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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. |
On January 27 2017 21:48 oneofthem wrote: unfortunately the trump-bernie revolution cannot be said to be free of foreign influence If you mean Russia then yes, yes it can.
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On January 27 2017 22:06 NukeD wrote:Show nested quote +On January 27 2017 21:48 xM(Z wrote:On January 27 2017 19:51 NukeD wrote:On January 27 2017 19:30 xM(Z wrote:something on the hacking https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/jan/27/us-russia-hacking-yevgeniy-nikulin-linkedin-dropbox Yevgeniy Nikulin faces extradition requests from both countries amid lingering disquiet over Moscow’s alleged interference in the US presidential election An alleged computer hacker being held in the Czech Republic is at the centre of an international legal tussle between the United States and Russia amid lingering disquiet over Moscow’s alleged interference in the recent US presidential election. Yevgeniy Nikulin, 29, faces extradition requests from both countries after being detained by Czech police on an Interpol arrest warrant issued by US authorities. Nikulin, a Russian citizen, was arrested in a restaurant in Prague on 5 October shortly after arriving in the city during a holiday with his girlfriend. Russian alleged hacker arrested in Prague over cyber-attacks in US Read more A federal court in Oakland, California, followed up with an indictment charging him with offences relating to the hacking of computer networks belonging to LinkedIn, Dropbox and Formspring and formally requesting his extradition to the US. He faces a maximum 30 years in prison and up to US$1m in fines if convicted on charges including computer intrusion, aggravated identity theft, conspiracy, damaging computers and trafficking in illegal access devices. There is no acknowledged link between Nikulin’s alleged offences and the hacking of Hillary Clinton’s presidential campaign, but his arrest came just three days before the Obama administration formally accused Russia of stealing emails from the Democratic National Committee and disclosing them through WikiLeaks. + Show Spoiler +Formspring, one of the sites he allegedly hacked, was the platform used for sexting by Anthony Weiner, the former New York mayoral candidate and husband of Huma Abedin, Clinton’s closest aide. The discovery of emails linked to Clinton on Weiner’s laptop damaged her campaign in its final two weeks after FBI director James Comey revealed their existence.
Meanwhile, Russia has responded to the American extradition request against Nikulin by tabling one of its own, demanding that he be returned to face allegations dating back to 2009 that he hacked another person’s bank account and stole 111,000 roubles (£1,465).
“He was never formally accused at that time. I think the reason is that he was recruited [by the Russian security services],” said Ondrej Kundra, political editor with the Czech weekly magazine Respekt, which has reported that the Russian services offer alleged offenders immunity from prosecution in exchange for collaboration.
“There’s intense lobbying in this case. People from the US and Russian side are talking to the Czech authorities because both really want Nikulin in their countries.”
One theory is Nikulin – even if not personally involved in the election hacking – may know other hackers who were.
Fuelling speculation is the existence of sealed US court documents, tabled six days after the original indictment against Nikulin on 20 October but whose contents have not been revealed.
“A number of documents were filed under seal, which means you cannot talk about them,” a US justice department spokesman told the Guardian.
Adam Kopecky, Nikulin’s Czech lawyer, said his client denied both the US and Russian charges and suggested he had become a political pawn. “My client and myself think it’s a political affair,” Kopecky said.
“Given the international situation, when one superpower accuses a citizen of the other of hacking their computers and then the other superpower accuses the same citizen of another crime, it’s kind of strange.”
Nikulin has suffered health problems since his arrest, his lawyer said.
Kopecky lodged an official complaint after prison authorities put his client under high-level supervision that included monitoring his communications with the lawyer.
“He is unhappy about being detained for a long time in a foreign country and about the accusations against him. He wants to return to Russia – but as a free man,” Kopecky said.
Czech television has reported that FBI agents are to travel to Prague to question Nikulin in the presence of Czech authorities. An FBI spokesman refused to confirm that but said the bureau was “aware of the situation”.
The case is currently in the hands of Prague’s chief prosecutor, who is expected to issue a decision on the twin extradition requests at the end of this month or early in February, a spokeswoman for the city’s municipal court said.
Russia’s embassy in Prague declined to comment but cited a previous foreign ministry statement in which a spokeswoman compared the affair to other incidents and called it “another proof that the US law enforcement agencies are hunting for Russian citizens across the world”.
A 32-year-old Russian computer programmer named only as Lisov was arrested by Spanish police at Barcelona airport this month on another US arrest warrant. Police in Spain said he was suspected of leading a financial fraud network and having designed and used software to steal account details from banks and individuals.
