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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
August 19 2016 11:04 GMT
#95581
In an effort to collect previously undisclosed millions of dollars he’s owed by an oligarch-backed Ukrainian political party, Donald Trump’s campaign chairman Paul Manafort has been relying on a trusted protégé whose links to Russia and its Ukrainian allies have prompted concerns among Manafort associates, according to people who worked with both men.

The protégé, Konstantin Kilimnik, has had conversations with fellow operatives in Kiev about collecting unpaid fees owed to Manafort’s company by a Russia-friendly political party called Opposition Bloc, according to operatives who work in Ukraine.

A Russian Army-trained linguist who has told a previous employer of a background with Russian intelligence, Kilimnik started working for Manafort in 2005 when Manafort was representing Ukrainian oligarch Rinat Akhmetov, a gig that morphed into a long-term contract with Viktor Yanukovych, the Kremlin-aligned hard-liner who became president of Ukraine.

Kilimnik eventually became “Manafort’s Manafort” in Kiev, and he continued to lead Manafort’s office there after Yanukovych fled the country for Russia in 2014, according to Ukrainian business records and interviews with several political operatives who have worked in Ukraine’s capital. Kilimnik and Manafort then teamed up to help promote Opposition Bloc, which rose from the ashes of Yanukovych’s regime. The party is funded by oligarchs who previously backed Yanukovych, including at least one who the Ukrainian operatives say is close to both Kilimnik and Manafort.

Kilimnik has continued advising Opposition Bloc, which opposes Ukraine’s teetering pro-Western government, even as the party stopped fully paying Manafort’s firm, leaving it unable to pay some of its employees and rent, according to people familiar with the firm and its relationship to Opposition Bloc.

All the while, Kilimnik has told people that he remains in touch with his old mentor. He told several people that he traveled to the United States and met with Manafort this spring. The trip and alleged meeting came at a time when Manafort was immersed in helping guide Trump’s campaign through the bitter Republican presidential primaries, and was trying to distance himself from his work in Ukraine.


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
Dan HH
Profile Joined July 2012
Romania9129 Posts
August 19 2016 11:29 GMT
#95582
On August 19 2016 14:10 Doodsmack wrote:
Let's hear for a moment from the Yahoo commenting base.

Personality, like IQ, is largely stable throughout one's life. What you've seen early on is his true self. If one wants to vote Republican, they should not delude themselves into thinking Trump will change or has changed, or that somehow he will be better than he really is. People should not be stupid and hopeful. People should not engage in any rationalizations, justifications. He will do and say things to get more votes. If you want to vote for him, vote for him, but don't think to yourself he is really better than what he has portrayed himself to be. Personally, change would be desirable, but I don't think Trump is the one to be in that office. He would be change for the worse. I don't see why people don't see that. Even maintaining the status quo, while not optimal, is better than change for the worse. I don't see how people could even entertain the idea of Trump being president. People wouldn't want him to be in charge of anything else, given what we've seen so far.

If anything, this election has shown me just how difficult it is in the American electoral landscape to even temporarily ditch your 'team', regardless of what buffoonery your team puts in front of you. I'm centre-left and always voted against the social-dem party here that in theory is closest to my views but in practice gave me a myriad of reasons to dislike them, not because I'm smarter or rationalize less than your republicans but because if I remove myself from my supposed 'team' I'm not left with only 1. a party I'm diametrically opposed to and 2. a couple of minnows that pander to every fringe lunacy imaginable in order to establish a small base.

Yes, there is some incredibly idiocy and anti-intellectualism in the alt-right, but people like those from the_donald are a small minority of the 40% or so people that will vote Trump in November.

I know it's far-fetched but imagine Trump were the Dem party nominee and he'd spout the same amount of stupidity about FP, economy and grandiose unfeasible plans, but he'd toe the party line on social issues which would be even easier for him than the current situation since he publicly held some of those positions just a few years ago. Does anyone seriously believe that would make a large chunk of democrats vote Cruz instead?
ragz_gt
Profile Blog Joined April 2012
9172 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-08-19 11:46:10
August 19 2016 11:41 GMT
#95583
On August 19 2016 15:55 NukeD wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 19 2016 14:44 KwarK wrote:
On August 19 2016 13:57 Doodsmack wrote:
It's conceivable that an anti-semite would marry a non practicing ethnically Jewish person.

Farage is married to an immigrant from the EU.

So that could mean that he may have some reasonable points rather than being anti-whatever becuase its cool.


Or it means people have trouble consolidate the idea of individual and group of people. I've know a lot of people (I imagine you'd too) who are very friendly and cool to African Americans they know, but still pretty racist against them as a group.
I'm not an otaku, I'm a specialist.
iPlaY.NettleS
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
Australia4338 Posts
August 19 2016 12:17 GMT
#95584
http://thehill.com/homenews/house/291324-liberals-rally-to-sink-obama-trade-deal

Liberals rally to sink Obama trade deal

Liberals are amping up their opposition to the Trans-Pacific Partnership (TPP) on and off of Capitol Hill, amid escalating concerns that the package will get an 11th hour vote after the November elections.

