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Estonia4504 Posts
On January 28 2017 00:10 NukeD wrote:Show nested quote +On January 27 2017 23:30 mustaju wrote:
@Nuked - since you asked for a dialogue, here's some input from my side in regards to your posts in the last 2 pages.
The first argument from the gentleman with the pseudonym "rageholic", is a revolutionary view of politics (itself controversial), and terribly uncritical of his own perspective.
Here's a list of justifications for criticism, which you may or may not disagree with.
1) Revolutionary movements are effective in opposition to something, but very rarely in being constructive. Would the revolution in Mexico spur ethnic conflict? How about a brand of terrorism? Would the result be worse, such as in the case of North Korea or current Syria? Possibly. Mexico already has a number of deaths comparable to a civil war from it's war against the drug cartels.
2) About 5 million American jobs are directly dependent on Mexico, and a conflict there would probably be an economic blow to the US.
3) Civil wars can lead to a massive influx of refugees from Central America.
4) Sending people to Mexico so that they would die in a civil war is horribly unethical and a blight on US reputation as well as relationships with Mexico at the very least.
5)At no point in time does he acknowledge that the US might be positively influencing Mexico with it's system of accepting immigrants, laying ground for a less violent and disruptive form of government change.
As far as your criticism of the Media is concerned, you appear to be somewhat tone-deaf. A swedish person here told you that the whole thing is overblown, basically confirming the narrative of the MSM you just accused of lying, and I find that contradictory. All of your claims are unsourced, and that really made me think multiple times whether to even reply, since conspiracy theorists are notoriously difficult to convince or argue with, and you echo a lot of their arguments while contrasting them with mainstream media. I do agree with all your points regarding Mexico. Overblown is different from "fairy land" we are being reported on. A lot of people's concers (legitimate or not) are met with a wall of silence from the media, reluctant to even mention immigrants in news, which is causing a hysteria and rise of populism. They could at least acknowledge there are concerns and objectivelly inform us why those concerns are unfounded. Also, some conspiracies are real, but i dont know why you would bring that up since I dont think I presented any conspiracy theory here.
It's mainly about the way you approached the media and the CIA. I think of the MSM as reliable sources that do not cover up or lie, but rather distort the truth occasionally in a way that has far more complex causes that are related to the ethics of journalism and the unfortunate reality of modern communication negatively affecting the media market place. I also saw no conclusive evidence of CIA plots during my superficial fact checks. While some conspiracies are true, the vast majority is not, and debunking them is difficult for a multitude of reasons.
Thank you for the very civil reply, I have had far more negative experiences.
As for the Jill Stein comparison, there's notable differences. Stein based her opinion on the polls that had been conducted and the possible miscounting that does happen in all elections. It was a long-shot, but could in theory have overturned the election. Voter fraud is something entirely different, and to the degree of millions, rather than thousands, significantly harder to carry out.
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On January 28 2017 00:31 Scarecrow wrote:Show nested quote +On January 27 2017 18:22 NukeD wrote:On January 27 2017 18:06 Amui wrote:I think he just runs out of vocabulary, and as a result, he goes on and on about a topic because he can't adequately explain it. Basically, he's one stupid motherfucker who's commander in chief of the USA. Watching it from the outside is equal parts funny, sad, and scary. I remember seeing something where people did IQ tests of most previous presidents, and they were all very gifted people(even bush, as stupid as he may have sounded at times, is smarter than probably 90% of the people in any given university class). Trump unfortunately probably doesn't come close. The mindless bashing here is stagering. What happens after his 4 years are up is extremely worrying, considering how he has previously said he wouldn't except the result of the recent election. Now he has only barely taken power and he's already planted the (absurd) idea that voter fraud is rampant and 100% against him.
When Jill Stein says there is voter fraud it's legit, but when Trump says it is absurd. Right..
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Estonia4504 Posts
On January 28 2017 00:46 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
That's why some part of me honestly hopes that Trump Admin passes the Import tax etc. and realization kicks in for the American Public. Hopefully we don't get in any wars till 2020.
Unfortunately, starting a war when your approval ratings tank is a rather common tactic for authoritarians. His beefing up of the military will be heralded as a "smart" move and consolidate support in such a scenario.
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But the media does need a gut check to report actual news and give off this stupid crap such as the morning news which is basically infomercials nowadays.
