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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
Logo
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States7542 Posts
April 03 2017 22:10 GMT
#145021
On April 04 2017 06:54 Plansix wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 04 2017 06:46 Logo wrote:
On April 04 2017 06:33 Mysticesper wrote:
On April 04 2017 06:27 Plansix wrote:
Term limits were things that even the founding fathers couldn’t settle on. The continental congress was wildly ineffective due to restrictive term limits on its members, which impacted the final draft of the constitution. Term limited politicians bring their own host of problems a political system. It isn’t a silver bullet. But a great crowd pleaser.


Term limits are a fickle thing.

I totally support it in order to flush out the system, but then the fear is that we have a bunch of novices who don't know how anything works, and that turnover would be pretty immense.


Yeah I feel all over the place on term limits. On the one hand you have a few senators that really come into their own over many terms and go on to do great things for their country.

On the other you give congress a nice boost by having more people in a position where fund raising is no longer beneficial to them (though it's always beneficial to their party).

Overall it makes me a bit worried though; I'm worried in a lot of cases it'd be use to replace red moderates with more extreme party members and accelerate polarization of the country.

That is one of the problems created by term limits. The other problem is that life isn't governed by term limits. Some plans take decades to resolve, like infrastructure or education reform. You also lost long term civil servants who can provide guidance to new member. Many of the problem in the senate can be linked back to long term party leaders passing away. Ted Kennedy, as disliked by the right as he was, had an amazing relationship with republican senators.

And when most people talk about term limits, it in reference to congress members from other states. Term limits won't change the voters that elected the congress members we don't like.


Yeah that's the other thing, it often feels more like a band-aid fix to the actual problem of incumbency, which seems to have a lot more to do with campaign fundraising, gerrymandering, and primary apathy than it does congressional term limits.
Logo
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
April 03 2017 22:11 GMT
#145022
Full article:

+ Show Spoiler +
The United Arab Emirates arranged a secret meeting in January between Blackwater founder Erik Prince and a Russian close to President Vladi­mir Putin as part of an apparent effort to establish a back-channel line of communication between Moscow and President-elect Donald Trump, according to U.S., European and Arab officials.

The meeting took place around Jan. 11 — nine days before Trump’s inauguration — in the Seychelles islands in the Indian Ocean, officials said. Though the full agenda remains unclear, the UAE agreed to broker the meeting in part to explore whether Russia could be persuaded to curtail its relationship with Iran, including in Syria, a Trump administration objective that would be likely to require major concessions to Moscow on U.S. sanctions.

Though Prince had no formal role with the Trump campaign or transition team, he presented himself as an unofficial envoy for Trump to high-ranking Emiratis involved in setting up his meeting with the Putin confidant, according to the officials, who did not identify the Russian.

Prince was an avid supporter of Trump. After the Republican convention, he contributed $250,000 to Trump’s campaign, the national party and a pro-Trump super PAC led by GOP mega-donor Rebekah Mercer, records show. He has ties to people in Trump’s circle, including Stephen K. Bannon, now serving as the president’s chief strategist and senior counselor. Prince’s sister Betsy DeVos serves as education secretary in the Trump administration. And Prince was seen in the Trump transition offices in New York in December.

U.S. officials said the FBI has been scrutinizing the Seychelles meeting as part of a broader probe of Russian interference in the 2016 U.S. election and alleged contacts between associates of Putin and Trump. The FBI declined to comment.

The Seychelles encounter, which one official said spanned two days, adds to an expanding web of connections between Russia and Americans with ties to Trump — contacts that the White House has been reluctant to acknowledge or explain until they have been exposed by news organizations.

“We are not aware of any meetings and Erik Prince had no role in the transition,” said Sean Spicer, the White House press secretary.

A Prince spokesman said in a statement: “Erik had no role on the transition team. This is a complete fabrication. The meeting had nothing to do with President Trump. Why is the so-called under-resourced intelligence community messing around with surveillance of American citizens when they should be hunting terrorists?”

