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I think they also really enjoy baiting Trump into acting like a total idiot/buffoon and try to pretzel himself out of it. Not everything is about optimal gamesmanship or governorship.
Then again I doubt Lewis anticipated Trump would lash out about his district without even googling it first.
Moreover, I think baiting Trump personally has negligable impact on any legislation passing, because it's unlikely Trump will even attempt to navigate the legislative warrens (his debate performances made me more supportive of mandatory one-semester civics courses in high schools, because I'm not sure he took one) and, while spiteful to a degree I'm not sure we've seen in a president for decades, quite possibly won't read bills to see who sponsored them before signing.
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On January 16 2017 04:04 TheTenthDoc wrote:
I think they also really enjoy baiting Trump into acting like a total idiot/buffoon and try to pretzel himself out of it. Not everything is about optimal gamesmanship or governorship.
Then again I doubt Lewis anticipated Trump would lash out about his district without even googling it first.
I'm still unconvinced that Trump even knows who Lewis is or what district he represents. He doesn't seem to be the type of person who cares about details like that.
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Though I don't really have a problem with Democrats and the Left expressing opposition to Trump, I do think that they are going to badly regret the manner that they are going about it. They have set the bar so low for Trump during his first term through their constant raising the specter of impeachment and questioning of his intelligence, temperament, legitimacy, and resolve that it is going to be very easy for Trump to surpass expectations over the next year or two. This, in turn, will leave Democrats dangerously exposed in the 2018 midterm in which they already will be defending a lot of tough seats.
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On January 16 2017 04:02 LegalLord wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2017 03:48 Thieving Magpie wrote:On January 16 2017 03:08 LegalLord wrote:On January 16 2017 02:57 zlefin wrote:On January 16 2017 02:50 LegalLord wrote:On January 16 2017 02:45 Biff The Understudy wrote:On January 16 2017 02:33 LegalLord wrote:
I do wonder what people hope to gain from keeping up random attacks on Trump. Will that make him not be president or something? Isn't the gain of exposing a president and possibly make him deeply unpopular obvious when you are in the opposition? If you want to get nothing done, maybe. He's not going anywhere for at least four years and his challengers would do well to acknowledge that, even if they don't like him. And he's already deeply unpopular. That isn't changing with more people getting into spats that make both sides look like idiots. what actual harm does it do to their goals? and what does it do to their reelection chances? I'm not saying it's strategically optimal necessarily, I'm just pondering reasons. if the base that elects you likes you getting into fights with the opposition, then they'll reeelect you for doing it, so it makes sense to do so. chewb -> likewise, it's not about hurting trump, i'ts about getting more support from your base by attacking an unpopular enemy. thus improving a politician's own reelection chances. They weren't elected to pick fights. They were elected to pass laws. Guess how much the president hating you does for that goal? They were elected to represent their constituents. Well I would hope said constituents expect more of them than just to complain about how bad Trump is. Did they run on a platform of "if elected, I will spend every day complaining about how bad the president is and I will get into piss fights with him" or one that talked about what laws they wanted to pass?
they can attack trump and do other things just fine.
also, that is what some republicans did platform-wise vs obama, and some of them did fine.
you have too much faith in the quality of voters. i thought you were more cynical. and read the book, it's a good read on the topic 
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On January 16 2017 04:16 xDaunt wrote:
Though I don't really have a problem with Democrats and the Left expressing opposition to Trump, I do think that they are going to badly regret the manner that they are going about it. They have set the bar so low for Trump during his first term through their constant raising the specter of impeachment and questioning of his intelligence, temperament, legitimacy, and resolve that it is going to be very easy for Trump to surpass expectations over the next year or two. This, in turn, will leave Democrats dangerously exposed in the 2018 midterm in which they already will be defending a lot of tough seats.
The best thing the DNC could do is be incredibly professional. They've been doing the opposite.
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On January 16 2017 04:22 Incognoto wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2017 04:16 xDaunt wrote:
Though I don't really have a problem with Democrats and the Left expressing opposition to Trump, I do think that they are going to badly regret the manner that they are going about it. They have set the bar so low for Trump during his first term through their constant raising the specter of impeachment and questioning of his intelligence, temperament, legitimacy, and resolve that it is going to be very easy for Trump to surpass expectations over the next year or two. This, in turn, will leave Democrats dangerously exposed in the 2018 midterm in which they already will be defending a lot of tough seats. The best thing the DNC could do is be incredibly professional. They've been doing the opposite.
that'd be good for the country, sure. but i don't think being incredibly professional is good for reelection chances. (ofc it'd depend on what exactly "being professional" entails).
politicians do what gets them elected and reelected.
if politician's aren't acting more "professional" it's because doing so has advantages, somehow.
while there may be individual exceptions of course, the long term pressures should trend toward that, and the long term pressures have been in force for a long time.
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This narrative that Democrats are supposed to act professional, reserved and demure, while Republicans act like rampaging children. Ironically, it's typically the Republicans that "advise" this.
Outrage is the best course of action right now, because it is thoroughly warranted. End of story. Wishy-washiness has always been the bane of the Democrat Party.
