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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. |
On February 22 2017 01:43 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2017 01:40 zlefin wrote:
kwark -> how far back are you going for it to qualify as "recent history"?
I'm just pondering the qualifications of the last while's worth of presidents, and wondering whether I might disagree with that detail or not, so wanted to know how far back is in the eligible pool for contesting. Last couple of decades, albeit given eight year terms that doesn't actually get you very many to choose from. She's nearly 70 and has spent her entire adult life working for the American people, including direct experience within the White House and as a top level cabinet member.
certainly there's some room for varying interpretations of cv quality.
reviewing cv, i'd say gore was a bit more qualified.
mccain is at a similar level to hillary.
kerry seems similar to mccain.
hmm, it feels like the people with a better cv have been losing elections for the past while as I look over this list. probably a perceptual error or a random artifact.
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I've never seen anyone have to praise themselves in order to praise someone else etc. It's beyond bizarre.
President Donald Trump pledged on Tuesday to fight "bigotry, intolerance and hatred" and thanked states where he "won by double, double, double digits" during an impromptu speech at the Smithsonian National Museum of African-American History and Culture. He addressed for the first time "horrible" anti-Semitic threats made against Jewish community centers.
Trump's denouncement was his strongest on the subject to date. It followed a new wave of bomb threats against Jewish community centers nationwide and the vandalism of dozens of tombstones in a Jewish cemetery in Missouri.
President Donald Trump pledged on Tuesday to fight "bigotry, intolerance and hatred" and thanked states where he "won by double, double, double digits" during an impromptu speech at the Smithsonian National Museum of African-American History and Culture. He addressed for the first time "horrible" anti-Semitic threats made against Jewish community centers.
Trump's denouncement was his strongest on the subject to date. It followed a new wave of bomb threats against Jewish community centers nationwide and the vandalism of dozens of tombstones in a Jewish cemetery in Missouri.
“We look to our political leaders at all levels to speak out against such threats directed against Jewish institutions," ADL director Jonathan Greenblatt said in a statement.
In his speech on Tuesday, Trump went on to thank Housing and Urban Development nominee Ben Carson. He said it was "special" to see the museum's exhibit dedicated to Carson and his family.
"Hopefully next week he'll get his approval, about three, four weeks late," Trump said. "But the Democrats, they'll come along, I have no doubt they'll come along."
Trump also thanked Sen. Tim Scott (R-SC) for joining him at the museum.
"A friend of mine, a great, great senator from South Carolina. I like the state of South Carolina," he said. "I like all those states where I won by double, double, double digits."
The President pledged to "bring this country together."
"We have a divided country, it's been divided for many, many years, but we're going to bring it together," he said.
He wrapped up his speech by saying that the museum was built with "tremendous love and passion," not to mention "lots of money."
"I just have to say that what they've done here is something that can probably not be duplicated. It was done with love and lots of money." Trump said. "Lots of money. We can't avoid that."
Source
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On February 21 2017 23:09 LegalLord wrote:
We can't afford to nominate a socialist. We have to win this election no matter the cost. And to that end, it would be irresponsible to choose anyone but the most experienced, electable candidate we could possibly have. Never mind anything else, we have to win, and Trump is SO BAD.
Out of curiosity: you spend a hell of a lot of time mocking this logic. Which part do you actually disagree with? Evidence at this point would suggest that Trump is, in fact, so bad. The thought at the time was she was a more stable, predictable candidate that was less likely to lose on some weird fluke. We have information now that we couldn't possibly have had then (that she did eventually lose), but even now we don't know Bernie would have done better. The conventional wisdom at the time was that the word "socialist" has such horrible connotations in American politics that you could air 30 second spots of Bernie saying "I'm a democratic socialist" on repeat for the entire cycle and he'd be sunk.
Your mockery of the term "electable" aside, what exactly makes that argument so dumb?
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On February 22 2017 02:07 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:I've never seen anyone have to praise themselves in order to praise someone else etc. It's beyond bizarre. Show nested quote +President Donald Trump pledged on Tuesday to fight "bigotry, intolerance and hatred" and thanked states where he "won by double, double, double digits" during an impromptu speech at the Smithsonian National Museum of African-American History and Culture. He addressed for the first time "horrible" anti-Semitic threats made against Jewish community centers.
