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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
Biff The Understudy
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
France8222 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-01-03 13:45:28
January 03 2017 13:44 GMT
#129861
On January 03 2017 22:41 LegalLord wrote:
I see no desire to have a real conversation from your end so I'm going to just decline to discuss this issue with you further. I will simply note that accusing someone of strawmanning while strawmanning extremely hard yourself is quite rich. I'm not one who has ever lacked criticism for the Republicans or Trump. Quite the opposite in fact.

Right. Then it's quite easy to say: "that's a very worrying move and a horrible decision" instead of putting half the blame on the people who created the comittee in the first place.

It's really not that hard.

And the "i see no desire to have a serious conversation" when you answer a horrible deed by republicans with "congress is shitty anyway" is also a bit rich, since we are at it.

I made my point, you made yours we can agree on that.
The fellow who is out to burn things up is the counterpart of the fool who thinks he can save the world. The world needs neither to be burned up nor to be saved. The world is, we are. Transients, if we buck it; here to stay if we accept it. ~H.Miller
BigFan
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
TLADT24920 Posts
January 03 2017 13:45 GMT
#129862
ok, guys, enough with the straw-manning and hyperboles. Get the discussion back on track. If you both don't think you'll be able to have a nice discussion with each other, then don't discuss the issue with each other any further.
Former BW EiC"Watch Bakemonogatari or I will kill you." -Toad, April 18th, 2017
ChristianS
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States3304 Posts
January 03 2017 13:52 GMT
#129863
@GH: Hmm, didn't know about the fundraising thing. Even now, I'm not quite sure what to make of it. Saying it would be "illegal" in a general election is a bit sensational - the government just wouldn't set up the fundraising aparatus in the first place in a general election. I also don't know that anybody would have been indicted over the debate question, which is not to say I'm okay with what happened there - i just think the impact was small enough that casting doubt on the entire primary and its conclusion because of it seems a bit extreme. I also have no love of either superdelegates or the electoral college, and wish everybody would just use a popular vote, but she didn't win on superdelegates, she won because more people voted for her.

I've no more desire to relitigate voting irregularities in the primary process than you do, but if the implication is that votes were stolen, I'd need proof to call the primary unfair because of voter fraud. That leaves me with the conclusion that the primary process is an admittedly flawed mechanism by which Democrats can choose who they want to represent their party. Because of its flaws, that process could sometimes get the people's will wrong, but this does not appear to be one of those times. I'd love it if the DNC announced tomorrow that superdelegates were abolished and no party money will be used for primary candidates, but instead will be saved for the general - but in the system we have, she still won because at the end of the day, more people voted for her.
"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." -Robert J. Hanlon
LightSpectra
Profile Blog Joined October 2011
United States3520 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-01-03 15:34:33
January 03 2017 15:28 GMT
#129864
On January 03 2017 19:09 Penev wrote:
Please wake up Americans

www.theguardian.com


I see millions of problems in the USA, I'm just overwhelmed by what to do about them.

I cannot name a single US politician that is neither corrupt nor essentially a fascist. I agonize every single election over who I should vote for. Both the Republicans and the Democrats are firmly entrenched in Wall Street, firmly in favor of invading/bombing assorted countries every year or two, firmly in favor of mass Orwellian unchecked surveillance, firmly in favor of making laws more complicated to favor the rich and lawyers at the expense of everybody else, etc. There are a very tiny brave few who fight against some/most of these like Rand Paul and Ron Wyden but they accomplish little in the long run.

Grassroots reform of the main two parties is totally hopeless. The Democrats have made it clear that anybody who is not a pro-abortion fanatic is not welcome in their ranks. They care more about the latest social justice fad than essential liberties. The Republicans also consider anybody who is not a social Darwinist on economic policies to be a communist; laissez-faire capitalism has essentially become a religion to them, albeit with a plastic face of Christianity. (That, I consider terribly unfortunate. I am a devout Christian myself and I wonder how many people have turned away from Christianity not because of faithlessness but because of the GOP.)

