In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!
NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
On October 09 2016 06:50 Danglars wrote: I should drag you into my big imposing law firm and offer you free representation should ... I don't know ... someone leak your name and Bill Clinton's in a future scandal. We'll see how bull-headed you are then. Hillary apologists everywhere. The ridiculous part of you and others' ridiculous behavior is that you'll hear less and less good faith attempts to persuade you otherwise when you demonstrate you wouldn't even be persuaded had he raped someone in front of you in broad daylight if his wife claimed it didn't happen the next day.
I gladly believe that Bill is a pretty bad husband and that he's had tons of affairs, but there's never been any proof of him actually raping someone. And I'm not just talking about him being let off the leash on some technicality, it's just never been proven that he has assaulted somebody.
In this case we have Trump on audio bragging about his assaults, which is why this is sticking.
I still don't understand what this bizarre "locker room talk" stuff is.
Do people think everyone actually talks this way to people in private? Do people think women talk this way to people in private about men? If so, no wonder people don't care about acting like assholes and think rape culture is a complete fiction (rather than an agenda sometimes exaggerated based in reality)-it's normal to those people.
I don't think my dad would ever say something like this. Ever.
On October 09 2016 06:50 Danglars wrote: I should drag you into my big imposing law firm and offer you free representation should ... I don't know ... someone leak your name and Bill Clinton's in a future scandal. We'll see how bull-headed you are then. Hillary apologists everywhere. The ridiculous part of you and others' ridiculous behavior is that you'll hear less and less good faith attempts to persuade you otherwise when you demonstrate you wouldn't even be persuaded had he raped someone in front of you in broad daylight if his wife claimed it didn't happen the next day.
I gladly believe that Bill is a pretty bad husband and that he's had tons of affairs, but there's never been any proof of him actually raping someone. And I'm not just talking about him being let off the leash on some technicality, it's just never been proven that he has assaulted somebody.
In this case we have Trump on audio bragging about his assaults, which is why this is sticking.
This is a great reminder of Chomsky's point about concision in Television media. The various Bill accusations are muddy, old, with unreliable witnesses and plenty of strong denials. With DJT, we have him on tape saying in graphic, entertaining detail:
Trump: "I’ve gotta use some Tic Tacs, just in case I start kissing her. You know I’m automatically attracted to beautiful — I just start kissing them. It’s like a magnet. Just kiss. I don’t even wait. And when you’re a star they let you do it. You can do anything."
Unknown, but apparently Bush: "Whatever you want." Trump: "Grab them by the p---y. You can do anything."
Concision means you need to be able to make your point within 30 seconds. DJT's line fits right in and has great visuals.
Enough! Donald Trump should not be President. He should withdraw. As a Republican, I hope to support someone who has the dignity and stature to run for the highest office in the greatest democracy on earth.
@Danglars:
On October 09 2016 06:50 Danglars wrote: Holy check, just when you think everybody's on low-power analysis mode, someone accurately calls it standard locker room nonsense. And can see a focus on 11 years ago is a product of the PC movement to boot--while believing a broad condemnation of sexism and anti-women legislation is in order.
I don't know what kind of comments you make in locker rooms, but I've never met anyone bragging about assaulting women.
On October 09 2016 06:23 Danglars wrote: See: He's not running for Pope, and his opponent is bad or worse on sexual ethics. I would say it's self-explanatory, but this election has done something to Democrat supporters, without the benefit of hindsight to see themselves doing it.
And none of that is a defense of the idiotic things Scott Adams said, which you set out to defend.
On October 09 2016 06:23 Danglars wrote: See: He's not running for Pope, and his opponent is bad or worse on sexual ethics. I would say it's self-explanatory, but this election has done something to Democrat supporters, without the benefit of hindsight to see themselves doing it.
Coming from the Republicans who still (still!) are bending over backwards to defend Trump.
On October 09 2016 06:47 Liquid`Drone wrote: Suffice to say that I disagree with your characterization of people you disagree with politically. I'm fairly certain I'm way more in agreement with you than Mitt Romney with regards to women's rights, but I think he genuinely wants to make the world a better place - also for women - and his pov on abortion, while I think societally disastrous, I also think comes from a line of genuinely thinking that saving unborn lives matters more than women's ownership of their own bodies in this regard- and not because he doesn't care about women's ownership of their own bodies, but because he really thinks abortion is morally abhorrent.
Further, I really think part of Trump's success can be attributed to people on the right wing having been pushed, mocked and belittled by liberals as they have lost social issue battle after social issue battle, and now they thought they had a chance to give us a grand old middle finger face-fuck. I'd like us to be more respectable in the future (while still winning social issue battle after social issue battle) so we don't inspire the kind of vindictiveness that leads to a possible president Trump.