Trump's denouncement was his strongest on the subject to date. It followed a new wave of bomb threats against Jewish community centers nationwide and the vandalism of dozens of tombstones in a Jewish cemetery in Missouri.
President Donald Trump pledged on Tuesday to fight "bigotry, intolerance and hatred" and thanked states where he "won by double, double, double digits" during an impromptu speech at the Smithsonian National Museum of African-American History and Culture. He addressed for the first time "horrible" anti-Semitic threats made against Jewish community centers.
Trump's denouncement was his strongest on the subject to date. It followed a new wave of bomb threats against Jewish community centers nationwide and the vandalism of dozens of tombstones in a Jewish cemetery in Missouri.
“We look to our political leaders at all levels to speak out against such threats directed against Jewish institutions," ADL director Jonathan Greenblatt said in a statement.
In his speech on Tuesday, Trump went on to thank Housing and Urban Development nominee Ben Carson. He said it was "special" to see the museum's exhibit dedicated to Carson and his family.
"Hopefully next week he'll get his approval, about three, four weeks late," Trump said. "But the Democrats, they'll come along, I have no doubt they'll come along."
Trump also thanked Sen. Tim Scott (R-SC) for joining him at the museum.
"A friend of mine, a great, great senator from South Carolina. I like the state of South Carolina," he said. "I like all those states where I won by double, double, double digits."
The President pledged to "bring this country together."
"We have a divided country, it's been divided for many, many years, but we're going to bring it together," he said.
He wrapped up his speech by saying that the museum was built with "tremendous love and passion," not to mention "lots of money."
"I just have to say that what they've done here is something that can probably not be duplicated. It was done with love and lots of money." Trump said. "Lots of money. We can't avoid that." Source
He's such an idiot.
The first two times he was asked by reporters about the rising anti-Semitic trends, he kept saying that he was the least anti-Semitic, least racist person you've ever met.
When reporters finally got him to understand they weren't calling him anti-Semitic, he said that all "his people" were good people, and it's the Left doing shitty things while pretending to support him to undermine his base.
Fucking hell.
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On February 22 2017 02:12 Blisse wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2017 02:07 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:I've never seen anyone have to praise themselves in order to praise someone else etc. It's beyond bizarre. President Donald Trump pledged on Tuesday to fight "bigotry, intolerance and hatred" and thanked states where he "won by double, double, double digits" during an impromptu speech at the Smithsonian National Museum of African-American History and Culture. He addressed for the first time "horrible" anti-Semitic threats made against Jewish community centers.
Trump's denouncement was his strongest on the subject to date. It followed a new wave of bomb threats against Jewish community centers nationwide and the vandalism of dozens of tombstones in a Jewish cemetery in Missouri.
President Donald Trump pledged on Tuesday to fight "bigotry, intolerance and hatred" and thanked states where he "won by double, double, double digits" during an impromptu speech at the Smithsonian National Museum of African-American History and Culture. He addressed for the first time "horrible" anti-Semitic threats made against Jewish community centers.
Trump's denouncement was his strongest on the subject to date. It followed a new wave of bomb threats against Jewish community centers nationwide and the vandalism of dozens of tombstones in a Jewish cemetery in Missouri.
“We look to our political leaders at all levels to speak out against such threats directed against Jewish institutions," ADL director Jonathan Greenblatt said in a statement.
In his speech on Tuesday, Trump went on to thank Housing and Urban Development nominee Ben Carson. He said it was "special" to see the museum's exhibit dedicated to Carson and his family.
"Hopefully next week he'll get his approval, about three, four weeks late," Trump said. "But the Democrats, they'll come along, I have no doubt they'll come along."
Trump also thanked Sen. Tim Scott (R-SC) for joining him at the museum.
"A friend of mine, a great, great senator from South Carolina. I like the state of South Carolina," he said. "I like all those states where I won by double, double, double digits."
The President pledged to "bring this country together."
"We have a divided country, it's been divided for many, many years, but we're going to bring it together," he said.
He wrapped up his speech by saying that the museum was built with "tremendous love and passion," not to mention "lots of money."
