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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
plasmidghost
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
Belgium16168 Posts
November 11 2016 07:21 GMT
#123861
I hope Ron Paul can become Treasury Secretary and take a sledgehammer to the Fed
Yugoslavia will always live on in my heart
Jaaaaasper
Profile Blog Joined April 2012
United States10225 Posts
November 11 2016 07:23 GMT
#123862
I hope Chris Christie becomes secretary of transportation
Hey do you want to hear a joke? Chinese production value. | I thought he had a aegis- Ayesee | When did 7ing mad last have a good game, 2012?
CorsairHero
Profile Joined December 2008
Canada9491 Posts
November 11 2016 07:25 GMT
#123863
On November 11 2016 16:21 plasmidghost wrote:
I hope Ron Paul can become Treasury Secretary and take a sledgehammer to the Fed

what do you want the fed to do?
© Current year.
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States23172 Posts
November 11 2016 07:26 GMT
#123864
On November 11 2016 15:58 Jaaaaasper wrote:
Even this year Democrats won the popular vote, they don't have to do abusrd gerrymandering to have a serious wave effect when fixed districts take effect. They do need to get young voters to the polls with out going far enough to the left to lose votes from the center. That means less Bernie and more populists with workable policies.

Show nested quote +
On November 11 2016 15:57 Wegandi wrote:
On November 11 2016 15:53 Mysticesper wrote:
they need to win state legislatures who rewrite the districts after the 2020 census. Thats how the repubs did it in 2010. You got some funky ass districts in states like South Carolina (or north) and the like because of that. It would be hard to gain control of the house without winning state legislatures first,.


The reason the Dems will continue to lose the House isn't because of gerrymandering, it's because 90% of the Dems live within a small radius of each other. The Dems are so tilted to large cities that they've pretty much isolated themselves from 90% of the country. Should look at a distribution on a map sometime.

Districts are meant to be based on population, not geography. Thats why Alaska has fewer districts than Maryland


Wegandi's right though. gerrymandering favors Republicans, but not by enough to swing the house. As has been pointed out a lot, Republicans also went too far in some cases and actually gave themselves districts with people they'd rather be more evenly dispersed so they were less determinant of outcomes.

Democrats problem at the local level is the same reason they won the popular vote but lost the EC by a lot. It's a distribution thing, combined with an archaic system designed to elevate the opinion of slave owning states. That Democrats couldn't care less when it favors them helps me understand why all these outlets feel the need to remind (or tell people for the first time) that the EC is leftover from trying to help the south basically count like their slaves just voted the same as their masters.

It had 91 electors when it started, we went from that to 538 without figuring out the reason we had it (the legitimate one had to do with a lack of clarity in the original constitution's presidential/VP elections) had no modern application (more than 100 years ago).

The only reason it's coming up now is because they thought it was a lock for Dems for the foreseeable future, and they figured out demographics don't matter if you put up a candidate that can't get their base to show up (that's on the candidate, not the base, people need to stop with that).
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
Jaaaaasper
Profile Blog Joined April 2012
United States10225 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-11-11 07:32:02
November 11 2016 07:27 GMT
#123865
On November 11 2016 16:25 CorsairHero wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 11 2016 16:21 plasmidghost wrote:
I hope Ron Paul can become Treasury Secretary and take a sledgehammer to the Fed

what do you want the fed to do?

If he wants Ron Paul to become treasury secretary, nothing.

Also in something completely unrelated, I wish we made election day a holiday, because with right to work stats for too many companies don't let their employees vote.

