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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please. In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. | ||
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NukeD
Croatia1612 Posts
On January 27 2017 21:48 oneofthem wrote: unfortunately the trump-bernie revolution cannot be said to be free of foreign influence If you mean Russia then yes, yes it can. | ||
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xM(Z
Romania5281 Posts
On January 27 2017 22:06 NukeD wrote: i'd tell you to head to N-Korea(figuratively), then ask yourself if those people have it worse than the mexicans and if so, why aren't they protesting/creating revolutions?. So its bassically what happened in Yugoslavia aswell. CIA had their fingers all over that. Ok so Romania is a poor example of what could and should happen in Mexico, but I am sure it is a fertile ground for a spontaneous revolution if Mexicans aren't able to "refuge" to other countries. | ||
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{CC}StealthBlue
United States41117 Posts
Donald Trump ordered the National Park Service director to produce additional photographs of his inauguration crowds, believing the images “might prove that the media had lied” about the size of the audience, according to the Washington Post. In a Saturday phone call, the president told Michael Reynolds, acting NPS director, that he wanted to see more photos because he thought they could show that the attendance at his Friday swearing-in ceremonies at the National Mall was above average, three sources with knowledge of the conversation told the Post. Parks spokesman Tom Crosson told the Guardian in an email on Thursday night, “I can confirm the call happened ... but I’m not discussing the content of the call.” The account from the Post comes as reports in the first week of Trump’s administration have repeatedly suggested that the president has been obsessed with the flurry of news stories that accurately pointed out that the inauguration had a noticeably smaller crowd than the equivalent event in 2009 when Barack Obama was sworn in. In his first conference as press secretary for the White House, Sean Spicer angrily accused journalists of misreporting the crowd size in an effort “to minimize the enormous support that gathered on the National Mall”. Aerial photos showed that Trump had a smaller crowd than Obama, and the Women’s March protests on Saturday also clearly attracted a larger group. In the phone call with Reynolds, who did not respond to the Guardian’s request for comment, Trump also expressed anger about the NPS Twitter account retweeting an image of side-by-side photographs comparing the 2009 and 2017 events, the Post reported. In his first week, Trump also reportedly banned numerous federal agencies from “providing updates on social media or to reporters” with a de facto gag order that sparked widespread concern about censorship and government transparency. The Department of the Interior’s social media privileges were also briefly suspended after the NPS retweet, which the agency later deleted before issuing a short apology. Source | ||
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Acrofales
Spain17983 Posts
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NukeD
Croatia1612 Posts
On January 27 2017 22:15 xM(Z wrote: i'd tell you to head to N-Korea(figuratively), then ask yourself if those people have it worse than the mexicans and if so, why aren't they protesting/creating revolutions?. I dont know, im uneducated enough on North Korea to have a sensible answer other than speculation so I dont know how much the NK example is appliable to Mexico. Probably not very much I would assume. | ||
Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
On January 27 2017 21:14 NukeD wrote: Yeah, I watched it. It was very crude. Still tho, going after his IQ is a low blow and reeks of indiscriminate and automated bashing of Trump regardless of his action and based primarilly on his image, which I might add, is always a sign of a low IQ individual. Media will do that to you tho if you absorb their information without a big reserve. EDIT: Obviously I am not accusing you of that, just to be clear. I've only been able to read the transcript as I'm not at home atm, but it was a bit jarring to read... Anyway continuing on to your next post, given that it is the president's own words being discussed here I don't feel the source of them is that relevant as long as un-edited. Though i guess the interviewer has a part in it too, but I dont feel he should come off this badly even with the least well intentioned reporter. | ||
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
On January 27 2017 16:28 Liquid`Jinro wrote: Has this been posted already? https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2017/01/26/donald-trumps-brazen-first-interview-as-president-annotated/?tid=pm_politics_pop This is a terrifying interview... with how he speaks i wonder if anyone would notice if he slipped into dementia. Oh jeez. There is so many things wrong in this interview, I don't even know where to start. | ||
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Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