"I just have to say that what they've done here is something that can probably not be duplicated. It was done with love and lots of money." Trump said. "Lots of money. We can't avoid that." Source He's such an idiot. The first two times he was asked by reporters about the rising anti-Semitic trends, he kept saying that he was the least anti-Semitic, least racist person you've ever met. When reporters finally got him to understand they weren't calling him anti-Semitic, he said that all "his people" were good people, and it's the Left doing shitty things while pretending to support him to undermine his base. Fucking hell.
He's so combative and defensive that he can't even realize when people are just asking him a question.
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Why is Trump surrounded by so many shadesters?
President Donald Trump's personal lawyer, Michael Cohen, was at the center of a bombshell New York Times report published Sunday that said he hand-delivered a "peace" plan for Russia and Ukraine to former National Security Adviser Michael Flynn before Flynn was asked to resign.
The plan — which The Times said was pushed by Cohen, businessman Felix Sater, and Ukrainian lawmaker Andrii Artemenko — involved lifting sanctions on Russia in return for Moscow withdrawing its support for pro-Russia separatists in eastern Ukraine, according to the report. It would also allow Russia to maintain control over Crimea, which it annexed in 2014.
Hours after the Times story was published, however, Cohen told The Washington Post that he hadn't delivered the peace plan to Flynn nor discussed it with anyone in the White House.
...
Cohen shifted his story again on Monday, telling Business Insider in a series of text messages that he denies "even knowing what the plan is."
However, he later said that he met with Artemenko in New York for "under 10 minutes" to discuss a proposal Artemenko said "was acknowledged by Russian authorities that would create world peace."
"My response was, 'Who doesn't want world peace?'" Cohen said.
One of the Times reporters who broke the peace plan story, Scott Shane, pointed Business Insider to a statement the newspaper's deputy managing editor gave on Sunday: "Mr. Cohen told The Times in no uncertain terms that he delivered the Ukraine proposal to Michael Flynn's office at the White House. Mr. Sater told the Times that Mr. Cohen had told him the same thing."
Sater, a businessman of Russian descent who has boasted of his relationship with President Donald Trump, told The Post in May that he "handled all of the negotiations" for the Trump Organization's dealings in Russia in the mid-2000s.
...
Sater told the Post that he thought Cohen was going to deliver the plan to Flynn, but that Cohen had to wait because Flynn was in the middle of a Russia-related firestorm. Cohen, for his part, was named as a "liaison" between Trump and the Kremlin in the explosive, unsubstantiated dossier presented by top US intelligence officials to Trump and senior lawmakers last month.
...
Ukrainian lawmaker Andrii V. Artemenko, who met with Trump's campaign team during the election, was also involved in drafting the proposal. Artemenko told the Times he had evidence ofUkrainian President Petro Poroshenko's corruption that could lead to his ouster.
Business Insider
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On February 22 2017 02:17 Doodsmack wrote:Why is Trump surrounded by so many shadesters? Show nested quote +President Donald Trump's personal lawyer, Michael Cohen, was at the center of a bombshell New York Times report published Sunday that said he hand-delivered a "peace" plan for Russia and Ukraine to former National Security Adviser Michael Flynn before Flynn was asked to resign.
The plan — which The Times said was pushed by Cohen, businessman Felix Sater, and Ukrainian lawmaker Andrii Artemenko — involved lifting sanctions on Russia in return for Moscow withdrawing its support for pro-Russia separatists in eastern Ukraine, according to the report. It would also allow Russia to maintain control over Crimea, which it annexed in 2014.
Hours after the Times story was published, however, Cohen told The Washington Post that he hadn't delivered the peace plan to Flynn nor discussed it with anyone in the White House.
...
Cohen shifted his story again on Monday, telling Business Insider in a series of text messages that he denies "even knowing what the plan is."
However, he later said that he met with Artemenko in New York for "under 10 minutes" to discuss a proposal Artemenko said "was acknowledged by Russian authorities that would create world peace."
"My response was, 'Who doesn't want world peace?'" Cohen said.