And nahh GH I consider voting a duty of every citizen (this meaning I blame people who didn't vote for not voting), and would be fine with making it a crime not to vote. Mandatory voting (along with ranked choice) is also the only way third party's have a shot at becoming relevant. To use a obviously fake example, if trump was my favorite candidate but I didn't dare risk Jill Stein becoming president, ranked choice would let me go Trump 1 Clinton 2 to make sure Jill Stein never got close to the white house. And mandatory voting would get the people who aren't excited about the two major parties to the polls, with the chance to vote for a candidate that did excite them, while being able to hedge their bets by voting for the lesser evil as their second choice.
Hey do you want to hear a joke? Chinese production value. | I thought he had a aegis- Ayesee | When did 7ing mad last have a good game, 2012?
Introvert
Profile Joined April 2011
United States4741 Posts
November 11 2016 07:30 GMT
#123866
On November 11 2016 14:09 GreenHorizons wrote:

The most upsetting thing for me and many other people on the left isn't him (or most/all? of the conservatives here) not saying anything about people like Clark calling for torches if he lost. It's how right he is about a group of protesters, that even I seriously question.



Just to snipe this bit out. For whatever it matters, conservative twitter and elesewhere roundly mocked Clarke for that, and don't like the idea of him having a cabinet post. He's viewed as being right on some things but also a nut, thought that's hardly universal.

But I don't do saw much Republican bashing here because this thread does it for me. I'm not inclined to pile on, especially when the hyperbole kicks in.

I am, however, curious to see if picking more radical leftists into power in the Democrat party is a working strategy. Just as many, you yourself included, mock the idea that the Republicans need a more conservative candidate, I'm not sure the Democrats need a more progressive one. They certainly need less Clintonism though, that's pretty obvious.
"It is therefore only at the birth of a society that one can be completely logical in the laws. When you see a people enjoying this advantage, do not hasten to conclude that it is wise; think rather that it is young." -Alexis de Tocqueville
Introvert
Profile Joined April 2011
United States4741 Posts
November 11 2016 07:32 GMT
#123867
Sexism. The media. James Comey.

On a call with surrogates Thursday afternoon, top advisers John Podesta and Jennifer Palmieri pinned blame for Hillary Clinton’s loss on a host of uncontrollable headwinds that ultimately felled a well-run campaign that executed a sensible strategy, and a soldier of a candidate who appealed to the broadest coalition of voters in the country.

They shot down questions about whether they should have run a more populist campaign with a greater appeal to angry white voters, pointing to exit polls that showed Clinton beat Trump on the issue of the economy. They explained that internal polling from May showed that attacking Trump on the issue of temperament was a more effective message.

They offered no apology for the unexpected loss.

On the call, Clinton surrogates who have supported the campaign from the outside for the past 18 months offered their thanks to the Brooklyn-based operatives. The mood was light and supportive, with Podesta and Palmieri expressing gratitude for everyone’s hard work.

But some people on the call were seething.

“They are saying they did nothing wrong, which is ridiculous,” said one Clinton surrogate. “She was the wrong messenger and everyone misjudged how pissed working class people were.”


And here is a rather funny bit:

But in general, Bill Clinton’s viewpoint of fighting for the working class white voters was often dismissed with a hand wave by senior members of the team as a personal vendetta to win back the voters who elected him, from a talented but aging politician who simply refused to accept the new Democratic map. At a meeting ahead of the convention at which aides presented to both Clintons the “Stronger Together” framework for the general election, senior strategist Joel Benenson told the former president bluntly that the voters from West Virginia were never coming back to his party
.

www.politico.com
"It is therefore only at the birth of a society that one can be completely logical in the laws. When you see a people enjoying this advantage, do not hasten to conclude that it is wise; think rather that it is young." -Alexis de Tocqueville
Yorbon
Profile Joined December 2011
Netherlands4272 Posts
November 11 2016 07:37 GMT
#123868
The Senate’s soon-to-be top Democrat told labor leaders Thursday that the Trans-Pacific Partnership, the trade deal at the center of President Obama’s “pivot” to strengthen ties with key Asian allies, will not be ratified by Congress.

That remark from Sen. Charles E. Schumer (D-N.Y.), who is expected to be the incoming Senate minority leader, came as good news to the AFL-CIO Executive Council, which met Thursday in Washington. Schumer relayed statements that Republican congressional leaders had made to him, according to an aide who confirmed the remarks.