Another Russian citizen, Roman Valerevich Seleznev, was convicted last year of 38 hacking-related charges by a US court after he was arrested and extradited from Guam in 2014. Russia said Seleznev’s arrest amounted to “kidnapping”. hardly worth turning it into a pseudo cold war. @the mexican revolution thing: is there anyone who believes people could stage successful revolutions this day n'age without some serious backing from factions(internal or external) who provide financial support/guns or put pressure on <current leadership>?. i can't see how peaceful protests would change anything; or grabbing your pitchfork/axe and go kill local boyars for that matter. Considering you are from Romania, I immediatelly thought of Ceausescu. Obviusly military played a huge part there so to answer your question, I do not think the public would be able to pull it off by themselves without the white hats either in millitary, law enforcement or secret services. If it is an external force then I wouldnt call it a revolution. So, again, considering you are from Romania, is this not what happened in Romania and do you not imagine the same could happen in Mexico? to this day there isn't an official stance on what exactly happened but if it'll ever happen it'll resemble this http://by-julietbonnay.com/2014/03/how-to-start-a-revolution/ Over a thousand people died in Romania in December 1989. In Checkmate: Strategy of a Revolution, filmmaker Susanne Brandstätter shows how the Romanian revolution was strictly a managed operation, controlled from the outside – just as it was in the overthrow of democratically elected Mohammad Mossadegh in Iran in 1953. The strategies used ranged from anti-Ceaucescu propaganda to the organized training of civilians as armed revolutionaries. While Mossadegh was overthrown because he nationalised Iranian oil and sent the British packing, Ceaucescu was eliminated because he thwarted the unity of Europe and the definitive collapse of communism. By understanding what happened in Romania, the same strategy can easily be seen in Ukraine as well. ... Dominique Fonvielle, former secret agent with the French secret service, the DGSE (La Direction générale de la sécurité extérieure) spoke candidly in the documentary about the role of Western intelligence operatives in destabilizing the Romanian population. After the CIA-led overthrow of Mossadegh in Iran, which was a first for them, they developed a blueprint to topple other governments. The events that took place in Romania in 1989 and in Ukraine recently, have all the markings of this CIA blueprint. ... Robert Baer: For the covert operations you can train people. The special forces can train foreigners. The CIA can train them to use weapons as it was done in Cuba or in other places. All this paramilitary stuff is just a training.
Was this possible back then in Romania?
Dominique Fonvielle: Yes. It was carried out by the countries bordering Romania, from Hungary. We’ve mentioned the training camps in Hungary and Germany, sure, but at the time of the action, the people must be planted on site and you probably realise that you can’t smuggle in hundreds of people, but maybe a dozen.
One will force the current regime to react in a brutal manner so that the opposition would show itself and the masses start moving, and in this very moment the neighbouring country comes to assist them on humanitarian or political grounds. Then these allies make sure to restore the stability. They guarantee security and then finally allow the new government to take over the power with a head of state who is respected and regarded by the opposition as fit for the task. So its bassically what happened in Yugoslavia aswell. CIA had their fingers all over that. Ok so Romania is a poor example of what could and should happen in Mexico, but I am sure it is a fertile ground for a spontaneous revolution if Mexicans aren't able to "refuge" to other countries. i'd tell you to head to N-Korea(figuratively), then ask yourself if those people have it worse than the mexicans and if so, why aren't they protesting/creating revolutions?.
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Donald Trump ordered the National Park Service director to produce additional photographs of his inauguration crowds, believing the images “might prove that the media had lied” about the size of the audience, according to the Washington Post.
In a Saturday phone call, the president told Michael Reynolds, acting NPS director, that he wanted to see more photos because he thought they could show that the attendance at his Friday swearing-in ceremonies at the National Mall was above average, three sources with knowledge of the conversation told the Post.
Parks spokesman Tom Crosson told the Guardian in an email on Thursday night, “I can confirm the call happened ... but I’m not discussing the content of the call.”
The account from the Post comes as reports in the first week of Trump’s administration have repeatedly suggested that the president has been obsessed with the flurry of news stories that accurately pointed out that the inauguration had a noticeably smaller crowd than the equivalent event in 2009 when Barack Obama was sworn in.
In his first conference as press secretary for the White House, Sean Spicer angrily accused journalists of misreporting the crowd size in an effort “to minimize the enormous support that gathered on the National Mall”. Aerial photos showed that Trump had a smaller crowd than Obama, and the Women’s March protests on Saturday also clearly attracted a larger group.
In the phone call with Reynolds, who did not respond to the Guardian’s request for comment, Trump also expressed anger about the NPS Twitter account retweeting an image of side-by-side photographs comparing the 2009 and 2017 events, the Post reported.
In his first week, Trump also reportedly banned numerous federal agencies from “providing updates on social media or to reporters” with a de facto gag order that sparked widespread concern about censorship and government transparency.
The Department of the Interior’s social media privileges were also briefly suspended after the NPS retweet, which the agency later deleted before issuing a short apology.