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On January 28 2017 00:47 NukeD wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2017 00:31 Scarecrow wrote:On January 27 2017 18:22 NukeD wrote:On January 27 2017 18:06 Amui wrote:I think he just runs out of vocabulary, and as a result, he goes on and on about a topic because he can't adequately explain it. Basically, he's one stupid motherfucker who's commander in chief of the USA. Watching it from the outside is equal parts funny, sad, and scary. I remember seeing something where people did IQ tests of most previous presidents, and they were all very gifted people(even bush, as stupid as he may have sounded at times, is smarter than probably 90% of the people in any given university class). Trump unfortunately probably doesn't come close. The mindless bashing here is stagering. What happens after his 4 years are up is extremely worrying, considering how he has previously said he wouldn't except the result of the recent election. Now he has only barely taken power and he's already planted the (absurd) idea that voter fraud is rampant and 100% against him. When Jill Stein says there is voter fraud it's legit, but when Trump says it is absurd. Right..
Putting aside the issue of scale because people seem to believe everything that sounds vaguely the same is identical these days (3-4 million illegal votes entirely against Trump is not at all equivalent to what Stein was saying happened), I think a lot of people on the left immediately realized Stein's voter fraud campaign was a shrewd attempt to keep her name in the news and pointed out immediately there was 0 evidence it would cause a substantive change in outcome even if some votes were revealed to be fraudulent.
In fact, I don't think anyone in this thread actually thought the recount was anything other than that unless I missed someone.
Plus Trump's definition of voter fraud isn't even really voter fraud, and his own family and someone on his staff committed voter fraud based on his definition. Which is cute.
Add to this that Trump is basing his statements on absolutely nothing based in reality by the admission of his own team, and you get to absurdity.
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On January 28 2017 00:47 NukeD wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2017 00:31 Scarecrow wrote:On January 27 2017 18:22 NukeD wrote:On January 27 2017 18:06 Amui wrote:I think he just runs out of vocabulary, and as a result, he goes on and on about a topic because he can't adequately explain it. Basically, he's one stupid motherfucker who's commander in chief of the USA. Watching it from the outside is equal parts funny, sad, and scary. I remember seeing something where people did IQ tests of most previous presidents, and they were all very gifted people(even bush, as stupid as he may have sounded at times, is smarter than probably 90% of the people in any given university class). Trump unfortunately probably doesn't come close. The mindless bashing here is stagering. What happens after his 4 years are up is extremely worrying, considering how he has previously said he wouldn't except the result of the recent election. Now he has only barely taken power and he's already planted the (absurd) idea that voter fraud is rampant and 100% against him. When Jill Stein says there is voter fraud it's legit, but when Trump says it is absurd. Right..
Trump's lawyers emphatically denied Stein's claims of voter fraud in court. Why is that?
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Trump commenting on Madonna on Hannity:
Honestly, she's disgusting. I think [Madonna] hurt herself very badly. I think she hurt that whole cause.
I would like to see a spat with Trump and a female head of state where he calls her "disgusting" LOL. Maybe Merkel - she's old and doesn't look young, after all. We know the descriptors Trump uses.
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On January 28 2017 00:52 TheTenthDoc wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2017 00:47 NukeD wrote:On January 28 2017 00:31 Scarecrow wrote:On January 27 2017 18:22 NukeD wrote:On January 27 2017 18:06 Amui wrote:I think he just runs out of vocabulary, and as a result, he goes on and on about a topic because he can't adequately explain it. Basically, he's one stupid motherfucker who's commander in chief of the USA. Watching it from the outside is equal parts funny, sad, and scary. I remember seeing something where people did IQ tests of most previous presidents, and they were all very gifted people(even bush, as stupid as he may have sounded at times, is smarter than probably 90% of the people in any given university class). Trump unfortunately probably doesn't come close. The mindless bashing here is stagering. What happens after his 4 years are up is extremely worrying, considering how he has previously said he wouldn't except the result of the recent election. Now he has only barely taken power and he's already planted the (absurd) idea that voter fraud is rampant and 100% against him. When Jill Stein says there is voter fraud it's legit, but when Trump says it is absurd. Right.. Putting aside the issue of scale because people seem to believe everything that sounds vaguely the same is identical these days (3-4 million illegal votes entirely against Trump is not at all equivalent to what Stein was saying happened), I think a lot of people on the left immediately realized Stein's voter fraud campaign was a shrewd attempt to keep her name in the news and pointed out immediately there was 0 evidence it would cause a substantive change in outcome even if some votes were revealed to be fraudulent. In fact, I don't think anyone in this thread actually thought the recount was anything other than that unless I missed someone. Plus Trump's definition of voter fraud isn't even really voter fraud, and his own family and someone on his staff committed voter fraud based on his definition. Which is cute. Add to this that Trump is basing his statements on absolutely nothing based in reality by the admission of his own team, and you get to absurdity.
