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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

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LegalLord
Profile Blog Joined April 2013
United Kingdom13775 Posts
November 29 2016 14:24 GMT
#126661
Drop a bomb, it explodes. You can analyze the remains but that's not great for reverse engineering. It's rarer that you can acquire a piece of technical hardware intact, but it is useful - though you generally only have just the one copy.

If you get a piece of malware you have the entire thing, you can make infinite copies, and you can reverse engineer it relatively easily if you have the resources (an advanced nation with cyber tech does have the resources). And to some extent, more technological advancement makes you more, not less, vulnerable to cyber warfare. There are a ridiculous number of scrumptious targets in the US just waiting to get hacked.

Stuxnet is a great example of something that seemed like a good idea, but also failed to do what it intended (cripple the Iran nuclear program) while opening one hell of a can of worms in the form of cyber warfare.
History will sooner or later sweep the European Union away without mercy.
ticklishmusic
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States15977 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-11-29 14:53:35
November 29 2016 14:53 GMT
#126662
1/5 of the centrifuges doesn't seem too bad, though there's no way of knowing what kind of goal the US/israeli operation set. a probably-not-great argument is that someone would have done it eventually anyways. there's plenty of "innovations" if you want to call it in clandestine services, and not all of them are gonna be an exploding pen from a james bond movie.

sure you can make infinite copies of stuxnet, but it's not going to be particularly useful. i don't know too much about the program itself, but it doesn't seem to have had any crazy new elements or been a trove of proprietary l33t haxx0r knowledge.
(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
Doodsmack
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States7224 Posts
November 29 2016 15:32 GMT
#126663
On November 29 2016 18:44 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:
So apparently yesterday Obama announced he was expanding the war against Al-Qaeda to include Shabab in Somalia.
Within a day a Somalian goes on a rampage in Ohio.
Any relation?

The whole article is at the NYT but here's the gist without the paywall.

https://sofrep.com/68799/obama-expands-war-al-qaeda-include-shabab-somalia/
Show nested quote +

WASHINGTON — The escalating American military engagement in Somalia has led the Obama administration to expand the legal scope of the war against Al Qaeda, a move that will strengthen President-elect Donald J. Trump’s authority to combat thousands of Islamist fighters in the chaotic Horn of Africa nation.

The administration has decided to deem the Shabab, the Islamist militant group in Somalia, to be part of the armed conflict that Congress authorized against the perpetrators of the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks, according to senior American officials. The move is intended to shore up the legal basis for an intensifying campaign of airstrikes and other counterterrorism operations, carried out largely in support of African Union and Somali government forces.

The executive branch’s stretching of the 2001 war authorization against the original Al Qaeda to cover other Islamist groups in countries far from Afghanistan — even ones, like the Shabab, that did not exist at the time — has prompted recurring objections from some legal and foreign policy experts.

The Shabab decision is expected to be publicly disclosed next month in a letter to Congress listing global deployments. It is part of the Obama administration’s pattern of relaxing various self-imposed rules for airstrikes against Islamist militants as it tries to help its partner forces in several conflicts.


A good illustration of why Trump's escalation-through-chest-thumping method might not be effective.
Doodsmack
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States7224 Posts
November 29 2016 15:34 GMT
#126664
Some high quality intellect right here, folks.

{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
November 29 2016 15:37 GMT
#126665
SHAKTOOLIK, Alaska — In the dream, a storm came and Betsy Bekoalok watched the river rise on one side of the village and the ocean on the other, the water swallowing up the brightly colored houses, the fishing boats and the four-wheelers, the school and the clinic.

She dived into the floodwaters, frantically searching for her son. Bodies drifted past her in the half-darkness. When she finally found the boy, he, too, was lifeless.

“I picked him up and brought him back from the ocean’s bottom,” Ms. Bekoalok remembered.

The Inupiat people who for centuries have hunted and fished on Alaska’s western coast believe that some dreams are portents of things to come.

But here in Shaktoolik, one need not be a prophet to predict flooding, especially during the fall storms.

Laid out on a narrow spit of sand between the Tagoomenik River and the Bering Sea, the village of 250 or so people is facing an imminent threat from increased flooding and erosion, signs of a changing climate.

With its proximity to the Arctic, Alaska is warming about twice as fast as the rest of the United States and the state is heading for the warmest year on record. The government has identified at least 31 Alaskan towns and cities at imminent risk of destruction, with Shaktoolik ranking among the top four. Some villages, climate change experts predict, will be uninhabitable by 2050, their residents joining a flow of climate refugees around the globe, in Bolivia, China, Niger and other countries.