Source
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Oh man, if I were the surgeon general, I would tweet something about Trump's abnormally small hands. Just because. Shutting down everybody's communication is dangerous, and I applaud everybody subverting that order.
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On January 27 2017 22:15 xM(Z wrote:Show nested quote +On January 27 2017 22:06 NukeD wrote:On January 27 2017 21:48 xM(Z wrote:On January 27 2017 19:51 NukeD wrote:On January 27 2017 19:30 xM(Z wrote:something on the hacking https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/jan/27/us-russia-hacking-yevgeniy-nikulin-linkedin-dropbox Yevgeniy Nikulin faces extradition requests from both countries amid lingering disquiet over Moscow’s alleged interference in the US presidential election An alleged computer hacker being held in the Czech Republic is at the centre of an international legal tussle between the United States and Russia amid lingering disquiet over Moscow’s alleged interference in the recent US presidential election. Yevgeniy Nikulin, 29, faces extradition requests from both countries after being detained by Czech police on an Interpol arrest warrant issued by US authorities. Nikulin, a Russian citizen, was arrested in a restaurant in Prague on 5 October shortly after arriving in the city during a holiday with his girlfriend. Russian alleged hacker arrested in Prague over cyber-attacks in US Read more A federal court in Oakland, California, followed up with an indictment charging him with offences relating to the hacking of computer networks belonging to LinkedIn, Dropbox and Formspring and formally requesting his extradition to the US. He faces a maximum 30 years in prison and up to US$1m in fines if convicted on charges including computer intrusion, aggravated identity theft, conspiracy, damaging computers and trafficking in illegal access devices. There is no acknowledged link between Nikulin’s alleged offences and the hacking of Hillary Clinton’s presidential campaign, but his arrest came just three days before the Obama administration formally accused Russia of stealing emails from the Democratic National Committee and disclosing them through WikiLeaks. + Show Spoiler +Formspring, one of the sites he allegedly hacked, was the platform used for sexting by Anthony Weiner, the former New York mayoral candidate and husband of Huma Abedin, Clinton’s closest aide. The discovery of emails linked to Clinton on Weiner’s laptop damaged her campaign in its final two weeks after FBI director James Comey revealed their existence.
Meanwhile, Russia has responded to the American extradition request against Nikulin by tabling one of its own, demanding that he be returned to face allegations dating back to 2009 that he hacked another person’s bank account and stole 111,000 roubles (£1,465).
“He was never formally accused at that time. I think the reason is that he was recruited [by the Russian security services],” said Ondrej Kundra, political editor with the Czech weekly magazine Respekt, which has reported that the Russian services offer alleged offenders immunity from prosecution in exchange for collaboration.
“There’s intense lobbying in this case. People from the US and Russian side are talking to the Czech authorities because both really want Nikulin in their countries.”
One theory is Nikulin – even if not personally involved in the election hacking – may know other hackers who were.
Fuelling speculation is the existence of sealed US court documents, tabled six days after the original indictment against Nikulin on 20 October but whose contents have not been revealed.
“A number of documents were filed under seal, which means you cannot talk about them,” a US justice department spokesman told the Guardian.
Adam Kopecky, Nikulin’s Czech lawyer, said his client denied both the US and Russian charges and suggested he had become a political pawn. “My client and myself think it’s a political affair,” Kopecky said.
“Given the international situation, when one superpower accuses a citizen of the other of hacking their computers and then the other superpower accuses the same citizen of another crime, it’s kind of strange.”
Nikulin has suffered health problems since his arrest, his lawyer said.
Kopecky lodged an official complaint after prison authorities put his client under high-level supervision that included monitoring his communications with the lawyer.
“He is unhappy about being detained for a long time in a foreign country and about the accusations against him. He wants to return to Russia – but as a free man,” Kopecky said.
Czech television has reported that FBI agents are to travel to Prague to question Nikulin in the presence of Czech authorities. An FBI spokesman refused to confirm that but said the bureau was “aware of the situation”.
The case is currently in the hands of Prague’s chief prosecutor, who is expected to issue a decision on the twin extradition requests at the end of this month or early in February, a spokeswoman for the city’s municipal court said.
Russia’s embassy in Prague declined to comment but cited a previous foreign ministry statement in which a spokeswoman compared the affair to other incidents and called it “another proof that the US law enforcement agencies are hunting for Russian citizens across the world”.
A 32-year-old Russian computer programmer named only as Lisov was arrested by Spanish police at Barcelona airport this month on another US arrest warrant. Police in Spain said he was suspected of leading a financial fraud network and having designed and used software to steal account details from banks and individuals.
