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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. |
On August 02 2016 02:06 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2016 02:01 Plansix wrote:On August 02 2016 01:58 CobaltBlu wrote:
Nobody has to try and decipher the meaning behind the face Sanders was making because he gave a very clear endorsement speech. Also he seems to have a grumpy face by default. But there will always be be people saying "he didn't really mean it, he was forced to by the DNC," blah blah blah. Because taking people at their word isn't something you do if they are saying what you don't want to hear. No, he doesn't support Clinton in any way beyond not wanting Trump and he thinks the only way to prevent Trump is to support Clinton. That's very different than endorsing her because she's a good candidate. If he thought a third party candidacy (Jill and Nina) could win he wouldn't be endorsing Clinton. It's a different calculation for him than it is for voters, he will be totally powerless without support from the establishment, whereas voters will get more powerful after 4 years of Trump if he's anything like Hillary and friends paint him as. I'm honestly impressed at the level of denial going on in the Democratic party, on the bright side, it makes it very easy not to support them as a party.
I guess it's better to believe that Sanders has been lying through his teeth since the first Democratic debate out of political expediency (despite that being pretty much the antithesis of his campaign) than that he might actually not mind Hillary Clinton as President to the same degree some of his supporters do.
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On August 02 2016 02:27 zlefin wrote:
Well, it's not like Bernie is a democrat, so it's not surprising he doesn't want to share.
As succinct as it is shallow.
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On August 02 2016 02:28 TheTenthDoc wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2016 02:06 GreenHorizons wrote:On August 02 2016 02:01 Plansix wrote:On August 02 2016 01:58 CobaltBlu wrote:
Nobody has to try and decipher the meaning behind the face Sanders was making because he gave a very clear endorsement speech. Also he seems to have a grumpy face by default. But there will always be be people saying "he didn't really mean it, he was forced to by the DNC," blah blah blah. Because taking people at their word isn't something you do if they are saying what you don't want to hear. No, he doesn't support Clinton in any way beyond not wanting Trump and he thinks the only way to prevent Trump is to support Clinton. That's very different than endorsing her because she's a good candidate. If he thought a third party candidacy (Jill and Nina) could win he wouldn't be endorsing Clinton. It's a different calculation for him than it is for voters, he will be totally powerless without support from the establishment, whereas voters will get more powerful after 4 years of Trump if he's anything like Hillary and friends paint him as. I'm honestly impressed at the level of denial going on in the Democratic party, on the bright side, it makes it very easy not to support them as a party. I guess it's better to believe that Sanders has been lying through his teeth since the first Democratic debate than that he might actually not mind Hillary Clinton as President.
No lying, he's always said he would pick her over Trump, but that's very different than actually endorsing her on her own merits. If it was a two way race between Hillary and Jill/Nina you really think Bernie would be endorsing Hillary? If so I got a bridge to sell ya.
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United Kingdom13775 Posts
If I were Bernie, whether or not I liked Hillary Clinton I would give her my endorsement. It's a very simple matter:
1. On a personal level, Bernie stands to gain a lot of relevance and a lot of standing in the Senate if Hillary wins and he is put into a position to have influence. Even ultimately unsuccessful, but powerful, presidential runs will have that perk. The entire country now knows who he is and what he stands for.
2. If Trump wins, Bernie gets nothing. If Hillary wins, Bernie gets a little bit. There is no third option so within the scope of the current election the choice is very small. Failing to support their candidate isn't going to do the Republican splinter groups a lot of good in the long run. The Bush family specifically probably will no longer have any sway within the party for the foreseeable future.
The strength of the endorsement is meaningless. I see it as a binary option, and if I were to endorse someone I didn't really like I would pretend that it's the greatest endorsement that God ever created. Being lukewarm is just going to be divisive.
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On August 02 2016 02:28 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2016 02:27 zlefin wrote:
Well, it's not like Bernie is a democrat, so it's not surprising he doesn't want to share. As succinct as it is shallow.
not quite sure what you mean by shallow here.
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Nothing gets this thread moving like GH’s claims that his opinions on the inter working of Sander’s mind are the TRUTH and all other opinions are delusional.
