In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!
NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
On February 01 2017 09:31 biology]major wrote: This type of obstructionism seen on both sides is why people voted for Trump in the first place. Washington DC is regarded as dysfunctional, and the democrats are feeding into that narrative. Trump has to capitalize on this and sustain that narrative that capitol hill is indeed nothing but partisan hacks.
Yes and no. If the American people put a Democratic majority back in the Senate in two years, they'd be expected to oppose a Trump agenda. Like when Obama's big Obamacare gamble failed and 2010 saw big gains in House and gains in the Senate, they essentially had a mandate to oppose the current thrust of policy. Compromise when able, but the duty of the opposition is to oppose. Let the people decide if this is being done for capricious or Capitol-insular reasons by throwing the bums out next time they're up for election.
On February 01 2017 08:39 xDaunt wrote:... This is ridiculously presumptuous. Basically you're saying "I don't agree with those people, so they're clearly idiots." ...
If you're going to make this argument, it would behoove you to refer to the big bad "Left" less often.
I use "the Left" as a description for the political opposition to my side ("the Right"). There's no further judgment associated with the tag in either my usage of it or others' usage, but I find it interesting that you think that there is one.
Your assertion of that, together with a very thinly veiled accusation that it's all in my head, doesn't make it true... nor is it likely to convince anybody that it's true.
Rather the opposite, actually.
Would you rather I use "Liberal?" Because I've also been told that Liberal is a pejorative term. How about this. Why don't you tell me what you self-identify as and we'll see if that's a better term to use.
I don't care what term you use, I'm observing that you use "Left" as a perjorative, and unless you modify yourself I expect whatever term you use to represent a related concept is going to get used as a perjorative.
See, I'm interpreting what you're saying as "xDaunt must be using 'the Left' as a pejorative term because whenever he uses the term, he is expressing some form of disagreement with, or attack on, the Left." If I relentlessly criticized ostriches in thread, would you say that I was using the term "ostrich" as a pejorative? In my world, things are what they are. My usage of the Left is merely a label.
I don't think you're capable of evaluating the merits of a point of view held by the "Left" or the "Right" without a bias based on which of them holds it. I don't expect you're capable of agreeing with that statement, though. To be fair, that is a fault shared to a greater or lesser degree with most people in the world.
To make a similar statement from another direction, you view the "Left"-leaning people in your own country as an enemy to be defeated, not fellow citizens to coexist with, as evidenced by your sympathy for this point of view.
And that is how the left views the right in this country, as should be clear. Trump is a reaction to that, as xDaunt (and others) have been saying.
I'm not interested in having or even seeing some argument about "who started it". It would be inherently infantile.
I have a better solution: Take a good hard look at yourselves, and then be better.
(EDIT: That's not only advice to Introvert, xDaunt, and whoever shares their political leanings around here - probably everybody could benefit from it.)
Just review the quote line Aquanim. If you can't give the opponent the benefit of the doubt in their use and nonuse of pejoratives for the bare basics, your problem will never be about "who started it" but "Why can't I debate someone without the perception that he or she is always insulting me." The surrounding atmosphere with a bitter struggle and conducted by divisive figures still doesn't preclude your ability to be civil without a three-step process of mistating, accusing, and fleeing the field.
Otherwise, and no offense intended, a rational person might get the wrong idea. Namely, that you're not open to being persuaded to reconcile with someone you irrationally dislike.
"And has had bipartisan support" "Nominated unanimously"
Oh he's laying it on thick for the coming nomination fight.
Wait didn't he just choose him? I don't know how this works.
Has to be confirmed in the Senate. And has to get past the filibuster, unlike Cabinet appointees.
He was put on a lower court by voice vote, I believe.
Didn't Trump have the majority there, conquered in the elections?
With the filibuster rule he will need 60 votes. The filibuster does not apply to Cabinet appointees (or lower court appointees). They may do away with that rule, however.