One of the Times reporters who broke the peace plan story, Scott Shane, pointed Business Insider to a statement the newspaper's deputy managing editor gave on Sunday: "Mr. Cohen told The Times in no uncertain terms that he delivered the Ukraine proposal to Michael Flynn's office at the White House. Mr. Sater told the Times that Mr. Cohen had told him the same thing."
Sater, a businessman of Russian descent who has boasted of his relationship with President Donald Trump, told The Post in May that he "handled all of the negotiations" for the Trump Organization's dealings in Russia in the mid-2000s.
...
Sater told the Post that he thought Cohen was going to deliver the plan to Flynn, but that Cohen had to wait because Flynn was in the middle of a Russia-related firestorm. Cohen, for his part, was named as a "liaison" between Trump and the Kremlin in the explosive, unsubstantiated dossier presented by top US intelligence officials to Trump and senior lawmakers last month.
...
Ukrainian lawmaker Andrii V. Artemenko, who met with Trump's campaign team during the election, was also involved in drafting the proposal. Artemenko told the Times he had evidence ofUkrainian President Petro Poroshenko's corruption that could lead to his ouster. Business Insider
Because no one with integrity wants to touch him with a 10 foot pole.
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On February 22 2017 02:09 ChristianS wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2017 23:09 LegalLord wrote:
We can't afford to nominate a socialist. We have to win this election no matter the cost. And to that end, it would be irresponsible to choose anyone but the most experienced, electable candidate we could possibly have. Never mind anything else, we have to win, and Trump is SO BAD. Out of curiosity: you spend a hell of a lot of time mocking this logic. Which part do you actually disagree with? Evidence at this point would suggest that Trump is, in fact, so bad. The thought at the time was she was a more stable, predictable candidate that was less likely to lose on some weird fluke. We have information now that we couldn't possibly have had then (that she did eventually lose), but even now we don't know Bernie would have done better. The conventional wisdom at the time was that the word "socialist" has such horrible connotations in American politics that you could air 30 second spots of Bernie saying "I'm a democratic socialist" on repeat for the entire cycle and he'd be sunk. Your mockery of the term "electable" aside, what exactly makes that argument so dumb?
Trump being "so bad" isn't necessarily the point. Problem is that for at least half the country, Hillary is also "so bad." It's not reason enough to discard all other possible arguments because it's just not reason enough for a lot of people.
There were troubling signs a year ago, before the nomination was wrapped up. The first issue was that Bernie was polling better. Partially due to the fact that leftists who call themselves independents (people like GH) were strongly supporting of him. But he had a hairline lead against her with centrist independents too. And she had a truly impressively low approval rating back then, and that was all with people acknowledging that Bernie was an impractical socialist.
The emails, the history of backroom deals, the history of making poor judgment calls (and having an infinite number of apologists ready to make excuses for her failures), her utter lack of charisma and tendency to lie out the ass, her tendency to be stubborn and inflexible - these were known quantities. The DNC leaks, the FBI decision, a rebellion within the party, rural voters giving her the biggest "fuck you" possible, her making the utterly stupid mistake of choosing Kaine as a VP, the Republicans who hated Trump ultimately deciding to vote for him anyways - these weren't known quantities, but each of them were possibilities. Her vulnerability was a well known factor.
In short, the electability argument was so mind-numbingly stupid because despite surface-level appearances she was a deeply vulnerable candidate. I always made the case that Trump had a chance and that he could have won. Folk like Sam Wang PhD pretended Hillary actually genuinely had a 99.9% victory chance. So anyone making the argument that she was electable and that's why she deserves the nomination - they deserve to be mocked for eternity.
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Mitch needs a safe space from democracy.
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On February 22 2017 01:47 ThaddeusK wrote:
Is this thread really going to come back to arguing about Hillary every 3 days for the next 4 years? She's irrelevant and we've had like 3 months of talking about it already, can we just drop it.
If you want another Trump, you can ignore Hillary's extreme qualifications (lol). Or look up the reasons others think it's relevant (SB+quote/response). We get these shock and awe stories of just how bad Trump is and how this was already foreshadowed, but the Trump voters sent him to the powerful position in the first place.
LL's been laying it out lately; I don't need to repeat the same points. The prominence hinges on lessons nobody wants to learn.
