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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

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Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
zlefin
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
United States7689 Posts
April 26 2017 18:02 GMT
#148121
trump proposing a trump friendly tax plan, no surprise there. trump likes his inherited wealth too.
Great read: http://shorensteincenter.org/news-coverage-2016-general-election/ great book on democracy: http://press.princeton.edu/titles/10671.html zlefin is grumpier due to long term illness. Ignoring some users.
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States23266 Posts
April 26 2017 18:08 GMT
#148122
On April 27 2017 03:02 zlefin wrote:
trump proposing a trump friendly tax plan, no surprise there. trump likes his inherited wealth too.


Bit surprising it was so blatant, but that's his MO too. Sounds like they are wrapping up the repatriation into it as well. Since that's something Democrats planned on doing as well this could get passed if Republicans just give Democrats a little bit.

It will be a disastrous tax plan, but that won't matter.
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
April 26 2017 18:13 GMT
#148123
I could see reworking the capital gains tax if there are problem. Repealing it is something that sound great you are deep into the idea that the robber barons and aristocracy were cool to have around.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
Mohdoo
Profile Joined August 2007
United States15690 Posts
April 26 2017 18:28 GMT
#148124
On April 27 2017 02:58 GreenHorizons wrote:
Repealing the death tax is just point blank saying generational wealth > hard work.


Yeah, its awful. Its inheritance for fucks sake. You did nothing.
opisska
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
Poland8852 Posts
April 26 2017 18:37 GMT
#148125
On April 27 2017 03:28 Mohdoo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 27 2017 02:58 GreenHorizons wrote:
Repealing the death tax is just point blank saying generational wealth > hard work.


Yeah, its awful. Its inheritance for fucks sake. You did nothing.


This is probably a good tie to ask: why are people so in love with taxing inheritance? I understand the attraction of taxing "having accumulated a lot of wealth", but why is it so clear that this should be done at the point of someone dying? At the end what it makes is that the family has some wealth and you take a piece every time someone who holds a significant part of the wealth to his name dies. If they manage to hold the wealth with one person for a long time, you take less, if they place their survival bets incorrectly, and the wealth needs to change hands often, you take more ... is that really so sensible?

I see what inheritance tax is trying to achieve, but I am not sure if a small flat yearly rate on wealth (accumulating on average the same part as the inheritence tax does) wouldn't be more fair.
"Jeez, that's far from ideal." - Serral, the king of mild trashtalk
TL+ Member
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States23266 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-04-26 18:43:02
April 26 2017 18:39 GMT
#148126
On April 27 2017 03:28 Mohdoo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 27 2017 02:58 GreenHorizons wrote:
Repealing the death tax is just point blank saying generational wealth > hard work.


Yeah, its awful. Its inheritance for fucks sake. You did nothing.


It's remarkably stupid. It inevitably ends up concentrating even more wealth at a top even more devoid of merit.

Who better to herald in such a change than the golden man-child himself.

On April 27 2017 03:37 opisska wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 27 2017 03:28 Mohdoo wrote:
On April 27 2017 02:58 GreenHorizons wrote:
Repealing the death tax is just point blank saying generational wealth > hard work.


Yeah, its awful. Its inheritance for fucks sake. You did nothing.


This is probably a good tie to ask: why are people so in love with taxing inheritance? I understand the attraction of taxing "having accumulated a lot of wealth", but why is it so clear that this should be done at the point of someone dying? At the end what it makes is that the family has some wealth and you take a piece every time someone who holds a significant part of the wealth to his name dies. If they manage to hold the wealth with one person for a long time, you take less, if they place their survival bets incorrectly, and the wealth needs to change hands often, you take more ... is that really so sensible?

I see what inheritance tax is trying to achieve, but I am not sure if a small flat yearly rate on wealth (accumulating on average the same part as the inheritence tax does) wouldn't be more fair.


Yes that makes sense. But they are having a problem with someone being gifted billions of dollars paying even 1 penny of taxes on money they literally didn't earn. We are pretty far from a wealth tax.
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States42864 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-04-26 18:47:51
April 26 2017 18:44 GMT
#148127
On April 27 2017 03:37 opisska wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 27 2017 03:28 Mohdoo wrote:
On April 27 2017 02:58 GreenHorizons wrote:
Repealing the death tax is just point blank saying generational wealth > hard work.