On February 01 2017 08:44 Aquanim wrote: [quote] If you're going to make this argument, it would behoove you to refer to the big bad "Left" less often.
I use "the Left" as a description for the political opposition to my side ("the Right"). There's no further judgment associated with the tag in either my usage of it or others' usage, but I find it interesting that you think that there is one.
Your assertion of that, together with a very thinly veiled accusation that it's all in my head, doesn't make it true... nor is it likely to convince anybody that it's true.
Rather the opposite, actually.
Would you rather I use "Liberal?" Because I've also been told that Liberal is a pejorative term. How about this. Why don't you tell me what you self-identify as and we'll see if that's a better term to use.
I don't care what term you use, I'm observing that you use "Left" as a perjorative, and unless you modify yourself I expect whatever term you use to represent a related concept is going to get used as a perjorative.
See, I'm interpreting what you're saying as "xDaunt must be using 'the Left' as a pejorative term because whenever he uses the term, he is expressing some form of disagreement with, or attack on, the Left." If I relentlessly criticized ostriches in thread, would you say that I was using the term "ostrich" as a pejorative? In my world, things are what they are. My usage of the Left is merely a label.
I don't think you're capable of evaluating the merits of a point of view held by the "Left" or the "Right" without a bias based on which of them holds it. I don't expect you're capable of agreeing with that statement, though. To be fair, that is a fault shared to a greater or lesser degree with most people in the world.
To make a similar statement from another direction, you view the "Left"-leaning people in your own country as an enemy to be defeated, not fellow citizens to coexist with, as evidenced by your sympathy for this point of view.
And that is how the left views the right in this country, as should be clear. Trump is a reaction to that, as xDaunt (and others) have been saying.
I don't think it's too bold of a prediction to say whatever left comes up with next, will be in large part a reaction to Trump. Thus we've gone tit for tat and the country is no closer to be united on anything other than an agreement to radically change direction every 8 years.
Like I've mentioned previously, I think that the Left's "correct" response to Trump will require some fairly dramatic changes to the playbook that they've used over the past generation or two. Given all of their doubling-down on their current strategies, I don't see the Left properly course-correcting any time soon.
What do you think is the correct thing to do if you had to strategize for the left? If you've already said this somewhere I'd be happy to read from earlier.
In my view, we're beyond generic strategies like "focus on labor" or "make some concessions". These may have been things the left could have done to win the previous election, but to me running an establishment candidate and focusing on that would be the "double down".
I feel the situation should be met with a "reraise" so to say. My perspective is that the left should either embrace the Sanders/Warren type movement, or directly challenge Trump with someone like Musk/Gates/Stuart. Either way, the grass roots support would be extremely large. Before this election, I don't think the candidates in the second group would have been seriously considered. The left's playbook was extremely limited before because establishment was working, but now the door is wide open for more inventive plays. It will be truly fascinating to see what they come up with but I hope for their sake it's more than a "double down".
On February 01 2017 09:31 biology]major wrote: This type of obstructionism seen on both sides is why people voted for Trump in the first place. Washington DC is regarded as dysfunctional, and the democrats are feeding into that narrative. Trump has to capitalize on this and sustain that narrative that capitol hill is indeed nothing but partisan hacks.
Is this outrage from "the Right" in this thread against "the Left" the last 8 years, something like, Obama made Obamacare, the US disagreed with how Obamacare turned out and thus we elected Republicans to oppose everything about Obama? Therefore it is Obama's fault and the Democrat's fault for making Obamacare and for making us elect Republicans to make the government dysfunctional, which in short means it's Obama's fault for making the government dysfunctional?
On February 01 2017 08:44 Aquanim wrote: [quote] If you're going to make this argument, it would behoove you to refer to the big bad "Left" less often.
I use "the Left" as a description for the political opposition to my side ("the Right"). There's no further judgment associated with the tag in either my usage of it or others' usage, but I find it interesting that you think that there is one.