On January 27 2017 21:40 NukeD wrote: Thank you! You see, this is all i want. An OBJECTIVE look into the issue. This is why I am so frustrated, MSM portrays everything as it is all rainbows and ponies over there (downright lying and cover uping what is going on) while on the other hand the alternative sources claim it is hell on earth. Why can't we have a reasonable discussion on media about these things? I guess they are affraid that by bringing up those issues it will cause a rise in nationalistic sentimnets in people but I am sure that by ignoring the issue completelly, they are doing exactly that. People are not unreasonable as they think and it is time they stop treating us as children. If there is a issue, or people are worried there might be an issue, bring it up, we can handle it and discuss it. I also believe this is a major part of the story why Trump got elected. I actually agree completely with this. It's a little disheartening watching the left continually set itself back in this way (and other ways not really relevant to this thread I guess). After running across people randomly talking about sweden having turned into some kind of warzone online it was a little annoying to not be able to have somewhere I could go and just feel confident in getting an unbiased overview of the situation. | ||
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oneofthem
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
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mustaju
Estonia4504 Posts
The first argument from the gentleman with the pseudonym "rageholic", is a revolutionary view of politics (itself controversial), and terribly uncritical of his own perspective. Here's a list of justifications for criticism, which you may or may not disagree with. 1) Revolutionary movements are effective in opposition to something, but very rarely in being constructive. Would the revolution in Mexico spur ethnic conflict? How about a brand of terrorism? Would the result be worse, such as in the case of North Korea or current Syria? Possibly. Mexico already has a number of deaths comparable to a civil war from it's war against the drug cartels. 2) About 5 million American jobs are directly dependent on Mexico, and a conflict there would probably be an economic blow to the US. 3) Civil wars can lead to a massive influx of refugees from Central America. 4) Sending people to Mexico so that they would die in a civil war is horribly unethical and a blight on US reputation as well as relationships with Mexico at the very least. 5)At no point in time does he acknowledge that the US might be positively influencing Mexico with it's system of accepting immigrants, laying ground for a less violent and disruptive form of government change. As far as your criticism of the Media is concerned, you appear to be somewhat tone-deaf. A swedish person here told you that the whole thing is overblown, basically confirming the narrative of the MSM you just accused of lying, and I find that contradictory. All of your claims are unsourced, and that really made me think multiple times whether to even reply, since conspiracy theorists are notoriously difficult to convince or argue with, and you echo a lot of their arguments while contrasting them with mainstream media. | ||
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TheTenthDoc
United States9561 Posts
One thing's for sure: the incompetence aspects leftover from the campaign (not registering delegates to national conventions/not applying in a timely manner to general election ballots/etc.) are here to stay. | ||
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Acrofales
Spain17983 Posts
On January 27 2017 23:35 TheTenthDoc wrote: I can't help but find the mind-bogglingly dumb mistakes like tweeting a photo of the inauguration with the wrong date and having no one in the administration able to spell Theresa May's name somewhat cathartic amongst all the discussions implying that Trump's presidency is some master gamesmanship plan. One thing's for sure: the incompetence aspects leftover from the campaign (not registering delegates to national conventions/not applying in a timely manner to general election ballots/etc.) are here to stay. It's been 16 years, so I can't really compare. Is Trump actually completely incompetent, or is this the same kind of stuff we got with "Bush or Chimp?", Bushisms and the relentless flow of people making fun of Dubya? Despite him being a fairly intelligent man according to more levelheaded opinions. That said, Dubya 2.0 would be a bad enough blow for the world. So I'm not sure it really makes much of a difference whether Trump is an absolute moron, or simply looks like one any time he opens his mouth/twitter account. Because at the end of the day, George W. Bush's policies cast the world into a ruinous recession (sure, it wasn't all him, but it was on his watch), and two disastrous wars that achieved absolutely nothing in the long run, regardless of whether you agree with his intentions or not. | ||
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Liquid`Jinro
Sweden33719 Posts