Yeah, its awful. Its inheritance for fucks sake. You did nothing.


This is probably a good tie to ask: why are people so in love with taxing inheritance? I understand the attraction of taxing "having accumulated a lot of wealth", but why is it so clear that this should be done at the point of someone dying? At the end what it makes is that the family has some wealth and you take a piece every time someone who holds a significant part of the wealth to his name dies. If they manage to hold the wealth with one person for a long time, you take less, if they place their survival bets incorrectly, and the wealth needs to change hands often, you take more ... is that really so sensible?

I see what inheritance tax is trying to achieve, but I am not sure if a small flat yearly rate on wealth (accumulating on average the same part as the inheritence tax does) wouldn't be more fair.

There is this idea that the same person shouldn't be taxed on the same money twice. It's a little silly because they are taxed on it multiple times all the time, but people don't seem to like the idea. So the principle is that when you get the money you pay the government their share and then the rest of the money is yours forever. If you use the money to make more money then you're only taxed on the new money you get back, not the old money that had already been taxed when you got it the first time etc... Sales tax somewhat fucks with that idea because when you turn your money into a possession of equal value then you're taxed again but conservatives fucking love sales taxes (because they're regressive). In a rational system the basis of the object you bought with your post-tax money would be the purchase price and taxes would only be levied if you recognized a capital gain on the sale of that object but the system is built on hypocrisy.

Ultimately the left want the estate tax because it's a tax on unearned wealth among the very rich, thus allowing them to lower taxes on the working population and hate sales taxes because they consume a far higher proportion of the disposable income for the poor than they do for the rich. Meanwhile the right love sales taxes and hate estate taxes for the exact same reasons.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-04-26 18:45:10
April 26 2017 18:45 GMT
#148128
It is also difficult to tax any assets that are just sitting there. We only really tax assets when they change hands(income).
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States42864 Posts
April 26 2017 18:48 GMT
#148129
On April 27 2017 03:45 Plansix wrote:
It is also difficult to tax any assets that are just sitting there. We only really tax assets when they change hands(income).

It's easy enough to tax them, the hard part is valuing them. A transaction gives you a declared value.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
Wulfey_LA
Profile Joined April 2017
932 Posts
April 26 2017 18:54 GMT
#148130
The Reagan tax reform act of 1986 was 879 pages. The current Trump Tax Cut is 1 page of bullet points that talks about "talking with stakeholders" and principles. Trump is just running words out there to try and spin up his 100 day mark.

http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/STATUTE-100/pdf/STATUTE-100-Pg2085.pdf
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
April 26 2017 19:00 GMT
#148131
On April 27 2017 03:48 KwarK wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 27 2017 03:45 Plansix wrote:
It is also difficult to tax any assets that are just sitting there. We only really tax assets when they change hands(income).

It's easy enough to tax them, the hard part is valuing them. A transaction gives you a declared value.

Study tax history and you quickly learn that tax law’s overarching focus is how to reliability collect in a predictable manner.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
LegalLord
Profile Blog Joined April 2013
United Kingdom13775 Posts
April 26 2017 19:09 GMT
#148132
On April 27 2017 01:06 Danglars wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 27 2017 00:44 LegalLord wrote:
On April 27 2017 00:15 Danglars wrote:
Mr. Comey’s plan was to tell Congress that the F.B.I. had received new evidence and was reopening its investigation into Hillary Clinton, the presidential front-runner. The move would violate the policies of an agency that does not reveal its investigations or do anything that may influence an election. But Mr. Comey had declared the case closed, and he believed he was obligated to tell Congress that had changed. [...]

The Justice Department knew a criminal investigation was underway, but officials said they were being technically accurate about the nature of the referral. Some at the F.B.I. suspected that Democratic appointees were playing semantic games to help Mrs. Clinton, who immediately seized on the statement to play down the issue. “It is not a criminal investigation,” she said, incorrectly. “It is a security review.” [...]