The major "third parties" (Libertarian and Green) are both full of crackpots and it seems like they'd be even worse for America than the corporate-bought politicians.

I myself support a small third party called the American Solidarity Party, but I'm not holding my breath for anything to come of it. The last time a third party mattered was 150 years ago, when the Free Soil people gobbled up the Whig party. Why don't third parties succeed? A combination of first-past-the-post election ballots, an exclusively bipartisan media (don't let the arguments over liberal or conservative bias fool you, their interest is to keep the spotlight on the two of them), and an American ingrained cultural stereotype that independents/third parties are weirdos. (Yes, I'm aware I mentioned just above that the Libertarians and Greens are crackpots, but it's actually true for them. Also, I don't see eye-to-eye with either ideologically so it makes no difference.)

So working inside the democratic process is pointless. Protests and local activism also never seem to accomplish anything, and violence is out of the question. So what should I do? Serious question, because I am eager for change but exhausted and demotivated.
"don't try to pull a LightSpectra-Trumper"
TL+ Member
zlefin
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
United States7689 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-01-03 15:38:15
January 03 2017 15:37 GMT
#129865
On January 04 2017 00:28 LightSpectra wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 03 2017 19:09 Penev wrote:
Please wake up Americans

www.theguardian.com


I see millions of problems in the USA, I'm just overwhelmed by what to do about them.

I cannot name a single US politician that is neither corrupt nor essentially a fascist. I agonize every single election over who I should vote for. Both the Republicans and the Democrats are firmly entrenched in Wall Street, firmly in favor of invading/bombing assorted countries every year or two, firmly in favor of mass Orwellian unchecked surveillance, firmly in favor of making laws more complicated to favor the rich and lawyers at the expense of everybody else, etc. There are a very tiny brave few who fight against some/most of these like Rand Paul and Ron Wyden but they accomplish little in the long run.

Grassroots reform of the main two parties is totally hopeless. The Democrats have made it clear that anybody who is not a pro-abortion fanatic is not welcome in their ranks. They care more about the latest social justice fad than essential liberties. The Republicans also consider anybody who is not a social Darwinist on economic policies to be a communist; laissez-faire capitalism has essentially become a religion to them, albeit with a plastic face of Christianity. (That, I consider terribly unfortunate. I am a devout Christian myself and I wonder how many people have turned away from Christianity not because of faithlessness but because of the GOP.)

The "third parties" (Libertarian and Green) are both full of crackpots and it seems like they'd be even worse for America than the corporate-bought politicians.

I myself support a third party called the American Solidarity Party, but I'm not holding my breath for anything to come of it.

even if both candidates are bad, vote for the least bad one. over time that does have some effect.

also push for reforms to candidate selection processes to try to produce a better quality of candidates, though most of those are difficult to do constitutional reforms. some things are best change not by getting different people, but by using a different process, which requires structural changes.

did you like any of the presidential candidates in any of the primaries?
if you could select any people you like for the offices who would you want?
it's always possible to start new parties and put up candidates of your own.

i've started reading the book democracy for realists, it has some interesting stuff, haven't finished it yet.
https://www.amazon.com/Democracy-Realists-Elections-Responsive-Government/dp/0691169446
Great read: http://shorensteincenter.org/news-coverage-2016-general-election/ great book on democracy: http://press.princeton.edu/titles/10671.html zlefin is grumpier due to long term illness. Ignoring some users.
mustaju
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Estonia4505 Posts
January 03 2017 15:42 GMT
#129866
On January 03 2017 21:45 Penev wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 03 2017 19:18 mustaju wrote:
On January 03 2017 19:09 Penev wrote:
Please wake up Americans

www.theguardian.com


Disregarding the sensationalism of the post (wake up, really?), the removal of an independent ethics committee should make people very worried, if for now other reason, then because it will certainly not help with uniting the people behind their current government. Why are Republicans doubling down right now?

