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KwarK
United States42573 Posts
On July 19 2013 02:50 Klondikebar wrote: The teach obedience, repetition, and response to a bell. Highschool was originally designed with the assumption that you'd go work in a factory. You have no idea how incredibly fascist the pledge of allegiance seems to someone who didn't grow up with it being a normal daily thing. | ||
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Shiori
3815 Posts
On July 19 2013 04:33 cLutZ wrote: Well thats the thing though isn't it? That is the huge issue with student loans AND the price of college. There are a huge number of fringe students, typically in the middle of their high school class, that go to college at 18. I would argue this is because of the failure of high schools to inform students about any other option. I agree that colleges should spend more time showcasing various options. Actually, though, I'm not sure how effective it is. When I went to highschool, in Canada, mind you, it was when the government was starting this big push for skilled trades and apprenticeships as opposed to purely emphasizing college. Starting from about grade 7 or 8, we had presentation after presentation about the myriad of different trades and how you didn't need a degree to do well and so on and so forth. Despite the fact that I felt it a little unfair that there were no presentations about actually going to university, I noticed that almost nobody actually ended up going into any of these trades, unless they were already planning to do so or unless they were not academically inclined at all. So I'm skeptical of how much difference it really makes. But I agree that it's a good idea. And also the cost of these loans is obviously being slowly exposed, but traditionally has been hidden from these mid-information students, who have been fed the half-truth that a college degree results in vastly increased earnings over a person's lifetime. The reality, is that most of that statistic is attributable to the fact that both high income and college graduation stem from the same character traits such as intelligence, work ethic, etc. I agree that college degrees have been inflated, but I'm not sure that's really the fault of universities, or even high schools. If anything, I think it's a sort of honest trap that parents fell into by realizing how important university education was when they were growing up (when ti was comparatively rarer) and assuming that their children must, therefore, go to university at all costs. In my opinion, the overvaluing of university degrees isn't a problem with the system, but with cultural tendencies. In time, I'm sure it'll work itself out, and we'll be back to not having enough doctors/teachers/lawyers etc. You have no idea how incredibly fascist the pledge of allegiance seems to someone who didn't grow up with it being a normal daily thing. People always look at me funny when I say that I'd rather not have to swear allegiance to a Queen, particularly when that Queen lives across the Atlantic Ocean and isn't even from Canada. C'est la vie. | ||
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corumjhaelen
France6884 Posts
On July 19 2013 04:35 KwarK wrote: You have no idea how incredibly fascist the pledge of allegiance seems to someone who didn't grow up with it being a normal daily thing. Wait, do they really still do it in public schools ? | ||
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{CC}StealthBlue
United States41117 Posts
Wow that does sound Fascist... | ||
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corumjhaelen
France6884 Posts
On July 19 2013 04:44 {CC}StealthBlue wrote: Yeah I remember having to stand up every morning and recite the pledge while someone over the intercom, usually the principle or an honor student. recited along with us. Wow that does sound Fascist... And I was so mad when they passed a law here to forbid to burn the French flag :/ Well yeah, we all have our problems I guess. | ||
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
On July 19 2013 04:44 {CC}StealthBlue wrote: Yeah I remember having to stand up every morning and recite the pledge while someone over the intercom, usually the principle or an honor student. recited along with us. Wow that does sound Fascist... Its actually Nationalism. Fascism (simplified) is Nationalism + Socialism. Well...when you think about it the public education system itself is pretty much that. | ||
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KwarK
United States42573 Posts
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DannyJ
United States5110 Posts
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sc2superfan101
3583 Posts
Yeah that just screams fascism... | ||
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Klondikebar
United States2227 Posts
On July 19 2013 04:35 KwarK wrote: You have no idea how incredibly fascist the pledge of allegiance seems to someone who didn't grow up with it being a normal daily thing. But now you have insight into why there's an entire generation of borderline xenophobic and outright jingoist Americans. Fortunately at my school we kinda stopped doing it. But if you walk by a classroom while elementary school students are saying it, it's like...looking into a North Korean classroom. | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands21652 Posts
On July 19 2013 04:59 sc2superfan101 wrote: I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. Yeah that just screams fascism... No just endless amounts of irony. | ||
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Shiori
3815 Posts
On July 19 2013 04:51 KwarK wrote: This is why you need a monarchy. We're all technically subjects to some nonsensical outmoded system which vaccinates us against all that bullshit because fuck swearing loyalty to some random guy who happened to be born to it. You'd not get brits pledging allegiance to the government and the flag. It's far easier to convince people they owe unthinking obedience to an ideal or a symbol than to some completely arbitrary person who farts like everyone else. An obviously flawed and largely ignored system breeds a natural wariness and suspicion to anyone claiming they deserve obedience. Haha, I guess that is true. Maybe that's why Canada largely ridicules our government/Prime Minister when they do something idiotic, even if we voted for them or otherwise support them. I'm always flabbergasted by how much of a "big deal" the President is in America. The PM is important, yeah, and he does make the "big decisions," but it's more about the platform than the individual himself; it's not like the PM personally has any more executive power than any other MP, just that the MPs he leads vote with him. Then I look at the US and it's like there's the President, then Congress, then the Senate, and they're all kinda disconnected, and there are governors, too. Confuses me! | ||