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On August 02 2016 02:32 Plansix wrote:
Nothing gets this thread moving like GH’s claims that his opinions on the inter working of Sander’s mind are the TRUTH and all other opinions are delusional.
such is the sad truth of internet discussions.
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Dear Mr. Khan,
I want to preface this letter by stating that I respect your son’s sacrifice for this great nation. By all accounts, he is a true hero that sacrificed himself in service to our country. For that I am thankful.
As a veteran, I watched your comments at the Democratic National Convention with a mixture of sadness, and anger. The United States has a military comprised of volunteers. Every single member has made the conscious choice to join the military and serve. There is not a single service member who has been forced into service. It is important for all service members (and apparently, their families) to understand that service to this great nation does not imbue one with special privileges or rights. I found your comments troubling when you said: “Have you ever been to Arlington cemetery? Go look at the graves of brave patriots who died defending the United States of America. You will see all faiths, genders and ethnicities. You have sacrificed nothing and no one.”
Does it matter whether Mr. Trump has sacrificed “…nothing and no one?”…has Ms. Clinton “..sacrificed” for this nation? How about Mr. Obama? Your comment stating that Mr. Trump “…has sacrifice no one” is alarming. Are you intimating that YOU sacrificed? Sir, your son willingly sacrificed himself. As a father I cannot imagine the pain you must feel but his sacrifice is his own. He was not forced to serve.
I am troubled that you would allow a party that has little more than contempt for the US Service Member to parade you into the DNC to denounce Donald Trump. Did you watch when protesters at the DNC booed and heckled Medal of Honor recipient Capt. Florent Groberg? Did you notice your party interrupting the moment of silence for slain police officers? Your own hypocrisy in not denouncing these acts and instead using the DNC as a platform to make a political point is disgraceful. The simple fact is that whether one served or sacrificed does not give greater power to their statements. One vote is as valuable as another. That sir, is why our Country is great. Your condemnation of one person for a statement while standing idly as your party disparages veterans and police officers is the height of hypocrisy.
To conflate the need to prevent potential terrorists from entering our country with the belief that ‘all Muslims’ should be banned is simply wrong and disingenuous. As a reminder, Mr. Trump said: ” “Until we are able to determine and understand this problem and the dangerous threat it poses, our country cannot be the victims of horrendous attacks by people that believe only in Jihad, and have no sense of reason or respect for human life,” The irony of your son’s own death at the hands of these very people in Iraq should not be ignored. I have little doubt that your son would have recognized the need to protect our country from these very people. In fact, he held is own troops back so that he could check on a suspicious car. Your son understood sacrifice and how to protect “his people”…’his soldiers’….’his fellow Americans’…
As you continue to make the media circuit and bask in the glow of affection cast upon you by a party that has little regard for your son’s own sacrifice, and veterans in general, I would ask you to consider your comments and your position more closely.
Respectfully,
Chris Mark
US Marine and Navy Veteran.
https://globalriskinfo.com/2016/07/31/an-open-letter-to-khizr-khan/
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On August 02 2016 02:32 Plansix wrote:
Nothing gets this thread moving like GH’s claims that his opinions on the inter working of Sander’s mind are the TRUTH and all other opinions are delusional.
You all act like it takes some grand workings to understand, Legal just explained it pretty simply. I just don't see why you all think you can convince people outside of Hillary's bubble that this isn't the case.
EDIT: If Hillary and Bernie supporters were as closely aligned as Hillary supporters pretend, Bernie giving over his fundraising machine would be expected and embraced. Ignoring that or papering over it with statements like "he's not a democrat so of course he doesn't want to share" isn't helping.
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On August 02 2016 02:34 GGTeMpLaR wrote:Show nested quote +Dear Mr. Khan,
I want to preface this letter by stating that I respect your son’s sacrifice for this great nation. By all accounts, he is a true hero that sacrificed himself in service to our country. For that I am thankful.
As a veteran, I watched your comments at the Democratic National Convention with a mixture of sadness, and anger. The United States has a military comprised of volunteers. Every single member has made the conscious choice to join the military and serve. There is not a single service member who has been forced into service. It is important for all service members (and apparently, their families) to understand that service to this great nation does not imbue one with special privileges or rights. I found your comments troubling when you said: “Have you ever been to Arlington cemetery? Go look at the graves of brave patriots who died defending the United States of America. You will see all faiths, genders and ethnicities. You have sacrificed nothing and no one.”
