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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
DickMcFanny
Profile Blog Joined September 2015
Ireland1076 Posts
May 06 2016 16:07 GMT
#75101
On May 07 2016 01:00 xDaunt wrote:
You guys aren't paying close enough attention. Trump is very much a deviation from conservative norms.


My point isn't about Trump, my point is that the GOP doesn't have any right to call itself conservative.
| (• ◡•)|╯ ╰(❍ᴥ❍ʋ)
zlefin
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
United States7689 Posts
May 06 2016 16:12 GMT
#75102
By the American definition of conservative, I'd say it does. Trump is certainly from a very different branch of the big tent that is the GOP.

I wish instead of single parties, we had people with multiple affiliations; so that there would be more group overlap.
So there might be say a social conservative and a social liberal group; (which functioned like a party in terms of supporting members and fighting opposing groups). But also a fiscal conservative and liberal groups; and/or whatever divisions made sense to people.
i.e. any individual politican would likely be a part of several different groups, each of which has its own focus. and on ballots it would show all the group affiliations (or at least the most importnat ones, i dunno how much space it'd end up taking).
Great read: http://shorensteincenter.org/news-coverage-2016-general-election/ great book on democracy: http://press.princeton.edu/titles/10671.html zlefin is grumpier due to long term illness. Ignoring some users.
Sermokala
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States14047 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-05-06 16:21:40
May 06 2016 16:13 GMT
#75103
On May 07 2016 01:07 DickMcFanny wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 07 2016 01:00 xDaunt wrote:
You guys aren't paying close enough attention. Trump is very much a deviation from conservative norms.


My point isn't about Trump, my point is that the GOP doesn't have any right to call itself conservative.

Yes it does beacuse it represents the right side of US politics.

Don't make thing so complex you miss basic two party facts like the red team is conservative and the blue team is liberal.

Plus If anything Republicans get to claim that the party was founded on freeing the slaves.
A wise man will say that he knows nothing. We're gona party like its 2752 Hail Dark Brandon
ticklishmusic
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States15977 Posts
May 06 2016 16:32 GMT
#75104
If there's a dramatic shift where the Republican party becomes the big tent that happens to include social liberals and fiscal moderates then I'm fine with being a Republican. Who knows, politics makes for strange bedfellows.
(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
oneofthem
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
May 06 2016 16:53 GMT
#75105
a difference between south american democracies and nordic etc is the way sound policy and responsible governance is accepted by the left. have fun telling these hamsters why the world is more complex than leftturn leftturn leftturn

We have fed the heart on fantasies, the heart's grown brutal from the fare, more substance in our enmities than in our love
DickMcFanny
Profile Blog Joined September 2015
Ireland1076 Posts
May 06 2016 16:53 GMT
#75106
Well they've been socially conservative because they needed to activate a voter base that didn't vote before...

But fiscally they've been anything but. They just move the welfare from the poor to the rich.
| (• ◡•)|╯ ╰(❍ᴥ❍ʋ)
andrewlt
Profile Joined August 2009
United States7702 Posts
May 06 2016 16:55 GMT
#75107
Yes, please. I'm more to the left socially and closer to the center economically. The Republican party should undo Nixon's Southern shift. Those guys are nothing but trouble.
farvacola
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States18838 Posts
May 06 2016 16:56 GMT
#75108
Out of curiosity, what does "closer to the center economically" actually look like?
"when the Dead Kennedys found out they had skinhead fans, they literally wrote a song titled 'Nazi Punks Fuck Off'"
Yoav
Profile Joined March 2011
United States1874 Posts
May 06 2016 17:06 GMT
#75109
On May 07 2016 01:56 farvacola wrote:
Out of curiosity, what does "closer to the center economically" actually look like?


Often times, pro-trade, in favor of regulations that pay attention to dynamic consequences, pro-small business, skeptical of large oligopolies. Sometimes skeptical of $15 min wage right away. Belief that you have to look at cost of living in evaluating things like minimum wage. That kind of thing.
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
May 06 2016 17:12 GMT
#75110
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-05-06 17:16:39
May 06 2016 17:14 GMT
#75111
Yes, a shift away promoting a pure meritocracy for all aspects of work, including minimum wages and worker benefits. That saying personal responsibility over and over does not solve problems like debt. A more macro view of issues like maternity/family leave, which has benefits long term for the work places as a whole. And spending money on infrastructure, rather than waiting for it to implode.