I shouldn't have posted my feelings so directly this morning, you're right. But I also see a lot of people trying to normalize the situation which I don't like, the current political situation isn't normal or ok at all.

Anyway, I know a lot of Americans are awake I just hope that the ones that are not will be asap.


You are right that the situation is being normalized (from the perspective of a European with lots of incentive to be skeptical of Trump, at least), and one should stand against it, I am also saying that tone matters, however. If one does want to remove Trump's, as far as I am concerned, negative influence, a dialogue and convincing is needed. You are by far not the worst offender of course, and I am sorry if you felt singled out.
WriterBrows somewhat high. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ndFysO2JunE
TanGeng
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
Sanya12364 Posts
January 03 2017 15:56 GMT
#129867
On January 04 2017 00:37 zlefin wrote:
even if both candidates are bad, vote for the least bad one. over time that does have some effect.

It can be worse than not voting at all as it gives spectre of legitimacy and provides basis for ruling mandate.
Moderator我们是个踏实的赞助商模式俱乐部
farvacola
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States18876 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-01-03 15:57:57
January 03 2017 15:57 GMT
#129868
I found this article fairly persuasive concerning what effective anti-Trump dialogue should look like. In short, focus on policies and the substance of what is happening, not on words and people.
"when the Dead Kennedys found out they had skinhead fans, they literally wrote a song titled 'Nazi Punks Fuck Off'"
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
January 03 2017 16:03 GMT
#129869


"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
Doodsmack
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States7224 Posts
January 03 2017 16:15 GMT
#129870
On January 03 2017 21:20 LegalLord wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 03 2017 19:09 Penev wrote:
Please wake up Americans

www.theguardian.com

Wake up to what exactly?

That Congress suck ass? We are aware.

That Congressional Republicans are terrible? We are aware.

That we should have put Congressional Democrats in charge instead? They're really not much better.

Truth is that the political climate sucks and there is no easy fix. It's not just an American problem.


Do you think it's okay for that office to be gutted?
zlefin
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
United States7689 Posts
January 03 2017 16:17 GMT
#129871
On January 04 2017 00:57 farvacola wrote:
I found this article fairly persuasive concerning what effective anti-Trump dialogue should look like. In short, focus on policies and the substance of what is happening, not on words and people.

certainly true, and I imagine it's in fact well known in the journalistic world.
the rela problem is much simpler: covering trump generates money; and sensationalist coverage generates money.
thoughtful policy analysis and focusing on the substance of things does not generate as much money.

getting journalists to act against their economic interest would require either a great source of pressure (which still wouldn't work well), or something that changes what their interests are.
Great read: http://shorensteincenter.org/news-coverage-2016-general-election/ great book on democracy: http://press.princeton.edu/titles/10671.html zlefin is grumpier due to long term illness. Ignoring some users.
Gorsameth
Profile Joined April 2010
Netherlands22702 Posts
January 03 2017 16:19 GMT
#129872
On January 04 2017 01:17 zlefin wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 04 2017 00:57 farvacola wrote:
I found this article fairly persuasive concerning what effective anti-Trump dialogue should look like. In short, focus on policies and the substance of what is happening, not on words and people.

certainly true, and I imagine it's in fact well known in the journalistic world.
the rela problem is much simpler: covering trump generates money; and sensationalist coverage generates money.
thoughtful policy analysis and focusing on the substance of things does not generate as much money.

getting journalists to act against their economic interest would require either a great source of pressure (which still wouldn't work well), or something that changes what their interests are.

Also, politics and substance is boring and most people won't give a shit unless it directly impacts their lives in the immediate future.
It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death
LegalLord
Profile Blog Joined April 2013
United States13779 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-01-03 16:47:06
January 03 2017 16:41 GMT
#129873
On January 04 2017 01:15 Doodsmack wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 03 2017 21:20 LegalLord wrote:
On January 03 2017 19:09 Penev wrote:
Please wake up Americans

www.theguardian.com

Wake up to what exactly?

That Congress suck ass? We are aware.