Prince is best known as the founder of Blackwater, a security firm that became a symbol of U.S. abuses in Iraq after a series of incidents including one in 2007 in which the company’s guards were accused — and later criminally convicted — of killing civilians in a crowded Iraqi square. Prince sold the firm, which was subsequently rebranded, but has continued building a private paramilitary empire with contracts across the Middle East and Asia. He now heads a Hong Kong-based company known as the Frontier Services Group.

Prince would probably have been seen as too controversial to serve in any official capacity in the Trump transition or administration. But his ties to Trump advisers, experience with clandestine work and relationship with the royal leaders of the Emirates — where he moved in 2010 amid mounting legal problems for his American business — would have positioned him as an ideal go-between.

The Seychelles meeting came after separate private discussions in New York involving high-ranking representatives of Trump with both Moscow and the Emirates.

The White House has acknowledged that Michael T. Flynn, Trump’s original national security adviser, and Trump adviser and son-in-law Jared Kushner met with the Russian ambassador to the United States, Sergey Kislyak, in late November or early December in New York.

Flynn and Kushner were joined by Bannon for a separate meeting with the crown prince of Abu Dhabi, Sheikh Mohamed bin Zayed al-Nahyan, who made an undisclosed visit to New York later in December, according to the U.S., European and Arab officials who spoke on the condition of anonymity to discuss sensitive matters.

In an unusual breach of protocol, the UAE did not notify the Obama administration in advance of the visit, though officials found out because Zayed’s name appeared on a flight manifest.

Officials said Zayed and his brother, the UAE’s national security adviser, coordinated the Seychelles meeting with Russian government officials with the goal of establishing an unofficial back channel between Trump and Putin.

Officials said Zayed wanted to be helpful to both leaders who had talked about working more closely together, a policy objective long advocated by the crown prince. The UAE, which sees Iran as one of its main enemies, also shared the Trump team’s interest in finding ways to drive a wedge between Moscow and Tehran.

Zayed met twice with Putin in 2016, according to Western officials, and urged the Russian leader to work more closely with the Emirates and Saudi Arabia — an effort to isolate Iran.

At the time of the Seychelles meeting and for weeks afterward, the UAE believed that Prince had the blessing of the new administration to act as its unofficial representative. The Russian participant was a person whom Zayed knew was close to Putin from his interactions with both men, the officials said.

When the Seychelles meeting took place, official contacts between members of the incoming Trump administration and the Russian government were under intense scrutiny, both from federal investigators and the press.

Less than a week before the Seychelles meeting, U.S. intelligence agencies released a report accusing Russia of intervening clandestinely during the 2016 election to help Trump win the White House.

The FBI was already investigating communications between Flynn and Kislyak. The Washington Post’s David Ignatius first disclosed those communications on Jan. 12, around the time of the Seychelles meeting. Flynn was subsequently fired by Trump for misleading Vice President Pence and others about his discussions with Kislyak.

Yousef Al Otaiba, the UAE’s ambassador in Washington, declined to comment.

Government officials in the Seychelles said they were not aware of any meetings between Trump and Putin associates in the country around Jan. 11. But they said luxury resorts on the island are ideal for clandestine gatherings like the one described by the U.S., European and Arab officials.

“I wouldn’t be surprised at all,” said Barry Faure, the Seychelles secretary of state for foreign affairs. “The Seychelles is the kind of place where you can have a good time away from the eyes of the media. That’s even printed in our tourism marketing. But I guess this time you smelled something.”

Trump has dismissed the investigations of Russia’s role in the election as “fake news” and a “witch hunt.”

The level of discretion surrounding the Seychelles meeting seems extraordinary given the frequency with which senior Trump advisers, including Flynn and Kushner, had interacted with Russian officials in the United States, including at the high-profile Trump Tower in New York.

Steven Simon, a National Security Council senior director for the Middle East and North Africa in the Obama White House, said: “The idea of using business cutouts, or individuals perceived to be close to political leaders, as a tool of diplomacy is as old as the hills. These unofficial channels are desirable precisely because they are deniable; ideas can be tested without the risk of failure.”