These endangered Alaskan communities face a choice. They could move to higher ground, a wrenching prospect that for a small village could cost as much as $200 million. Or they could stand their ground and hope to find money to fortify their buildings and shore up their coastline.

At least two villages farther up the western coast, Shishmaref and Kivalina, have voted to relocate when and if they can find a suitable site and the money to do so. A third, Newtok, in the soggy Yukon-Kuskokwim Delta farther south, has taken the first steps toward a move.

But, after years of meetings that led nowhere and pleas for government financing that remained unmet, Shaktoolik has decided it will “stay and defend,” at least for the time being, the mayor, Eugene Asicksik, said.

“We are doing things on our own,” he said.


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
xDaunt
Profile Joined March 2010
United States17988 Posts
November 29 2016 15:52 GMT
#126666
On November 29 2016 18:29 Liquid`Drone wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 29 2016 13:40 xDaunt wrote:
On November 29 2016 13:04 IgnE wrote:
In the summer of 2015, armed American drones over eastern Syria stalked Junaid Hussain, an influential hacker and recruiter for the Islamic State.

For weeks, Mr. Hussain was careful to keep his young stepson by his side, and the drones held their fire. But late one night, Mr. Hussain left an internet cafe alone, and minutes later a Hellfire missile killed him as he walked between two buildings in Raqqa, Syria, the Islamic State’s de facto capital.


http://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/24/world/middleeast/isis-recruiters-social-media.html?smid=tw-share&_r=0

Obama is killing keyboard warriors.

It'll be interesting to see whether liberals suddenly grow a conscience after Trump takes over and keeps bombing/droning the shit out of ISIS.


You realize that liberals have been deeply critical of Obama's use of drones?

Yes, some have. But watch how many more become vocal of Trump's use of the same program once he takes over.
zlefin
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
United States7689 Posts
November 29 2016 15:54 GMT
#126667
On November 30 2016 00:52 xDaunt wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 29 2016 18:29 Liquid`Drone wrote:
On November 29 2016 13:40 xDaunt wrote:
On November 29 2016 13:04 IgnE wrote:
In the summer of 2015, armed American drones over eastern Syria stalked Junaid Hussain, an influential hacker and recruiter for the Islamic State.

For weeks, Mr. Hussain was careful to keep his young stepson by his side, and the drones held their fire. But late one night, Mr. Hussain left an internet cafe alone, and minutes later a Hellfire missile killed him as he walked between two buildings in Raqqa, Syria, the Islamic State’s de facto capital.


http://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/24/world/middleeast/isis-recruiters-social-media.html?smid=tw-share&_r=0

Obama is killing keyboard warriors.

It'll be interesting to see whether liberals suddenly grow a conscience after Trump takes over and keeps bombing/droning the shit out of ISIS.


You realize that liberals have been deeply critical of Obama's use of drones?

Yes, some have. But watch how many more become vocal of Trump's use of the same program once he takes over.

I would guess about 60%, based on my impressions of how many people are more partisan-driven than policy-driven, and fail to tone down their biases to account for such things.
Great read: http://shorensteincenter.org/news-coverage-2016-general-election/ great book on democracy: http://press.princeton.edu/titles/10671.html zlefin is grumpier due to long term illness. Ignoring some users.
Doodsmack
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States7224 Posts
November 29 2016 15:54 GMT
#126668
We're just waiting for the difference in the bombs' effectiveness caused by the president being willing to use the phrase "radical Islamic terrorism".
farvacola
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States18826 Posts
November 29 2016 15:55 GMT
#126669
For more than a decade, Holland Public Schools has watched its enrollment fall, prompting the closure – and demolition – of multiple schools.

The decline is not the result of an aging community with fewer, school-age children. Rather, it’s largely a reflection of Michigan’s generous school choice policies. Choice has, consciously or not, left districts like Holland not only scrambling for students, but more racially segregated as its white students leave, often for districts that are less diverse.

“When school choice started, that decline started,” said Brian Davis, superintendent of the Holland district. In 2000, Holland had 15 school buildings; it now has eight. About one-in-three students living within the district are now being educated in another district or charter school. Because state education dollars follow students to their new district or charter, Davis said that Holland’s white flight has shaken the district’s finances.