They're different shades of bad. Trump is crude, he is a con artist, he is ignorant and has a violent streak. Romney might be vastly less dangerous, but still is a vulture capitalist who appears outwardly respectable, but who always aligns with the corporate lobbies, the traditionalists elements that oppose civil liberties, the neo-conservative war mongering faction etc/. In terms of computer game terminology, one is chaotic evil, the other is lawful evil.
On October 09 2016 05:50 Grumbels wrote: I wouldn't normally say this, but this is honestly political correctness gone mad. Trump says idiotic sexist things every day that ought to have disqualified him long ago, but because he broke some taboo 11 years ago there now is pressure on him to stand down. What utter moral hypocrisy. This by the same group of people that have a national platform of "traditional values" which is a mask for patriarchy, and are therefore fundamentally hostile towards women's rights.
But fine, if Trump steps down I'm happy.
I hear a lot of crude low brow humor form my male acquaintances about objecting women and this is just on a whole nother lvl. I dont know about you but sexual assault is not just little taboo. There is a big difference between say a girl has nice rack and i want to have a piece of that to i want to go over and grope that girl whether she likes it or not. The former being banter you might her between to male friends or coworkers with lather being what trump was suggesting.
Enough! Donald Trump should not be President. He should withdraw. As a Republican, I hope to support someone who has the dignity and stature to run for the highest office in the greatest democracy on earth.
On October 09 2016 06:50 Danglars wrote: Holy check, just when you think everybody's on low-power analysis mode, someone accurately calls it standard locker room nonsense. And can see a focus on 11 years ago is a product of the PC movement to boot--while believing a broad condemnation of sexism and anti-women legislation is in order.
I don't know what kind of comments you make in locker rooms, but I've never met anyone bragging about assaulting women in locker rooms.
That's because you have probably never been around high profile celebrities who have women throwing themselves at them at the flick of a finger. Lets be real, Trump is no saint, and probably has lower ethical standards than the average american, leading him to easily succumb to temptation. His point is similar to what he said about shooting someone in the middle of the street, with his supporters still willing to support him. His attitudes are simply a result of his life experience, which makes complete sense.
Women and men both objectify the shit out of each other in private conversations. That's the result of having a monkey brain with a layer of rationality added on top.
Enough! Donald Trump should not be President. He should withdraw. As a Republican, I hope to support someone who has the dignity and stature to run for the highest office in the greatest democracy on earth.
@Danglars:
On October 09 2016 06:50 Danglars wrote: Holy check, just when you think everybody's on low-power analysis mode, someone accurately calls it standard locker room nonsense. And can see a focus on 11 years ago is a product of the PC movement to boot--while believing a broad condemnation of sexism and anti-women legislation is in order.
I don't know what kind of comments you make in locker rooms, but I've never met anyone bragging about assaulting women in locker rooms.
That's because you have probably never been around high profile celebrities who have women throwing themselves at them at the flick of a finger. Lets be real, Trump is no saint, and probably has lower ethical standards than the average american, leading him to easily succumb to temptation. His point is similar to what he said about shooting someone in the middle of the street, with his supporters still willing to support him. His attitudes are simply a result of his life experience, which makes complete sense.
Women and men both objectify the shit out of each other in private conversations. That's the result of having a monkey brain with a layer of rationality added on top.
Oh. It's not locker room talk. It's high profile celebrity low ethical standards locker room talk. I see. That makes it all better, he should have tweeted that.
On October 09 2016 07:20 biology]major wrote: Women and men both objectify the shit out of each other in private conversations. That's the result of having a monkey brain with a layer of rationality added on top.
This is some Rudy Giuliani "everybody cheats" level of projection. Nope not everybody talks like that, not even in private.
Enough! Donald Trump should not be President. He should withdraw. As a Republican, I hope to support someone who has the dignity and stature to run for the highest office in the greatest democracy on earth.
@Danglars:
On October 09 2016 06:50 Danglars wrote: Holy check, just when you think everybody's on low-power analysis mode, someone accurately calls it standard locker room nonsense. And can see a focus on 11 years ago is a product of the PC movement to boot--while believing a broad condemnation of sexism and anti-women legislation is in order.
I don't know what kind of comments you make in locker rooms, but I've never met anyone bragging about assaulting women in locker rooms.
That's because you have probably never been around high profile celebrities who have women throwing themselves at them at the flick of a finger. Lets be real, Trump is no saint, and probably has lower ethical standards than the average american, leading him to easily succumb to temptation. His point is similar to what he said about shooting someone in the middle of the street, with his supporters still willing to support him. His attitudes are simply a result of his life experience, which makes complete sense.
Women and men both objectify the shit out of each other in private conversations. That's the result of having a monkey brain with a layer of rationality added on top.
Objectifying women in private conversations is one thing (Trump did it before with the Apprentice stuff. and its still not a good thing). But this is Trump casually mentioning Sexual Assault. Thats a whole different ballpark and as seen by the reaction it draws. It utterly no acceptable, celebrity or not.
On October 09 2016 07:01 TheTenthDoc wrote: I still don't understand what this bizarre "locker room talk" stuff is.