Even putting aside that a lot of people didn't believe the recount would uncover some widespread voter fraud... Stein at least didn't claim fraud before the recount, just the possibility that it may have occurred. Though maybe she did claim it more strongly in a tweet or something, Stein is always saying stupid stuff.
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On January 28 2017 00:39 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2017 00:09 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On January 27 2017 23:49 Acrofales wrote:On January 27 2017 23:35 TheTenthDoc wrote:I can't help but find the mind-bogglingly dumb mistakes like tweeting a photo of the inauguration with the wrong date and having no one in the administration able to spell Theresa May's name somewhat cathartic amongst all the discussions implying that Trump's presidency is some master gamesmanship plan. One thing's for sure: the incompetence aspects leftover from the campaign (not registering delegates to national conventions/not applying in a timely manner to general election ballots/etc.) are here to stay. It's been 16 years, so I can't really compare. Is Trump actually completely incompetent, or is this the same kind of stuff we got with "Bush or Chimp?", Bushisms and the relentless flow of people making fun of Dubya? Despite him being a fairly intelligent man according to more levelheaded opinions. That said, Dubya 2.0 would be a bad enough blow for the world. So I'm not sure it really makes much of a difference whether Trump is an absolute moron, or simply looks like one any time he opens his mouth/twitter account. Because at the end of the day, George W. Bush's policies cast the world into a ruinous recession (sure, it wasn't all him, but it was on his watch), and two disastrous wars that achieved absolutely nothing in the long run, regardless of whether you agree with his intentions or not. Personally, I would far prefer another GWB term over Trump. GWB might have been dumb, but he was a good, respectful human being, and didn't go out of his way to marginalize every possible group of Americans. Heck, GWB had to make a statement during 9/11, and he kept it together and noted that this was not an attack by all Muslims or mainstream Islam, but instead by radical terrorists, which was not only true but it was also aimed at minimizing anti-Muslim American sentiment, which was the right thing to do. Could you imagine Trump handling 9/11? He'd nuke the entire Middle East and lynch all Muslim Americans. And he'd probably Tweet pictures of that too. Not only is Trump dumb and unqualified (to the point where I've regrettably had to start tuning out the few delusional people who still think he's some sort of masterful genius who only fakes being an idiot), but he's also malevolent and ill-intentioned. He's actually a bad person, not just a bad president and bad representative of the American people. I think this is going to be the time when people start to realize that society isn't some divine, given, totally guaranteed, stable framework for humanity. Things have been so stable and decent that everyone started getting spoiled and wanting their dream list. Clinton, Bush1+2 etc kept the lights on and kept things moving mostly forward, on a macroscopic scale. I hope these next 4 years give people a wake up call and start to realize that boring isn't so bad.
I work with old people. Many of them fear the rise of populism and nationalism. Most of them want to keep it stable and boring. That is because they remember the horrors of the last time populism and nationalism got ahold of the world.
I am kind of afraid that when those older people that remembers WW2 and the things leading up to it are gone, there will be no one that can tell us exactly how bad it really was back then. We are already beginning to see the results of it now, since most of them are infact already dead or too sick/tired/old to speak up. It's no surprise that a guy like Trump can become POTUS now, since sadly we humans apparantly have a hard time learning from past experiences unless we have those experiences first hand.
Not saying there will be a WW3, but it feels like we are playing with fire here, eager to repeat the mistakes of history.
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I am genuinely wondering what the poeple in the US think of Trump being told to fuck off by the president of Mexico.
Wasnt he supposed to be a great negotiator? Why did the President bypass the diplomatic channels to adress Pena Nieto directly via Twitter?
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Remember how Trump got baited in the debates?
Turns out it doesn't end there...
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Hope the Russian oligarchy's notice of debt forgiveness is heading to Trump now  .
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UNITED NATIONS (Reuters) – New U.S. ambassador to the United Nations, Nikki Haley, pledged on Friday to overhaul the world body and warned U.S. allies that if they do not have Washington’s back then she is “taking names” and will respond.
Haley made brief remarks to the press as she arrived at U.N. headquarters in New York to present her credentials to U.N. chief Antonio Guterres.
“Our goal with the administration is to show value at the U.N. and the way that we’ll show value is to show our strength, show our voice, have the backs of our allies and make sure that our allies have our back as well,” Haley said.
“For those that don’t have our back, we’re taking names, we will make points to respond to that accordingly,” she added.
http://www.euronews.com/2017/01/27/new-us-un-envoy-warns-allies-have-our-back-or-well-respond-accordingly
Is Trump trying to piss off absolutely everybody in the world? I mean, what kind of entree is that? At least when Bush started polarizing the world into "with us or against us", two planes had just crashed into big buildings, and the world was reeling in response.