Trump has nominated CEOs and climate-change deniers to lead our government. He is marred in conflicts-of-interest and extremely shady foreign/Russian influences, incomparably so. The professional response to this is to scream. Loudly.
Rep. John Lewis has the right idea. Democrats should follow his lead. You don't need a degree in Marketing to see this. Vindicated outrage is plenty alluring, and there is going to be plenty of vindication to be had over the next 2 years.
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Why 2 years? Why not 4?
I also don't see how whining is warranted yet? It's not constructive, it doesn't make things better for Americans. Trump nominated people and that's ut so far. I'm all for outrage when bad things happen but being pre-emptive about it doesn't help anyone. It might even become a self fulfilling prophecy if Dems don't cooperate.
And aye, Repubicans weren't better in the past. That doesn't mean that today people shouldn't be doing their best.
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The other thing worth noting is that Trump achieved most (some might say all) of his political success by saying outrageous things off the cuff about Democrats and people in Washington, "playing nice" and "conventional wisdom" be damned.
No reason not to try it for yourself if you're a Dem.
I mean, sitting down and playing nice is exactly what Trump criticized people in Washington for doing, so it's not surprising the right wants to keep things that way and wants Dems to behave like the wimps they have painted them as.
On January 16 2017 06:25 Incognoto wrote:
Why 2 years? Why not 4?
I also don't see how whining is warranted yet? It's not constructive, it doesn't make things better for Americans. Trump nominated people and that's ut so far. I'm all for outrage when bad things happen but being pre-emptive about it doesn't help anyone. It might even become a self fulfilling prophecy if Dems don't cooperate.
And aye, Repubicans weren't better in the past. That doesn't mean that today people shouldn't be doing their best.
Some of the nominations are real, real bad from a Dem perspective. Nearly what appointing the head of Planned Parenthood the Surgeon General would be to R's.
Plus part of the problem is that he didn't really nominate people in a timely fashion...
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United Kingdom13775 Posts
On January 16 2017 06:25 Incognoto wrote:
Why 2 years? Why not 4?
Congress is elected every two years - the entire House of Representatives and a third of the Senate.
The president is there for four, but he's only guaranteed a full house of government for two.
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If Democrats would stop thinking about the "big picture" (which is usually a line of bullshit anyways, given by politicians who disgust me), and think about the immediate truths, the big picture would take care of itself. That is what this election should be teaching us.
Think of Iraq. If you were around, politically, at that time. From the opposition, there was this feigned "professionalism", like we saw from Hillary Clinton. "Why be outraged when the facts aren't all in? We don't know," yada, yada, yada. Claiming to be about the big-picture. We see it all the time from Democrats. It shows a lack of conviction -- because it is a lack of conviction. This "professionalism" is what we see from bullshit-artists like Cory Booker. It's why Hillary Clinton lost, and Barrack Obama served two terms -- that Iraq vote shows the difference between "professionalism" and honesty. Be consistent in your beliefs.
Do you believe that Trump has dangerous conflicts of interest? Do you think it's okay he be the first President to have these conflicts of interest? The answers to these questions should incur outrage. If you're an honest servant of the American public, then being outraged is, in fact, your job right now.
What we need is to stop pretending that the Clintons and Cory Bookers represent what's going to win American voters. People like Bernie Sanders and John Lewis have an immense attraction because they carry obvious conviction and honesty. That is what current elections are showing will win.
If only the Democrats had abandoned "professionalism" for honesty over the past few decades. If only they'd always do that. The country would be in a much better place. For a variety of reasons. I realize this is a pretty ranting post, even by my standard. A bit of venting.
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This idea that Democrats can successfully mimic Trump is hilarious. Trump is a unique talent. No one else can replicate his style. This lack of creativity from the Democrats is also readily apparent in their ham-handed attempts to turn Booker into the next Obama.
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On January 16 2017 06:54 xDaunt wrote:
This idea that Democrats can successfully mimic Trump is hilarious. Trump is a unique talent. No one else can replicate his style. This lack of creativity from the Democrats is also readily apparent in their ham-handed attempts to turn Booker into the next Obama.
Who, in or outside of this thread, is calling for anyone to mimic Donald Trump?
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On January 16 2017 06:55 Leporello wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2017 06:54 xDaunt wrote:
This idea that Democrats can successfully mimic Trump is hilarious. Trump is a unique talent. No one else can replicate his style. This lack of creativity from the Democrats is also readily apparent in their ham-handed attempts to turn Booker into the next Obama. Who, in or outside of this thread, is calling for anyone to mimic Donald Trump?
I was interpreting your calls for outrage to be acting like Trump in that both lower the level of discourse.
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On January 16 2017 06:45 Leporello wrote:
If Democrats would stop thinking about the "big picture" (which is usually a line of bullshit anyways, given by politicians who disgust me), and think about the immediate truths, the big picture would take care of itself. That is what this election should be teaching us.
