|
Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. |
On September 14 2016 04:33 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2016 04:28 hunts wrote:On September 14 2016 04:21 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 14 2016 04:10 Plansix wrote:
It’s almost like those are completely separate issues that cannot be quickly addressed by just shifting around the money and giving it to Flint. In fact, I don’t think that would be within the power of the executive branch to just dump a fat check onto Flint to fix the water. Or that the money would do any good, since I don’t they have a plant to fix the water supply in place yet. Who said anything about the executive branch? Flint is in an emergency where significant portions of the population were/may still be getting poisoned. The fact is we just don't care enough to do much about it. Israel however, we care enough about to hand over the largest aid package in history. Which iirc re-raises some questions about giving aid to nuclear countries that haven't signed onto the NPT as well. Are you aware that some things take a certain amount of time to do, regardless of how much money you pump into it? Yeah, it took them over a year just to admit they were poisoning their population. If it were wealthy white kids/nieces/nephews/cousins spending years without access to clean running water, even if their poison water is some of the most expensive water in the country, (on top of covering up the mass poisonings) there would be heads rolling and there wouldn't be poison water running in their taps. This "oh it's not a pressing issue" stuff always comes from those who aren't experiencing the problem themselves.
Of course I agree that the fact that it took them so long to admit it is horrible and that all the people involved should be jailed, I'm just saying that it's possible that the fix for it is something that can't be sped up by throwing money at it.
I disagree about your assertion thst race matters here. I believe wealth does, but a wealthy community would get a better treatment than a poor community regardless of race. There really is no good reason for you to throw in the line about white.
|
On September 14 2016 04:40 hunts wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2016 04:33 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 14 2016 04:28 hunts wrote:On September 14 2016 04:21 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 14 2016 04:10 Plansix wrote:
It’s almost like those are completely separate issues that cannot be quickly addressed by just shifting around the money and giving it to Flint. In fact, I don’t think that would be within the power of the executive branch to just dump a fat check onto Flint to fix the water. Or that the money would do any good, since I don’t they have a plant to fix the water supply in place yet. Who said anything about the executive branch? Flint is in an emergency where significant portions of the population were/may still be getting poisoned. The fact is we just don't care enough to do much about it. Israel however, we care enough about to hand over the largest aid package in history. Which iirc re-raises some questions about giving aid to nuclear countries that haven't signed onto the NPT as well. Are you aware that some things take a certain amount of time to do, regardless of how much money you pump into it? Yeah, it took them over a year just to admit they were poisoning their population. If it were wealthy white kids/nieces/nephews/cousins spending years without access to clean running water, even if their poison water is some of the most expensive water in the country, (on top of covering up the mass poisonings) there would be heads rolling and there wouldn't be poison water running in their taps. This "oh it's not a pressing issue" stuff always comes from those who aren't experiencing the problem themselves. Of course I agree that the fact that it took them so long to admit it is horrible and that all the people involved should be jailed, I'm just saying that it's possible that the fix for it is something that can't be sped up by throwing money at it. I disagree about your assertion thst race matters here. I believe wealth does, but a wealthy community would get a better treatment than a poor community regardless of race. There really is no good reason for you to throw in the line about white.
It's a not a choice of "throwing money at it" or what were doing now. It's just not getting treated like the emergency it is because the people it's impacting aren't valued by too much of our society. You can plug your ears and hum about race not mattering, but it won't make it true.
People would flip their shits if they had poison water for years, couldn't drink, make ice, shower, garden, have their kids play in pools, etc... But since it's happening to "those people over there", it's just too hard to fix or hold people accountable. "Don't you know this stuff takes time", as if we're not perfectly capable of expediting the situation, like we would if the people impacted were different.
The idea that "we don't have the money/time" is simply a lie, the reality is "it's not our priority" and we shouldn't continue to hide from that reality.
|
With regards to poisoning water,
There is a zero percent chance that this same issue would have taken as long to fix if it was in San Francisco, Portland, Seattle, Chicago or any other "big name" city. It would have taken 1 week for them to start ripping out every pipe and it'd all be done in less than a month. This should have been emergency mode, Katrina'esque shit. Hundreds of children being given a 100% chance of being mentally deficient is downright fucking nuts. Extremely sad situation.
|
I am sort of in awe why the city has not be taken over by the State or Federal Government for massive incompetence. If a town fails that hard around here, we just put that shit is receivership and everyone loses their ability to decide things. It happened to Central Falls due to corruption, where they padlocked city hall and froze all the cities funds. And Springfield due to an inability to run their schools without bouncing teacher’s paychecks.
|
Just buy bottled sparkling water like you do when you go to vacation in europe. Easy.
|
On September 14 2016 05:07 Mohdoo wrote:
With regards to poisoning water,
There is a zero percent chance that this same issue would have taken as long to fix if it was in San Francisco, Portland, Seattle, Chicago or any other "big name" city. It would have taken 1 week for them to start ripping out every pipe and it'd all be done in less than a month. This should have been emergency mode, Katrina'esque shit. Hundreds of children being given a 100% chance of being mentally deficient is downright fucking nuts. Extremely sad situation.