Republican leaders in both chambers have said it's unlikely the mammoth Pacific Rim trade deal will reach the floor this year. But the accord remains a top priority for President Obama in the twilight of his final term, and the critics — leery of pro-TPP members in both parties — aren't taking anything for granted.


Liberal TPP opponents this month have launched a new wave of petition campaigns and fundraising drives; a free concert series is touring the country through the summer; and lawmakers on Capitol Hill are vowing to do "everything we possibly can," in the words of Rep. Rosa DeLauro (D-Conn.), to block a vote this year.
“Make no mistake about it, Speaker [Paul] Ryan and the administration are working hand-in-hand to plot a path for the TPP in a lame duck session of Congress," DeLauro, who's among the loudest TPP critics, said this week in an email. "They will do everything possible to try to pass the TPP after the election."

Fueling those concerns, Obama on Friday sent notice to Congress that he intends to deliver TPP implementing legislation to Capitol Hill later in the year — a maneuver dictated by the fast-track trade resolution Congress passed in 2015.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e7PvoI6gvQs
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
August 19 2016 12:37 GMT
#95585
On August 19 2016 20:41 ragz_gt wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 19 2016 15:55 NukeD wrote:
On August 19 2016 14:44 KwarK wrote:
On August 19 2016 13:57 Doodsmack wrote:
It's conceivable that an anti-semite would marry a non practicing ethnically Jewish person.

Farage is married to an immigrant from the EU.

So that could mean that he may have some reasonable points rather than being anti-whatever becuase its cool.


Or it means people have trouble consolidate the idea of individual and group of people. I've know a lot of people (I imagine you'd too) who are very friendly and cool to African Americans they know, but still pretty racist against them as a group.

Having black/jewish/gay friends does not inoculate someone from racism/bigotry. I don’t know why people seem to believe it would.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
Biff The Understudy
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
France7902 Posts
August 19 2016 13:21 GMT
#95586
On August 19 2016 15:55 NukeD wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 19 2016 14:44 KwarK wrote:
On August 19 2016 13:57 Doodsmack wrote:
It's conceivable that an anti-semite would marry a non practicing ethnically Jewish person.

Farage is married to an immigrant from the EU.

So that could mean that he may have some reasonable points rather than being anti-whatever becuase its cool.

... or that he is an unbelievable hypocrite on top of being a nasty demagogue populist racist..
The fellow who is out to burn things up is the counterpart of the fool who thinks he can save the world. The world needs neither to be burned up nor to be saved. The world is, we are. Transients, if we buck it; here to stay if we accept it. ~H.Miller
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
August 19 2016 13:21 GMT
#95587
As southern Louisiana sheds the last of the week’s historic floodwater, the region faces significant challenges: how to handle resulting disease, how to pay for the damage and how to prevent it all from happening again.

But as the nation becomes aware of the extent of the damage – 40,000 homes affected and at least 13 people killed – politics have begun to creep into play. Some people have criticized Barack Obama for continuing his golfing vacation as the flood unfolded, while Donald Trump plans to visit the region on Friday, to the consternation of Louisiana governor John Bel Edwards.

Many residents are only dimly aware, if at all, of those larger tableaux. Most remain focused on immediate matters like finding loved ones, burying pets and shoveling river silt from their living rooms.

Or even more immediately, they search for food for themselves and their children in places where relief agencies have not yet arrived. “Our daily bread,” some people have taken to calling it.

“They took those brown bags with such gratitude,” said Julie Ralph, who spent Thursday handing out lunches at Amite Baptist church in Denham Springs. The church itself was flooded and contaminated, so the food was prepared at the few dry homes in the area, then gathered at the church and distributed to anyone who could come. Several men with high-clearance trucks drove food to people who had no means of transportation. “One lady broke down crying,” Ralph said.

The rivers and rainwater have receded, but the region is now haunted by small olive-drab patches of water here and there; puddled in a child’s splash pool, trapped in a trash can, or cupped in fallen magnolia leaves. All of it will offer a breeding ground to mosquitoes in a region where they are, even in the best circumstances, a plague.

Locals fear the Zika virus and mosquito repellents long ago disappeared from supermarket shelves. So far those fears may be unfounded. According to the Louisiana department of health, four new cases of Zika were reported this week, but all were contracted during travel to affected areas.


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
Biff The Understudy
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
France7902 Posts
August 19 2016 13:23 GMT
#95588
On August 19 2016 21:37 Plansix wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 19 2016 20:41 ragz_gt wrote:
On August 19 2016 15:55 NukeD wrote:
On August 19 2016 14:44 KwarK wrote:
On August 19 2016 13:57 Doodsmack wrote:
It's conceivable that an anti-semite would marry a non practicing ethnically Jewish person.

Farage is married to an immigrant from the EU.

So that could mean that he may have some reasonable points rather than being anti-whatever becuase its cool.


Or it means people have trouble consolidate the idea of individual and group of people. I've know a lot of people (I imagine you'd too) who are very friendly and cool to African Americans they know, but still pretty racist against them as a group.

Having black/jewish/gay friends does not inoculate someone from racism/bigotry. I don’t know why people seem to believe it would.

