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Russia's game here is simple. The Seth Rich story is out and out lies, full stop. So what does Russia gain here? The hardcore 20% of the country that devours Conservative Entertainment (FOX, Breitbart, AM Radio) believe the Seth Rich lies. That sows division and distrust about reality and the trustworthy media. Getting Conservatives to believes lies is an end in and of itself. Actual journalism is weakened every time that 20% chooses to swallow lies and refuses to accept that their narratives are just self soothing rubbish.
http://money.cnn.com/2017/05/16/media/seth-rich-family-response-claims-of-wikileaks-contact/
EDIT: there is no debate here. If you swallow this crap you are just lying to yourself to make yourself feel better.
It was CNN who drove in the final nail. Oliver Darcy reported that Wheeler said he had no evidence suggesting Rich contacted Wikileaks. “I only got that [information] from the reporter at Fox News,” he told CNN. Wheeler said he was only trying to “preview” the news for Fox 5, but, according to his story, they ran with it. Wheeler’s explanation is certainly convenient for him, but it doesn’t make any sense.
https://www.washingtonian.com/2017/05/17/fox-5-seth-rich-story-disintegrated-made-no-sense/
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On May 20 2017 01:57 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2017 01:56 Plansix wrote:
I am troubled by the fact that Russia is latching onto and feeding into the conspiracy theories now being peddled by Fox News. I could ignore Info Wars as a fringe thing, but not this. Do you not consider the Seth Rich murder to be worth investigating by journalists? I have no idea what happened to him or why, but the circumstances of his murder stink.
What if there is no evidence or they haven’t’ found anything? From my understanding they did look into and found nothing. Should they keep digging forever just because Infowars and the conspiracy theory mill decided it might have been the DNC?
And why? We know how the DNC got hacked. We know the internal error that lead to it. Targeting phishing attempts can be very advanced.
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On May 20 2017 01:57 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2017 01:56 Plansix wrote:
I am troubled by the fact that Russia is latching onto and feeding into the conspiracy theories now being peddled by Fox News. I could ignore Info Wars as a fringe thing, but not this. Do you not consider the Seth Rich murder to be worth investigating by journalists? I have no idea what happened to him or why, but the circumstances of his murder stink.
What us your reasoning? Do you wish every murder in america solved? Do you believe he leaked thousands of emails to wikileaks like fox falsely claims? Do you want it to take attention away from the criminal dumpster fire that is the white house? Or do you just latch on to every narative and buzz word that faux news breitbart and RT peddles?
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This is all I am hearing from FP experts on NPR. The Middle East autocrats and dictators love the idea of an easily flattered president that won’t ask them about human rights. They seem his as an easy person to manipulate.
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On May 20 2017 01:35 Doodsmack wrote:+ Show Spoiler +https://twitter.com/russianembassy/status/865571158862811136
Looks like Russia has decided that Seth Rich was murdered. How would they know? ))))))))))))))))))))
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On May 20 2017 02:04 Plansix wrote:This is all I am hearing from FP experts on NPR. The Middle East autocrats and dictators love the idea of an easily flattered president that won’t ask them about human rights. They seem his as an easy person to manipulate.
Foreign policy in dealing with Trump is so easy. Any country that wants a good deal w/ the US has to praise Trump a bit and they can basically bargain for what they want. Essentially they have to pat him on the back a bit publicly and they will get the best deals folks.
Also is there an investigation surrounding that DNC staffer who got murdered?
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On May 20 2017 02:04 Plansix wrote:This is all I am hearing from FP experts on NPR. The Middle East autocrats and dictators love the idea of an easily flattered president that won’t ask them about human rights. They seem his as an easy person to manipulate.
- Hey mr President, you have a much biglier dick than your predecessor!
- Did someone say WEAPONS DEAL???
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On May 20 2017 01:35 Doodsmack wrote:
lol as if they could be any more obvious they are the ones running some of these fake news sites.
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On May 20 2017 02:10 biology]major wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2017 02:04 Plansix wrote:This is all I am hearing from FP experts on NPR. The Middle East autocrats and dictators love the idea of an easily flattered president that won’t ask them about human rights. They seem his as an easy person to manipulate. Foreign policy in dealing with Trump is so easy. Any country that wants a good deal w/ the US has to praise Trump a bit and they can basically bargain for what they want. Essentially they have to pat him on the back a bit publicly and they will get the best deals folks. Also is there an investigation surrounding that DNC staffer who got murdered?