I'm in agreement with you, but this is a vast oversimplification of the work required to completely replace a drinking water distribution system. Once they actually do get down to business, it will take a lot longer than a month, depending on how much money is eventually thrown at it.
|
However, ultimately Trump wins because his entire platform is about addressing the concerns of marginalized groups that Hillary has either insulted directly, or marginalized with nominal support that does not translate to policy. His policy may not be the best for carrying out the change he promises but his core base of support is not without cause (and it's not just "racists w/e" either).
Brutal, Legallord. Absolutely brutal.
I dislike the GOP for nearly all the reasons you don't. The flight 93 rationale (minus diagnosis) pretty much outlined my reluctant conservative vote. But anybody that can see past the pandering with its asinine "but Hillary is on your side on this issue" qualifies for respectful disagreement and lifting the debate every day. It's a good direction.
|
On September 14 2016 05:12 Plansix wrote:
I am sort of in awe why the city has not be taken over by the State or Federal Government for massive incompetence. If a town fails that hard around here, we just put that shit is receivership and everyone loses their ability to decide things. It happened to Central Falls due to corruption, where they padlocked city hall and froze all the cities funds. And Springfield due to an inability to run their schools without bouncing teacher’s paychecks.
It was a long while ago due to financial problems. It tried to fix these financial problems by switching their water supply from detriot which was really expensive to their own link to the great lakes. But Detroit found out about this and stopped their plan which led to them taking water from the local river.
It would probably be fixed if they went back to detriot water but that would require politicians to work togeather.
|
On September 14 2016 05:20 ZasZ. wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2016 05:07 Mohdoo wrote:
With regards to poisoning water,
There is a zero percent chance that this same issue would have taken as long to fix if it was in San Francisco, Portland, Seattle, Chicago or any other "big name" city. It would have taken 1 week for them to start ripping out every pipe and it'd all be done in less than a month. This should have been emergency mode, Katrina'esque shit. Hundreds of children being given a 100% chance of being mentally deficient is downright fucking nuts. Extremely sad situation. I'm in agreement with you, but this is a vast oversimplification of the work required to completely replace a drinking water distribution system. Once they actually do get down to business, it will take a lot longer than a month, depending on how much money is eventually thrown at it.
I'm not saying it would necessarily be totally done in a month. I do not work in industrial engineering or whatever that falls under. I admit my ignorance. But I am saying that it would be an immediate "all hands on deck" situation where there would no longer be a human/financial component to delays. Instead, we see people working around "reasonable" timelines and trying to stay efficient. When people's brains are getting damaged, that kind of negligence and disregard for human life only happens when the people can't defend themselves.
Where I work, there are certain escalations that take place where anyone who can effectively help on an issue is pulled from their other projects. Other deadlines are suddenly a zero issue because something is REALLY broken and REALLY needs to get fixed. We have also seen this in government. But we are not seeing that happen now. We are seeing a definite escalation, but that escalation is not nearly proportional or appropriate. If this happened in a city I listed, the attention would be enormous and this would already be at the point of maximum human/financial intervention.
|
well, it's not like there's huge ongoing danger; iirc now they're just shipping in good water for everything. and just having noone use the taps.
though I agree they should totally be fixing it faster.
|
I think Mohdoo is on point that if this was any other city but the impoverished City of Flint, right next to the ongoing dumpster fire that is Detroit, this would have been handled with much greater speed.
|
On September 14 2016 05:38 Sermokala wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2016 05:12 Plansix wrote:
I am sort of in awe why the city has not be taken over by the State or Federal Government for massive incompetence. If a town fails that hard around here, we just put that shit is receivership and everyone loses their ability to decide things. It happened to Central Falls due to corruption, where they padlocked city hall and froze all the cities funds. And Springfield due to an inability to run their schools without bouncing teacher’s paychecks. It was a long while ago due to financial problems. It tried to fix these financial problems by switching their water supply from detriot which was really expensive to their own link to the great lakes. But Detroit found out about this and stopped their plan which led to them taking water from the local river. It would probably be fixed if they went back to detriot water but that would require politicians to work togeather.
I'm not an expert in this whatsoever, but I believe they can't switch back to Detroit's water any longer. To the best of my understanding, the lead pipes initially had a coating (deposit, perhaps) on the inside that prevented lead from getting into the water. This coating was able to stand up to fairly clean water from Detroit. The river, however, was highly polluted. The river water was much more acidic (or possibly alkali? I think it was acidic, though) and ate easily through the coating. Now, whichever kind of water goes through those pipes will pick up lead.