Do people think everyone actually talks this way to people in private? Do people think women talk this way to people in private about men? If so, no wonder people don't care about acting like assholes and think rape culture is a complete fiction (rather than an agenda sometimes exaggerated based in reality)-it's normal to those people.
I don't think my dad would ever say something like this. Ever.
The local media here constantly airs the "grab them by the ****" comment, which is mainly what I was thinking about when I said it's locker room talk because men often joke about assaulting women without necessarily being actual offenders themselves*. That is the sort of crude, provocative, "edgy" comment, which when made by a lying and delusional braggart like Trump need not be taken as an actual confession to sexual assault. Especially given that earlier news articles relating Trump to sexism and assault were ignored or defended by the GOP. I just find it silly that when he brags about sexual assault on camera that is disqualifying, but when there is actual testimony that he raped his wife nobody cares.
Nope, still disagree. 'Evil' isn't part of the equation, it's a question of what values are favored combined with beliefs or knowledge regarding what political actions leads to what outcome. When it comes to Trump, I think he doesn't actually care about anybody but himself. With Romney, I disagree regarding societal vision/how to get there, but I do believe he's genuinely trying to make the world a better place.
In terms of how these two individuals would impact society, positively or negatively, it's very possible that Romney would be 'worse'. But when you define people as 'evil' based on these criteria, imo you're contributing to the immensely negative and hateful political climate necessary for someone like Trump to ever have a chance.
Enough! Donald Trump should not be President. He should withdraw. As a Republican, I hope to support someone who has the dignity and stature to run for the highest office in the greatest democracy on earth.
@Danglars:
On October 09 2016 06:50 Danglars wrote: Holy check, just when you think everybody's on low-power analysis mode, someone accurately calls it standard locker room nonsense. And can see a focus on 11 years ago is a product of the PC movement to boot--while believing a broad condemnation of sexism and anti-women legislation is in order.
I don't know what kind of comments you make in locker rooms, but I've never met anyone bragging about assaulting women in locker rooms.
That's because you have probably never been around high profile celebrities who have women throwing themselves at them at the flick of a finger. Lets be real, Trump is no saint, and probably has lower ethical standards than the average american, leading him to easily succumb to temptation. His point is similar to what he said about shooting someone in the middle of the street, with his supporters still willing to support him. His attitudes are simply a result of his life experience, which makes complete sense.
Women and men both objectify the shit out of each other in private conversations. That's the result of having a monkey brain with a layer of rationality added on top.
Objectifying women in private conversations is one thing (Trump did it before with the Apprentice stuff. and its still not a good thing). But this is Trump casually mentioning Sexual Assault. Thats a whole different ballpark and as seen by the reaction it draws. It utterly no acceptable, celebrity or not.
I am not defending him, just explaining why. He is a person with already low bar of ethics while being tested with levels of temptation only a high profile celebrity can attain. On top of that, he has learned from experience that he can literally do anything and still attract women. He is saying they LIKE IT, not that he is forcing himself on people. It's a different ball game, easy to talk about being ethically consistent when you don't have the same level of temptation knocking on your door every moment.
On October 09 2016 07:25 Liquid`Drone wrote: Nope, still disagree. 'Evil' isn't part of the equation, it's a question of what values are favored combined with beliefs or knowledge regarding what political actions leads to what outcome. When it comes to Trump, I think he doesn't actually care about anybody but himself. With Romney, I disagree regarding societal vision/how to get there, but I do believe he's genuinely trying to make the world a better place.
In terms of how these two individuals would impact society, positively or negatively, it's very possible that Romney would be 'worse'. But when you define people as 'evil' based on these criteria, imo you're contributing to the immensely negative and hateful political climate necessary for someone like Trump to ever have a chance.
This seems kind of naive. You evaluate politicians based on their performance, if Romney aligns with all the worst sort of elements in the political culture and has an economic platform which more or less consists of serfdom for all but the wealthiest 0.0000000000001%, he is a dangerous politician. He might not throw nuclear weapons on Syria, like Trump is itching to do, but he is still dangerous regardless of whether he is sincere in his belief system (which by the way consists of a cosmology that puts Christian white men in business & finance at the top, how very sincerely un-selfish).
Btw, for anyone in Europe it should be obvious that the GOP is a nihilist cult that is the literally biggest threat to the USA and by extension the world, given their militarism, their denial of global warming etc. There is a reason for why the polarization happened, and it's not because the GOP is a harmless bunch of kittens.
On October 09 2016 07:20 biology]major wrote: Women and men both objectify the shit out of each other in private conversations. That's the result of having a monkey brain with a layer of rationality added on top.
This is some Rudy Giuliani "everybody cheats" level of projection. Nope not everybody talks like that, not even in private.
Ya personally I can't remember any situation in my life when I talked about wanting to have sexual relation with someone (well outside of conversation with that said person).
EPT