Think of Iraq. If you were around, politically, at that time. From the opposition, there was this feigned "professionalism", like we saw from Hillary Clinton. "Why be outraged when the facts aren't all in? We don't know," yada, yada, yada. Claiming to be about the big-picture. We see it all the time from Democrats. It shows a lack of conviction -- because it is a lack of conviction. This "professionalism" is what we see from bullshit-artists like Cory Booker. It's why Hillary Clinton lost, and Barrack Obama served two terms -- that Iraq vote shows the difference between "professionalism" and honesty. Be consistent in your beliefs.
Do you believe that Trump has dangerous conflicts of interest? Do you think it's okay he be the first President to have these conflicts of interest? The answers to these questions should incur outrage. If you're an honest servant of the American public, then being outraged is, in fact, your job right now.
What we need is to stop pretending that the Clintons and Cory Bookers represent what's going to win American voters. People like Bernie Sanders and John Lewis have an immense attraction because they carry obvious conviction and honesty. That is what current elections are showing will win.
If only the Democrats had abandoned "professionalism" for honesty over the past few decades. If only they'd always do that. The country would be in a much better place. For a variety of reasons. I realize this is a pretty ranting post, even by my standard. A bit of venting.
there's a difference between apparent honesty/conviction and actual honesty/conviction. politicians can get very good at faking honesty if that's what's called for.
just because something wins elections doesn't mean it's good either. quite a number of things win elections but are bad.
having deeply felt convictions can in fact be very bad, if you're convinced that something false is true. there's plenty of examples of that past century, and some more recent.
I see no reason to conclude that switching from "professionalism" to "honesty" (quotes because there's a fair bit of uncertainty in how they're defining those terms) would've made the country a much better place.
I like professionalism, at least in the ways I'm using the term, I want people who work for me to know their subject very well, and to be trained in it. I like a surgeon with years of training and practice, who really knows medicine and the particulars of their specialty.
many things of "professional" behavior are the way they are because it leads to better outcomes when people follow them.
but keeping societies happy is a strange and complex thing, so we have what we have instead.
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On January 16 2017 06:54 xDaunt wrote:
This idea that Democrats can successfully mimic Trump is hilarious. Trump is a unique talent. No one else can replicate his style. This lack of creativity from the Democrats is also readily apparent in their ham-handed attempts to turn Booker into the next Obama.
You don't replicate his style, you replicate the "say outrageous things to grab media attention." I can guarantee you Lewis gained a ton of influence with younger Dems by saying what he did, and Bernie's constant reiteration of how he will oppose Trump and calling out what he sees as his failings are doing a lot for keeping him in the headlines.
And again, this is in general a "selfish" attitude (I don't think it's really cynically selfish in most cases, per se). But that "selfish" attitude is literally what people praised about Trump, and exactly what people are praising about others. Just not in the conservative echo chambers.
But better moan about how the Democrats aren't being PC and giving Trump a safe space when he called them wimps. It would be convenient if they all just stayed in a corner and wept for years, though.
The kid gloves will come off. Period.
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United Kingdom13775 Posts
If you want to "be like Bernie Sanders" then you should take his lead and seek to work with Trump where there is common ground.
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On January 16 2017 07:14 TheTenthDoc wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2017 06:54 xDaunt wrote:
This idea that Democrats can successfully mimic Trump is hilarious. Trump is a unique talent. No one else can replicate his style. This lack of creativity from the Democrats is also readily apparent in their ham-handed attempts to turn Booker into the next Obama. You don't replicate his style, you replicate the " say outrageous things to grab media attention." I can guarantee you Lewis gained a ton of influence with younger Dems by saying what he did, and Bernie's constant reiteration of how he will oppose Trump and calling out what he sees as his failings are doing a lot for keeping him in the headlines. And again, this is in general a "selfish" attitude. But that "selfish" attitude is literally what people praised about Trump, and exactly what people are praising about others. Just not in the conservative echo chambers. It would be convenient if they all just stayed in a corner and wept for years, though.
Yeah, that's the better way of putting it. I still think that it takes a special kind of politician to do it.
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United Kingdom13775 Posts
On January 16 2017 06:54 xDaunt wrote:
This idea that Democrats can successfully mimic Trump is hilarious. Trump is a unique talent. No one else can replicate his style. This lack of creativity from the Democrats is also readily apparent in their ham-handed attempts to turn Booker into the next Obama.
They tried with Julian Castro and it sucked because Obama is a once-in-a-lifetime talent of toeing the status quo and making people believe it's going well. They're trying with Cory Booker and I don't see it working because he simply doesn't have the chops to make it work. Hell, they even tried with Michelle Obama who absolutely isn't presidential material in the slightest.
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On January 16 2017 07:17 LegalLord wrote:
If you want to "be like Bernie Sanders" then you should take his lead and seek to work with Trump where there is common ground.
they're going to do that. I don't think anyone's said they aren't going to.
they fight where they disagree, and work together where they agree.
they'll also oppose him on issues where there isn't common ground, or where there isn't an agreement to be reached.
plus some random potshots.
you can attack people alot and still work with them on occasion. happens all the time.
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EPT
