In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!
NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
On January 01 2013 13:12 {CC}StealthBlue wrote: So both sides agree to kick the can down the road. As long as the last generation gets to keep their free stuff; their kids(my generation and the one after that) can worry about what happens later. Cause you know, fuck us.
Essentially this is what happens. Free stuff, nobody pays for it. Make overtones about the rich paying for it, but spend 5 minutes on the numbers and you will realize that shafting the top 2% is not going to solve anything (and might do some damage along the way). You want Sweden level of government services, you gotta move towards Sweden level of taxation, and no middle income taxpayer is gonna be sheltered in that scenario. You can only deceive for popular opinion's sake for so long.
Our debt is essentially written in USD, which we're printing like they're going out of style. If the world's choice for reserve currency changes, it'll be no different than the other debt-ridden countries that can't print the money to pay the debt.
And that's why Japan and Great Britain are in such huge trouble with their non-reserve currency and their MASSIVE amounts of debt! They're literally BEGGING investors to buy up their debt and suffering such uncontrollable inflation that people are buying food with wheelbarrows full of money!
Wait a second, that's not happening at all. You should probably reevaluate your views on currency and government debt. I understand that it may be to much to ask of you though.
First off, it's the debt in percentage of the GDP that should be the main issue. Secondly, both Japan and GB have a completely different political system than US. Third, both Japan and GB's total debt size doesn't even come close to the US. You really don't know what you are talking about.
Japan has double the debt to GDP we do, and Great Britain isn't too far behind. Neither is most of the industrialized "West."
While Japans debt is 208% of the GDP half of that is owned by the Japanese themselves so while their debt is still pretty high it's not as bad as it looks.
The debt of the UK is 86% of the US 105% and the EU 83%. That's a gap of 20% that's quite a large gap...
But I agree that the issue of public debt is a bit exagerated but that doesn't mean you should just let is build up as fast as it does now and let the next generations pay for it.
More than half of U.S. debt is owned by Americans, too.
I made a mistake sorry, 90% of Japans public debt is held domestically not 50%.
On January 01 2013 13:12 {CC}StealthBlue wrote: So both sides agree to kick the can down the road. As long as the last generation gets to keep their free stuff; their kids(my generation and the one after that) can worry about what happens later. Cause you know, fuck us.
Its a real shame that paul ryan is a republican. If he was a democrat he could probably rally the young (and getting younger) base to ensure the viability of the budget and health care for when they need it.
Dismantling the programs does the exact opposite of ensuring their viability for younger generations.
Hes not trying to dismantle the programs he wants to make it viable past the baby boomer age. The fact that hes the only one anywhere near talking about this should show you that you should learn what hes really trying to do.
It has become conventional wisdom for both parties, though, a sort of neo-TINA. That's the sad part. Even most Democrats will talk about how they think they have better plans to address this inevitable crisis rather than fighting back and calling it a manufactured crisis.
On January 01 2013 13:12 {CC}StealthBlue wrote: So both sides agree to kick the can down the road. As long as the last generation gets to keep their free stuff; their kids(my generation and the one after that) can worry about what happens later. Cause you know, fuck us.
Essentially this is what happens. Free stuff, nobody pays for it. Make overtones about the rich paying for it, but spend 5 minutes on the numbers and you will realize that shafting the top 2% is not going to solve anything (and might do some damage along the way). You want Sweden level of government services, you gotta move towards Sweden level of taxation, and no middle income taxpayer is gonna be sheltered in that scenario. You can only deceive for popular opinion's sake for so long.
Our debt is essentially written in USD, which we're printing like they're going out of style. If the world's choice for reserve currency changes, it'll be no different than the other debt-ridden countries that can't print the money to pay the debt.
And that's why Japan and Great Britain are in such huge trouble with their non-reserve currency and their MASSIVE amounts of debt! They're literally BEGGING investors to buy up their debt and suffering such uncontrollable inflation that people are buying food with wheelbarrows full of money!
Wait a second, that's not happening at all. You should probably reevaluate your views on currency and government debt. I understand that it may be to much to ask of you though.