Current and former U.S. officials said that while Prince refrained from playing a direct role in the Trump transition, his name surfaced so frequently in internal discussions that he seemed to function as an outside adviser whose opinions were valued on a range of issues, including plans for overhauling the U.S. intelligence community.

He appears to have particularly close ties to Bannon, appearing multiple times as a guest on Bannon’s satellite radio program over the past year as well as in articles on the Breitbart Web site that Bannon ran before joining the Trump campaign.

In a July interview with Bannon, Prince said those seeking forceful U.S. leadership should “wait till January and hope Mr. Trump is elected.” And he lashed out at President Barack Obama, saying that because of his policies “the terrorists, the fascists, are winning.”

Days before the November election, Prince appeared on Bannon’s program again, saying that he had “well-placed sources” in the New York City Police Department telling him they were preparing to make arrests in the investigation of former congressman Anthony Weiner (D-N.Y.) over allegations he exchanged sexually explicit texts with a minor. Flynn tweeted a link to the Breitbart report on the claim. No arrests occurred.

Prince went on to make unfounded assertions that damaging material recovered from Weiner’s computers would implicate Hillary Clinton and her close adviser, Huma Abedin, who was married to Weiner. He also called Abedin an “agent of influence very sympathetic to the Muslim Brotherhood.”

Prince and his family were major GOP donors in 2016. The Center for Responsive Politics reported that the family gave more than $10 million to GOP candidates and super PACs, including about $2.7 million from his sister, DeVos, and her husband.

Prince’s father, Edgar Prince, built his fortune through an auto-parts company. Betsy married Richard DeVos Jr., heir to the Amway fortune.

Erik Prince has had lucrative contracts with the UAE government, which at one point paid his firm a reported $529 million to help bring in foreign fighters to help assemble an internal paramilitary force capable of carrying out secret operations and protecting Emirati installations from terrorist attacks.

The Trump administration and the UAE appear to share a similar preoccupation with Iran. Current and former officials said that Trump advisers were focused throughout the transition period on exploring ways to get Moscow to break ranks with Tehran.

“Separating Russia from Iran was a common theme,” said a former intelligence official in the Obama administration who met with Trump transition officials. “It didn’t seem very well thought out. It seemed a little premature. They clearly had a very specific policy position, which I found odd given that they hadn’t even taken the reins and explored with experts in the U.S. government the pros and cons of that approach.”

Michael McFaul, former U.S. ambassador to Russia, said he also had discussions with people close to the Trump administration about the prospects of drawing Russia away from Iran. “When I would hear this, I would think, ‘Yeah that’s great for you guys, but why would Putin ever do that?’ ” McFaul said. “There is no interest in Russia ever doing that. They have a long relationship with Iran. They’re allied with Iran in fighting in Syria. They sell weapons to Iran. Iran is an important strategic partner for Russia in the Middle East.”

Following the New York meeting between the Emiratis and Trump aides, Zayed was approached by Prince, who said he was authorized to act as an unofficial surrogate for the president-elect, according to the officials. He wanted Zayed to set up a meeting with a Putin associate. Zayed agreed and proposed the Seychelles as the meeting place because of the privacy it would afford both sides. “He wanted to be helpful,” one official said of Zayed.

Wealthy Russians and Emirati royalty have a particularly large footprint on the islands. Signs advertising deep-sea fishing trips are posted in Cyrillic. Russian billionaire Mikhail Prokhorov owns North Island, where Prince William and Catherine, Duchess of Cambridge, went on their honeymoon in 2011. Sheikh Khalifa bin Zayed al-Nahyan, president of the UAE, built a hilltop palace for himself with views across the chain of islands.

The Emiratis have given hundreds of millions of dollars to the Seychelles in recent years for causes including public health and affordable housing. But when the Emirati royal family visits, they are rarely seen.

“The jeep comes to their private jet on the tarmac and they disappear,” said one Seychellois official who spoke on the condition of anonymity because he did not want to be seen as criticizing the Emiratis.