Another Russian citizen, Roman Valerevich Seleznev, was convicted last year of 38 hacking-related charges by a US court after he was arrested and extradited from Guam in 2014. Russia said Seleznev’s arrest amounted to “kidnapping”. hardly worth turning it into a pseudo cold war. @the mexican revolution thing: is there anyone who believes people could stage successful revolutions this day n'age without some serious backing from factions(internal or external) who provide financial support/guns or put pressure on <current leadership>?. i can't see how peaceful protests would change anything; or grabbing your pitchfork/axe and go kill local boyars for that matter. Considering you are from Romania, I immediatelly thought of Ceausescu. Obviusly military played a huge part there so to answer your question, I do not think the public would be able to pull it off by themselves without the white hats either in millitary, law enforcement or secret services. If it is an external force then I wouldnt call it a revolution. So, again, considering you are from Romania, is this not what happened in Romania and do you not imagine the same could happen in Mexico? to this day there isn't an official stance on what exactly happened but if it'll ever happen it'll resemble this http://by-julietbonnay.com/2014/03/how-to-start-a-revolution/ Over a thousand people died in Romania in December 1989. In Checkmate: Strategy of a Revolution, filmmaker Susanne Brandstätter shows how the Romanian revolution was strictly a managed operation, controlled from the outside – just as it was in the overthrow of democratically elected Mohammad Mossadegh in Iran in 1953. The strategies used ranged from anti-Ceaucescu propaganda to the organized training of civilians as armed revolutionaries. While Mossadegh was overthrown because he nationalised Iranian oil and sent the British packing, Ceaucescu was eliminated because he thwarted the unity of Europe and the definitive collapse of communism. By understanding what happened in Romania, the same strategy can easily be seen in Ukraine as well. ... Dominique Fonvielle, former secret agent with the French secret service, the DGSE (La Direction générale de la sécurité extérieure) spoke candidly in the documentary about the role of Western intelligence operatives in destabilizing the Romanian population. After the CIA-led overthrow of Mossadegh in Iran, which was a first for them, they developed a blueprint to topple other governments. The events that took place in Romania in 1989 and in Ukraine recently, have all the markings of this CIA blueprint. ... Robert Baer: For the covert operations you can train people. The special forces can train foreigners. The CIA can train them to use weapons as it was done in Cuba or in other places. All this paramilitary stuff is just a training.
Was this possible back then in Romania?
Dominique Fonvielle: Yes. It was carried out by the countries bordering Romania, from Hungary. We’ve mentioned the training camps in Hungary and Germany, sure, but at the time of the action, the people must be planted on site and you probably realise that you can’t smuggle in hundreds of people, but maybe a dozen.
One will force the current regime to react in a brutal manner so that the opposition would show itself and the masses start moving, and in this very moment the neighbouring country comes to assist them on humanitarian or political grounds. Then these allies make sure to restore the stability. They guarantee security and then finally allow the new government to take over the power with a head of state who is respected and regarded by the opposition as fit for the task. So its bassically what happened in Yugoslavia aswell. CIA had their fingers all over that. Ok so Romania is a poor example of what could and should happen in Mexico, but I am sure it is a fertile ground for a spontaneous revolution if Mexicans aren't able to "refuge" to other countries. i'd tell you to head to N-Korea(figuratively), then ask yourself if those people have it worse than the mexicans and if so, why aren't they protesting/creating revolutions?. I dont know, im uneducated enough on North Korea to have a sensible answer other than speculation so I dont know how much the NK example is appliable to Mexico. Probably not very much I would assume.
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Sweden33719 Posts
On January 27 2017 21:14 NukeD wrote:Show nested quote +On January 27 2017 20:44 Liquid`Jinro wrote:On January 27 2017 18:22 NukeD wrote:On January 27 2017 18:06 Amui wrote:I think he just runs out of vocabulary, and as a result, he goes on and on about a topic because he can't adequately explain it. Basically, he's one stupid motherfucker who's commander in chief of the USA. Watching it from the outside is equal parts funny, sad, and scary. I remember seeing something where people did IQ tests of most previous presidents, and they were all very gifted people(even bush, as stupid as he may have sounded at times, is smarter than probably 90% of the people in any given university class). Trump unfortunately probably doesn't come close. The mindless bashing here is stagering. Did you read that interview though? It is literally the worst I've ever heard from him in terms of being incoherent. I'm not ignoring the possibility that it's on purpose because he doesn't want to answer but it's a really sad sight to behold either way. Yeah, I watched it. It was very crude. Still tho, going after his IQ is a low blow and reeks of indiscriminate and automated bashing of Trump regardless of his action and based primarilly on his image, which I might add, is always a sign of a low IQ individual. Media will do that to you tho if you absorb their information without a big reserve. EDIT: Obviously I am not accusing you of that, just to be clear. I've only been able to read the transcript as I'm not at home atm, but it was a bit jarring to read...