Japan's economy has been stuck in the mud for 30 years. Lets not follow their lead.
On January 01 2013 13:12 {CC}StealthBlue wrote: So both sides agree to kick the can down the road. As long as the last generation gets to keep their free stuff; their kids(my generation and the one after that) can worry about what happens later. Cause you know, fuck us.
Essentially this is what happens. Free stuff, nobody pays for it. Make overtones about the rich paying for it, but spend 5 minutes on the numbers and you will realize that shafting the top 2% is not going to solve anything (and might do some damage along the way). You want Sweden level of government services, you gotta move towards Sweden level of taxation, and no middle income taxpayer is gonna be sheltered in that scenario. You can only deceive for popular opinion's sake for so long.
Our debt is essentially written in USD, which we're printing like they're going out of style. If the world's choice for reserve currency changes, it'll be no different than the other debt-ridden countries that can't print the money to pay the debt.
And that's why Japan and Great Britain are in such huge trouble with their non-reserve currency and their MASSIVE amounts of debt! They're literally BEGGING investors to buy up their debt and suffering such uncontrollable inflation that people are buying food with wheelbarrows full of money!
Wait a second, that's not happening at all. You should probably reevaluate your views on currency and government debt. I understand that it may be to much to ask of you though.
Japan's economy has been stuck in the mud for 30 years. Lets not follow their lead.
Arguably a big part of the modern japanese economic problems stem from the Great Hanshin earthquake in Kobe 1995 and the 2011 Tõhoku earthquake.
Apparently Eric Cantor (House Majority Leader) opposes the Senate deal, so they are going to have to go about making amendments and then kicking it back to the Senate, so that in the end there will be no deal by the time markets open on Wednesday.
Wonder if the guy is shorting shit again so he can make money on the markets flipping out, or whatever he did last time when he fucked the debt ceiling negotiations up but got a nice profit in the financial markets as a result.
So the democrats make a offer that the senate accepts and that angers the actual left wing of their own party, and the house is posturing to not pass it. So who elected grover norquist?
On January 01 2013 13:12 {CC}StealthBlue wrote: So both sides agree to kick the can down the road. As long as the last generation gets to keep their free stuff; their kids(my generation and the one after that) can worry about what happens later. Cause you know, fuck us.
Essentially this is what happens. Free stuff, nobody pays for it. Make overtones about the rich paying for it, but spend 5 minutes on the numbers and you will realize that shafting the top 2% is not going to solve anything (and might do some damage along the way). You want Sweden level of government services, you gotta move towards Sweden level of taxation, and no middle income taxpayer is gonna be sheltered in that scenario. You can only deceive for popular opinion's sake for so long.
Our debt is essentially written in USD, which we're printing like they're going out of style. If the world's choice for reserve currency changes, it'll be no different than the other debt-ridden countries that can't print the money to pay the debt.
And that's why Japan and Great Britain are in such huge trouble with their non-reserve currency and their MASSIVE amounts of debt! They're literally BEGGING investors to buy up their debt and suffering such uncontrollable inflation that people are buying food with wheelbarrows full of money!
Wait a second, that's not happening at all. You should probably reevaluate your views on currency and government debt. I understand that it may be to much to ask of you though.
First off, it's the debt in percentage of the GDP that should be the main issue. Secondly, both Japan and GB have a completely different political system than US. Third, both Japan and GB's total debt size doesn't even come close to the US. You really don't know what you are talking about.
Japan has double the debt to GDP we do, and Great Britain isn't too far behind. Neither is most of the industrialized "West."
While Japans debt is 208% of the GDP half of that is owned by the Japanese themselves so while their debt is still pretty high it's not as bad as it looks.
The debt of the UK is 86% of the US 105% and the EU 83%. That's a gap of 20% that's quite a large gap...
But I agree that the issue of public debt is a bit exagerated but that doesn't mean you should just let is build up as fast as it does now and let the next generations pay for it.
More than half of U.S. debt is owned by Americans, too.
I made a mistake sorry, 90% of Japans public debt is held domestically not 50%.