Hitler was no racist, he even saved a jew!! http://www.telegraph.co.uk/history/world-war-two/9379575/Adolf-Hitler-protected-his-Jewish-former-commanding-officer.html
The fellow who is out to burn things up is the counterpart of the fool who thinks he can save the world. The world needs neither to be burned up nor to be saved. The world is, we are. Transients, if we buck it; here to stay if we accept it. ~H.Miller
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
August 19 2016 13:27 GMT
#95589
The argument that the ovens were to small is a common among holocaust deniers. I am willing to accept a variety of points of view on history, but I draw the line right at people who deny the holocaust, slavery or stealing all that land from American natives.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
zatic
Profile Blog Joined September 2007
Zurich15345 Posts
August 19 2016 13:40 GMT
#95590
I don't get the oven size argument anyway. Is this supposed to be a qualitative or quantitave argument? Are they arguing that that because the ovens were supposedly small, they must have been used for something else? Or is it really about 5mio vs 6mio Jews murdered?
ModeratorI know Teamliquid is known as a massive building
xDaunt
Profile Joined March 2010
United States17988 Posts
August 19 2016 13:50 GMT
#95591
Or, you know, we could wait and see whether there's any truth to the allegations in the Complaint before concluding that the guy actually did those things....
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-08-19 13:54:09
August 19 2016 13:52 GMT
#95592
Most holocaust denier arguments are mercurial in nature, so it is hard to pin down the specific thrust of the argument. But my understanding it is an argument that focuses on showing the logistics of disposing of that many bodies was not possible with the infrastructure the Nazi government had created. Which is a terrible argument since the ovens one of the numerous ways they disposed of bodies during the holocaust.

But it’s real purpose is to shift to burden of proof, as with all holocaust denier arguments. They don’t want to make a sound argument, just force people to respond to they can question and invalidate the evidence they provide.

On August 19 2016 22:50 xDaunt wrote:
Or, you know, we could wait and see whether there's any truth to the allegations in the Complaint before concluding that the guy actually did those things....

How long do I need to wait until I can form an opinion on the subject? If I start every sentence with “If the allegation are true,” is it ok to speculate?
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
August 19 2016 14:13 GMT
#95593
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
xDaunt
Profile Joined March 2010
United States17988 Posts
August 19 2016 14:23 GMT
#95594
On August 19 2016 22:52 Plansix wrote:
How long do I need to wait until I can form an opinion on the subject? If I start every sentence with “If the allegation are true,” is it ok to speculate?


Considering their severity, the allegations very clearly would constitute defamation if not proven. I certainly don't expect people to wait until the allegations are proven by any measure (even by a preponderance) before forming an opinion, but there should at least be some quantum of competent evidence out there before we throw the guy under the bus.
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
August 19 2016 14:25 GMT
#95595
So with Manafort now out the GOP establishment has nobody close to Trump.
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
Ayaz2810
Profile Joined September 2011
United States2763 Posts
August 19 2016 14:37 GMT
#95596
All the shuffling of staff does not help his image. It makes it look like he is impossible to work with, even if the reason was that Manafort did not want to be a "distraction". Although I am skeptical that that's the real reason. I think the ship is taking on water, and Manafort knows it. No info to back that up, just odd timing.
Vrtra Vanquisher/Tiamat Trouncer/World Serpent Slayer
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
August 19 2016 14:41 GMT
#95597
Well the Trump campaign has gone through two Presidential Campaign Chairs since June, along with leadership shakeups. The next two weeks should be interesting as new hires are let Trump be Trump while Manafort tried to instill a discipline.
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
Mohdoo
Profile Joined August 2007
United States15712 Posts
August 19 2016 15:28 GMT
#95598
Can't help but wonder what role Manafort was even actually playing in Trump's campaign. I am not sure what to expect to change.
Danglars
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States12133 Posts
August 19 2016 15:59 GMT
#95599
On August 19 2016 11:10 xDaunt wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 19 2016 10:37 Introvert wrote:
Maybe this will lighten up xDaunt's day:

+ Show Spoiler +



Trump gave a good, yet Trumpian speech. Still too much protectionism and big "I will fix it" government, but he's had three solid speeches in a row, and hit a lot of good notes. If he apologizes to people by name (instead of citing "regrets") it will show he's making real progress. There is still time.

Edit: I'm still not convinced, but this is some kind of Trump record.

I'm just tired and cranky from not getting enough sleep last night and having to deal with some needless bullshit at work.

This Trump speech is good. He's very strong when he stays on point with his core issues and avoids his shitty detouring. I also find his speeches fascinating from a technical standpoint because he incorporates a lot of the terminology and techniques that top trial attorneys use.

The two speeches I watched recently were outstanding. I still can hardly believe it. Please tell me whoever prepped the speech and new direction (can only hope it lasts) will be doing Trump's debate prep.
Great armies come from happy zealots, and happy zealots come from California!
TL+ Member
OtherWorld
Profile Blog Joined October 2013
France17333 Posts
August 19 2016 16:06 GMT
#95600
Is this Manafort guy the one who replaced Lewandowski? Is so, is it likely that Trump will call Lewandowski back? After all, you don't change a winning team.
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