Anyway continuing on to your next post, given that it is the president's own words being discussed here I don't feel the source of them is that relevant as long as un-edited.
Though i guess the interviewer has a part in it too, but I dont feel he should come off this badly even with the least well intentioned reporter.
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Oh jeez. There is so many things wrong in this interview, I don't even know where to start.
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Sweden33719 Posts
On January 27 2017 21:40 NukeD wrote:Show nested quote +On January 27 2017 21:20 BigO wrote:On January 27 2017 18:16 NukeD wrote:Can you give us a comment on the situation in Sweden? You know, the elephant in the room noone is willing to bring up? OK since I live in Sweden I guess I can answer it for you. It is fine for the most part. The biggest rush of immigrants was stopped so now we are at normal levels. Now we just have the same issue as the US with a bunch of populists trying to fool the uneducated people into thinking there is an acctually crisis in our country (there isn't). Anyway, to get back on topic, since this is an US politics thread. The silencing of scientist have me worried alot, I do hope this is not a permanent thing or else things are really going in the wrong direction. Thank you! You see, this is all i want. An OBJECTIVE look into the issue. This is why I am so frustrated, MSM portrays everything as it is all rainbows and ponies over there (downright lying and cover uping what is going on) while on the other hand the alternative sources claim it is hell on earth. Why can't we have a reasonable discussion on media about these things? I guess they are affraid that by bringing up those issues it will cause a rise in nationalistic sentimnets in people but I am sure that by ignoring the issue completelly, they are doing exactly that. People are not unreasonable as they think and it is time they stop treating us as children. If there is a issue, or people are worried there might be an issue, bring it up, we can handle it and discuss it. I also believe this is a major part of the story why Trump got elected. I actually agree completely with this. It's a little disheartening watching the left continually set itself back in this way (and other ways not really relevant to this thread I guess).
After running across people randomly talking about sweden having turned into some kind of warzone online it was a little annoying to not be able to have somewhere I could go and just feel confident in getting an unbiased overview of the situation.
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
putin arresting that mole basically confirmed the validity of info.
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Estonia4504 Posts
@Nuked - since you asked for a dialogue, here's some input from my side in regards to your posts in the last 2 pages.
The first argument from the gentleman with the pseudonym "rageholic", is a revolutionary view of politics (itself controversial), and terribly uncritical of his own perspective. Here's a list of justifications for criticism, which you may or may not disagree with. 1) Revolutionary movements are effective in opposition to something, but very rarely in being constructive. Would the revolution in Mexico spur ethnic conflict? How about a brand of terrorism? Would the result be worse, such as in the case of North Korea or current Syria? Possibly. Mexico already has a number of deaths comparable to a civil war from it's war against the drug cartels. 2) About 5 million American jobs are directly dependent on Mexico, and a conflict there would probably be an economic blow to the US. 3) Civil wars can lead to a massive influx of refugees from Central America. 4) Sending people to Mexico so that they would die in a civil war is horribly unethical and a blight on US reputation as well as relationships with Mexico at the very least. 5)At no point in time does he acknowledge that the US might be positively influencing Mexico with it's system of accepting immigrants, laying ground for a less violent and disruptive form of government change.
As far as your criticism of the Media is concerned, you appear to be somewhat tone-deaf. A swedish person here told you that the whole thing is overblown, basically confirming the narrative of the MSM you just accused of lying, and I find that contradictory. All of your claims are unsourced, and that really made me think multiple times whether to even reply, since conspiracy theorists are notoriously difficult to convince or argue with, and you echo a lot of their arguments while contrasting them with mainstream media.
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I can't help but find the mind-bogglingly dumb mistakes like tweeting a photo of the inauguration with the wrong date and having no one in the administration able to spell Theresa May's name somewhat cathartic amongst all the discussions implying that Trump's presidency is some master gamesmanship plan.
One thing's for sure: the incompetence aspects leftover from the campaign (not registering delegates to national conventions/not applying in a timely manner to general election ballots/etc.) are here to stay.
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On January 27 2017 23:35 TheTenthDoc wrote:I can't help but find the mind-bogglingly dumb mistakes like tweeting a photo of the inauguration with the wrong date and having no one in the administration able to spell Theresa May's name somewhat cathartic amongst all the discussions implying that Trump's presidency is some master gamesmanship plan. One thing's for sure: the incompetence aspects leftover from the campaign (not registering delegates to national conventions/not applying in a timely manner to general election ballots/etc.) are here to stay. It's been 16 years, so I can't really compare. Is Trump actually completely incompetent, or is this the same kind of stuff we got with "Bush or Chimp?", Bushisms and the relentless flow of people making fun of Dubya? Despite him being a fairly intelligent man according to more levelheaded opinions.
