that if they went back home and told this story to their grandma she would shake her head and say that maybe their intentions were good, but their actions weren't. Without a doubt is the USoA inherently racist. No arguing. In what degree and exactly where is maybe debatable. Nevertheless, no protest against it should use means that will hinder the cause, especially if it will be of any moral weight. So, the best protest is a good talk. Shutting down protesters, in any shape, is venturing in a very dangerous steering because it gives the other side the same weapon, and most of the time the more powerful side will then prevail. The Prof protests against this day and he gave reasons and was willing to engage in a discussion about it. This is the best possible outcome! Let's say he discusses and finds the arguments of the protesters convincing and maybe he changes his attitude, then this would be a win for everybody. It could be that even some of the protesters will change their attitude towards him or to their self or even their own group - great. Diversity in opinions and way of living, so long as no one's freedom is scalped, that would be a truly remarkable thing. This entails the removal of the clearer racial hindrances in the systems of the US, but that can only be discussed in earnest and with patience, as it is clear that it will take a longer time to make it right. But removing the voice of a protester, of which side ever, is a hindrance to said diversity. | ||
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Biff The Understudy
France7890 Posts
On May 29 2017 13:40 Falling wrote: At the above exchange, (make that previous page) I'm for some reason reminded of a hilarious anecdote from the Rubin Report where Rubin and Tommy Sotomayor were comparing notes from working in comedy clubs. Basically, they knew they could get a successful night if they could get the black audience laughing. For Tommy, he found the white audience too patronizing- "oh, you tried" but wouldn't say a negative word, whereas the black audience came to boo, so if he got them on board, he was good. Whereas for Rubin, the white audience was too uptight, too nervous to laugh at the edgy jokes, but if the black audience got laughing, then the whites took that as permission that they could laugh too and joined in. I thought it was pretty amusing. Something like that: | ||
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micronesia
United States24690 Posts
Paris mayor condemns black festival, says it bars whites PARIS — Paris Mayor Anne Hidalgo has strongly criticized a black feminist festival in Paris that bans non-black people in large parts of the event, saying she might call for the prosecution of its organizers on grounds of discrimination. In a series of angry tweets Sunday, Hidalgo said she will call on authorities to ban the three-day July cultural festival that she said was “forbidden to white people.” France defines itself on its revolutionary values of uniting under one common national identity, regardless of race and religious differences, with laws to stop discrimination based on race. The Nyansapo Festival organizers say that “we have chosen to put the accent on how our resistance as an Afro-feminist movement is organized.” Rights groups have called it a step backward on race issues. Source - Washington Post edit: another article: Sec. John Kelly: Intelligence Leaks Are ‘Darn Close To Treason’ Homeland Security Secretary John Kelly on Sunday condemned intelligence leaks after the Manchester attack as "darn close to treason." The sharing of intelligence related to the case between British counterterrorism police and U.S. officials was briefly paused after pictures from the scene of Monday's deadly Ariana Grande concert bombing were published in the New York Times - and authenticated to NBC News by a senior U.S. law enforcement official. The name of the suspected attacker was also released to the press. "I believe when you leak the kind of information that seems to be routinely leaked - high, high level of classification… I think it's darn close to treason," Kelly told NBC's "Meet The Press." ....continued in link below. Source - NBC News It's interesting... although leaking classified information can be treasonous, it is not treasonous simply because the leaked info was classified. That's another crime. So what if you are someone who is allowed to leak whatever classified information you want because of your job title? What stops the leak from being treasonous then? | ||
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Gahlo
United States35154 Posts
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Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
On May 29 2017 20:07 Schmobutzen wrote: In response to Jinro, no, I don't find his email even condescending. I think the last paragraph is problematic, and if I was in the group affected by this I could see myself feeling talked down by it. But it's hard to evaluate it without bias knowing what happened, for me anyway. The behavior of these protesters is just wrong, hell I could imagine that if they went back home and told this story to their grandma she would shake her head and say that maybe their intentions were good, but their actions weren't. Without a doubt is the USoA inherently racist. No arguing. In what degree and exactly where is maybe debatable. Nevertheless, no protest against it should use means that will hinder the cause, especially if it will be of any moral weight. So, the best protest is a good talk. Shutting down protesters, in any shape, is venturing in a very dangerous steering because it gives the other side the same weapon, and most of the time the more powerful side will then prevail. The Prof protests against this day and he gave reasons and was willing to engage in a discussion about it. This is the best possible outcome! Let's say he discusses and finds the arguments of the protesters convincing and maybe he changes his attitude, then this would be a win for everybody. It could be that even some of the protesters will change their attitude towards him or to their self or even their own group - great. Diversity in opinions and way of living, so long as no one's freedom is scalped, that would be a truly remarkable thing. This entails the removal of the clearer racial hindrances in the systems of the US, but that can only be discussed in earnest and with patience, as it is clear that it will take a longer time to make it right. But removing the voice of a protester, of which side ever, is a hindrance to said diversity. Agreed with all of this. | ||
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farvacola
United States18828 Posts
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