That Congressional Republicans are terrible? We are aware.

That we should have put Congressional Democrats in charge instead? They're really not much better.

Truth is that the political climate sucks and there is no easy fix. It's not just an American problem.


Do you think it's okay for that office to be gutted?

My first reaction would be, "no, it isn't." I don't know much about the office and whether its work is good or if it's a vanity project disguised as an ethics body, but given that this seems to be done discretely I lean towards the former.

I do, however, see it as an inevitable consequence of nominating Hillary Clinton for president and thinking that the alternative is so unspeakably horrible that people could be coerced into going along with it. That was a gamble that failed and to be fair we didn't expect it to, but nevertheless the opening was created and exploited.
History will sooner or later sweep the European Union away without mercy.
Nevuk
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States16280 Posts
January 03 2017 16:53 GMT
#129874
I thought the OCE was originally created because so many congress people were getting sent to jail. Gutting it probably means that there will be some funny federal cases in a few years. Basically I have no idea why the house GOP wants to get rid of it, it benefits no one in congress if several of them wind up going down in scandals.
Euphorbus
Profile Joined December 2016
92 Posts
January 03 2017 16:54 GMT
#129875
Maybe to prevent going to jail in the near future?
zlefin
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
United States7689 Posts
January 03 2017 16:58 GMT
#129876
On January 04 2017 01:41 LegalLord wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 04 2017 01:15 Doodsmack wrote:
On January 03 2017 21:20 LegalLord wrote:
On January 03 2017 19:09 Penev wrote:
Please wake up Americans

www.theguardian.com

Wake up to what exactly?

That Congress suck ass? We are aware.

That Congressional Republicans are terrible? We are aware.

That we should have put Congressional Democrats in charge instead? They're really not much better.

Truth is that the political climate sucks and there is no easy fix. It's not just an American problem.


Do you think it's okay for that office to be gutted?

My first reaction would be, "no, it isn't." I don't know much about the office and whether its work is good or if it's a vanity project disguised as an ethics body, but given that this seems to be done discretely I lean towards the former.

I do, however, see it as an inevitable consequence of nominating Hillary Clinton for president and thinking that the alternative is so unspeakably horrible that people could be coerced into going along with it. That was a gamble that failed and to be fair we didn't expect it to, but nevertheless the opening was created and exploited.

that second paragraph is just nonsense.
yes, there are issues with hillary; but it's hardly INEVITABLE that nominating hillary leads to the republicans gutting an ethics office. those two things aren't so interrelated for that to be the case at all.
I get thta you hate hillary a lot, and that you're angry over this whole mess, and that hillary has some serious flaws. but PLEASE stop shoehorning hillary hate into EVERYTHING. just put an anti-hillary statement in your sig or something.
Great read: http://shorensteincenter.org/news-coverage-2016-general-election/ great book on democracy: http://press.princeton.edu/titles/10671.html zlefin is grumpier due to long term illness. Ignoring some users.
Doodsmack
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States7224 Posts
January 03 2017 17:27 GMT
#129877
Better fulfill this promise, Donny.

Wegandi
Profile Joined March 2011
United States2455 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-01-03 17:42:19
January 03 2017 17:41 GMT
#129878
On January 03 2017 21:26 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
Show nested quote +
Among the first steps being floated by the incoming Trump administration is a 5 to 10 percent tariff on imports, implemented through an executive order. It’s the sort of shoot-first, ask-questions-later action that President-elect Donald J. Trump promised during the campaign. It’s also unconstitutional.

That’s because the path to imposing tariffs — along with taxes and other revenue-generating measures — clearly begins with Congress, and in particular the House, through the Origination Clause. When presidents have raised (or lowered) tariffs in the past, they have tended to do so using explicit, if sometimes wide-ranging, authority from Congress.

The founders thought about this issue a lot: After all, taxes, as every grade schooler knows, fueled the colonies’ push for independence. So they wrote the Constitution, and its Origination Clause, to give the taxing power to the part of government that is closest to the people, thereby protecting against arbitrary and onerous taxation.