Edit: Pretty sure Speaker of the House is a very separate job from head of the RNC. What ever happened to standing by what you believe in? Is Ryan not allowed to to that? And if everyone loves Trump like he claims, Trump shouldn't have a problem winning Ryan over.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
LegalLord
Profile Blog Joined April 2013
United States13779 Posts
May 06 2016 17:23 GMT
#75112
Ryan doesn't seem to really oppose Trump, he just wants to get Trump on board with a more general conservative platform. That's how I interpret it anyways.
History will sooner or later sweep the European Union away without mercy.
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
May 06 2016 17:28 GMT
#75113
I sort of question if that nuanced approach to politics will be understood by Trump. This is a man who is still very upset about an almost decade old comment about his tiny hands.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
oBlade
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
United States5765 Posts
May 06 2016 17:29 GMT
#75114
On May 06 2016 22:16 xDaunt wrote:
Wow, liberals are finally concerned about the debt? When did this happen?

They're more contrarians than liberals; for example, G.W. Bush was an evil imperialist but Trump will be an evil isolationist.
"I read it. You know how to read, you ignorant fuck?" - Andy Dufresne
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
May 06 2016 17:36 GMT
#75115
If that's the case how many Republicans are heading towards Gary Johnson's camp.

"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
LegalLord
Profile Blog Joined April 2013
United States13779 Posts
May 06 2016 17:36 GMT
#75116
On May 07 2016 02:28 Plansix wrote:
I sort of question if that nuanced approach to politics will be understood by Trump. This is a man who is still very upset about an almost decade old comment about his tiny hands.

Just looked it up. Here you go:

Marco Rubio told supporters last week that GOP presidential rival Donald Trump is "always calling me 'little Marco.'"

"He is taller than me, he's like 6' 2", which is why I don't understand why his hands are the size of someone who is 5' 2"," Rubio joked. "Have you seen his hands? And you know what they say about men with small hands -- "

The crowd erupted.

" -- You can't trust them," Rubio said.

Rubio’s comment may come across tasteless for a presidential hopeful, but that was not the first time someone has questioned the size of Trump’s hands.

Nearly 30 years ago, Graydon Carter, the editor of Vanity Fair magazine, described Trump in Spy magazine as a “short-fingered vulgarian.”

In an editor’s letter in "Vanity Fair" last November, Carter said that he wrote the Sky magazine comment in 1988 "just to drive him a little bit crazy."

And according to Carter, it still does.

"Like so many bullies, Trump has skin of gossamer," Carter wrote in November.

"To this day, I receive the occasional envelope from Trump. There is always a photo of him—generally a tear sheet from a magazine. On all of them he has circled his hand in gold Sharpie in a valiant effort to highlight the length of his fingers," Carter wrote. "I almost feel sorry for the poor fellow because, to me, the fingers still look abnormally stubby."
History will sooner or later sweep the European Union away without mercy.
Mohdoo
Profile Joined August 2007
United States15723 Posts
May 06 2016 17:51 GMT
#75117
On May 07 2016 02:36 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
If that's the case how many Republicans are heading towards Gary Johnson's camp.

https://twitter.com/StealthBlue/status/728628323778220036


"3rd party candidate totally on track to be as irrelevant as ever, though less failed than other failures"
Naracs_Duc
Profile Joined August 2015
746 Posts
May 06 2016 18:13 GMT
#75118
On May 06 2016 14:11 LegalLord wrote:
Sure, it was in a bad state before the intervention. Perhaps you're trying to say that that justifies making the whole situation worse?

Intervention without a good plan for "the day after" is just adding fuel to the fire. That, at the very least, should be self evident.

Show nested quote +
On May 06 2016 14:06 Sermokala wrote:
I really hate to bring this up but isn't that the same thing everyone says about iraq? that we never had a strategy for what to do after we disposed the dictator and tried democracy building?

Somewhat different in that rather than doing very little to replace the old government, in Iraq the US just executed the transition poorly.


Libya was in pretty bad shape without US involvement. The US involvement that did happen was very minimal. The reason this strategy was done was because of the lessons from Iraq.

The moral of the story is that you're either there for longterm occupation/imperialism OR you be okay letting atrocities happen in the world. There is no middle ground option.

ticklishmusic
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States15977 Posts
May 06 2016 18:20 GMT
#75119
Europe also dropped the ball on Libya

And Libya pretty much said "thanks but we got it from here", turns out they didn't
(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
xDaunt
Profile Joined March 2010
United States17988 Posts
May 06 2016 18:28 GMT
#75120
On May 07 2016 03:20 ticklishmusic wrote:
Europe also dropped the ball on Libya

And Libya pretty much said "thanks but we got it from here", turns out they didn't

The Europeans can't even manage their own backyard. They can't be trusted to manage a country on another continent.
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