It is unsolved and still "open" from my reading. It is just a murder in a city with a high crime rate until there is some other evidence out there.
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United States43964 Posts
Dislike of Putin and his regime is entirely natural. We talk a lot about fascism but Putin's Russia has long been a textbook example of what we need to be afraid of. It's ethno-nationalism with an obsession of unifying around a strong leader who can lead and represent the collective idea of the people and reclaim the historical birthright of glory that was denied by the weak/effete liberals who led the nation to ruin.
Not enough is made of the specific philosophical and historical notes that come with fascism, despite the word being an Italian reference to the Roman fasces. It's not just totalitarianism, 1984 was totalitarian but it wasn't fascist. Fascists believe that the people and therefore the nation have a birthright, proven through their historical glory (Rome for Mussolini, Frederick the Great for Hitler, the victories of the Soviet Union for Putin) which was denied by the weak men who followed them (November Traitors, everyone in Russia in the 1990s). The people must unify behind the chosen one who personifies the idea of the people and let him lead them back to their destiny.
It's part of the reason that /r/the_donald are traditional fascists. It's not just about absolute rule for them, it's about reclaiming the glorious past through a purge of the weak elites by the brownshirts in the name of their glorious leader. I'm not saying that Trump specifically encourages that sort of fascism but the American fascists have absolutely made him their icon.
Anyway, to bring it back to the point, if you want to know what modern fascism looks like then Putin is your man. It doesn't have to be totalitarian, although he's certainly working on that in Russia, but it does have to have elements of recovering national pride and glory from a shameful past.
Russia is an ideological enemy of the United States because Russia is fascist and a fascist Russia simply cannot exist without starting shit with the former Soviet satellites. It's a self justifying ideology, the leader is empowered by the need for national pride and every achievement, from remilitarizing the Rhineland to annexing the Crimea, further empowers the leader. Stagnation is not possible, Putin can no more stop at Crimea than Hitler could at Austria, and that is a problem.
Sorry to bring us back to the whole fascism thing but Russophobia making a comeback is actually a good thing. We're right to be worried about Putin's Russia. It'd be great if we could be friends with them but we also cannot ignore the nature of what we're dealing with.
Fascism and totalitarianism often overlap but they're not synonymous. For example North Korea isn't fascist, it doesn't look backwards and seek vengeance against the criminals who corrupted the glorious legacy of X, it looks forwards to the glorious future in the worker's paradise. Still shit, but not the same kind of shit. Same with Saddam.
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On May 20 2017 02:10 biology]major wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2017 02:04 Plansix wrote:This is all I am hearing from FP experts on NPR. The Middle East autocrats and dictators love the idea of an easily flattered president that won’t ask them about human rights. They seem his as an easy person to manipulate. Foreign policy in dealing with Trump is so easy. Any country that wants a good deal w/ the US has to praise Trump a bit and they can basically bargain for what they want. Essentially they have to pat him on the back a bit publicly and they will get the best deals folks. Also is there an investigation surrounding that DNC staffer who got murdered?
I think giving him (personally, or his company) special treatment is the easier way to go. Maybe a combination of both.
Like all the reports about how he, ever since becomming president suddenly was allowed to build (buy?) hotels in China and elsewhere that he wasn't for years before that.
If you're a country(-leader) that doesn't care that much about corruption and bribery, offer him personally something worth 100million (figure taken out of my ass) and your country gets something in return that's probably worth way more.
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I'm not sure we know the emails wikileaks put out were hacked and not leaked.
The DNC servers were never even given over to any of the agencies people like to site as all agreeing on the hacks.
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On May 20 2017 01:57 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2017 01:56 Plansix wrote:
I am troubled by the fact that Russia is latching onto and feeding into the conspiracy theories now being peddled by Fox News. I could ignore Info Wars as a fringe thing, but not this. Do you not consider the Seth Rich murder to be worth investigating by journalists? I have no idea what happened to him or why, but the circumstances of his murder stink.
Is pizzagate worth investigating by journalists? Anything can be made to appear stinky. Its very easy to say there is some lack of certainty in something. Showing we are not at 100% certainty regarding some event is kind of like asking someone to prove a negative. What you are saying about it being stinky is not a justification for any kind of further investigation because that same logic can be applied to an enormous range of scenarios.