In the two decades since Michigan adopted school choice, Holland’s white enrollment has plummeted 60 percent, with 2,100 fewer white students. Today, whites comprise 49 percent of school-age children living in the district, but only 38 percent the school population (Hispanics make up 47 percent of Holland schools).

From Holland to metro Detroit, Flint to Jackson, tens of thousands of parents across Michigan are using the state’s schools of choice program to move students out of their resident districts and into ones that are more segregated, a Bridge analysis of state enrollment data shows.
Last week, Bridge showed how “choice” has made several metro Detroit districts less diverse, with white students moving to whiter districts and African-American students increasingly gravitating to almost-entirely-black charter schools.
As white students left Holland’s schools, poor and Hispanic children increasingly became the face of the district. Today, 70 percent of Holland students are eligible for a free or reduced-price lunch, more than double the district’s poverty rate when choice began.
Many of those who left Holland’s schools didn’t go far. More than 400 students who live in the district now attend Black River Public School, a charter where 74 percent of students are white. Black River is just over a mile from Holland High School.

Another 255 Holland students drive east to the Zeeland Public Schools, which are 77 percent white.
Steve Grose, president of the Holland Public Schools board of education, has watched as thousands who live in his district take their kids elsewhere. One of his own has already graduated from Holland schools and two are currently in high school. Grose, who is white, said he is glad he stayed and embraced the diversity of the schools, which are also 7 percent African American.
“I’d say they’re getting a better education because of the rich diversity,” he said.

Yet across the state, thousands of parents are making a different decision, using choice to direct their children to less diverse traditional public or charter school districts.

The reasons given vary: Better resources, less racial friction, higher test scores, a safer environment. Advocates say parents are simply choosing schools that are better for the needs of their children, and deny that racial animus drives the majority of school choice decisions.

“Parents are making choice not on that issue (race),” said Dan Quisenberry, president of Michigan Association of Public School Academies, or MAPSA, the state’s largest charter school advocacy group. “They’re making choice based on, ‘How does this fit? Is it going to work’” for their child?


Betsy DeVos and the segregation of school choice
"when the Dead Kennedys found out they had skinhead fans, they literally wrote a song titled 'Nazi Punks Fuck Off'"
Dan HH
Profile Joined July 2012
Romania9118 Posts
November 29 2016 16:09 GMT
#126670
On November 30 2016 00:34 Doodsmack wrote:
Some high quality intellect right here, folks.

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/803423203620245504

He's shown plenty of times during the campaign that he doesn't grasp (or acknowledge) the concept of burden of proof. Or any of the fundamentals of argumentation. Whether he does so because he's that dim witted or because it's an easy way to secure support from the growing wave of anti-intellectuals it's hard to tell and makes no difference.
xDaunt
Profile Joined March 2010
United States17988 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-11-29 16:12:30
November 29 2016 16:11 GMT
#126671
Steve Grose, president of the Holland Public Schools board of education, has watched as thousands who live in his district take their kids elsewhere. One of his own has already graduated from Holland schools and two are currently in high school. Grose, who is white, said he is glad he stayed and embraced the diversity of the schools, which are also 7 percent African American.
“I’d say they’re getting a better education because of the rich diversity,” he said.

I've always thought that this was an incredibly stupid sentiment. Diversity is cute and all, but pretending that it is a key -- much less paramount -- component of education is a joke.
farvacola
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States18826 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-11-29 16:18:13
November 29 2016 16:16 GMT
#126672
Given your attitudes towards racism as a general concept, I doubt anyone is surprised to hear you say that. However, diversity as a goal in and of itself is ancillary to the larger point, namely that school choice without attention paid to infrastructure is a recipe for de facto school segregation.

In unrelated news, its looking more and more like McCrory is out as governor of North Carolina. Good riddance.
"when the Dead Kennedys found out they had skinhead fans, they literally wrote a song titled 'Nazi Punks Fuck Off'"
Orome
Profile Blog Joined June 2004
Switzerland11984 Posts
November 29 2016 16:24 GMT
#126673
On November 30 2016 01:11 xDaunt wrote:
Show nested quote +
Steve Grose, president of the Holland Public Schools board of education, has watched as thousands who live in his district take their kids elsewhere. One of his own has already graduated from Holland schools and two are currently in high school. Grose, who is white, said he is glad he stayed and embraced the diversity of the schools, which are also 7 percent African American.
“I’d say they’re getting a better education because of the rich diversity,” he said.