Obama’s signature global trade deal had been on life support for months as both Democrats and Republicans campaigned against unfair trade policies ahead of the Nov. 8 election. And Donald Trump’s triumph in the presidential race cemented its fate.

“There is no way to fix the TPP,” Trump said in a June economic address. “We need bilateral trade deals. We do not need to enter into another massive international agreement that ties us up and binds us down.”


https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/powerpost/wp/2016/11/10/the-trans-pacific-partnership-is-dead-schumer-tells-labor-leaders/
plasmidghost
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
Belgium16168 Posts
November 11 2016 07:42 GMT
#123869
On November 11 2016 16:25 CorsairHero wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 11 2016 16:21 plasmidghost wrote:
I hope Ron Paul can become Treasury Secretary and take a sledgehammer to the Fed

what do you want the fed to do?

Not a lot
Yugoslavia will always live on in my heart
Dan HH
Profile Joined July 2012
Romania9114 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-11-11 07:44:37
November 11 2016 07:44 GMT
#123870
On November 11 2016 16:30 Introvert wrote:
I am, however, curious to see if picking more radical leftists into power in the Democrat party is a working strategy. Just as many, you yourself included, mock the idea that the Republicans need a more conservative candidate, I'm not sure the Democrats need a more progressive one.

I agree. I remember seeing this bit from 538's coverage of the election

In the October 2016 wave of the ongoing Institute for the Study of Citizens and Politics study, we asked respondents to place Trump and Clinton on a 7 point ideology scale. On average, voters put Trump 0.64 points to their right — and put Clinton a whopping 1.88 to their left. Put differently, the average voter saw Clinton as decisively to their left, while ranking Trump’s views as closer to their own. They also had more uncertainty about exactly where to place Trump. Should he win, one of the challenges he will likely face is that he may be forced to clarify just how conservative he is through the process of governing.


As much as I would like to see the Democratic party become a social-dem one, the average voter in the US is too far from it. It's not by chance that the Dems are currently a center-right party, that's where they can get the most votes.
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States23172 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-11-11 08:12:17
November 11 2016 07:47 GMT
#123871
On November 11 2016 16:30 Introvert wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 11 2016 14:09 GreenHorizons wrote:

The most upsetting thing for me and many other people on the left isn't him (or most/all? of the conservatives here) not saying anything about people like Clark calling for torches if he lost. It's how right he is about a group of protesters, that even I seriously question.



Just to snipe this bit out. For whatever it matters, conservative twitter and elesewhere roundly mocked Clarke for that, and don't like the idea of him having a cabinet post. He's viewed as being right on some things but also a nut, thought that's hardly universal.

But I don't do saw much Republican bashing here because this thread does it for me. I'm not inclined to pile on, especially when the hyperbole kicks in.

I am, however, curious to see if picking more radical leftists into power in the Democrat party is a working strategy. Just as many, you yourself included, mock the idea that the Republicans need a more conservative candidate, I'm not sure the Democrats need a more progressive one. They certainly need less Clintonism though, that's pretty obvious.


Perhaps it's not that we need more progressive candidates (as in "radical leftist") Democrats just need to do a better job of representing the ~75% of the population that didn't vote for Clinton. While polling is limited, most of what Bernie was proposing (call it radical if one wants) was actually supported by a majority of people. There were more than enough of those that progressive Dems could fight for and win, so long as they really fought since it's the majority opinion, many by pretty significant margins.

It shouldn't go without saying a lot of the reason many people on the left think Sanders proposals weren't popular was because they believed the lies coming out of the Clinton/Republican campaigns. We all know the WP wasn't Bernie central and even they couldn't deny it on several issues.

EDIT: You may remember when it was noticed that it's establishment politicians who are the opponents to these types of proposals, the argument shifted toward "he won't be able to get it done anyway", which obviously falls apart if the representation matches the public opinion.