Does it matter whether Mr. Trump has sacrificed “…nothing and no one?”…has Ms. Clinton “..sacrificed” for this nation? How about Mr. Obama? Your comment stating that Mr. Trump “…has sacrifice no one” is alarming. Are you intimating that YOU sacrificed? Sir, your son willingly sacrificed himself. As a father I cannot imagine the pain you must feel but his sacrifice is his own. He was not forced to serve.
I am troubled that you would allow a party that has little more than contempt for the US Service Member to parade you into the DNC to denounce Donald Trump. Did you watch when protesters at the DNC booed and heckled Medal of Honor recipient Capt. Florent Groberg? Did you notice your party interrupting the moment of silence for slain police officers? Your own hypocrisy in not denouncing these acts and instead using the DNC as a platform to make a political point is disgraceful. The simple fact is that whether one served or sacrificed does not give greater power to their statements. One vote is as valuable as another. That sir, is why our Country is great. Your condemnation of one person for a statement while standing idly as your party disparages veterans and police officers is the height of hypocrisy.
To conflate the need to prevent potential terrorists from entering our country with the belief that ‘all Muslims’ should be banned is simply wrong and disingenuous. As a reminder, Mr. Trump said: ” “Until we are able to determine and understand this problem and the dangerous threat it poses, our country cannot be the victims of horrendous attacks by people that believe only in Jihad, and have no sense of reason or respect for human life,” The irony of your son’s own death at the hands of these very people in Iraq should not be ignored. I have little doubt that your son would have recognized the need to protect our country from these very people. In fact, he held is own troops back so that he could check on a suspicious car. Your son understood sacrifice and how to protect “his people”…’his soldiers’….’his fellow Americans’…
As you continue to make the media circuit and bask in the glow of affection cast upon you by a party that has little regard for your son’s own sacrifice, and veterans in general, I would ask you to consider your comments and your position more closely.
Respectfully,
Chris Mark
US Marine and Navy Veteran.
https://globalriskinfo.com/2016/07/31/an-open-letter-to-khizr-khan/
Absolutely disgusting letter you've quoted there.
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On August 02 2016 02:17 Nevuk wrote:Show nested quote +
A CBS News poll has Clinton ahead by 5 percentage points, in the version of the poll that includes third-party candidates (which is the version FiveThirtyEight uses). Trump led Clinton by 1 point in a CBS News poll conducted just after the RNC, so that would count as a 6-point bounce for Clinton.
A Morning Consult poll also showed Clinton up by 5 percentage points, representing a 9-point swing toward her from a poll they conducted last week after the RNC.
A RABA Research national poll, conducted on Friday after the convention, has Clinton with a 15-point lead. RABA Research’s national poll has been something of a pro-Clinton outlier. Still, the trend in the poll is favorable for Clinton. She’d led Trump by 5 percentage points in RABA Research’s poll just after the RNC, meaning that she got a 10-point bounce.
Finally, a Public Policy Polling survey has Clinton up by 5 percentage points. Because PPP did not conduct a post-RNC poll, we can’t directly measure Clinton’s bounce. But their previous national poll, in late June, showed Clinton up by 4 percentage points. Therefore, their data tends to confirm our notion that the conventions may have reset the race to approximately where it was in June, which was a strong month of polling for Clinton.
In the name of balance I will say that, just like with Trump, polls shortly after the convention are very unreliable.
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On August 02 2016 02:38 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2016 02:17 Nevuk wrote:https://twitter.com/NateSilver538/status/760140049946120192
A CBS News poll has Clinton ahead by 5 percentage points, in the version of the poll that includes third-party candidates (which is the version FiveThirtyEight uses). Trump led Clinton by 1 point in a CBS News poll conducted just after the RNC, so that would count as a 6-point bounce for Clinton.
A Morning Consult poll also showed Clinton up by 5 percentage points, representing a 9-point swing toward her from a poll they conducted last week after the RNC.