Zayed, the crown prince, owns a share of the Seychelles’ Four Seasons, a collection of private villas scattered on a lush hillside on the main island’s southern shore, overlooking the Indian Ocean, according to officials in the Seychelles. The hotel is tucked away on a private beach, far from the nearest public road.

Current and former U.S. officials who have worked closely with Zayed, who is often referred to as MBZ, say it would be out of character for him to arrange the Jan. 11 meeting without getting a green light in advance from top aides to Trump and Putin, if not the leaders themselves. “MBZ is very cautious,” said an American businessman who knows Zayed and spoke on the condition of anonymity because of the sensitivity of the subject. “There had to be a nod.”

The Seychelles meeting was deemed productive by the UAE and Russia but the idea of arranging additional meetings between Prince and Putin’s associates was dropped, officials said. Even unofficial contacts between Trump and Putin associates had become too politically risky, officials said.


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
Doodsmack
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States7224 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-04-03 23:14:41
April 03 2017 23:14 GMT
#145023
Sounds like Bannon probably used that contact to try to get a back channel for the Iran idea. I could see an argument that associating with Erik Prince at such a high level is shady. But it shows you that Trump's motley crew has friends in high places. Personally I'm most concerned about Manafort's contacts.
Danglars
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States12133 Posts
April 04 2017 00:44 GMT
#145024
On April 04 2017 04:06 xDaunt wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 04 2017 01:48 Danglars wrote:
Bloomberg now reporting that Susan Rice requested the unmasking of US citizens involved in Trump transition and picked up in FISA-approved surveillance on foreign persons. In the spirit of sensational Russia headlines, we now place the Obama administration spying on and then leaking about the incoming administration. They unmasked people who weren't targets, the leaks themselves were criminal.

Sensationalism aside, I await further reports confirming Nunes's instincts. I really thought unmasking would be at greater distance from Obama, then passed along. I'll have to buy popcorn on the way home from work.

First thing's first: Nunes has been vindicated.

The question that I really want to ask is why did Rice unmask the persons involved in these communications? What was the basis for it? A legitimate national security issue or partisan politics? I suspect that the communications will speak for themselves on this point. And if these are the materials that Schiff reviewed when he has said that he has seen no real evidence linking Trump to the Russians, then I suspect that Rice is going to have some explaining to do.

Abso-fucking-lutely Nunes is vindicated. Now the Hail Mary pass is Rice et al proving that one of the Trump team was a legitimate national security concern. And this wasn't just watergate style spying from a position of power. She'll be before a house panel/the subject of a congressional investigation I bet.
Great armies come from happy zealots, and happy zealots come from California!
TL+ Member
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
April 04 2017 00:47 GMT
#145025
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
zlefin
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
United States7689 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-04-04 00:51:57
April 04 2017 00:49 GMT
#145026
this doens't really vindicate nunes in general, it might vindicate him of certain specific things/accusations, but not for his actions in general in regards to the probe, which remain very poor and improper.
and of course the watergate comparison is inapropos. (obviously hail mary is not an accurate word choice either, but it's acceptable hyperbole, if you like to misrepresent reality, which is fairly routine in politics, so whatevs)
Great read: http://shorensteincenter.org/news-coverage-2016-general-election/ great book on democracy: http://press.princeton.edu/titles/10671.html zlefin is grumpier due to long term illness. Ignoring some users.
Doodsmack
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States7224 Posts
April 04 2017 00:59 GMT
#145027
Rice certainly had to present a national security argument to the intel agencies in order to get the names. And Nunes' entire press stunt was designed to bolster one side of the story and bolster Trump's wiretapping tweet - and from that, he cannot be vindicated. Nunes couldn't get the documents from intelligence agencies (even though he learned about them in January) because they refused, so he got his former lawyer and a 30 year old Flynn goon to show him, and then went to the President and the press.



xDaunt
Profile Joined March 2010
United States17988 Posts
April 04 2017 01:06 GMT
#145028
Cernovich, the guy who broke the Susan Rice story, says that major media like NYT and Bloomberg were sitting on it, and that people working for those outlets leaked the info to him. Color me shocked. /s