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On May 20 2017 02:17 GreenHorizons wrote:
I'm not sure we know the emails wikileaks put out were hacked and not leaked.
The DNC servers were never even given over to any of the agencies people like to site as all agreeing on the hacks.
They gave them over to law enforcement. Are you talking about private agencies?
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On May 20 2017 02:22 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2017 02:17 GreenHorizons wrote:
I'm not sure we know the emails wikileaks put out were hacked and not leaked.
The DNC servers were never even given over to any of the agencies people like to site as all agreeing on the hacks. They gave them over to law enforcement. Are you talking about private agencies?
The way I understood it, the DNC servers were never inspected by the FBI or any of the US Intelligence agencies. They were inspected by Crowdstrike.
http://edition.cnn.com/2017/01/05/politics/fbi-russia-hacking-dnc-crowdstrike/index.html
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On May 20 2017 02:19 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2017 01:57 xDaunt wrote:On May 20 2017 01:56 Plansix wrote:
I am troubled by the fact that Russia is latching onto and feeding into the conspiracy theories now being peddled by Fox News. I could ignore Info Wars as a fringe thing, but not this. Do you not consider the Seth Rich murder to be worth investigating by journalists? I have no idea what happened to him or why, but the circumstances of his murder stink. Is pizzagate worth investigating by journalists? Anything can be made to appear stinky. Its very easy to say there is some lack of certainty in something. Showing we are not at 100% certainty regarding some event is kind of like asking someone to prove a negative. What you are saying about it being stinky is not a justification for any kind of further investigation because that same logic can be applied to an enormous range of scenarios.
Did Glenn Beck rape and murder a girl in 1990? I am just asking questions.
Just asking questions (JAQ-ing off) is a way of attempting to make wild accusations acceptable (and hopefully not legally actionable) by framing them as questions rather than statements. It shifts the burden of proof to one's opponent — rather than laboriously having to prove that all politicians are reptoid scum, one can pull out one single odd piece of evidence and force the opponent to explain why the evidence is wrong.
It should be noted that accusing one's opponent of "just asking questions" is a common derailment tactic and a way of poisoning the well. Asking questions in and of itself is NOT invalid.
http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Just_asking_questions
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On May 20 2017 02:22 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2017 02:17 GreenHorizons wrote:
I'm not sure we know the emails wikileaks put out were hacked and not leaked.
The DNC servers were never even given over to any of the agencies people like to site as all agreeing on the hacks. They gave them over to law enforcement. Are you talking about private agencies?
Did they? Which ones? Not the FBI? I mean the
We have 17, 17 intelligence agencies, civilian and military who have all concluded that these espionage attacks, these cyber attacks, come from the highest levels of the Kremlin. And they are designed to influence our election. I find that deeply disturbing,
which people interpret to mean that 17 agencies all agree that the DNC hacks were Russia and given to wikileaks.
I'm saying Wikileaks denies that they got them from hacks at all and says they were leaked, and there isn't this concrete surety about the DNC emails being a result of a Russian hack as you are suggesting.
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On May 20 2017 02:28 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2017 02:22 Plansix wrote:On May 20 2017 02:17 GreenHorizons wrote:
I'm not sure we know the emails wikileaks put out were hacked and not leaked.
The DNC servers were never even given over to any of the agencies people like to site as all agreeing on the hacks. They gave them over to law enforcement. Are you talking about private agencies? Did they? Which ones? Not the FBI? I mean the Show nested quote +We have 17, 17 intelligence agencies, civilian and military who have all concluded that these espionage attacks, these cyber attacks, come from the highest levels of the Kremlin. And they are designed to influence our election. I find that deeply disturbing, which people interpret to mean that 17 agencies all agree that the DNC hacks were Russia and given to wikileaks. I'm saying Wikileaks denies that they got them from hacks at all and says they were leaked, and there isn't this concrete surety about the DNC emails being a result of a Russian hack as you are suggesting.
There is no evidence that has convinced you, is what you are saying. The CIA and several private firms have stated that they believe it was Russia. That is not sufficient for you, which is fine. I will amend my statement and say that a lot of people believe the hacks were the result targeted phishing by Russia and not an internal leak.
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I believe it more likely they were hacks because of the technical competency long displayed by the democratic party.
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EPT