A RABA Research national poll, conducted on Friday after the convention, has Clinton with a 15-point lead. RABA Research’s national poll has been something of a pro-Clinton outlier. Still, the trend in the poll is favorable for Clinton. She’d led Trump by 5 percentage points in RABA Research’s poll just after the RNC, meaning that she got a 10-point bounce.
Finally, a Public Policy Polling survey has Clinton up by 5 percentage points. Because PPP did not conduct a post-RNC poll, we can’t directly measure Clinton’s bounce. But their previous national poll, in late June, showed Clinton up by 4 percentage points. Therefore, their data tends to confirm our notion that the conventions may have reset the race to approximately where it was in June, which was a strong month of polling for Clinton.
In the name of balance I will say that, just like with Trump, polls shortly after the convention are very unreliable.
Probably worth adding that they are interpreting a drop in Trump's numbers following the convention as a "bump" for Hillary despite her support staying mostly the same.
It's worth noting swings of different polls should be looked at differently because there are wildly different models of the 2016 general election electorate being used.
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On August 02 2016 02:37 OuchyDathurts wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2016 02:34 GGTeMpLaR wrote:Dear Mr. Khan,
I want to preface this letter by stating that I respect your son’s sacrifice for this great nation. By all accounts, he is a true hero that sacrificed himself in service to our country. For that I am thankful.
As a veteran, I watched your comments at the Democratic National Convention with a mixture of sadness, and anger. The United States has a military comprised of volunteers. Every single member has made the conscious choice to join the military and serve. There is not a single service member who has been forced into service. It is important for all service members (and apparently, their families) to understand that service to this great nation does not imbue one with special privileges or rights. I found your comments troubling when you said: “Have you ever been to Arlington cemetery? Go look at the graves of brave patriots who died defending the United States of America. You will see all faiths, genders and ethnicities. You have sacrificed nothing and no one.”
Does it matter whether Mr. Trump has sacrificed “…nothing and no one?”…has Ms. Clinton “..sacrificed” for this nation? How about Mr. Obama? Your comment stating that Mr. Trump “…has sacrifice no one” is alarming. Are you intimating that YOU sacrificed? Sir, your son willingly sacrificed himself. As a father I cannot imagine the pain you must feel but his sacrifice is his own. He was not forced to serve.
I am troubled that you would allow a party that has little more than contempt for the US Service Member to parade you into the DNC to denounce Donald Trump. Did you watch when protesters at the DNC booed and heckled Medal of Honor recipient Capt. Florent Groberg? Did you notice your party interrupting the moment of silence for slain police officers? Your own hypocrisy in not denouncing these acts and instead using the DNC as a platform to make a political point is disgraceful. The simple fact is that whether one served or sacrificed does not give greater power to their statements. One vote is as valuable as another. That sir, is why our Country is great. Your condemnation of one person for a statement while standing idly as your party disparages veterans and police officers is the height of hypocrisy.
To conflate the need to prevent potential terrorists from entering our country with the belief that ‘all Muslims’ should be banned is simply wrong and disingenuous. As a reminder, Mr. Trump said: ” “Until we are able to determine and understand this problem and the dangerous threat it poses, our country cannot be the victims of horrendous attacks by people that believe only in Jihad, and have no sense of reason or respect for human life,” The irony of your son’s own death at the hands of these very people in Iraq should not be ignored. I have little doubt that your son would have recognized the need to protect our country from these very people. In fact, he held is own troops back so that he could check on a suspicious car. Your son understood sacrifice and how to protect “his people”…’his soldiers’….’his fellow Americans’…
As you continue to make the media circuit and bask in the glow of affection cast upon you by a party that has little regard for your son’s own sacrifice, and veterans in general, I would ask you to consider your comments and your position more closely.
Respectfully,
Chris Mark
US Marine and Navy Veteran.
https://globalriskinfo.com/2016/07/31/an-open-letter-to-khizr-khan/ Absolutely disgusting letter you've quoted there.
Why?
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On August 02 2016 02:34 GGTeMpLaR wrote:Show nested quote +Dear Mr. Khan,
I want to preface this letter by stating that I respect your son’s sacrifice for this great nation. By all accounts, he is a true hero that sacrificed himself in service to our country. For that I am thankful.