At the meeting, everyone agreed that Mr. Comey should not reveal details about the Clinton investigation. But Ms. Lynch told him to be even more circumspect: Do not even call it an investigation, she said, according to three people who attended the meeting. Call it a “matter.” [...]

At the meeting, everyone agreed that Mr. Comey should not reveal details about the Clinton investigation. But Ms. Lynch told him to be even more circumspect: Do not even call it an investigation, she said, according to three people who attended the meeting. Call it a “matter.” [...]

During Russia’s hacking campaign against the United States, intelligence agencies could peer, at times, into Russian networks and see what had been taken. Early last year, F.B.I. agents received a batch of hacked documents, and one caught their attention.

The document, which has been described as both a memo and an email, was written by a Democratic operative who expressed confidence that Ms. Lynch would keep the Clinton investigation from going too far, according to several former officials familiar with the document. [...]

The script had been edited and revised several times, former officials said. Mr. Strzok, Mr. Steinbach, lawyers and others debated every phrase. Speaking so openly about a closed case is rare, and the decision to do so was not unanimous, officials said. But the team ultimately agreed that there was an obligation to inform American voters.

“We didn’t want anyone to say, ‘If I just knew that, I wouldn’t have voted that way,’” Mr. Steinbach said. “You can argue that’s not the F.B.I.’s job, but there was no playbook for this. This is somebody who’s going to be president of the United States.”

Mr. Comey’s criticism — his description of her carelessness — was the most controversial part of the speech. Agents and prosecutors have been reprimanded for injecting their legal conclusions with personal opinions. But those close to Mr. Comey say he has no regrets.

By scolding Mrs. Clinton, Mr. Comey was speaking not only to voters but to his own agents. While they agreed that Mrs. Clinton should not face charges, many viewed her conduct as inexcusable. Mr. Comey’s remarks made clear that the F.B.I. did not approve.

Former agents and others close to Mr. Comey acknowledge that his reproach was also intended to insulate the F.B.I. from Republican criticism that it was too lenient toward a Democrat.

New York Times

It's a long article, so I've only quoted some paragraphs to whet the reader's appetite to read it all in context. The New York Times interviewed more than 30 current and former law enforcement, congressional and other government officials in the making of the report. It reveals the deep clash between Comey and Lynch, a document that complicated future accusations of partisanship, and Comey's internal struggles at the FBI. In my view, his handling or failure to handle the investigation into Clinton's misbehavior while Secretary of State was always a bigger story than Russia. The article also brings into context how Trump's investigation was handled differently, so go read "Comey Tried to Shield the F.B.I. From Politics. Then He Shaped an Election."

"Should you consider what you’re about to do may help elect Donald Trump president?" - FBI agent
"If we ever start considering who might be affected, and in what way, by what we do, we’re done" -James Comey

I'll be honest, I don't like that article. It suffers strongly from an utter lack of focus and goes on far too many tangents that ultimately serve to make its core message unclear. I wish it would focus on only one thing: the letter and the compromised DoJ that made it a necessity in Comey's eyes. Everything else is relevant to the FBI but not to the letter.

Whether or not Lynch was actually a political operative is hard to say for lack of evidence and almost irrelevant given that she is no longer the AG. She certainly appeared that way by being a total shill within the investigation but I guess the proof wasn't really there. But that was basically the heart of the Comey matter and instead of focusing on everything - Russia, Carter Page, Trump being investigated, Clinton emails, so on and so forth - the article really needed to focus more on what was actually relevant to the topic at hand.

The comprehensive viewpoint is entirely necessary to a left-wing publication whose normal readers would immediately fault it if it focused narrowly. "But what about the Trump investigation treatment?" "But what about the Clinton campaign's statements to the contrary?" "But Comey was biased in this manner on that thing?" The NYT knows their audience, so anything that portrays the Obama DoJ in a less-than-flattering light must be chock full of the other stuff that's neutral or better.

It's been the only exposé that brought in additional information. The letter and internal discussions as well as the content of meetings with Lynch is absolutely new. I don't see why you can't accept a fuller telling of Comey's behavior, internal conflict, and motivations that is replete with details. Complex man, complex issues, complex story.