On January 02 2013 05:29 EtherealDeath wrote: Apparently Eric Cantor (House Majority Leader) opposes the Senate deal, so they are going to have to go about making amendments and then kicking it back to the Senate, so that in the end there will be no deal by the time markets open on Wednesday.
Wonder if the guy is shorting shit again so he can make money on the markets flipping out, or whatever he did last time when he fucked the debt ceiling negotiations up but got a nice profit in the financial markets as a result.
Politically, this would be a big win for Democrats if House Republicans kill this bill.
For example, it could then be easily argued: "Crazy, uncompromising House Republicans reject bipartisan senate bill, plunging US over fiscal cliff".
On January 02 2013 05:29 EtherealDeath wrote: Apparently Eric Cantor (House Majority Leader) opposes the Senate deal, so they are going to have to go about making amendments and then kicking it back to the Senate, so that in the end there will be no deal by the time markets open on Wednesday.
Wonder if the guy is shorting shit again so he can make money on the markets flipping out, or whatever he did last time when he fucked the debt ceiling negotiations up but got a nice profit in the financial markets as a result.
Politically, this would be a big win for Democrats if House Republicans kill this bill.
For example, it could then be easily argued: "Crazy, uncompromising House Republicans reject bipartisan senate bill, plunging US over fiscal cliff".
Usually when people say Bipartisan its a majority of one party and 4 of another. This is the first major thing I have ever seen get that many votes. If they reject that or change it which would effectively kill it then they will get killed and on thursday when new congress convenes it will pass again but probably worse for them.
On January 02 2013 05:29 EtherealDeath wrote: Apparently Eric Cantor (House Majority Leader) opposes the Senate deal, so they are going to have to go about making amendments and then kicking it back to the Senate, so that in the end there will be no deal by the time markets open on Wednesday.
Wonder if the guy is shorting shit again so he can make money on the markets flipping out, or whatever he did last time when he fucked the debt ceiling negotiations up but got a nice profit in the financial markets as a result.
Politically, this would be a big win for Democrats if House Republicans kill this bill.
The problem is that politically, most of the republican tax nuts are doing what is the politically correct thing for them and don't exactly care much for the national opinion. Even though the election is over, Nate Silver makes that case convincingly (link): The amount of republicans that are in districts that are vulnerable to democratic challenges is much smaller than the amount of republicans that are vulnerable to more 'right wing' primary challenges, which is how moderate republicans in congress seem to die.
Even though it might move national polls, its not going to do anything for the situation those congressmen are in. They're doing what they are supposed to be doing: representing their narrow, gerrymandered district. Compromise becomes impossible and instead the US keeps limping from fiscal crisis to fiscal crisis.
most of the stuff being said about the bill is probably just posturing before they actually get down to it. Remember even obama voted against raising the debt limit once and no one seriously (or at least anyone who should be taken seriously) thinks that he wanted the government to default on its loans.
The best thing for democrats to do from this would be to have the republicans split hard on the vote. They should if they have any self respect hope as much as everyone else that the bill pass's but if the vote gets split its going to cause a huge rift in GOP power in the house and allow the dems to pick off a ton of votes from weak republicans.
Its not like republicans don't have a history of passing tax raise's and then getting shafted hard when it comes to democrats never holding up their end on spending. Wouldn't really fault them for it seeing how much worse they gotta know its gotta get for them before things actually get better for republicans.
Gona stay up and see what the vote is like tonight. Shouldn't be too much longer now.
On January 02 2013 05:29 EtherealDeath wrote: Apparently Eric Cantor (House Majority Leader) opposes the Senate deal, so they are going to have to go about making amendments and then kicking it back to the Senate, so that in the end there will be no deal by the time markets open on Wednesday.
Wonder if the guy is shorting shit again so he can make money on the markets flipping out, or whatever he did last time when he fucked the debt ceiling negotiations up but got a nice profit in the financial markets as a result.
It should be apparently obvious to everyone by now that the main focus of this president is not about saving the US economy - he knows it's not at the breaking point yet, but rather about seizing this opportunity to dismantle the opposition party. Whether the republican controlled house passes this bill, or any bill to avert the fiscal cliff for that matter, is not really the point. Republicans are already in a position to lose in the political battle at the end regardless of what they do now.