As a veteran, I watched your comments at the Democratic National Convention with a mixture of sadness, and anger. The United States has a military comprised of volunteers. Every single member has made the conscious choice to join the military and serve. There is not a single service member who has been forced into service. It is important for all service members (and apparently, their families) to understand that service to this great nation does not imbue one with special privileges or rights. I found your comments troubling when you said: “Have you ever been to Arlington cemetery? Go look at the graves of brave patriots who died defending the United States of America. You will see all faiths, genders and ethnicities. You have sacrificed nothing and no one.”
Does it matter whether Mr. Trump has sacrificed “…nothing and no one?”…has Ms. Clinton “..sacrificed” for this nation? How about Mr. Obama? Your comment stating that Mr. Trump “…has sacrifice no one” is alarming. Are you intimating that YOU sacrificed? Sir, your son willingly sacrificed himself. As a father I cannot imagine the pain you must feel but his sacrifice is his own. He was not forced to serve.
I am troubled that you would allow a party that has little more than contempt for the US Service Member to parade you into the DNC to denounce Donald Trump. Did you watch when protesters at the DNC booed and heckled Medal of Honor recipient Capt. Florent Groberg? Did you notice your party interrupting the moment of silence for slain police officers? Your own hypocrisy in not denouncing these acts and instead using the DNC as a platform to make a political point is disgraceful. The simple fact is that whether one served or sacrificed does not give greater power to their statements. One vote is as valuable as another. That sir, is why our Country is great. Your condemnation of one person for a statement while standing idly as your party disparages veterans and police officers is the height of hypocrisy.
To conflate the need to prevent potential terrorists from entering our country with the belief that ‘all Muslims’ should be banned is simply wrong and disingenuous. As a reminder, Mr. Trump said: ” “Until we are able to determine and understand this problem and the dangerous threat it poses, our country cannot be the victims of horrendous attacks by people that believe only in Jihad, and have no sense of reason or respect for human life,” The irony of your son’s own death at the hands of these very people in Iraq should not be ignored. I have little doubt that your son would have recognized the need to protect our country from these very people. In fact, he held is own troops back so that he could check on a suspicious car. Your son understood sacrifice and how to protect “his people”…’his soldiers’….’his fellow Americans’…
As you continue to make the media circuit and bask in the glow of affection cast upon you by a party that has little regard for your son’s own sacrifice, and veterans in general, I would ask you to consider your comments and your position more closely.
Respectfully,
Chris Mark
US Marine and Navy Veteran.
https://globalriskinfo.com/2016/07/31/an-open-letter-to-khizr-khan/
a jerk writes a jerk letter with lying points. Yawn. That Chris Mark fellow should be ashamed of himself.
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I am not entirely sure how the American presidential race works so can anybody tell me whether when Hillary wins now, does Bernie have a chance after 4 years? Or does Hillary automatically become the Democratic nominee after having been president?
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I went to high school with lots of people like the author of that letter. They never paid school any mind and then decided that their subsequent military career somehow gave them license to proselytize on the state of US politics and make broad, pointed proclamations aimed at those they disagree with. Bleh.
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On August 02 2016 02:35 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2016 02:32 Plansix wrote:
Nothing gets this thread moving like GH’s claims that his opinions on the inter working of Sander’s mind are the TRUTH and all other opinions are delusional. You all act like it takes some grand workings to understand, Legal just explained it pretty simply. I just don't see why you all think you can convince people outside of Hillary's bubble that this isn't the case. EDIT: If Hillary and Bernie supporters were as closely aligned as Hillary supporters pretend, Bernie giving over his fundraising machine would be expected and embraced. Ignoring that or papering over it with statements like "he's not a democrat so of course he doesn't want to share" isn't helping.
I was making a correct statement about Bernie not being a democrat; it was more snark than anything.
And how is it not helping to make a correct statement about the situation?
also, your nonsense about bubbles, as if we're the one in them and not you, gets old.