So the idea that Berniecrats would be too radical to win, I don't think matches the popularity of the positions they support.
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
RvB
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
Netherlands6204 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-11-11 08:37:05
November 11 2016 08:36 GMT
#123872
nvm
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-11-11 08:51:23
November 11 2016 08:51 GMT
#123873
Clinton supporters made the argument for the entire election cycle that she was working toward the same things he was, just that she was a better messenger for them.

The same argument works in reverse--from a pure policy perspective, Bernie isn't particularly more radical than Clinton, he was just easier to trust in terms of actually working toward said goals.
Moderator
Nebuchad
Profile Blog Joined December 2012
Switzerland12155 Posts
November 11 2016 09:00 GMT
#123874
On November 11 2016 17:51 TheYango wrote:
Clinton supporters made the argument for the entire election cycle that she was working toward the same things he was, just that she was a better messenger for them.

The same argument works in reverse--from a pure policy perspective, Bernie isn't particularly more radical than Clinton, he was just easier to trust in terms of actually working toward said goals.


Yeah but nobody believed Clinton and Sanders were actually similar, they just pretended to believe it.
No will to live, no wish to die
Dan HH
Profile Joined July 2012
Romania9114 Posts
November 11 2016 09:03 GMT
#123875
On November 11 2016 17:51 TheYango wrote:
Clinton supporters made the argument for the entire election cycle that she was working toward the same things he was, just that she was a better messenger for them.

The same argument works in reverse--from a pure policy perspective, Bernie isn't particularly more radical than Clinton, he was just easier to trust in terms of actually working toward said goals.

And who knows, maybe Clinton would have won if she stayed more centrist instead of pandering to Bernie's base who she failed to win over significantly more than she would have done by default.

On the other hand if Bernie would have won, as far as I'm concerned it would have been despite being a social-dem rather than because of it. His biggest appeal was the anti-establishment element, electoral reform and trade barriers in particular. The latter being the main reason Trump got elected.
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States23172 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-11-11 09:16:51
November 11 2016 09:14 GMT
#123876
On November 11 2016 18:03 Dan HH wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 11 2016 17:51 TheYango wrote:
Clinton supporters made the argument for the entire election cycle that she was working toward the same things he was, just that she was a better messenger for them.

The same argument works in reverse--from a pure policy perspective, Bernie isn't particularly more radical than Clinton, he was just easier to trust in terms of actually working toward said goals.

And who knows, maybe Clinton would have won if she stayed more centrist instead of pandering to Bernie's base who she failed to win over significantly more than she would have done by default.

On the other hand if Bernie would have won, as far as I'm concerned it would have been despite being a social-dem rather than because of it. His biggest appeal was the anti-establishment element, electoral reform and trade barriers in particular. The latter being the main reason Trump got elected.


I don't necessarily disagree with that, though I would certainly add being the most trusted and favorable candidate in the race would have helped quite a bit too. One of Hillary's major problems was that between Trump, the Media, and Hillary, Trump was the most trusted. That simply wouldn't have been the case with Bernie.

I don't think the ideology was the most important part of his policies though, it's just that they are what Americans want in many cases, what ideology leads them there actually varies a decent amount. For instance, the reasons I support gun control as a gun owner is pretty different than why some on the left want gun control, but that doesn't mean we can't agree on something that makes it better than it is now, universal background checks come to mind.

UBC's haven't passed, not because of the policy, or it's support among the public, but directly because our "representatives" don't represent us, which ideology that leads us there aside.
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
Dan HH
Profile Joined July 2012
Romania9114 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-11-11 10:05:53
November 11 2016 09:56 GMT
#123877
Just saw that Wikileaks did an AMA yesterday and it backfired spectacularly. I wasn't expecting redditors to call them on their shit. Lots of contradictions, hypocrisy and questions they couldn't answer in there.