Your assertion of that, together with a very thinly veiled accusation that it's all in my head, doesn't make it true... nor is it likely to convince anybody that it's true.
Rather the opposite, actually.
Would you rather I use "Liberal?" Because I've also been told that Liberal is a pejorative term. How about this. Why don't you tell me what you self-identify as and we'll see if that's a better term to use.
I don't care what term you use, I'm observing that you use "Left" as a perjorative, and unless you modify yourself I expect whatever term you use to represent a related concept is going to get used as a perjorative.
See, I'm interpreting what you're saying as "xDaunt must be using 'the Left' as a pejorative term because whenever he uses the term, he is expressing some form of disagreement with, or attack on, the Left." If I relentlessly criticized ostriches in thread, would you say that I was using the term "ostrich" as a pejorative? In my world, things are what they are. My usage of the Left is merely a label.
I don't think you're capable of evaluating the merits of a point of view held by the "Left" or the "Right" without a bias based on which of them holds it. I don't expect you're capable of agreeing with that statement, though. To be fair, that is a fault shared to a greater or lesser degree with most people in the world.
To make a similar statement from another direction, you view the "Left"-leaning people in your own country as an enemy to be defeated, not fellow citizens to coexist with, as evidenced by your sympathy for this point of view.
And that is how the left views the right in this country, as should be clear. Trump is a reaction to that, as xDaunt (and others) have been saying.
I'm not interested in having or even seeing some argument about "who started it". It would be inherently infantile.
I have a better solution: Take a good hard look at yourselves, and then be better.
(EDIT: That's not only advice to Introvert, xDaunt, and whoever shares their political leanings around here - probably everybody could benefit from it.)
Well let me ease your mind-- I'm not a Trump fan. I wish more Republicans would fight back against the press, but not in this way.
But moreover the advice is ridiculous. The whole point is that the right spent forever trying to follow your advice, and what did they get? People ratcheting up the -ist attacks, going after bakers, and more less being slammed from every side. It would be great it both sides could "get better" but that's not going to work when one side refuses. All you will do is lose.
On February 01 2017 08:44 Aquanim wrote: [quote] If you're going to make this argument, it would behoove you to refer to the big bad "Left" less often.
I use "the Left" as a description for the political opposition to my side ("the Right"). There's no further judgment associated with the tag in either my usage of it or others' usage, but I find it interesting that you think that there is one.
Your assertion of that, together with a very thinly veiled accusation that it's all in my head, doesn't make it true... nor is it likely to convince anybody that it's true.
Rather the opposite, actually.
Would you rather I use "Liberal?" Because I've also been told that Liberal is a pejorative term. How about this. Why don't you tell me what you self-identify as and we'll see if that's a better term to use.
I don't care what term you use, I'm observing that you use "Left" as a perjorative, and unless you modify yourself I expect whatever term you use to represent a related concept is going to get used as a perjorative.
See, I'm interpreting what you're saying as "xDaunt must be using 'the Left' as a pejorative term because whenever he uses the term, he is expressing some form of disagreement with, or attack on, the Left." If I relentlessly criticized ostriches in thread, would you say that I was using the term "ostrich" as a pejorative? In my world, things are what they are. My usage of the Left is merely a label.
I don't think you're capable of evaluating the merits of a point of view held by the "Left" or the "Right" without a bias based on which of them holds it. I don't expect you're capable of agreeing with that statement, though. To be fair, that is a fault shared to a greater or lesser degree with most people in the world.
To make a similar statement from another direction, you view the "Left"-leaning people in your own country as an enemy to be defeated, not fellow citizens to coexist with, as evidenced by your sympathy for this point of view.
And that is how the left views the right in this country, as should be clear. Trump is a reaction to that, as xDaunt (and others) have been saying.
I don't think it's too bold of a prediction to say whatever left comes up with next, will be in large part a reaction to Trump. Thus we've gone tit for tat and the country is no closer to be united on anything other than an agreement to radically change direction every 8 years.