That said, Dubya 2.0 would be a bad enough blow for the world. So I'm not sure it really makes much of a difference whether Trump is an absolute moron, or simply looks like one any time he opens his mouth/twitter account. Because at the end of the day, George W. Bush's policies cast the world into a ruinous recession (sure, it wasn't all him, but it was on his watch), and two disastrous wars that achieved absolutely nothing in the long run, regardless of whether you agree with his intentions or not.
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Sweden33719 Posts
On January 27 2017 23:30 mustaju wrote: @Nuked - since you asked for a dialogue, here's some input from my side in regards to your posts in the last 2 pages.
The first argument from the gentleman with the pseudonym "rageholic", is a revolutionary view of politics (itself controversial), and terribly uncritical of his own perspective. Here's a list of justifications for criticism, which you may or may not disagree with. 1) Revolutionary movements are effective in opposition to something, but very rarely in being constructive. Would the revolution in Mexico spur ethnic conflict? How about a brand of terrorism? Would the result be worse, such as in the case of North Korea or current Syria? Possibly. Mexico already has a number of deaths comparable to a civil war from it's war against the drug cartels. 2) About 5 million American jobs are directly dependent on Mexico, and a conflict there would probably be an economic blow to the US. 3) Civil wars can lead to a massive influx of refugees from Central America. 4) Sending people to Mexico so that they would die in a civil war is horribly unethical and a blight on US reputation as well as relationships with Mexico at the very least. 5)At no point in time does he acknowledge that the US might be positively influencing Mexico with it's system of accepting immigrants, laying ground for a less violent and disruptive form of government change.
As far as your criticism of the Media is concerned, you appear to be somewhat tone-deaf. A swedish person here told you that the whole thing is overblown, basically confirming the narrative of the MSM you just accused of lying, and I find that contradictory. All of your claims are unsourced, and that really made me think multiple times whether to even reply, since conspiracy theorists are notoriously difficult to convince or argue with, and you echo a lot of their arguments while contrasting them with mainstream media. To be fair he replied to that guy thanking him, seemingly earnestly for shedding light on the situation.
That being said, sweden, romania and even mexico (as far as a revolution there is concerned anyway) are not exactly US politics so we should probably get back on topic.
Apologies for contributing to the off-topicness myself!
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On January 27 2017 23:49 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On January 27 2017 23:35 TheTenthDoc wrote:I can't help but find the mind-bogglingly dumb mistakes like tweeting a photo of the inauguration with the wrong date and having no one in the administration able to spell Theresa May's name somewhat cathartic amongst all the discussions implying that Trump's presidency is some master gamesmanship plan. One thing's for sure: the incompetence aspects leftover from the campaign (not registering delegates to national conventions/not applying in a timely manner to general election ballots/etc.) are here to stay. It's been 16 years, so I can't really compare. Is Trump actually completely incompetent, or is this the same kind of stuff we got with "Bush or Chimp?", Bushisms and the relentless flow of people making fun of Dubya? Despite him being a fairly intelligent man according to more levelheaded opinions. That said, Dubya 2.0 would be a bad enough blow for the world. So I'm not sure it really makes much of a difference whether Trump is an absolute moron, or simply looks like one any time he opens his mouth/twitter account. Because at the end of the day, George W. Bush's policies cast the world into a ruinous recession (sure, it wasn't all him, but it was on his watch), and two disastrous wars that achieved absolutely nothing in the long run, regardless of whether you agree with his intentions or not.
Personally, I would far prefer another GWB term over Trump. GWB might have been dumb, but he was a good, respectful human being, and didn't go out of his way to marginalize every possible group of Americans. Heck, GWB had to make a statement during 9/11, and he kept it together and noted that this was not an attack by all Muslims or mainstream Islam, but instead by radical terrorists, which was not only true but it was also aimed at minimizing anti-Muslim American sentiment, which was the right thing to do. Could you imagine Trump handling 9/11? He'd nuke the entire Middle East and lynch all Muslim Americans. And he'd probably Tweet pictures of that too.
Not only is Trump dumb and unqualified (to the point where I've regrettably had to start tuning out the few delusional people who still think he's some sort of masterful genius who only fakes being an idiot), but he's also malevolent and ill-intentioned. He's actually a bad person, not just a bad president and bad representative of the American people.
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On January 27 2017 23:30 mustaju wrote: @Nuked - since you asked for a dialogue, here's some input from my side in regards to your posts in the last 2 pages.