Both parties have always had it their highest objective to hurt the other party more then anything else. Its not an evil thing its just good game theory to ground your strategy sessions around.
It passed btw not by that much but more then enough. Both sides have their pound of flesh out of this and will have to work forward from here to get themselves in a better position for 2014.
On January 02 2013 05:29 EtherealDeath wrote: Apparently Eric Cantor (House Majority Leader) opposes the Senate deal, so they are going to have to go about making amendments and then kicking it back to the Senate, so that in the end there will be no deal by the time markets open on Wednesday.
Wonder if the guy is shorting shit again so he can make money on the markets flipping out, or whatever he did last time when he fucked the debt ceiling negotiations up but got a nice profit in the financial markets as a result.
It should be apparently obvious to everyone by now that the main focus of this president is not about saving the US economy - he knows it's not at the breaking point yet, but rather about seizing this opportunity to dismantle the opposition party. Whether the republican controlled house passes this bill, or any bill to avert the fiscal cliff for that matter, is not really the point. Republicans are already in a position to lose in the political battle at the end regardless of what they do now.
We saw Obama try to play a more centrist role back with the health care reform debacle and we all saw how that turned out.
On January 02 2013 12:03 Sermokala wrote: most of the stuff being said about the bill is probably just posturing before they actually get down to it. Remember even obama voted against raising the debt limit once and no one seriously (or at least anyone who should be taken seriously) thinks that he wanted the government to default on its loans.
The best thing for democrats to do from this would be to have the republicans split hard on the vote. They should if they have any self respect hope as much as everyone else that the bill pass's but if the vote gets split its going to cause a huge rift in GOP power in the house and allow the dems to pick off a ton of votes from weak republicans.
Its not like republicans don't have a history of passing tax raise's and then getting shafted hard when it comes to democrats never holding up their end on spending. Wouldn't really fault them for it seeing how much worse they gotta know its gotta get for them before things actually get better for republicans.
Gona stay up and see what the vote is like tonight. Shouldn't be too much longer now.
150 republlicans against and 85 republicans for. As far as a split goes, this is a big one.
As for the reasoning from the 150 republicans, some might have held high their pledge with Grover Norquist and some might have voted with other adverse deals in mind while actually being of another opinion. That fact is making the split even deeper!
Weak republicans voting for the compromise or extremist teabaggers voting against to hold the country hostage on their wacky wet dreams is the exact same thing.
Next will be a deal about the spending cuts and that one will be even harder for Obama to negotiate since the republicans already prooved that they have a plan able to pass the house! Only moonshine will be the new senate taking over and therefore hopefully a less extreme deadlock than what has happened for the last 4 years!
Out of pure curiosity I have to ask: Does this fiscal debate thing cause ANYONE WHATSOEVER to even THINK about changing the legislative system to something that works (I mean of cause people in politics not other people.)
On January 02 2013 21:48 TotalNightmare wrote: Out of pure curiosity I have to ask: Does this fiscal debate thing cause ANYONE WHATSOEVER to even THINK about changing the legislative system to something that works (I mean of cause people in politics not other people.)
Eh I still think its better then the parliament system that other countries have. I'd rather actually vote for my top leader and be able to have a government (even ineffective) when one side doesn't get enough or has to murder its political capital by pandering to less popular and successful parties.
On January 02 2013 12:03 Sermokala wrote: most of the stuff being said about the bill is probably just posturing before they actually get down to it. Remember even obama voted against raising the debt limit once and no one seriously (or at least anyone who should be taken seriously) thinks that he wanted the government to default on its loans.
The best thing for democrats to do from this would be to have the republicans split hard on the vote. They should if they have any self respect hope as much as everyone else that the bill pass's but if the vote gets split its going to cause a huge rift in GOP power in the house and allow the dems to pick off a ton of votes from weak republicans.
Its not like republicans don't have a history of passing tax raise's and then getting shafted hard when it comes to democrats never holding up their end on spending. Wouldn't really fault them for it seeing how much worse they gotta know its gotta get for them before things actually get better for republicans.