And there are people still living there. It's kind of gut-wrenching to think about.
|
On September 14 2016 06:03 Plansix wrote:
I think Mohdoo is on point that if this was any other city but the impoverished City of Flint, right next to the ongoing dumpster fire that is Detroit, this would have been handled with much greater speed.
that is wrong.
black people have a cultural deficit and have noone else to blame than themselfs.
you need some blood (oh sorry i mean "culture") of romans in you to develop and maintain a public water system.
User was banned for this post.
|
On September 14 2016 06:01 zlefin wrote:
well, it's not like there's huge ongoing danger; iirc now they're just shipping in good water for everything. and just having noone use the taps.
though I agree they should totally be fixing it faster.
You don't recall correctly.
|
On September 14 2016 06:05 puerk wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2016 06:03 Plansix wrote:
I think Mohdoo is on point that if this was any other city but the impoverished City of Flint, right next to the ongoing dumpster fire that is Detroit, this would have been handled with much greater speed. that is wrong. black people have a cultural deficit and have noone else to blame than themselfs. you need some blood (oh sorry i mean "culture") of romans in you to develop and maintain a public water system.
...I can't tell if there is some sort of language barrier going on here or if I am doing a poor job picking up on sarcasm.
|
United States44409 Posts
On September 14 2016 06:22 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2016 06:05 puerk wrote:On September 14 2016 06:03 Plansix wrote:
I think Mohdoo is on point that if this was any other city but the impoverished City of Flint, right next to the ongoing dumpster fire that is Detroit, this would have been handled with much greater speed. that is wrong. black people have a cultural deficit and have noone else to blame than themselfs. you need some blood (oh sorry i mean "culture") of romans in you to develop and maintain a public water system. ...I can't tell if there is some sort of language barrier going on here or if I am doing a poor job picking up on sarcasm.
I'm going with sarcasm. Roman plumbing was pretty infamous for the lead poisoning.
|
Just so y'all are aware, there is a 2012 Michigan statute that can explain a big part of why public services are so shitty in this state. Basically, a Snyder-driven (that means "business-ify" everything, basically) state government passed a statute that allows for the governor to appoint an emergency manager ("EM") that has plenary, de facto control over practically every function of a local government/district that is determined to be in emergency. Naturally, the misfortune in this state can be traced directly along the implementation path of EMs, with Flint at the forefront vis a vie Darnell Earley's rather incompetent tenure prior to the water crisis. That's because statutes like the one cited allow for men who think government is a business to come in and "restructure" in the name of the bottom line (one that marginalizes the police power obligations of municipal governments), all without local oversight because of what amounts to a statutory excision of local authority over a locality's own matters. Add in admittedly incompetent local politicians and you get an entire generation of low income children with permanently disabled learning skills a la Flint.
Ohio, on the other hand, has likely the strongest "local rule" bent in state/municipal governance of any state in the country, so while Kasich and his ilk constantly do their best to insert private interest into the public sphere (see the terrible state of charter schools in Ohio), it looks like localities will maintain relatively unfettered control over their own affairs.
|
Privatizing things continues to public services shit and other people rich. But people will keep pushing for it because they love that free government money without the pesky need to compete in a truly free market.
|
In a Monday letter to Rep. Lamar Smith (R-TX), climate change denier and chair of the House Science Committee, several constitutional experts argued that the committee should not have issued subpoenas to environmental groups as part of its probe into state investigations of Exxon.
The scholars wrote in the letter obtained by InsideClimate News that "these Subpoenas violate the separation of powers, exceed the committee’s delegated authority, abridge the First Amendment, and undermine fundamental principles of federalism."
"The Subpoenas should not have been issued and should not be enforced. We urge you to withdraw voluntarily these misguided demands for information your committee has no legitimate right to inspect," the letter reads.
For a few months, the House Science Committee, has been looking into state investigations into whether Exxon Mobil misled its investors regarding climate change. The committee requested that several environmental groups and state attorneys general turn over their communications related to the Exxon probe and climate change. After the groups and state officials refused to turn over documents, the committee issued subpoenas.
The activist groups and state attorneys general have still refused to comply, prompting the House Science Committee to schedule a hearing for Wednesday seeking to affirm Congress' right to issue subpoenas.
This is just the latest battle the Science Committee has waged over climate change. Last year, the committee issued subpoenas to the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA), demanding internal communications of scientists that conducted research on climate change.
The Monday letter from the constitutional experts does not address whether the committee can issue subpoenas to state officials, but to the outside groups in this case. In the letter, the scholars argue that the investigation into communication that the environmental groups had with states falls outside of the committee's purview, and that it violates individuals' right to petition state governments.
The experts told the committee that the subpoenas are "invalid and constitutionally impermissible."
"We urge you to withdraw them promptly. Should Congress seek to enforce them, we are confident that a federal court will take seriously the lessons this country learned from McCarthyism and refuse to do so," the letter reads.
Source
|
One of my least favorite Congressmen out of all the ones I know. Texas should be ashamed that they keep reelecting him.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