@GH I agree that honesty was a big factor in the equation, that could have gotten Bernie ahead in the general regardless of red scare tactics
Swisslink
Profile Joined March 2011
2953 Posts
November 11 2016 10:01 GMT
#123878
On November 11 2016 18:14 GreenHorizons wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 11 2016 18:03 Dan HH wrote:
On November 11 2016 17:51 TheYango wrote:
Clinton supporters made the argument for the entire election cycle that she was working toward the same things he was, just that she was a better messenger for them.

The same argument works in reverse--from a pure policy perspective, Bernie isn't particularly more radical than Clinton, he was just easier to trust in terms of actually working toward said goals.

And who knows, maybe Clinton would have won if she stayed more centrist instead of pandering to Bernie's base who she failed to win over significantly more than she would have done by default.

On the other hand if Bernie would have won, as far as I'm concerned it would have been despite being a social-dem rather than because of it. His biggest appeal was the anti-establishment element, electoral reform and trade barriers in particular. The latter being the main reason Trump got elected.


I don't necessarily disagree with that, though I would certainly add being the most trusted and favorable candidate in the race would have helped quite a bit too. One of Hillary's major problems was that between Trump, the Media, and Hillary, Trump was the most trusted. That simply wouldn't have been the case with Bernie.
.


Was definitely one of the reasons. For me though, it just seemed like Hillary had little appeal to the voters. And here I see a huge issue with the entire Hillary campaign: Even the democratic campaign was focused on Trump. Trump did this, Trump did that, Trump is not fit to be president, Trump is a racist, Trump is a sexist, Trump has a bad temper, Trump cannot handle his Twitter, how should he handle the nuclear code, Trump, Trump, Trump all over the place. After watching lots of campaign adds, the debates and different rallies I knew way more about why Trump should not be elected than why Hillary should be elected.

Of course there were people that voted for her because they liked her. But I feel like lots of people only voted for Hillary because they really disliked Trump and wanted to avoid a Trump presidency. This might give some votes too, but I doubt the mobilizing power was even remotely as big as it could have been with Bernie Sanders as candidate.

{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
November 11 2016 10:38 GMT
#123879
Women across the country are rushing to get IUDs. Or at least, they're tweeting about rushing to get long-term birth control, according to a surge of messages on social media.

They're concerned that the Trump administration might end Obamacare provisions that require insurers to cover intrauterine devices (IUDs) and other contraception, and cut funding for abortion and reproductive health overall. So women are looking for long-term solutions like IUDs: ones that will outlast a presidency. But they may have a bit more time than they think.

They're not just talking about it on social media; they're looking for more information, too. Google Trends showed a massive peak searches for "IUD" "birth control" and "Planned Parenthood" on Wednesday.

The online conversations have left a lot of women wondering how much longer their birth control will be available without copays, as is required under the Affordable Care Act. The short answer is that while memes say women should get their IUDs before Inauguration Day, things might not be quite so urgent. The wheels of government take time to turn, so no one will lose their coverage on Day 1 of the Trump administration.

But women are already acting.

"I booked an appointment with my gynecologist the instant North Carolina went red," Kate McPhillips, a young professional in Boston, posted to her Facebook page Wednesday morning. She's considering the switch to a copper IUD, the type that lasts for 10 to 12 years, "just in case the unimaginable happens."

Dr. Anne Davis, consulting medical director for Physicians for Reproductive Health and an associate professor of clinical obstetrics and gynecology at Columbia University Medical Center in New York City, says that on Wednesday six women called "in a panic" to schedule IUD appointments. Normally, only about one woman calls to book an IUD insertion each day.

"And these women weren't just looking for an appointment somewhere in the future. They wanted one right now. They were very, very scared and distraught that they would lose access to birth control," Davis says.

Others who work in women's' health and reproduction are very concerned about the long-term changes a Trump presidency might bring. "It's an understatement to say that we're nervous," says Dr. Eve Espey, chair of the department of obstetrics and gynecology at the University of New Mexico Health Sciences Center.