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KwarK
United States42573 Posts
I'm sure you're a patriot and couldn't imagine anything so 'murcan being sinister but ask anyone not American what they think about children standing up and chanting their submission to the state every morning on the command of the loudspeaker. | ||
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Klondikebar
United States2227 Posts
On July 19 2013 05:04 Shiori wrote: Haha, I guess that is true. Maybe that's why Canada largely ridicules our government/Prime Minister when they do something idiotic, even if we voted for them or otherwise support them. I'm always flabbergasted by how much of a "big deal" the President is in America. The PM is important, yeah, and he does make the "big decisions," but it's more about the platform than the individual himself; it's not like the PM personally has any more executive power than any other MP, just that the MPs he leads vote with him. Then I look at the US and it's like there's the President, then Congress, then the Senate, and they're all kinda disconnected, and there are governors, too. Confuses me! It confuses Americans too. A government full of high-profile no names is by design I think. They can get away with anything because they carry big sticks but no one really knows who they are. | ||
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
On July 19 2013 05:04 Shiori wrote: Haha, I guess that is true. Maybe that's why Canada largely ridicules our government/Prime Minister when they do something idiotic, even if we voted for them or otherwise support them. I'm always flabbergasted by how much of a "big deal" the President is in America. The PM is important, yeah, and he does make the "big decisions," but it's more about the platform than the individual himself; it's not like the PM personally has any more executive power than any other MP, just that the MPs he leads vote with him. Then I look at the US and it's like there's the President, then Congress, then the Senate, and they're all kinda disconnected, and there are governors, too. Confuses me! That is the point of our system. Its supposed to be disjointed and slow to move. Also, the point of the state-federal system is supposed to allow for local rule, under the (correct in my opinion) assumption that many of the problems that should be solved by government would occur on a local rather than nationwide level. | ||
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corumjhaelen
France6884 Posts
On July 19 2013 04:51 KwarK wrote: This is why you need a monarchy. We're all technically subjects to some nonsensical outmoded system which vaccinates us against all that bullshit because fuck swearing loyalty to some random guy who happened to be born to it. You'd not get brits pledging allegiance to the government and the flag. It's far easier to convince people they owe unthinking obedience to an ideal or a symbol than to some completely arbitrary person who farts like everyone else. An obviously flawed and largely ignored system breeds a natural wariness and suspicion to anyone claiming they deserve obedience. I'd like to disagree, but there is something about UK and personnal freedom I wish we would emulate more this side of the Channel. Alas, I hear it has worsened a bit in the last 12 years or so... | ||
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Eschaton
United States1245 Posts
On July 19 2013 04:59 sc2superfan101 wrote: I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. Yeah that just screams fascism... I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. That's the part that's always seemed fascist to me. As it stands now, the pledge doesn't do so well up against my fascism test: venerates the state: CHECK devotion to a leader: CHECK militarism: NOPE Take out the 'under god' bit, and we're doing much better although it still smells a little like Mussolini up in here: venerates the state: CHECK devotion to a leader: NOPE militarism: NOPE | ||
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sc2superfan101
3583 Posts
On July 19 2013 05:13 Eschaton wrote: As it stands now, the pledge doesn't do so well up against my fascism test: venerates the state: CHECK devotion to a leader: CHECK militarism: NOPE Venerate: Regard with great respect; revere. Yeah, venerating the state is so horrible. We should all despise our country... Devotion to a leader? Which leader? I really don't think you people have any idea what fascism is or entails so... I guess maybe that's it. On July 19 2013 05:01 Klondikebar wrote: But if you walk by a classroom while elementary school students are saying it, it's like...looking into a North Korean classroom. Yeah I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that you don't know anything about North Korea... at all. | ||
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KwarK
United States42573 Posts
Get them to pledge allegiance to the flag. Say the flag represents America and American values. Put the American dream and (economic) FREEDOM on there. Suddenly you have all the little children pledging not to challenge the political and economic system that transfers the fruits of their labours upwards to an oligarchic clique and being brainwashed (seriously, having an authority figure tell children to chant together about the virtues of something they have no knowledge of and pledge loyalty to it is brainwashing) into thinking that a peaceful political opinion is not okay. Just an example but the point is that the pledge is to a symbol that you cannot control and can be used against their interests. Liberty means no allegiance to anyone. | ||
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aksfjh
United States4853 Posts
On July 19 2013 04:59 sc2superfan101 wrote: I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. Yeah that just screams fascism... If those terms actually had some concrete meaning, sure. As of now, though, it's such an empty statement that can be applied to allies and against enemies. Granted, with such a disjointed political system, about the only time that empty statement is filled is for elections and posturing, not so much for unifying the nation. | ||
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