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United States41988 Posts
On August 02 2016 02:34 GGTeMpLaR wrote:Show nested quote +Dear Mr. Khan,
I want to preface this letter by stating that I respect your son’s sacrifice for this great nation. By all accounts, he is a true hero that sacrificed himself in service to our country. For that I am thankful.
As a veteran, I watched your comments at the Democratic National Convention with a mixture of sadness, and anger. The United States has a military comprised of volunteers. Every single member has made the conscious choice to join the military and serve. There is not a single service member who has been forced into service. It is important for all service members (and apparently, their families) to understand that service to this great nation does not imbue one with special privileges or rights. I found your comments troubling when you said: “Have you ever been to Arlington cemetery? Go look at the graves of brave patriots who died defending the United States of America. You will see all faiths, genders and ethnicities. You have sacrificed nothing and no one.”
Does it matter whether Mr. Trump has sacrificed “…nothing and no one?”…has Ms. Clinton “..sacrificed” for this nation? How about Mr. Obama? Your comment stating that Mr. Trump “…has sacrifice no one” is alarming. Are you intimating that YOU sacrificed? Sir, your son willingly sacrificed himself. As a father I cannot imagine the pain you must feel but his sacrifice is his own. He was not forced to serve.
I am troubled that you would allow a party that has little more than contempt for the US Service Member to parade you into the DNC to denounce Donald Trump. Did you watch when protesters at the DNC booed and heckled Medal of Honor recipient Capt. Florent Groberg? Did you notice your party interrupting the moment of silence for slain police officers? Your own hypocrisy in not denouncing these acts and instead using the DNC as a platform to make a political point is disgraceful. The simple fact is that whether one served or sacrificed does not give greater power to their statements. One vote is as valuable as another. That sir, is why our Country is great. Your condemnation of one person for a statement while standing idly as your party disparages veterans and police officers is the height of hypocrisy.
To conflate the need to prevent potential terrorists from entering our country with the belief that ‘all Muslims’ should be banned is simply wrong and disingenuous. As a reminder, Mr. Trump said: ” “Until we are able to determine and understand this problem and the dangerous threat it poses, our country cannot be the victims of horrendous attacks by people that believe only in Jihad, and have no sense of reason or respect for human life,” The irony of your son’s own death at the hands of these very people in Iraq should not be ignored. I have little doubt that your son would have recognized the need to protect our country from these very people. In fact, he held is own troops back so that he could check on a suspicious car. Your son understood sacrifice and how to protect “his people”…’his soldiers’….’his fellow Americans’…
As you continue to make the media circuit and bask in the glow of affection cast upon you by a party that has little regard for your son’s own sacrifice, and veterans in general, I would ask you to consider your comments and your position more closely.
Respectfully,
Chris Mark
US Marine and Navy Veteran.
https://globalriskinfo.com/2016/07/31/an-open-letter-to-khizr-khan/
wow
I got whiplash from that
"what about muh police officers"
straight into
"it's not about service or sacrifice"
Like make up your damn mind, are police officers and soldiers special snowflakes to be worshiped or not? If they are then we must always preface every sentence with veneration for them and we must respect the opinions of their relatives with solemn silence, even if they speak at the DNC. If they're not (and they're not) then why the hell are you bringing up the police? That entire piece is right wing straw talking point bingo. Although the practice of parading the families of the dead for political capital is pretty awful anyway. Unfortunately apparently someone somewhere must be eating that shit up because they're all doing it but he's right to point out that having a dead son doesn't give you any more credibility.
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On August 02 2016 02:44 farvacola wrote:
I went to high school with lots of people like the author of that letter. They never paid school any mind and then decided that their subsequent military career somehow gave them license to proselytize on the state of US politics and make broad, pointed proclamations aimed at those they disagree with. Bleh.
Does that apply to Mr Khan?
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United States41988 Posts
On August 02 2016 02:42 RoomOfMush wrote:
I am not entirely sure how the American presidential race works so can anybody tell me whether when Hillary wins now, does Bernie have a chance after 4 years? Or does Hillary automatically become the Democratic nominee after having been president?
Hillary will be taking over leadership of the Democratic party. She could lose it but it's presumed that if nothing weird happens she'll retain it and will have the choice of whether to run again.
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EPT