On January 27 2017 23:30 mustaju wrote: @Nuked - since you asked for a dialogue, here's some input from my side in regards to your posts in the last 2 pages. The first argument from the gentleman with the pseudonym "rageholic", is a revolutionary view of politics (itself controversial), and terribly uncritical of his own perspective. Here's a list of justifications for criticism, which you may or may not disagree with. 1) Revolutionary movements are effective in opposition to something, but very rarely in being constructive. Would the revolution in Mexico spur ethnic conflict? How about a brand of terrorism? Would the result be worse, such as in the case of North Korea or current Syria? Possibly. Mexico already has a number of deaths comparable to a civil war from it's war against the drug cartels. 2) About 5 million American jobs are directly dependent on Mexico, and a conflict there would probably be an economic blow to the US. 3) Civil wars can lead to a massive influx of refugees from Central America. 4) Sending people to Mexico so that they would die in a civil war is horribly unethical and a blight on US reputation as well as relationships with Mexico at the very least. 5)At no point in time does he acknowledge that the US might be positively influencing Mexico with it's system of accepting immigrants, laying ground for a less violent and disruptive form of government change. As far as your criticism of the Media is concerned, you appear to be somewhat tone-deaf. A swedish person here told you that the whole thing is overblown, basically confirming the narrative of the MSM you just accused of lying, and I find that contradictory. All of your claims are unsourced, and that really made me think multiple times whether to even reply, since conspiracy theorists are notoriously difficult to convince or argue with, and you echo a lot of their arguments while contrasting them with mainstream media. To be fair he replied to that guy thanking him, seemingly earnestly for shedding light on the situation. That being said, sweden, romania and even mexico (as far as a revolution there is concerned anyway) are not exactly US politics so we should probably get back on topic. Apologies for contributing to the off-topicness myself! | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States44312 Posts
On January 27 2017 23:49 Acrofales wrote: It's been 16 years, so I can't really compare. Is Trump actually completely incompetent, or is this the same kind of stuff we got with "Bush or Chimp?", Bushisms and the relentless flow of people making fun of Dubya? Despite him being a fairly intelligent man according to more levelheaded opinions. That said, Dubya 2.0 would be a bad enough blow for the world. So I'm not sure it really makes much of a difference whether Trump is an absolute moron, or simply looks like one any time he opens his mouth/twitter account. Because at the end of the day, George W. Bush's policies cast the world into a ruinous recession (sure, it wasn't all him, but it was on his watch), and two disastrous wars that achieved absolutely nothing in the long run, regardless of whether you agree with his intentions or not. Personally, I would far prefer another GWB term over Trump. GWB might have been dumb, but he was a good, respectful human being, and didn't go out of his way to marginalize every possible group of Americans. Heck, GWB had to make a statement during 9/11, and he kept it together and noted that this was not an attack by all Muslims or mainstream Islam, but instead by radical terrorists, which was not only true but it was also aimed at minimizing anti-Muslim American sentiment, which was the right thing to do. Could you imagine Trump handling 9/11? He'd nuke the entire Middle East and lynch all Muslim Americans. And he'd probably Tweet pictures of that too. Not only is Trump dumb and unqualified (to the point where I've regrettably had to start tuning out the few delusional people who still think he's some sort of masterful genius who only fakes being an idiot), but he's also malevolent and ill-intentioned. He's actually a bad person, not just a bad president and bad representative of the American people. | ||
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NukeD
Croatia1612 Posts
On January 27 2017 23:30 mustaju wrote: @Nuked - since you asked for a dialogue, here's some input from my side in regards to your posts in the last 2 pages. The first argument from the gentleman with the pseudonym "rageholic", is a revolutionary view of politics (itself controversial), and terribly uncritical of his own perspective. Here's a list of justifications for criticism, which you may or may not disagree with. 1) Revolutionary movements are effective in opposition to something, but very rarely in being constructive. Would the revolution in Mexico spur ethnic conflict? How about a brand of terrorism? Would the result be worse, such as in the case of North Korea or current Syria? Possibly. Mexico already has a number of deaths comparable to a civil war from it's war against the drug cartels. 2) About 5 million American jobs are directly dependent on Mexico, and a conflict there would probably be an economic blow to the US. 3) Civil wars can lead to a massive influx of refugees from Central America. 4) Sending people to Mexico so that they would die in a civil war is horribly unethical and a blight on US reputation as well as relationships with Mexico at the very least. 5)At no point in time does he acknowledge that the US might be positively influencing Mexico with it's system of accepting immigrants, laying ground for a less violent and disruptive form of government change. As far as your criticism of the Media is concerned, you appear to be somewhat tone-deaf. A swedish person here told you that the whole thing is overblown, basically confirming the narrative of the MSM you just accused of lying, and I find that contradictory. All of your claims are unsourced, and that really made me think multiple times whether to even reply, since conspiracy theorists are notoriously difficult to convince or argue with, and you echo a lot of their arguments while contrasting them with mainstream media. I do agree with all your points regarding Mexico. Overblown is different from "fairy land" we are being reported on. A lot of people's concers (legitimate or not) are met with a wall of silence from the media, reluctant to even mention immigrants in news, which is causing a hysteria and rise of populism. They could at least acknowledge there are concerns and objectivelly inform us why those concerns are unfounded. Also, some conspiracies are real, but i dont know why you would bring that up since I dont think I presented any conspiracy theory here. | ||