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On February 22 2017 01:47 ThaddeusK wrote:
Is this thread really going to come back to arguing about Hillary every 3 days for the next 4 years? She's irrelevant and we've had like 3 months of talking about it already, can we just drop it.
probably not. failures of democracy happen, so it's gonna be an issue for quite awhile, as it is an exceptional failure event.
especially not since some people are very fond of harping on it.
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Of course a Republican likes the take on things that places the majority of the blame for Trump on Democrats, though the implications there insofar as the agency of Republican voters is concerned is not exactly pretty. Then again, if this is how we get conservatives to admit that their policies live and die on nothing more than reactionary fumes given off by angry, mostly uninformed working class white people, then so be it I guess.
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LL offers half an argument about mistakes and vulnerabilities of the clinton campaign, though it's a good half argument. it omits the other side - decades of slander the republicans have thrown, and while that was a known liability, the dems/ campaign underestimated to what degree republicans were willing to put party over country and supposed morals. the sanders campaign played heavily off of that. (though in the interest of not offering only half the argument, they also offered a dramatically more leftist/socialist vision of america/ what the dems could push for, which has its upsides and downsides).
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For some light entertainment between Trump's EOs, I quite enjoyed this overview of all the domains that are registered in Trump's name:
http://ht3.cdn.turner.com/money/big/technology/2017/02/20/trump-weirdest-domain-names-registered-websites.cnnmoney_1024x576.mp4
According to a CNNMoney investigation, Führer Cheeto President Trump owns at least 3,643 domain names.
Some are fairly typical:
TrumpEmpire.com
TrumpOrganization.com
TrumpBuilding.com
Others, not so much:
TrumpNetworkSucks.com
TrumpNetworkMarketingFraud.com
TrumpScam.com
Trump may have had a crystal ball in some cases. After launching the Trump Network in 2009 — a “recession proof” multi-level marketing business hawking vitamin supplements — he was quick to scoop up domains like TrumpNetworkFraud.com, TrumpPyramidScheme.com, and TrumpNetworkPonziScheme.com. He sold the business in 2012 amid allegations of — surprise — fraud.
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source
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Personally, I want those working class voters to get everything they are asking for from the Republicans. As quickly as possible.
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List of exceptional qualifications Hillary Clinton has:
1. Did not go work for just any old high-paying firm, as she could have done with a Yale law degree. Proved her virtue by working for the Children's Defense Fund.
2. Piggybacked on the charisma of her husband to play the role of a highly active and political First Lady - as governor, then as president.
3. Won two noncompetitive races for Senate in New York. Managed to convince herself that Iraq was a good war to get behind; it would shore up her FP credentials and make her look like a champion of the military for when she ran for president.
4. Won the popular vote in the 2008 primaries by a technicality - her opponent wasn't on the ballot in one state. Received Secretary of State position as consolation prize for losing while having lots of fans.
5. Made an impressive number of backroom deals while in office. Secured lots of funding for her foundation and made lots of money on private speeches.
6. Won the 2016 nomination on the back of a bogus "electability" argument and an impressive success in courting favor with party officials. Received an unprecedented amount of support for her candidacy before any votes were counted.
7. Avoided prison time for using a private email server to send classified information around.
8. Won by massive margins of popular vote in California and New York despite losing overall.
9. Shifted the topic of discussion of the entire campaign to identity politics and how much of a racist sexist xenophobic person Trump is.
10. In spite of all this, somehow has a core base of supporters who explain away every single one of her mistakes and failures (no easy task), not ever wondering if the fact that all these failures having one common denominator- her involvement - should be meaningful.
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legal being an example of those people who just can't keep harping on it. and in ways that skip significant accuracy parts, as kwiz has demonstrated on several past occasions.
feels almost more like hating on hillary as a way of feeling better about the unfortunate result. i.e. rationalization. probably not though, just feels like it sometimes.
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you forgot the one where she got a large number of otherwise rational people to hate her and belittle her accomplishments and exaggerate her failures
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Any defense of Hillary just feeds into LL's blanket denial of "somehow has a core base of supporters who explain away every single one of her mistakes and failures (no easy task)" so really what's the point of going through this like the 30th time.
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EPT