The first argument from the gentleman with the pseudonym "rageholic", is a revolutionary view of politics (itself controversial), and terribly uncritical of his own perspective. Here's a list of justifications for criticism, which you may or may not disagree with. 1) Revolutionary movements are effective in opposition to something, but very rarely in being constructive. Would the revolution in Mexico spur ethnic conflict? How about a brand of terrorism? Would the result be worse, such as in the case of North Korea or current Syria? Possibly. Mexico already has a number of deaths comparable to a civil war from it's war against the drug cartels. 2) About 5 million American jobs are directly dependent on Mexico, and a conflict there would probably be an economic blow to the US. 3) Civil wars can lead to a massive influx of refugees from Central America. 4) Sending people to Mexico so that they would die in a civil war is horribly unethical and a blight on US reputation as well as relationships with Mexico at the very least. 5)At no point in time does he acknowledge that the US might be positively influencing Mexico with it's system of accepting immigrants, laying ground for a less violent and disruptive form of government change.
As far as your criticism of the Media is concerned, you appear to be somewhat tone-deaf. A swedish person here told you that the whole thing is overblown, basically confirming the narrative of the MSM you just accused of lying, and I find that contradictory. All of your claims are unsourced, and that really made me think multiple times whether to even reply, since conspiracy theorists are notoriously difficult to convince or argue with, and you echo a lot of their arguments while contrasting them with mainstream media. I do agree with all your points regarding Mexico.
Overblown is different from "fairy land" we are being reported on. A lot of people's concers (legitimate or not) are met with a wall of silence from the media, reluctant to even mention immigrants in news, which is causing a hysteria and rise of populism. They could at least acknowledge there are concerns and objectivelly inform us why those concerns are unfounded.
Also, some conspiracies are real, but i dont know why you would bring that up since I dont think I presented any conspiracy theory here.
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Estonia4504 Posts
On January 27 2017 23:58 Liquid`Jinro wrote:Show nested quote +On January 27 2017 23:30 mustaju wrote: @Nuked - since you asked for a dialogue, here's some input from my side in regards to your posts in the last 2 pages.
The first argument from the gentleman with the pseudonym "rageholic", is a revolutionary view of politics (itself controversial), and terribly uncritical of his own perspective. Here's a list of justifications for criticism, which you may or may not disagree with. 1) Revolutionary movements are effective in opposition to something, but very rarely in being constructive. Would the revolution in Mexico spur ethnic conflict? How about a brand of terrorism? Would the result be worse, such as in the case of North Korea or current Syria? Possibly. Mexico already has a number of deaths comparable to a civil war from it's war against the drug cartels. 2) About 5 million American jobs are directly dependent on Mexico, and a conflict there would probably be an economic blow to the US. 3) Civil wars can lead to a massive influx of refugees from Central America. 4) Sending people to Mexico so that they would die in a civil war is horribly unethical and a blight on US reputation as well as relationships with Mexico at the very least. 5)At no point in time does he acknowledge that the US might be positively influencing Mexico with it's system of accepting immigrants, laying ground for a less violent and disruptive form of government change.
As far as your criticism of the Media is concerned, you appear to be somewhat tone-deaf. A swedish person here told you that the whole thing is overblown, basically confirming the narrative of the MSM you just accused of lying, and I find that contradictory. All of your claims are unsourced, and that really made me think multiple times whether to even reply, since conspiracy theorists are notoriously difficult to convince or argue with, and you echo a lot of their arguments while contrasting them with mainstream media. To be fair he replied to that guy thanking him, seemingly earnestly for shedding light on the situation. That being said, sweden, romania and even mexico (as far as a revolution there is concerned anyway) are not exactly US politics so we should probably get back on topic. Apologies for contributing to the off-topicness myself! Valid counterpoint in regards to the thanking, but considering his posting history, I somewhat doubt a single point of anecdotal evidence would change his perspective on the quality of the current media. Still, perhaps the benefit of the doubt is justified. I'll readily apologize if that is the case.
Discussing potential Mexican scenarios in regards to US policies would appear to be relevant, and there is no "hypothetical Mexican revolution" thread in which one could address the concerns raised. I maintain that leaving calls to revolution or violent overthrow unaddressed would be negative in a way that is worse than being offtopic. If my behaviour is disruptive, I will desist, of course.