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mustaju
Estonia4504 Posts
On January 27 2017 23:58 Liquid`Jinro wrote: To be fair he replied to that guy thanking him, seemingly earnestly for shedding light on the situation. That being said, sweden, romania and even mexico (as far as a revolution there is concerned anyway) are not exactly US politics so we should probably get back on topic. Apologies for contributing to the off-topicness myself! Valid counterpoint in regards to the thanking, but considering his posting history, I somewhat doubt a single point of anecdotal evidence would change his perspective on the quality of the current media. Still, perhaps the benefit of the doubt is justified. I'll readily apologize if that is the case. Discussing potential Mexican scenarios in regards to US policies would appear to be relevant, and there is no "hypothetical Mexican revolution" thread in which one could address the concerns raised. I maintain that leaving calls to revolution or violent overthrow unaddressed would be negative in a way that is worse than being offtopic. If my behaviour is disruptive, I will desist, of course. | ||
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Scarecrow
Korea (South)9172 Posts
Agreed, though the bashing of the mindless seems to have coincided with their leader becoming president. Going after his IQ is hardly a low blow when he doesn't give us anything else to go by. He literally speaks like he has dementia and the vocabulary of an elementary school kid. There is very little to indicate he'll be competent in office. After the interview he literally took the the interviewer to see a photograph he'd already had framed of the inauguration that showed the width of the crowd, like anyone gives a shit. His behavior is clearly some combination of: 1) He's compromised and is following Putin's propaganda playbook: his methods and those of his PR staff are strikingly similar to the principles of modern Russian propaganda 2) He's a delusional, ego-coddled man-child that truly believes his word is gospel. Some of his actions are more reminiscent of Kim Jong-un than any western leader. 3) He's deliberately distracting everyone with all this bullshit so he can achieve his real agenda of maintaining power and building his legacy. His constant attacks undermining faith in the media is thus key for him so he can create his own narrative (like having the greatest crowd ever and a landslide victory). "Who controls the past controls the future. Who controls the present controls the past." What happens after his 4 years are up is extremely worrying, considering how he has previously said he wouldn't accept* the result of the recent election. Now he has only barely taken power and he's already planted the (absurd) idea that voter fraud is rampant and 100% against him. | ||
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Mohdoo
United States15686 Posts
On January 28 2017 00:09 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: Personally, I would far prefer another GWB term over Trump. GWB might have been dumb, but he was a good, respectful human being, and didn't go out of his way to marginalize every possible group of Americans. Heck, GWB had to make a statement during 9/11, and he kept it together and noted that this was not an attack by all Muslims or mainstream Islam, but instead by radical terrorists, which was not only true but it was also aimed at minimizing anti-Muslim American sentiment, which was the right thing to do. Could you imagine Trump handling 9/11? He'd nuke the entire Middle East and lynch all Muslim Americans. And he'd probably Tweet pictures of that too. Not only is Trump dumb and unqualified (to the point where I've regrettably had to start tuning out the few delusional people who still think he's some sort of masterful genius who only fakes being an idiot), but he's also malevolent and ill-intentioned. He's actually a bad person, not just a bad president and bad representative of the American people. I think this is going to be the time when people start to realize that society isn't some divine, given, totally guaranteed, stable framework for humanity. Things have been so stable and decent that everyone started getting spoiled and wanting their dream list. Clinton, Bush1+2 etc kept the lights on and kept things moving mostly forward, on a macroscopic scale. I hope these next 4 years give people a wake up call and start to realize that boring isn't so bad. | ||
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Doodsmack
United States7224 Posts
On January 27 2017 20:44 Liquid`Jinro wrote: Did you read that interview though? It is literally the worst I've ever heard from him in terms of being incoherent. I'm not ignoring the possibility that it's on purpose because he doesn't want to answer but it's a really sad sight to behold either way. That's what happens when Trump answers substantive questions. If we were to read the debate transcripts, it wouldn't be pretty. And yet, people think he's doing genius things with Mexico, even after conducting diplomacy yesterday via text message (I mean tweet)... | ||
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{CC}StealthBlue
United States41117 Posts
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