I've always thought that this was an incredibly stupid sentiment. Diversity is cute and all, but pretending that it is a key -- much less paramount -- component of education is a joke.


This election has once again shown just how deep the lines of division within your country run (culturally, racially, the list goes on). Being exposed to this reality and learning to socialise and coexist (and argue) with people from different backgrounds than your own IS a key component of education. Given how fond the right is of talking about the ivory towers of the elite, I'd have thought this was self-evident.
On a purely personal note, I'd like to show Yellow the beauty of infinitely repeating Starcraft 2 bunkers. -Boxer
TheTenthDoc
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United States9561 Posts
November 29 2016 16:28 GMT
#126674
On November 30 2016 01:16 farvacola wrote:
Given your attitudes towards racism as a general concept, I doubt anyone is surprised to hear you say that. However, diversity as a goal in and of itself is ancillary to the larger point, namely that school choice without attention paid to infrastructure is a recipe for de facto school segregation.

In unrelated news, its looking more and more like McCrory is out as governor of North Carolina. Good riddance.


McCrory is going to cling as long as he conceivably can. He's grasping for anything. This is basically what we would have seen if Trump had lost the electoral college, by the way, considering Trump is alleging voter fraud purely to soothe his ego despite the fact he's president elect.
Acrofales
Profile Joined August 2010
Spain17983 Posts
November 29 2016 16:34 GMT
#126675
On November 29 2016 23:24 LegalLord wrote:
Drop a bomb, it explodes. You can analyze the remains but that's not great for reverse engineering. It's rarer that you can acquire a piece of technical hardware intact, but it is useful - though you generally only have just the one copy.

If you get a piece of malware you have the entire thing, you can make infinite copies, and you can reverse engineer it relatively easily if you have the resources (an advanced nation with cyber tech does have the resources). And to some extent, more technological advancement makes you more, not less, vulnerable to cyber warfare. There are a ridiculous number of scrumptious targets in the US just waiting to get hacked.

Stuxnet is a great example of something that seemed like a good idea, but also failed to do what it intended (cripple the Iran nuclear program) while opening one hell of a can of worms in the form of cyber warfare.

Huh? That's not the only information you have from a bomb. It didn't take the Soviets long to "reverse engineer" nuclear weapons from what they saw happen in Japan. Any new weapon used against a sufficiently resourceful enemy will give you the initial advantage, but will quickly be copied. The main difference is that everything is faster and infinitely more available in the digital playground. You don't need a giant arms research facility, you need a couple of laptops (you need clever techs in either case).

As for targets waiting to get hacked: they were there before stuxnet and plenty of people have published plenty of papers pointing out those vulnerabilities. All stuxnet really did was show that it wasn't just possible in theory, but also in practice, on a very high profile target. Even so, the US infrastructure is incredibly vulnerable. A lot of it is aging, centralized and easily accessible. I read an article a few years ago that a carefully constructed cyberattack on 2 or 3 electrical substations would knock out the entire electrical grid of the US for a few days, if not more. That would require physical access to the sites, but there were less terrible scenarios that could be done remotely, but would still cause considerable damage (knock out power to NYC for a few hours, as an example). And this focused on the electric grid. There's plenty of other systems that could cause havoc on a smaller scale (traffic control being the most obvious).
TanGeng
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
Sanya12364 Posts
November 29 2016 16:44 GMT
#126676
Self-Segregation is a tough phenomenon to tackle.
Often it can be the minorities choosing to self-segregate.

The problem is beyond school choice which is designed to tackle a different issues. School choice is more about active parents being able to flee schools due to inadequacies in the teachers, the facilities, or fellow students.
Moderator我们是个踏实的赞助商模式俱乐部
Incognoto
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
France10239 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-11-29 16:46:12
November 29 2016 16:45 GMT
#126677
It's normal and fine for people to send their children to the best possible establishments that they can.

There isn't a parent alive who says that they'd rather their child goes to a lesser quality school if it means they're going to adjust diversity statistics.
maru lover forever
LegalLord
Profile Blog Joined April 2013
United Kingdom13775 Posts
November 29 2016 16:47 GMT
#126678
On November 29 2016 23:53 ticklishmusic wrote:
1/5 of the centrifuges doesn't seem too bad, though there's no way of knowing what kind of goal the US/israeli operation set. a probably-not-great argument is that someone would have done it eventually anyways. there's plenty of "innovations" if you want to call it in clandestine services, and not all of them are gonna be an exploding pen from a james bond movie.

sure you can make infinite copies of stuxnet, but it's not going to be particularly useful. i don't know too much about the program itself, but it doesn't seem to have had any crazy new elements or been a trove of proprietary l33t haxx0r knowledge.