Yes, I think the article added a few nice tidbits. The Lynch participation in the Comey letter matter was the general story as I was aware but this article does go a little further in describing it.

My concern is that by covering too many tangential points it starts to lose the plot. It becomes a convoluted critique of Comey and the FBI and everything they have ever been involved in rather than an article which effectively gets to the bottom of the letter, it just goes on a wild goose chase. And maybe some people want to do that but it's part of what's wrong with the current political climate.
History will sooner or later sweep the European Union away without mercy.
biology]major
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States2253 Posts
April 26 2017 19:12 GMT
#148133
Lol I can't wait for this over valued market to come crumbling down soon when trump doesn't deliver.
Question.?
Danglars
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States12133 Posts
April 26 2017 19:13 GMT
#148134
On April 27 2017 01:48 hunts wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 27 2017 00:15 Danglars wrote:
Mr. Comey’s plan was to tell Congress that the F.B.I. had received new evidence and was reopening its investigation into Hillary Clinton, the presidential front-runner. The move would violate the policies of an agency that does not reveal its investigations or do anything that may influence an election. But Mr. Comey had declared the case closed, and he believed he was obligated to tell Congress that had changed. [...]

The Justice Department knew a criminal investigation was underway, but officials said they were being technically accurate about the nature of the referral. Some at the F.B.I. suspected that Democratic appointees were playing semantic games to help Mrs. Clinton, who immediately seized on the statement to play down the issue. “It is not a criminal investigation,” she said, incorrectly. “It is a security review.” [...]

At the meeting, everyone agreed that Mr. Comey should not reveal details about the Clinton investigation. But Ms. Lynch told him to be even more circumspect: Do not even call it an investigation, she said, according to three people who attended the meeting. Call it a “matter.” [...]

At the meeting, everyone agreed that Mr. Comey should not reveal details about the Clinton investigation. But Ms. Lynch told him to be even more circumspect: Do not even call it an investigation, she said, according to three people who attended the meeting. Call it a “matter.” [...]

During Russia’s hacking campaign against the United States, intelligence agencies could peer, at times, into Russian networks and see what had been taken. Early last year, F.B.I. agents received a batch of hacked documents, and one caught their attention.

The document, which has been described as both a memo and an email, was written by a Democratic operative who expressed confidence that Ms. Lynch would keep the Clinton investigation from going too far, according to several former officials familiar with the document. [...]

The script had been edited and revised several times, former officials said. Mr. Strzok, Mr. Steinbach, lawyers and others debated every phrase. Speaking so openly about a closed case is rare, and the decision to do so was not unanimous, officials said. But the team ultimately agreed that there was an obligation to inform American voters.

“We didn’t want anyone to say, ‘If I just knew that, I wouldn’t have voted that way,’” Mr. Steinbach said. “You can argue that’s not the F.B.I.’s job, but there was no playbook for this. This is somebody who’s going to be president of the United States.”

Mr. Comey’s criticism — his description of her carelessness — was the most controversial part of the speech. Agents and prosecutors have been reprimanded for injecting their legal conclusions with personal opinions. But those close to Mr. Comey say he has no regrets.

By scolding Mrs. Clinton, Mr. Comey was speaking not only to voters but to his own agents. While they agreed that Mrs. Clinton should not face charges, many viewed her conduct as inexcusable. Mr. Comey’s remarks made clear that the F.B.I. did not approve.

Former agents and others close to Mr. Comey acknowledge that his reproach was also intended to insulate the F.B.I. from Republican criticism that it was too lenient toward a Democrat.

New York Times

It's a long article, so I've only quoted some paragraphs to whet the reader's appetite to read it all in context. The New York Times interviewed more than 30 current and former law enforcement, congressional and other government officials in the making of the report. It reveals the deep clash between Comey and Lynch, a document that complicated future accusations of partisanship, and Comey's internal struggles at the FBI. In my view, his handling or failure to handle the investigation into Clinton's misbehavior while Secretary of State was always a bigger story than Russia. The article also brings into context how Trump's investigation was handled differently, so go read "Comey Tried to Shield the F.B.I. From Politics. Then He Shaped an Election."