It still begs the question of who is leaking all of this stuff to the press.
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
April 04 2017 01:10 GMT
#145029
I am sure there are a bunch of Republicans who would love to know that. Not enough to investigate or try force reporters to give up their sources GWB style. That would require some spine and would make it so they couldn't cover their ass if this all turns out to be super bad for them.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
pmh
Profile Joined March 2016
1399 Posts
April 04 2017 01:12 GMT
#145030
https://www.yahoo.com/news/bernie-sanders-says-trump-voters-164721855.html

Instead of talking about trump the democratic elite should listen more to this man. Will sanders be able to reform the democratic party from a party for the liberal elite into a party for the working class main street people?
I don't know,he faces an uphill battle that is for sure. But this change is very much needed.
zlefin
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
United States7689 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-04-04 01:16:58
April 04 2017 01:15 GMT
#145031
On April 04 2017 10:12 pmh wrote:
https://www.yahoo.com/news/bernie-sanders-says-trump-voters-164721855.html

Instead of talking about trump the democratic elite should listen more to this man. Will sanders be able to reform the democratic party from a party for the liberal elite into a party for the working class main street people?
I don't know,he faces an uphill battle that is for sure. But this change is very much needed.

he's unlikely to reform a party he's not a member of.
also, your statemenet is rather inaccurate, as the democratic party was a party for the working class people for quite awhile, but mostly for the unionized ones; which with declining union membership meant they lost much of their working class base.
and it's still a party which does far more for the working class than the republicans do, so it pretty much still is the party for the working class.

also, a fair portion of trump supporters from early on are in fact deplorable people, though the number is probably fairly small. and people often forget the other half of the quote. oy, so many problems are ultimately caused by people being morons.

and all parties are parties for the elite, that's why they're elites. /cynical
Great read: http://shorensteincenter.org/news-coverage-2016-general-election/ great book on democracy: http://press.princeton.edu/titles/10671.html zlefin is grumpier due to long term illness. Ignoring some users.
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
April 04 2017 01:21 GMT
#145032
Reforming an entire political party is a lot harder than people make it out to be. We are a huge country and getting democrats from Vermont, NH and Massachusetts to get along is hard as hell. And that isn't even West Virginia or a state in Middle American.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
Jormundr
Profile Joined July 2011
United States1678 Posts
April 04 2017 01:27 GMT
#145033
On April 04 2017 10:12 pmh wrote:
https://www.yahoo.com/news/bernie-sanders-says-trump-voters-164721855.html

Instead of talking about trump the democratic elite should listen more to this man. Will sanders be able to reform the democratic party from a party for the liberal elite into a party for the working class main street people?
I don't know,he faces an uphill battle that is for sure. But this change is very much needed.

You usually put the fire out first before you start rebuilding.
Capitalism is beneficial for people who work harder than other people. Under capitalism the only way to make more money is to work harder then your competitors whether they be other companies or workers. ~ Vegetarian
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States23602 Posts
April 04 2017 01:41 GMT
#145034
On April 04 2017 10:15 zlefin wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 04 2017 10:12 pmh wrote:
https://www.yahoo.com/news/bernie-sanders-says-trump-voters-164721855.html

Instead of talking about trump the democratic elite should listen more to this man. Will sanders be able to reform the democratic party from a party for the liberal elite into a party for the working class main street people?
I don't know,he faces an uphill battle that is for sure. But this change is very much needed.

he's unlikely to reform a party he's not a member of.
also, your statemenet is rather inaccurate, as the democratic party was a party for the working class people for quite awhile, but mostly for the unionized ones; which with declining union membership meant they lost much of their working class base.
and it's still a party which does far more for the working class than the republicans do, so it pretty much still is the party for the working class.

also, a fair portion of trump supporters from early on are in fact deplorable people, though the number is probably fairly small. and people often forget the other half of the quote. oy, so many problems are ultimately caused by people being morons.

and all parties are parties for the elite, that's why they're elites. /cynical


He's not a "member" in the technical sense, but he's doing everything he can to save the Democratic party (despite objections from many of his supporters). He is their chair of outreach.