Tariffs were a big deal in the early days of the Republic. The framers believed that a tax on imports would be the country’s main source of revenue, and for a while, they were right: For much of the 19th century, tariffs dwarfed other revenue measures in contributing to the federal coffers, with income taxes not rising in importance until the 20th century. Throughout this period and even today, the House has closely guarded its turf over tariffs, and the Senate has uniformly acquiesced in this arrangement.

So strong is the connection between tariffs and the Origination Clause that early treaties involving tariffs were implemented with legislation that began in the House — even though Article II of the Constitution gives the president the power to make treaties (with advice and consent of the Senate).

True, tariffs are no longer used to raise money, but to protect domestic industries, and to punish foreign ones. But they unquestionably still produce revenue. And while tariffs on imports are aimed at foreigners, they affect domestic industries that use or compete with imports; they can also have an enormous impact on the overall economy by raising consumer prices. Allowing the executive to circumvent the House to enact otherwise unfavorable tax policies that affect Americans is what the clause is designed to avoid — that those furthest removed from the people have the ability to tax them.

While there isn’t an enormous body of Supreme Court case law on the Origination Clause, what little there is supports the understanding that the clause would cover tariffs. The court’s test seems to set a pretty low bar: While paying lip service to an inquiry of the law’s purpose, the court has instead looked at whether a measure funds the general treasury rather than a specific program — a hurdle that tariffs, the money from which almost always goes into the general coffers, would easily clear. Whether the tariff exists to raise money or punish bad trade practices is likely irrelevant.

Indeed, in cases where the court has analyzed the Senate’s power to amend tariff legislation originating in the House, the court has never questioned that the bills at issue fell within the scope of the clause, thereby implicitly accepting tariffs as “bills for raising revenue.”

Executive orders imposing tariffs would also disrupt the framers’ careful constitutional structure. The House’s origination privilege was meant to appease the large states in exchange for equal, rather than proportionate, representation in the Senate. It also stood as a counterbalance against the special powers over treaties and appointments given to the Senate. Mr. Trump could upend this grand bargain by wresting control over tariff policy from the House (and, indeed, Congress altogether).

Mr. Trump is not the first president to suggest raising revenue by executive action. Last year, President Obama, long criticized for his expansive use of executive authority, eyed unilateral actions on tax matters, with Hillary Clinton and Bernie Sanders voicing support. The taxes at issue then, however, were predominantly to close corporate loopholes. These loopholes were either created by the Treasury or implicated regulatory powers delegated to the agency by Congress, and thus were appropriately in the executive’s wheelhouse.

Of course, Mr. Trump doesn’t have to act unilaterally; he has Republican majorities in both chambers that are eager to work with him. One option would be to push for a border adjustment tax, a proposal already being floated in the House as part of comprehensive tax reform, which would forbid tax deductions for imports and exempt exports from taxes.

A border adjustment tax is a far better option than tariffs. It would eliminate incentives in the current tax system to manufacture abroad, and to shift income abroad. Unlike a tariff, it aims to be trade neutral, with any changes in consumer pricing of imports and exports being offset by a rise in the dollar. And with strong support in the House, it could be enacted in full compliance with the Origination Clause, lending it legitimacy that a unilateral tariff would lack.

Mr. Trump doesn’t need to go it alone in strengthening the domestic economy. He just needs to have the patience to do it in accordance with the Constitution.


Source


The NYTimes cares about the Constitution now...how cute. Lol. (By the way Tariffs suck ass, and are only acceptable if they're the only/primary form of "government revenue" like how it used to be before the Income Tax)
Thank you bureaucrats for all your hard work, your commitment to public service and public good is essential to the lives of so many. Also, for Pete's sake can we please get some gun control already, no need for hand guns and assault rifles for the public
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
January 03 2017 17:45 GMT
#129879
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
Doodsmack
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States7224 Posts
January 03 2017 17:54 GMT
#129880
Better fulfill this promise, too.

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