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On January 27 2017 18:22 NukeD wrote:Show nested quote +On January 27 2017 18:06 Amui wrote:I think he just runs out of vocabulary, and as a result, he goes on and on about a topic because he can't adequately explain it. Basically, he's one stupid motherfucker who's commander in chief of the USA. Watching it from the outside is equal parts funny, sad, and scary. I remember seeing something where people did IQ tests of most previous presidents, and they were all very gifted people(even bush, as stupid as he may have sounded at times, is smarter than probably 90% of the people in any given university class). Trump unfortunately probably doesn't come close. The mindless bashing here is stagering. Agreed, though the bashing of the mindless seems to have coincided with their leader becoming president. Going after his IQ is hardly a low blow when he doesn't give us anything else to go by. He literally speaks like he has dementia and the vocabulary of an elementary school kid. There is very little to indicate he'll be competent in office. After the interview he literally took the the interviewer to see a photograph he'd already had framed of the inauguration that showed the width of the crowd, like anyone gives a shit. His behavior is clearly some combination of:
1) He's compromised and is following Putin's propaganda playbook: his methods and those of his PR staff are strikingly similar to the principles of modern Russian propaganda 2) He's a delusional, ego-coddled man-child that truly believes his word is gospel. Some of his actions are more reminiscent of Kim Jong-un than any western leader. 3) He's deliberately distracting everyone with all this bullshit so he can achieve his real agenda of maintaining power and building his legacy. His constant attacks undermining faith in the media is thus key for him so he can create his own narrative (like having the greatest crowd ever and a landslide victory). "Who controls the past controls the future. Who controls the present controls the past."
What happens after his 4 years are up is extremely worrying, considering how he has previously said he wouldn't accept* the result of the recent election. Now he has only barely taken power and he's already planted the (absurd) idea that voter fraud is rampant and 100% against him.
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On January 28 2017 00:09 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On January 27 2017 23:49 Acrofales wrote:On January 27 2017 23:35 TheTenthDoc wrote:I can't help but find the mind-bogglingly dumb mistakes like tweeting a photo of the inauguration with the wrong date and having no one in the administration able to spell Theresa May's name somewhat cathartic amongst all the discussions implying that Trump's presidency is some master gamesmanship plan. One thing's for sure: the incompetence aspects leftover from the campaign (not registering delegates to national conventions/not applying in a timely manner to general election ballots/etc.) are here to stay. It's been 16 years, so I can't really compare. Is Trump actually completely incompetent, or is this the same kind of stuff we got with "Bush or Chimp?", Bushisms and the relentless flow of people making fun of Dubya? Despite him being a fairly intelligent man according to more levelheaded opinions. That said, Dubya 2.0 would be a bad enough blow for the world. So I'm not sure it really makes much of a difference whether Trump is an absolute moron, or simply looks like one any time he opens his mouth/twitter account. Because at the end of the day, George W. Bush's policies cast the world into a ruinous recession (sure, it wasn't all him, but it was on his watch), and two disastrous wars that achieved absolutely nothing in the long run, regardless of whether you agree with his intentions or not. Personally, I would far prefer another GWB term over Trump. GWB might have been dumb, but he was a good, respectful human being, and didn't go out of his way to marginalize every possible group of Americans. Heck, GWB had to make a statement during 9/11, and he kept it together and noted that this was not an attack by all Muslims or mainstream Islam, but instead by radical terrorists, which was not only true but it was also aimed at minimizing anti-Muslim American sentiment, which was the right thing to do. Could you imagine Trump handling 9/11? He'd nuke the entire Middle East and lynch all Muslim Americans. And he'd probably Tweet pictures of that too. Not only is Trump dumb and unqualified (to the point where I've regrettably had to start tuning out the few delusional people who still think he's some sort of masterful genius who only fakes being an idiot), but he's also malevolent and ill-intentioned. He's actually a bad person, not just a bad president and bad representative of the American people.
I think this is going to be the time when people start to realize that society isn't some divine, given, totally guaranteed, stable framework for humanity. Things have been so stable and decent that everyone started getting spoiled and wanting their dream list. Clinton, Bush1+2 etc kept the lights on and kept things moving mostly forward, on a macroscopic scale.
I hope these next 4 years give people a wake up call and start to realize that boring isn't so bad.
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On January 27 2017 20:44 Liquid`Jinro wrote:Show nested quote +On January 27 2017 18:22 NukeD wrote:On January 27 2017 18:06 Amui wrote:I think he just runs out of vocabulary, and as a result, he goes on and on about a topic because he can't adequately explain it. Basically, he's one stupid motherfucker who's commander in chief of the USA. Watching it from the outside is equal parts funny, sad, and scary. I remember seeing something where people did IQ tests of most previous presidents, and they were all very gifted people(even bush, as stupid as he may have sounded at times, is smarter than probably 90% of the people in any given university class). Trump unfortunately probably doesn't come close. The mindless bashing here is stagering. Did you read that interview though? It is literally the worst I've ever heard from him in terms of being incoherent. I'm not ignoring the possibility that it's on purpose because he doesn't want to answer but it's a really sad sight to behold either way.
That's what happens when Trump answers substantive questions. If we were to read the debate transcripts, it wouldn't be pretty.
And yet, people think he's doing genius things with Mexico, even after conducting diplomacy yesterday via text message (I mean tweet)...
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That's why some part of me honestly hopes that Trump Admin passes the Import tax etc. and realization kicks in for the American Public. Hopefully we don't get in any wars till 2020.
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