He's going places and talking to people, whether democrats are smart enough to listen to him or they want to continue to marginalize him out of spite, is up to them.

So far looks like they have their heads firmly secured in their rectums and are doing everything they can to do the absolute minimum to keep the party from total collapse.
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
April 04 2017 01:44 GMT
#145035
Exactly where was Pelosi, and Schumer the so called Party Heads since the elections? Nowhere besides closed door meetings and friendly news chats. Sanders has been in Southern States picketing for Union Rights, town halls in Coal Country and everywhere else.
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
zlefin
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
United States7689 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-04-04 01:48:37
April 04 2017 01:46 GMT
#145036
On April 04 2017 10:41 GreenHorizons wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 04 2017 10:15 zlefin wrote:
On April 04 2017 10:12 pmh wrote:
https://www.yahoo.com/news/bernie-sanders-says-trump-voters-164721855.html

Instead of talking about trump the democratic elite should listen more to this man. Will sanders be able to reform the democratic party from a party for the liberal elite into a party for the working class main street people?
I don't know,he faces an uphill battle that is for sure. But this change is very much needed.

he's unlikely to reform a party he's not a member of.
also, your statemenet is rather inaccurate, as the democratic party was a party for the working class people for quite awhile, but mostly for the unionized ones; which with declining union membership meant they lost much of their working class base.
and it's still a party which does far more for the working class than the republicans do, so it pretty much still is the party for the working class.

also, a fair portion of trump supporters from early on are in fact deplorable people, though the number is probably fairly small. and people often forget the other half of the quote. oy, so many problems are ultimately caused by people being morons.

and all parties are parties for the elite, that's why they're elites. /cynical


He's not a "member" in the technical sense, but he's doing everything he can to save the Democratic party (despite objections from many of his supporters). He is their chair of outreach.

He's going places and talking to people, whether democrats are smart enough to listen to him or they want to continue to marginalize him out of spite, is up to them.

So far looks like they have their heads firmly secured in their rectums and are doing everything they can to do the absolute minimum to keep the party from total collapse.

he marginalizes himself as part of his rhetoric. it's part of what he uses for his outsider cred.
and we all know how strong your bias is on the topic, so your assessments accuracy is low.
and technical and legal sense do matter a fair bit.

also, he's not chair of outreach for the Democrats, but for the Senate Democrats, a significant distinction.
Great read: http://shorensteincenter.org/news-coverage-2016-general-election/ great book on democracy: http://press.princeton.edu/titles/10671.html zlefin is grumpier due to long term illness. Ignoring some users.
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
April 04 2017 01:51 GMT
#145037
Schumer and Pelosi have both been out there doing work. Just not on camera, because they don't control who points the camera at time. All Bernie has to do to get headlines is say "Clinton" out loud and it will rise to the top.

What the fuck is Pelosi going to do in Southern states? Or Schumer in coal country? That is like sending Mitch McConnell to Massachusetts to try and convince us that Republicans are not that bad.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
LegalLord
Profile Blog Joined April 2013
United States13779 Posts
April 04 2017 01:52 GMT
#145038
Sanders doesn't schmooze with the right donors and attend fundraising dinners for the Democrats. Of course he isn't a party member.
History will sooner or later sweep the European Union away without mercy.
Karis Vas Ryaar
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
United States4396 Posts
April 04 2017 01:53 GMT
#145039
Plenty of Dems are doing a lot. Franken's been doing a ton. Casey's working with Bernie on drugs and also did the miner protection act. They're just focusing on local issues to their states.
"I'm not agreeing with a lot of Virus's decisions but they are working" Tasteless. Ipl4 Losers Bracket Virus 2-1 Maru
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
April 04 2017 01:56 GMT
#145040
It is almost like they are sending people to areas where they can make the most headway. Rather than them all showing up in one place saying "Look, I'm trying too! Just like Bernie, which is why I am here with him! This is a pure photo op!"
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
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