Gona stay up and see what the vote is like tonight. Shouldn't be too much longer now.
150 republlicans against and 85 republicans for. As far as a split goes, this is a big one.
As for the reasoning from the 150 republicans, some might have held high their pledge with Grover Norquist and some might have voted with other adverse deals in mind while actually being of another opinion. That fact is making the split even deeper!
Weak republicans voting for the compromise or extremist teabaggers voting against to hold the country hostage on their wacky wet dreams is the exact same thing.
Next will be a deal about the spending cuts and that one will be even harder for Obama to negotiate since the republicans already proved that they have a plan able to pass the house! Only moonshine will be the new senate taking over and therefore hopefully a less extreme deadlock than what has happened for the last 4 years!
Well we're gona have to see how the new congress shakes out. If bohner can keep enough loyalists in line to keep power Hes going to be able to negotiate on good faith with democrats and get bills though now that hes shown he can fight off extremist threats. If someone else gets the speaker ship its going to be a very bad couple of years with a fighting extremist faction of the GOP in the house not wanting to do anything with democrats and loyalist republicans trying their best to come off as not being apart of the problem in order to not lose their seat like they should in that situation.
On January 02 2013 21:48 TotalNightmare wrote: Out of pure curiosity I have to ask: Does this fiscal debate thing cause ANYONE WHATSOEVER to even THINK about changing the legislative system to something that works (I mean of cause people in politics not other people.)
Eh I still think its better then the parliament system that other countries have. I'd rather actually vote for my top leader and be able to have a government (even ineffective) when one side doesn't get enough or has to murder its political capital by pandering to less popular and successful parties.
On January 02 2013 12:03 Sermokala wrote: most of the stuff being said about the bill is probably just posturing before they actually get down to it. Remember even obama voted against raising the debt limit once and no one seriously (or at least anyone who should be taken seriously) thinks that he wanted the government to default on its loans.
The best thing for democrats to do from this would be to have the republicans split hard on the vote. They should if they have any self respect hope as much as everyone else that the bill pass's but if the vote gets split its going to cause a huge rift in GOP power in the house and allow the dems to pick off a ton of votes from weak republicans.
Its not like republicans don't have a history of passing tax raise's and then getting shafted hard when it comes to democrats never holding up their end on spending. Wouldn't really fault them for it seeing how much worse they gotta know its gotta get for them before things actually get better for republicans.
Gona stay up and see what the vote is like tonight. Shouldn't be too much longer now.
150 republlicans against and 85 republicans for. As far as a split goes, this is a big one.
As for the reasoning from the 150 republicans, some might have held high their pledge with Grover Norquist and some might have voted with other adverse deals in mind while actually being of another opinion. That fact is making the split even deeper!
Weak republicans voting for the compromise or extremist teabaggers voting against to hold the country hostage on their wacky wet dreams is the exact same thing.
Next will be a deal about the spending cuts and that one will be even harder for Obama to negotiate since the republicans already proved that they have a plan able to pass the house! Only moonshine will be the new senate taking over and therefore hopefully a less extreme deadlock than what has happened for the last 4 years!
Well we're gona have to see how the new congress shakes out. If bohner can keep enough loyalists in line to keep power Hes going to be able to negotiate on good faith with democrats and get bills though now that hes shown he can fight off extremist threats. If someone else gets the speaker ship its going to be a very bad couple of years with a fighting extremist faction of the GOP in the house not wanting to do anything with democrats and loyalist republicans trying their best to come off as not being apart of the problem in order to not lose their seat like they should in that situation.
Aren't the Republicans already doing that with their Tea Party "coalition"? The method is just different.
I'm going to introduce a subject not related to the Fiscal Cliff.
So Boehner is apparently getting a lot of criticism for not holding a vote on a Superstorm Sandy relief bill. Unsurprisingly, even Republicans who represent areas effected by Sandy are rather critical of him.
I personally agree with them. How is it that 2 months after Sandy that we still don't have a relief bill for those effected?
EPT