Sure it will, but the question is will their final plan be to double down on what got them where they are?
All the right did was lose? I don't get this narrative how the left is so oppressive and all that victim playing and how their under siege yatta yatta. When you control significant parts of government (been controlling a majority of state level govs for a long time now) with also having congressional majority I see it as the people with the upper hand whining because they aren't winning hard enough. The right and left in this country are split pretty evenly with a decent chunk who flip depending on issues/candidates. The right media has spent a long time crafting the victim "we are oppressed" narrative giving people on the right the idea and driving fear into them so that they have this kind of reaction. They just wanted to motivate their base but that fear mongering created Trump and now we are all fools.
What will happen first: A party sizes 60 seats in the senat and can get their wanted person into the scotus. Or: All judges in the scotus died out first.
On February 01 2017 08:44 Aquanim wrote: [quote] If you're going to make this argument, it would behoove you to refer to the big bad "Left" less often.
I use "the Left" as a description for the political opposition to my side ("the Right"). There's no further judgment associated with the tag in either my usage of it or others' usage, but I find it interesting that you think that there is one.
Your assertion of that, together with a very thinly veiled accusation that it's all in my head, doesn't make it true... nor is it likely to convince anybody that it's true.
Rather the opposite, actually.
Would you rather I use "Liberal?" Because I've also been told that Liberal is a pejorative term. How about this. Why don't you tell me what you self-identify as and we'll see if that's a better term to use.
I don't care what term you use, I'm observing that you use "Left" as a perjorative, and unless you modify yourself I expect whatever term you use to represent a related concept is going to get used as a perjorative.
See, I'm interpreting what you're saying as "xDaunt must be using 'the Left' as a pejorative term because whenever he uses the term, he is expressing some form of disagreement with, or attack on, the Left." If I relentlessly criticized ostriches in thread, would you say that I was using the term "ostrich" as a pejorative? In my world, things are what they are. My usage of the Left is merely a label.
I don't think you're capable of evaluating the merits of a point of view held by the "Left" or the "Right" without a bias based on which of them holds it. I don't expect you're capable of agreeing with that statement, though. To be fair, that is a fault shared to a greater or lesser degree with most people in the world.
To make a similar statement from another direction, you view the "Left"-leaning people in your own country as an enemy to be defeated, not fellow citizens to coexist with, as evidenced by your sympathy for this point of view.
And that is how the left views the right in this country, as should be clear. Trump is a reaction to that, as xDaunt (and others) have been saying.
I don't think it's too bold of a prediction to say whatever left comes up with next, will be in large part a reaction to Trump. Thus we've gone tit for tat and the country is no closer to be united on anything other than an agreement to radically change direction every 8 years.
Like I've mentioned previously, I think that the Left's "correct" response to Trump will require some fairly dramatic changes to the playbook that they've used over the past generation or two. Given all of their doubling-down on their current strategies, I don't see the Left properly course-correcting any time soon.
Aren't you at all concerned they will run some largely baggage free left mirror image of Trump and beat him in his inevitable bid for re-election?
I find that idea almost as scary as what we currently have and if my imagination was better maybe I'd find it even worse.
It's like an iterative prisoners dilemma solution... you are both better off co-operating, so you start by trying that. But if the other side is playing hawk the 'correct' response is to play hawk back from that point on..
Not sure anyone seems to trust the other side enough to take a chance on cooperation again.
On February 01 2017 08:47 xDaunt wrote: [quote] I use "the Left" as a description for the political opposition to my side ("the Right"). There's no further judgment associated with the tag in either my usage of it or others' usage, but I find it interesting that you think that there is one.
Your assertion of that, together with a very thinly veiled accusation that it's all in my head, doesn't make it true... nor is it likely to convince anybody that it's true.
Rather the opposite, actually.
Would you rather I use "Liberal?" Because I've also been told that Liberal is a pejorative term. How about this. Why don't you tell me what you self-identify as and we'll see if that's a better term to use.