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States23172 Posts
November 11 2016 10:40 GMT
#123880
On November 11 2016 19:01 Swisslink wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 11 2016 18:14 GreenHorizons wrote:
On November 11 2016 18:03 Dan HH wrote:
On November 11 2016 17:51 TheYango wrote:
Clinton supporters made the argument for the entire election cycle that she was working toward the same things he was, just that she was a better messenger for them.

The same argument works in reverse--from a pure policy perspective, Bernie isn't particularly more radical than Clinton, he was just easier to trust in terms of actually working toward said goals.

And who knows, maybe Clinton would have won if she stayed more centrist instead of pandering to Bernie's base who she failed to win over significantly more than she would have done by default.

On the other hand if Bernie would have won, as far as I'm concerned it would have been despite being a social-dem rather than because of it. His biggest appeal was the anti-establishment element, electoral reform and trade barriers in particular. The latter being the main reason Trump got elected.


I don't necessarily disagree with that, though I would certainly add being the most trusted and favorable candidate in the race would have helped quite a bit too. One of Hillary's major problems was that between Trump, the Media, and Hillary, Trump was the most trusted. That simply wouldn't have been the case with Bernie.
.


Was definitely one of the reasons. For me though, it just seemed like Hillary had little appeal to the voters. And here I see a huge issue with the entire Hillary campaign: Even the democratic campaign was focused on Trump. Trump did this, Trump did that, Trump is not fit to be president, Trump is a racist, Trump is a sexist, Trump has a bad temper, Trump cannot handle his Twitter, how should he handle the nuclear code, Trump, Trump, Trump all over the place. After watching lots of campaign adds, the debates and different rallies I knew way more about why Trump should not be elected than why Hillary should be elected.

Of course there were people that voted for her because they liked her. But I feel like lots of people only voted for Hillary because they really disliked Trump and wanted to avoid a Trump presidency. This might give some votes too, but I doubt the mobilizing power was even remotely as big as it could have been with Bernie Sanders as candidate.



I called it before Trump even got the nomination, her supporters here and elsewhere denied it and they even kept repeating that "when they go low, we go high" line, then in almost the same breath be going low again. You'll find no shortage of apologists and deniers in corporate media and someone will show some poll saying all of Bernie's supporters (~90%) will vote for her, but considering how low turnout was (despite false turnout predictions everywhere), that was just another example of Hillary taking votes for granted.

No one believed her for good reason. They were screaming from the rafters of how it would be impending doom for Trump to be president, then we see them go, "well if you guys say so, we'll let him destroy the planet".

If Trump was the threat they spent this election telling us, Hillary (actually she had Podesta do it) wouldn't have blew off her supporters and told them to go home so they don't react to her lying to them (yet again) and blowing them off and calling Trump in front of the cameras. She would have said it was actually unacceptable. Obama and Trump wouldn't be having a casual meeting, they would be looking for emergency measures to prevent the end of the world.

They sold us that Trump was the end of the world knowing full well they didn't believe it and people could smell the bullshit from a mile away. Will Trump be bad? If he does/tries what he says, probably. Is Trump dangerous for the world? Every person in power thinks less so than actually preventing him from being president.

So they've left huge populations in utter terror, knowing full well much of their fearmongering was just blowing smoke up peoples ass for votes. Some of us saw through that before they decided they were going to give him the nuclear codes without a fight.

Luckily, the fear manifested in pointless protests glomming on to legitimate ones, then a bunch of trustafarian anarchists take advantage and we have #TrumpRiots.

If Republicans could be more "I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me." and less "If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination" I could see voting for them if the Democrats want to stick with the Clintons.

You'd have to do something about the KKK thinking you're the place for them, but I really don't think that's asking that much.

A blanket public apology with individual apologies to the people he went overboard and the above I could argue that when using the lesser of two evils argument I've been bludgeoned with, Trump's re-election is something I could vote for.

That's how bad the Dems are right now. That bad.
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
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