And I'm not saying there is anything wrong with the message, which seems quite reasonable: of course you pay attention to your allies and make sure they are doing things that aren't actively against your own interests. But it goes without saying that that happens. Actually saying this explicitly without context, is the tone of a bully. It's a complete faux pas.
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No,I don't remember but would appreciate one or two links where to read up.
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On January 28 2017 01:36 Kevin_Sorbo wrote:
I am genuinely wondering what the poeple in the US think of Trump being told to fuck off by the president of Mexico.
Wasnt he supposed to be a great negotiator? Why did the President bypass the diplomatic channels to adress Pena Nieto directly via Twitter?
I think it's great that a bully is being told to fuck off, and I hope every other country follows suit when Trump inevitably tries to strongarm them without any diplomacy or consideration for other people.
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
On January 28 2017 00:46 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
That's why some part of me honestly hopes that Trump Admin passes the Import tax etc. and realization kicks in for the American Public. Hopefully we don't get in any wars till 2020.
yes, let's raise prices on the poor by 20%.
it's just too much suffering for political points.
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Estonia4504 Posts
On January 28 2017 02:13 oneofthem wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2017 00:46 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
That's why some part of me honestly hopes that Trump Admin passes the Import tax etc. and realization kicks in for the American Public. Hopefully we don't get in any wars till 2020. yes, let's raise prices on the poor by 20%. what a progressive thing to do
If a change does not hurt the current Trump supporters financially, what exactly do you suggest that would make them reconsider? Genuine question, well aware that it might be construed as revanchism.
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On January 27 2017 21:14 NukeD wrote:Show nested quote +On January 27 2017 20:44 Liquid`Jinro wrote:On January 27 2017 18:22 NukeD wrote:On January 27 2017 18:06 Amui wrote:I think he just runs out of vocabulary, and as a result, he goes on and on about a topic because he can't adequately explain it. Basically, he's one stupid motherfucker who's commander in chief of the USA. Watching it from the outside is equal parts funny, sad, and scary. I remember seeing something where people did IQ tests of most previous presidents, and they were all very gifted people(even bush, as stupid as he may have sounded at times, is smarter than probably 90% of the people in any given university class). Trump unfortunately probably doesn't come close. The mindless bashing here is stagering. Did you read that interview though? It is literally the worst I've ever heard from him in terms of being incoherent. I'm not ignoring the possibility that it's on purpose because he doesn't want to answer but it's a really sad sight to behold either way. Yeah, I watched it. It was very crude. Still tho, going after his IQ is a low blow and reeks of indiscriminate and automated bashing of Trump regardless of his action and based primarilly on his image, which I might add, is always a sign of a low IQ individual. Media will do that to you tho if you absorb their information without a big reserve. EDIT: Obviously I am not accusing you of that, just to be clear.
I judge Trump based on primary sources (basically debates/speeches and transcripts), and once he goes off script he hasn't shown an ability to speak eloquently or with a sense of flow.
I also can write at a university level, so I'm basing my thoughts on the presidential candidate written answer thing that was posted a while back. Even with the ability to go back and edit, he didn't seem to be believe in persuasive writing or having a generally accepted outline of intro-content-conclusion. You can't learn to write better overnight, or even in a few months without daily practice(tweets don't count), so I assume he hasn't improved significantly since then. That problem is just excascerbated when he has to speak without the ability to prepare.
I know writing/speaking ability isn't a direct measure of intelligence, but his beliefs and behavior haven't given me any reason to change my thoughts. See the inauguration crowd size for example. It shouldn't even be an argument.
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On January 28 2017 02:13 oneofthem wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2017 00:46 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
That's why some part of me honestly hopes that Trump Admin passes the Import tax etc. and realization kicks in for the American Public. Hopefully we don't get in any wars till 2020. yes, let's raise prices on the poor by 20%. what a progressive thing to do
Obviously that would be awful, but I wonder if that's not one of the least awful things Trump could potentially do to disillusion some of his voters and wake them up. But then again, things like this happen and it makes me wonder if there's any way to cure stubbornness:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/monkey-cage/wp/2017/01/25/we-asked-people-which-inauguration-crowd-was-bigger-heres-what-they-said/?utm_term=.7dc19fb94a15
It's the epitome of "What kind of education, facts, and evidence can you provide to convince someone who doesn't value education, facts, or evidence?" When 15% of Trump supporters refuse to even acknowledge how to count things in a picture, where can the conversation go?
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EPT