I don't care what term you use, I'm observing that you use "Left" as a perjorative, and unless you modify yourself I expect whatever term you use to represent a related concept is going to get used as a perjorative.
See, I'm interpreting what you're saying as "xDaunt must be using 'the Left' as a pejorative term because whenever he uses the term, he is expressing some form of disagreement with, or attack on, the Left." If I relentlessly criticized ostriches in thread, would you say that I was using the term "ostrich" as a pejorative? In my world, things are what they are. My usage of the Left is merely a label.
I don't think you're capable of evaluating the merits of a point of view held by the "Left" or the "Right" without a bias based on which of them holds it. I don't expect you're capable of agreeing with that statement, though. To be fair, that is a fault shared to a greater or lesser degree with most people in the world.
To make a similar statement from another direction, you view the "Left"-leaning people in your own country as an enemy to be defeated, not fellow citizens to coexist with, as evidenced by your sympathy for this point of view.
And that is how the left views the right in this country, as should be clear. Trump is a reaction to that, as xDaunt (and others) have been saying.
I don't think it's too bold of a prediction to say whatever left comes up with next, will be in large part a reaction to Trump. Thus we've gone tit for tat and the country is no closer to be united on anything other than an agreement to radically change direction every 8 years.
Like I've mentioned previously, I think that the Left's "correct" response to Trump will require some fairly dramatic changes to the playbook that they've used over the past generation or two. Given all of their doubling-down on their current strategies, I don't see the Left properly course-correcting any time soon.
What do you think is the correct thing to do if you had to strategize for the left? If you've already said this somewhere I'd be happy to read from earlier.
In my view, we're beyond generic strategies like "focus on labor" or "make some concessions". These may have been things the left could have done to win the previous election, but to me running an establishment candidate and focusing on that would be the "double down".
I feel the situation should be met with a "reraise" so to say. My perspective is that the left should either embrace the Sanders/Warren type movement, or directly challenge Trump with someone like Musk/Gates/Stuart. Either way, the grass roots support would be extremely large. Before this election, I don't think the candidates in the second group would have been seriously considered. The left's playbook was extremely limited before because establishment was working, but now the door is wide open for more inventive plays. It will be truly fascinating to see what they come up with but I hope for their sake it's more than a "double down".
xDaunt has been saying for a while liberals need to calm down, treat Donald more "fairly," and not criticize him so much. I'm a little skeptical that "pipe down and quit complaining" is an effective political strategy.
Personally I think what's required of the opposition at this point is extraordinary stamina. Don't back down, don't compromise with totalitarianism, keep calling out unacceptable behaviors and policies for what they are. Don't let him normalize this, don't let him fatigue you into apathy or insanity, and don't give up hope. Most likely path here is Trump keeps fucking up governing, gets defensive, and either goes harder on propaganda or tries to seize more unilateral power. In either case, a strong, untiring opposition must meet him.
the left's problem is not what strategy to choose. there are some obvious winners. it's rather would it be able to choose and prosecute any strategy whatsoever.
the primary process propels the radical wing of the dem party. caucuses and the very activated activist segment drive this effect. a guy like mike mullen, even if he were to run, would not be either the establish candidate or the activist darling. given how trolly trump has been and will continue to be, the dem primaries will feature at least one powerful Protester in Chief type character, and that's going to set the tenor of the 'debates'.
On February 01 2017 10:18 Clonester wrote: What will happen first: A party sizes 60 seats in the senat and can get their wanted person into the scotus. Or: All judges in the scotus died out first.
Option 3: The senate majority leader invokes the nuclear option requiring only 51 to confirm. McConnel has said in the past he would not, but I expect his resolution to break before the Democrats budge on filibuster or Trump withdraws and nominates a squish.