"Should you consider what you’re about to do may help elect Donald Trump president?" - FBI agent
"If we ever start considering who might be affected, and in what way, by what we do, we’re done" -James Comey


Let's hope they're just as adamant about investigating trump and his cronies for all of their possible illegal activities and impropriety and cooperation with foreign hackers, right? You're totally on board for the FBI to relentlessly investigate everything trump and those around him may have done wrong and inform the public of every little thing that comes up so that the public never forgets about all of it?

Easy on the trolling, sir. Did you read any of it before typing "inform the public of every little thing that comes up." Like, I don't know, ethical concerns about reopening an investigation that you had told Congress was completed? I don't know if you posted before reading anything, so I'll reserve comment on this outburst. Afterwards, tell me why "so that the public never forgets about all of it" is your contention after five minutes reading a report that details the complete opposite motivation.
Great armies come from happy zealots, and happy zealots come from California!
TL+ Member
LegalLord
Profile Blog Joined April 2013
United Kingdom13775 Posts
April 26 2017 19:15 GMT
#148135
On April 27 2017 04:12 biology]major wrote:
Lol I can't wait for this over valued market to come crumbling down soon when trump doesn't deliver.

I too am excited for irrational financial exuberance to come crashing down and to be able to gloat about it.

At this point I imagine Trump will probably be remembered not unlike Bush for his ultimate failure to be anything but an utter failure.
History will sooner or later sweep the European Union away without mercy.
ShoCkeyy
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
7815 Posts
April 26 2017 19:46 GMT
#148136
Should I buy another house now or later?... I've been debating this for the past few months since down payments are ridiculously low at the moment. That's the real question...
Life?
On_Slaught
Profile Joined August 2008
United States12190 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-04-26 19:53:28
April 26 2017 19:51 GMT
#148137
Yay! Trickle down poverty.. er economics, is back! All hail the incoming 5% jump in national economic growth (lol) and massive wealth increase! Well, unless you're poor, middle class, or upper middle class.

The only question is do we watch the Republicans pass this and wait for it to inevitably fail and cause the suffering of millions or will the infighting cause another abortion mid legislative process.
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States23266 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-04-26 20:17:36
April 26 2017 20:04 GMT
#148138
On April 27 2017 04:51 On_Slaught wrote:
Yay! Trickle down poverty.. er economics, is back! All hail the incoming 5% jump in national economic growth (lol) and massive wealth increase! Well, unless you're poor, middle class, or upper middle class.

The only question is do we watch the Republicans pass this and wait for it to inevitably fail and cause the suffering of millions or will the infighting cause another abortion mid legislative process.


Problem is that a lot of people had a lot riding on getting this repatriation thing going, not sure that part can be stopped, unless Republicans overreach on what they can attach to it (which seems to be the route they are currently going).

Like Republicans could get a 25% corporate tax (basically the effective rate now), a reduction of the estate tax, and cut the AMT significantly and Democrats would only argue over the rate on the repatriated money.

The repatriation also helps make it look less expensive, by goosing the economy with a couple trillion dollars, but as we know from the last one it won't do basically any of the good things politicians suggest it will.
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
On_Slaught
Profile Joined August 2008
United States12190 Posts
April 26 2017 20:21 GMT
#148139
Repatriated money should go into infrastructure imo. At this rate, that's going straight into the deficit tho.
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States23266 Posts
April 26 2017 20:26 GMT
#148140
On April 27 2017 05:21 On_Slaught wrote:
Repatriated money should go into infrastructure imo. At this rate, that's going straight into the deficit tho.


If Trump actually wanted a win there would be a no brainer repatriation into infrastructure bill (which is what Democrats were planning if Hillary won). Just favored toward Republican states. Democrats couldn't vote against it, and Republicans could call it a win and take credit for every new piece of infrastructure whether it's actually related to the bill or not.

Trump's sheer incompetence in political horse trading is the only thing standing in the way of him not moving a Republican agenda forward.
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
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