Alleged goal (since no one will officially admit involvement): sabotage the nuclear program to make it unviable while not having it traced back to you.

Result: Everyone knows who did it, Iran's nuclear program survived with a few losses to write off, proliferation is a bitch.

Stuxnet had a whole lot of useful exploits that could be exploited by anyone who studied the virus and saw what it was doing. Everything about cyber warfare is highly speculative so no one knows for sure but it is believed that many further hacks were Stuxnet-derivative.
History will sooner or later sweep the European Union away without mercy.
farvacola
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States18826 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-11-29 16:53:29
November 29 2016 16:50 GMT
#126679
On November 30 2016 01:45 Incognoto wrote:
It's normal and fine for people to send their children to the best possible establishments that they can.

There isn't a parent alive who says that they'd rather their child goes to a lesser quality school if it means they're going to adjust diversity statistics.

And that's precisely why "parent choice" makes for a poor basis for public policy in the area of education; those opposed to desegregation circa Brown v. Board of Education made the very same arguments. The problem with "school choice" as a movement here in the US is that it comes at the expense of infrastructural improvements, improvements that are a necessary component of equality in education access.

As for TanGeng's assertion that minorities are oftentimes the one driving the school choice bus, access to resources and the article I posted suggest otherwise. Furthermore, this idea that there are "separate issues" in education ignores the omnibus nature of contemporary legislation. For better or for worse, reform now almost always comes in the form of a package deal, and given the Republican impulse to couple school choice with drastic cuts in baseline funding, it'd be a mistake to address the issues discretely.
"when the Dead Kennedys found out they had skinhead fans, they literally wrote a song titled 'Nazi Punks Fuck Off'"
LegalLord
Profile Blog Joined April 2013
United Kingdom13775 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-11-29 16:51:18
November 29 2016 16:51 GMT
#126680
On November 30 2016 01:34 Acrofales wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 29 2016 23:24 LegalLord wrote:
Drop a bomb, it explodes. You can analyze the remains but that's not great for reverse engineering. It's rarer that you can acquire a piece of technical hardware intact, but it is useful - though you generally only have just the one copy.

If you get a piece of malware you have the entire thing, you can make infinite copies, and you can reverse engineer it relatively easily if you have the resources (an advanced nation with cyber tech does have the resources). And to some extent, more technological advancement makes you more, not less, vulnerable to cyber warfare. There are a ridiculous number of scrumptious targets in the US just waiting to get hacked.

Stuxnet is a great example of something that seemed like a good idea, but also failed to do what it intended (cripple the Iran nuclear program) while opening one hell of a can of worms in the form of cyber warfare.

Huh? That's not the only information you have from a bomb. It didn't take the Soviets long to "reverse engineer" nuclear weapons from what they saw happen in Japan. Any new weapon used against a sufficiently resourceful enemy will give you the initial advantage, but will quickly be copied. The main difference is that everything is faster and infinitely more available in the digital playground. You don't need a giant arms research facility, you need a couple of laptops (you need clever techs in either case).

As for targets waiting to get hacked: they were there before stuxnet and plenty of people have published plenty of papers pointing out those vulnerabilities. All stuxnet really did was show that it wasn't just possible in theory, but also in practice, on a very high profile target. Even so, the US infrastructure is incredibly vulnerable. A lot of it is aging, centralized and easily accessible. I read an article a few years ago that a carefully constructed cyberattack on 2 or 3 electrical substations would knock out the entire electrical grid of the US for a few days, if not more. That would require physical access to the sites, but there were less terrible scenarios that could be done remotely, but would still cause considerable damage (knock out power to NYC for a few hours, as an example). And this focused on the electric grid. There's plenty of other systems that could cause havoc on a smaller scale (traffic control being the most obvious).

Maybe with the nuke, having a well-developed science program and espionage also help. Otherwise, why didn't everyone else who saw the nuke instantly know how to re-build it?

Cyber warfare is the kind of thing that you could do to another nation and cause a lot of damage... but then they can do it right back and they'd cause a ton of damage as well. The entire calculus of cyber security changes greatly when state actors are a massive, rather than minor, threat.
History will sooner or later sweep the European Union away without mercy.
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