On February 01 2017 09:31 biology]major wrote: This type of obstructionism seen on both sides is why people voted for Trump in the first place. Washington DC is regarded as dysfunctional, and the democrats are feeding into that narrative. Trump has to capitalize on this and sustain that narrative that capitol hill is indeed nothing but partisan hacks.
washington dc is indeed somewhat dysfunctional; that people are foolish enough to think putting someone omre dysfunctional in is an answer is sad. that most people are unable to recognize how to fix the system, and do not vote to support those who could actually fix the system is a problem. soooo many problems in the world would go away if people just had better judgment.
On February 01 2017 08:47 xDaunt wrote: [quote] I use "the Left" as a description for the political opposition to my side ("the Right"). There's no further judgment associated with the tag in either my usage of it or others' usage, but I find it interesting that you think that there is one.
Your assertion of that, together with a very thinly veiled accusation that it's all in my head, doesn't make it true... nor is it likely to convince anybody that it's true.
Rather the opposite, actually.
Would you rather I use "Liberal?" Because I've also been told that Liberal is a pejorative term. How about this. Why don't you tell me what you self-identify as and we'll see if that's a better term to use.
I don't care what term you use, I'm observing that you use "Left" as a perjorative, and unless you modify yourself I expect whatever term you use to represent a related concept is going to get used as a perjorative.
See, I'm interpreting what you're saying as "xDaunt must be using 'the Left' as a pejorative term because whenever he uses the term, he is expressing some form of disagreement with, or attack on, the Left." If I relentlessly criticized ostriches in thread, would you say that I was using the term "ostrich" as a pejorative? In my world, things are what they are. My usage of the Left is merely a label.
I don't think you're capable of evaluating the merits of a point of view held by the "Left" or the "Right" without a bias based on which of them holds it. I don't expect you're capable of agreeing with that statement, though. To be fair, that is a fault shared to a greater or lesser degree with most people in the world.
To make a similar statement from another direction, you view the "Left"-leaning people in your own country as an enemy to be defeated, not fellow citizens to coexist with, as evidenced by your sympathy for this point of view.
And that is how the left views the right in this country, as should be clear. Trump is a reaction to that, as xDaunt (and others) have been saying.
I don't think it's too bold of a prediction to say whatever left comes up with next, will be in large part a reaction to Trump. Thus we've gone tit for tat and the country is no closer to be united on anything other than an agreement to radically change direction every 8 years.
Like I've mentioned previously, I think that the Left's "correct" response to Trump will require some fairly dramatic changes to the playbook that they've used over the past generation or two. Given all of their doubling-down on their current strategies, I don't see the Left properly course-correcting any time soon.
What do you think is the correct thing to do if you had to strategize for the left? If you've already said this somewhere I'd be happy to read from earlier.
In my view, we're beyond generic strategies like "focus on labor" or "make some concessions". These may have been things the left could have done to win the previous election, but to me running an establishment candidate and focusing on that would be the "double down".
I feel the situation should be met with a "reraise" so to say. My perspective is that the left should either embrace the Sanders/Warren type movement, or directly challenge Trump with someone like Musk/Gates/Stuart. Either way, the grass roots support would be extremely large. Before this election, I don't think the candidates in the second group would have been seriously considered. The left's playbook was extremely limited before because establishment was working, but now the door is wide open for more inventive plays. It will be truly fascinating to see what they come up with but I hope for their sake it's more than a "double down".
I don't really know, but my best guess is that the correct answer is some degree of moderation. I don't think that the Left is going to win when the debate is so super-polarized.
On February 01 2017 10:43 Liquid`Jinro wrote: So this Neil Gorsuch fellow doesn't sound that bad. ... is that why nobody is discussing him?
Just some cursory reading but he didn't seem that extreme at all.
I haven't heard enough yet to say, haven't looked through reviews and such. it's still shameful that the republicans didn't look at garland ofc, and some people so partisan they can't admit to that.
but it is generally true that the unobjectionable and decent stuff gets very little coverage.
EPT
